Guest guest Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 Thank you, Graham... may I attach a creative suggestion to this debate? Debates and discussions of differing views can be turned into a creative solution, so they are not a bad thing. Often times, it is the opinion or discomfort of more participants than simply the person who chooses to speak up, and so the open discussion can be used to improve this group rather than to simply see it as an arguement. So... Being new on the list, I must put in a vote of support for full disclosure of remedy ingredients, as this is a forum from which I do learn quite alot. I do see this as a forum of detailed, clinical discussion of presenting complaints, examination findings/differential diag, and specific plants and their extracts which have been found to be safe and effective (as well as discussions of adverse effects and drug interactions). This also includes safe and effective dosages. So, when we are directed to a website off list for retail use in replacement of a meaningful discussion, I do feel a bit cheated out of that practitioner's own clinical experiences. I simply cannot, after all the studies I endured, blindly follow someone's recipe without supporting rationale for each herb's role in the mix, cream or otherwise. Now, my suggestion comes in on " how " the formulations are disclosed, and that is in reference to their specific quantities, in order to find some common ground here. As you all know, there are countless products on the market that list their ingredients as a " proprietary blend " , listing the herbs/ingredients, but not their portion size (for lack of better words). If a practitioner on this site does not want to list the exact product portion sizes in their " own blends " , that is their choice (I gather from the explanation of the rules for the group)... but maybe we can simply list the herbs in the mix and the rationale for their inclusion. Is that fair to ask? We all have the books that list the safe dosage ranges, and if a practitioner doesn't want to list their preferred dosages, maybe others can chime into the conversation to discuss the quantities that they have found effective, and the questionning participant can make their own judgement call (??) Food for thought... Okay, off my soap-box... thanks for the floor. Tami B., BSc Phyt (Hons), MNIMH, AHG, CMT New Jersey, USA Advertising on this list > Hi All > > Before the spat between Henriette and Lorraine gets out of hand I'd better > step in and act as peacemaker :-) > > In the list rules it says that *limited* advertising is permitted in > response to a specific query, so in this case Lorraine is within the rules > in replying to a query and saying > > " I have a wonderful vaginal cream which is used mainly for menopausal > women but also in thrush and general irritation 'down there' I have used it > and continue to use it many times for my current patients. " > > Where she is going beyond the rules and where Henriette is right is that > Lorraine doesn't give any details as to the formulation of the cream so that > people can make up their own if they so desire, and also in giving price > details on list. > > Now I tend to be fairly relaxed on implementing list rules (after all I'm a > Leeds Utd supporter and I'm used to adversity) whereas Henriette tends to be > a bit stricter (it's all that flogging each other with birch twigs in the > snow - quick throw a bucket of water over me!) so my judgement is that > although Lorraine hasn't broken the letter of the list rules she is pushing > the envelope to its max. > > The other aspect of course is that as Lorraine runs a company that produces > herbal remedies she is in a position to reply to almost any query with " I > have a product " , so if recommending a specific product, whether your own or > someone else's make sure it's not some generic product available in every > health food shop. > > Anyway, as the scousers say " Caaaalm down " (not that Henriette will get that > culture specific reference) and go and have a swig of all that kava kava you > have left in stock and can't sell :-) > > Here's hoping the weather holds this evening and I can go on a bike ride > round Stanstead airport and Hatfield Forest. > > Only 6 weeks to the start of the football season! Sue Cobbold, if you are > still on the list, do you want to go double or quits, or just pay me the 6 > pints you owe me? > > Cheers > > Graham White B.Sc. (Herb. Med.), MNIMH. > Medical Herbalist > Bishop's Stortford > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > www.gcwhite.co.uk > gcwhite@... > > > > > List Owner > > > > Graham White, MNIMH > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 Good thinking Tami! Here here! Hayley x Tami Bronstein wrote: Thank you, Graham... may I attach a creative suggestion to this debate? Debates and discussions of differing views can be turned into a creative solution, so they are not a bad thing. Often times, it is the opinion or discomfort of more participants than simply the person who chooses to speak up, and so the open discussion can be used to improve this group rather than to simply see it as an arguement. So... Being new on the list, I must put in a vote of support for full disclosure of remedy ingredients, as this is a forum from which I do learn quite alot. I do see this as a forum of detailed, clinical discussion of presenting complaints, examination findings/differential diag, and specific plants and their extracts which have been found to be safe and effective (as well as discussions of adverse effects and drug interactions). This also includes safe and effective dosages. So, when we are directed to a website off list for retail use in replacement of a meaningful discussion, I do feel a bit cheated out of that practitioner's own clinical experiences. I simply cannot, after all the studies I endured, blindly follow someone's recipe without supporting rationale for each herb's role in the mix, cream or otherwise. Now, my suggestion comes in on " how " the formulations are disclosed, and that is in reference to their specific quantities, in order to find some common ground here. As you all know, there are countless products on the market that list their ingredients as a " proprietary blend " , listing the herbs/ingredients, but not their portion size (for lack of better words). If a practitioner on this site does not want to list the exact product portion sizes in their " own blends " , that is their choice (I gather from the explanation of the rules for the group)... but maybe we can simply list the herbs in the mix and the rationale for their inclusion. Is that fair to ask? We all have the books that list the safe dosage ranges, and if a practitioner doesn't want to list their preferred dosages, maybe others can chime into the conversation to discuss the quantities that they have found effective, and the questionning participant can make their own judgement call (??) Food for thought... Okay, off my soap-box... thanks for the floor. Tami B., BSc Phyt (Hons), MNIMH, AHG, CMT New Jersey, USA Advertising on this list > Hi All > > Before the spat between Henriette and Lorraine gets out of hand I'd better > step in and act as peacemaker :-) > > In the list rules it says that *limited* advertising is permitted in > response to a specific query, so in this case Lorraine is within the rules > in replying to a query and saying > > " I have a wonderful vaginal cream which is used mainly for menopausal > women but also in thrush and general irritation 'down there' I have used it > and continue to use it many times for my current patients. " > > Where she is going beyond the rules and where Henriette is right is that > Lorraine doesn't give any details as to the formulation of the cream so that > people can make up their own if they so desire, and also in giving price > details on list. > > Now I tend to be fairly relaxed on implementing list rules (after all I'm a > Leeds Utd supporter and I'm used to adversity) whereas Henriette tends to be > a bit stricter (it's all that flogging each other with birch twigs in the > snow - quick throw a bucket of water over me!) so my judgement is that > although Lorraine hasn't broken the letter of the list rules she is pushing > the envelope to its max. > > The other aspect of course is that as Lorraine runs a company that produces > herbal remedies she is in a position to reply to almost any query with " I > have a product " , so if recommending a specific product, whether your own or > someone else's make sure it's not some generic product available in every > health food shop. > > Anyway, as the scousers say " Caaaalm down " (not that Henriette will get that > culture specific reference) and go and have a swig of all that kava kava you > have left in stock and can't sell :-) > > Here's hoping the weather holds this evening and I can go on a bike ride > round Stanstead airport and Hatfield Forest. > > Only 6 weeks to the start of the football season! Sue Cobbold, if you are > still on the list, do you want to go double or quits, or just pay me the 6 > pints you owe me? > > Cheers > > Graham White B.Sc. (Herb. Med.), MNIMH. > Medical Herbalist > Bishop's Stortford > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > www.gcwhite.co.uk > gcwhite@... > > > > > List Owner > > > > Graham White, MNIMH > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2004 Report Share Posted July 3, 2004 Labelling law requires that the ingredient with the maximum amount has to be put first. ie if water is 60% of the product and this is the greates by volume then that goes first on the ingredint list on the label this makes food ingredient lists very intersting. Hope this helps ri Advertising on this list > > > > Hi All > > > > Before the spat between Henriette and Lorraine gets out of hand I'd better > > step in and act as peacemaker :-) > > > > In the list rules it says that *limited* advertising is permitted in > > response to a specific query, so in this case Lorraine is within the rules > > in replying to a query and saying > > > > " I have a wonderful vaginal cream which is used mainly for menopausal > > women but also in thrush and general irritation 'down there' I have used > it > > and continue to use it many times for my current patients. " > > > > Where she is going beyond the rules and where Henriette is right is that > > Lorraine doesn't give any details as to the formulation of the cream so > that > > people can make up their own if they so desire, and also in giving price > > details on list. > > > > Now I tend to be fairly relaxed on implementing list rules (after all I'm > a > > Leeds Utd supporter and I'm used to adversity) whereas Henriette tends to > be > > a bit stricter (it's all that flogging each other with birch twigs in the > > snow - quick throw a bucket of water over me!) so my judgement is that > > although Lorraine hasn't broken the letter of the list rules she is > pushing > > the envelope to its max. > > > > The other aspect of course is that as Lorraine runs a company that > produces > > herbal remedies she is in a position to reply to almost any query with " I > > have a product " , so if recommending a specific product, whether your own > or > > someone else's make sure it's not some generic product available in every > > health food shop. > > > > Anyway, as the scousers say " Caaaalm down " (not that Henriette will get > that > > culture specific reference) and go and have a swig of all that kava kava > you > > have left in stock and can't sell :-) > > > > Here's hoping the weather holds this evening and I can go on a bike ride > > round Stanstead airport and Hatfield Forest. > > > > Only 6 weeks to the start of the football season! Sue Cobbold, if you are > > still on the list, do you want to go double or quits, or just pay me the 6 > > pints you owe me? > > > > Cheers > > > > Graham White B.Sc. (Herb. Med.), MNIMH. > > Medical Herbalist > > Bishop's Stortford > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > www.gcwhite.co.uk > > gcwhite@... > > > > > > > > > > List Owner > > > > > > > > Graham White, MNIMH > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2004 Report Share Posted July 3, 2004 Labelling law requires that the ingredient with the maximum amount has to be put first. ie if water is 60% of the product and this is the greates by volume then that goes first on the ingredint list on the label this makes food ingredient lists very intersting. Hope this helps ri Advertising on this list > > > > Hi All > > > > Before the spat between Henriette and Lorraine gets out of hand I'd better > > step in and act as peacemaker :-) > > > > In the list rules it says that *limited* advertising is permitted in > > response to a specific query, so in this case Lorraine is within the rules > > in replying to a query and saying > > > > " I have a wonderful vaginal cream which is used mainly for menopausal > > women but also in thrush and general irritation 'down there' I have used > it > > and continue to use it many times for my current patients. " > > > > Where she is going beyond the rules and where Henriette is right is that > > Lorraine doesn't give any details as to the formulation of the cream so > that > > people can make up their own if they so desire, and also in giving price > > details on list. > > > > Now I tend to be fairly relaxed on implementing list rules (after all I'm > a > > Leeds Utd supporter and I'm used to adversity) whereas Henriette tends to > be > > a bit stricter (it's all that flogging each other with birch twigs in the > > snow - quick throw a bucket of water over me!) so my judgement is that > > although Lorraine hasn't broken the letter of the list rules she is > pushing > > the envelope to its max. > > > > The other aspect of course is that as Lorraine runs a company that > produces > > herbal remedies she is in a position to reply to almost any query with " I > > have a product " , so if recommending a specific product, whether your own > or > > someone else's make sure it's not some generic product available in every > > health food shop. > > > > Anyway, as the scousers say " Caaaalm down " (not that Henriette will get > that > > culture specific reference) and go and have a swig of all that kava kava > you > > have left in stock and can't sell :-) > > > > Here's hoping the weather holds this evening and I can go on a bike ride > > round Stanstead airport and Hatfield Forest. > > > > Only 6 weeks to the start of the football season! Sue Cobbold, if you are > > still on the list, do you want to go double or quits, or just pay me the 6 > > pints you owe me? > > > > Cheers > > > > Graham White B.Sc. (Herb. Med.), MNIMH. > > Medical Herbalist > > Bishop's Stortford > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > www.gcwhite.co.uk > > gcwhite@... > > > > > > > > > > List Owner > > > > > > > > Graham White, MNIMH > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2004 Report Share Posted July 26, 2004 Excellent suggestion Tami, it's just like Alice in Bloody Wonderland (Blunderland) otherwise Anne V > >Reply-To: ukherbal-list >To: ukherbal-list >Subject: Re: Suggestion to All >Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 17:49:13 +0100 (BST) > >Good thinking Tami! Here here! >Hayley x > >Tami Bronstein wrote: >Thank you, Graham... may I attach a creative suggestion to this debate? >Debates and discussions of differing views can be turned into a creative >solution, so they are not a bad thing. Often times, it is the opinion or >discomfort of more participants than simply the person who chooses to speak >up, and so the open discussion can be used to improve this group rather >than >to simply see it as an arguement. So... > >Being new on the list, I must put in a vote of support for full disclosure >of remedy ingredients, as this is a forum from which I do learn quite alot. >I do see this as a forum of detailed, clinical discussion of presenting >complaints, examination findings/differential diag, and specific plants and >their extracts which have been found to be safe and effective (as well as >discussions of adverse effects and drug interactions). This also includes >safe and effective dosages. So, when we are directed to a website off list >for retail use in replacement of a meaningful discussion, I do feel a bit >cheated out of that practitioner's own clinical experiences. I simply >cannot, after all the studies I endured, blindly follow someone's recipe >without supporting rationale for each herb's role in the mix, cream or >otherwise. Now, my suggestion comes in on " how " the formulations are >disclosed, and that is in reference to their specific quantities, in order >to find some common ground here. As you all know, there are countless >products on the market that list their ingredients as a " proprietary >blend " , >listing the herbs/ingredients, but not their portion size (for lack of >better words). If a practitioner on this site does not want to list the >exact product portion sizes in their " own blends " , that is their choice (I >gather from the explanation of the rules for the group)... but maybe we can >simply list the herbs in the mix and the rationale for their inclusion. Is >that fair to ask? > >We all have the books that list the safe dosage ranges, and if a >practitioner doesn't want to list their preferred dosages, maybe others can >chime into the conversation to discuss the quantities that they have found >effective, and the questionning participant can make their own judgement >call (??) > >Food for thought... > >Okay, off my soap-box... thanks for the floor. >Tami B., BSc Phyt (Hons), MNIMH, AHG, CMT >New Jersey, USA > > > > Advertising on this list > > > > Hi All > > > > Before the spat between Henriette and Lorraine gets out of hand I'd >better > > step in and act as peacemaker :-) > > > > In the list rules it says that *limited* advertising is permitted in > > response to a specific query, so in this case Lorraine is within the >rules > > in replying to a query and saying > > > > " I have a wonderful vaginal cream which is used mainly for menopausal > > women but also in thrush and general irritation 'down there' I have used >it > > and continue to use it many times for my current patients. " > > > > Where she is going beyond the rules and where Henriette is right is that > > Lorraine doesn't give any details as to the formulation of the cream so >that > > people can make up their own if they so desire, and also in giving price > > details on list. > > > > Now I tend to be fairly relaxed on implementing list rules (after all >I'm >a > > Leeds Utd supporter and I'm used to adversity) whereas Henriette tends >to >be > > a bit stricter (it's all that flogging each other with birch twigs in >the > > snow - quick throw a bucket of water over me!) so my judgement is that > > although Lorraine hasn't broken the letter of the list rules she is >pushing > > the envelope to its max. > > > > The other aspect of course is that as Lorraine runs a company that >produces > > herbal remedies she is in a position to reply to almost any query with > " I > > have a product " , so if recommending a specific product, whether your own >or > > someone else's make sure it's not some generic product available in >every > > health food shop. > > > > Anyway, as the scousers say " Caaaalm down " (not that Henriette will get >that > > culture specific reference) and go and have a swig of all that kava kava >you > > have left in stock and can't sell :-) > > > > Here's hoping the weather holds this evening and I can go on a bike ride > > round Stanstead airport and Hatfield Forest. > > > > Only 6 weeks to the start of the football season! Sue Cobbold, if you >are > > still on the list, do you want to go double or quits, or just pay me the >6 > > pints you owe me? > > > > Cheers > > > > Graham White B.Sc. (Herb. Med.), MNIMH. > > Medical Herbalist > > Bishop's Stortford > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > www.gcwhite.co.uk > > gcwhite@... > > > > > > > > > > List Owner > > > > > > > > Graham White, MNIMH > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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