Guest guest Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 Hi Eirwen I personally never use oestrogenic herbs after a hormone-dependant tumour but remember a conversation with Alison Denham where she assured me that that was exactly the thing to do, as they would block oestrogen receptors and I'm sure that's valid. however, as tamoxifen does precisely that they would have no effect anyway. so as long as she's on tamoxifen you won't be doing any damage, just wasting herbs inappropriately. i always use leonurus in the prescription ,usually with good effect but would be extremely worried at the prospect of using belladonna for flushes - sledgehammers and nuts (well, ovaries). i reserve such plants for emergencies. is she actually sweating or just overheating? sweating cools. remember asclepias can induce sweating where it ought to be happenning and isn't. what are her kidneys doing? is she drinking enough? check that she isn't eg taking freezing cold showers like a lot of women do - they make flushes much worse by stimulating the circulation where you want to calm it. sitting with the feet in a bucket of tepid water can be far more effective. and no curries! on the subject of phyto oestrogens, can anyone explain to me why soya is contraindicated in hypothyroid? i've never actually seen any written references to this but it seems to be in the consciousness. the best i can come up with is the phyto oestrogen idea as hypothyroid > oestrogen overload *in premenopausal women*. what about the rest of us, then? and again, surely it would help in those women by blocking receptors?... love, nnexx ==================================================== nne Last BA MNIMH Consultant Medical Herbalist Monmouth Herbal Clinic Tel: 01600 719497 www.mariannelast.co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 Hi, Although I have never used Atropa in this way, I seem to remember it being used to dry up bad sweats in the menopause (rather than flushes). I think the dose was quite low (2ml (herba) /week???) I find a mix of borage verbena and carduus works a treat for flushes, all of which I would consider safe with tamoxifen..... I seem to recall there being some interesting debate in the archives about the use of oestrogenic herbs in cases like this. May be worth a search - I think the 'jury was out' on wether to avoid them or use them. What about Trifolium specifically indicated in breast cancer? Jean re: hot flushes > I remember Acott in a lecture about Materia Medica, > mentioning the use of Atropa for intractable hot flashes. Don't > recall dosage or specific circumstances ( could look it up if need > be) and this info may not even be applicable to the patient > mentioned but there you go... > > BTW- Still not receiving the list directly via email and would like > to. Graham- have you returned from vacation yet?? > Thanks- > MNIMH AHG > VT USA > > > > > List Owner > > > > Graham White, MNIMH > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 Chemo or surgical related hot flashes are generally a lot more intense than regular menopause. I have found that chemo induced hot flashes respond best to cimicifuga, but in rather large doses - at least initially. That goes for men as well as women. SJW is not a good idea with tamoxifen because CYP 3A4 clears the active tamoxifen metabolite which is produced from tamoxifen which is a prodrug by CYP 2D6. FWIW, Red clover in its " standardized " form is a high isoflavone preparation mostly derived from chickpeas and other legumes, it has little to do with trifolium flowers the traditional remedy. These isoflavones can however be added to chemo induced hot flash formula and are also aromatase inhibiting, which may be additionally relevant regards peripheral estrogen formation. jonathan > > Reply-To: ukherbal-list > Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:39:46 +0100 > To: <ukherbal-list > > Subject: Re: re: hot flushes > > Hi, > Although I have never used Atropa in this way, I seem to remember it being > used to dry up bad sweats in the menopause (rather than flushes). I think > the dose was quite low (2ml (herba) /week???) > > I find a mix of borage verbena and carduus works a treat for flushes, all of > which I would consider safe with tamoxifen..... > > I seem to recall there being some interesting debate in the archives about > the use of oestrogenic herbs in cases like this. May be worth a search - I > think the 'jury was out' on wether to avoid them or use them. > > What about Trifolium specifically indicated in breast cancer? > > Jean > > re: hot flushes > > >> I remember Acott in a lecture about Materia Medica, >> mentioning the use of Atropa for intractable hot flashes. Don't >> recall dosage or specific circumstances ( could look it up if need >> be) and this info may not even be applicable to the patient >> mentioned but there you go... >> >> BTW- Still not receiving the list directly via email and would like >> to. Graham- have you returned from vacation yet?? >> Thanks- >> MNIMH AHG >> VT USA >> >> >> >> >> List Owner >> >> >> >> Graham White, MNIMH >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 Men.....Please clarify. An/A Herbalist p.s....SJW....FWIW...what we talking about??? p.p.s. 'little to do with red clover'...same chemicals a.i. (i.e., aint it). p.p.p.s. I'm lost. p.p.p.p.s. smile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 Stuart, Androgen ablation therapy (for hormone sensitive prostate cancer) causes most patients to experience fairly severe hot flashes. SJW = St 's Wort FWIW = for what its worth Red clover flowers - have almost no isoflavone content. Red clover leaves have more, but a lot less than beans like soy. The flowers are " official " and the traditional alterative remedy Promensil, and related commercial standardized europhytopharmaceutical products sold as " red clover " are in fact concentrated isoflavone preps derived from assorted legumes, mostly chickpea/garbanzo and soya bean. j > > Reply-To: ukherbal-list > Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:15:33 +0100 > To: <ukherbal-list > > Subject: Re: re: hot flushes > > > Men.....Please clarify. > An/A Herbalist > > p.s....SJW....FWIW...what we talking about??? > > p.p.s. 'little to do with red clover'...same chemicals a.i. (i.e., aint it). > > > p.p.p.s. I'm lost. > > p.p.p.p.s. smile > > > > > > List Owner > > > > Graham White, MNIMH > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 Dear nne, I was in the process of looking something up and opened your e-mail with the other hand so to speak, multitasking and there at the top of the page that I am reading is the following " The phytosterols in soy beans and soy products inhibit thyroid function and therefore overall metabolism, they are implicated in breast cancer and are high in anti-trysin, the factor which inhibits the digestion of protein consumed in the meal. They are also associated with brain shrinkage. Soy is also high in phytates which bind zinc, calcium and iron. Ref. Fallon. S. Nourishing Traditions p44, 185, 468. Hope this is useful Allshorn RE: re: hot flushes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 So, ... Are you saying that we should or should NOT recommend soya products for hot flashes/flushes in the diet, or rather use standardized extracts of Trifolium? From one recent contribution, it seems that soy has more negative aspects than positive... and is becoming quite confusing to me now. Are there any standards or " rules of thumb " on soy use? I have a friend who is breast feeding her 5 month old, and supplements with soy formula. Will this (according to the recent chat group entry on soy) then compete with protein absorption and have detrimental effects on the metabolism of mother and baby? Is it truly shown to increase risks of breast cancer? Shouldn't phytoestrogens have a competitive binding relationship with other estrogens to receptor sites, thus producing a " weaker " estrogenic response than xenoestrogens/synthetic estrogens/excess natural estrogens?? All feedback is welcome, Jon and Others... Tami NJ USA re: hot flushes > > > > > >> I remember Acott in a lecture about Materia Medica, > >> mentioning the use of Atropa for intractable hot flashes. Don't > >> recall dosage or specific circumstances ( could look it up if need > >> be) and this info may not even be applicable to the patient > >> mentioned but there you go... > >> > >> BTW- Still not receiving the list directly via email and would like > >> to. Graham- have you returned from vacation yet?? > >> Thanks- > >> MNIMH AHG > >> VT USA > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> List Owner > >> > >> > >> > >> Graham White, MNIMH > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 Hi Tami, I am afraid I Don't know if I can say anything very helpful. The soy debate is huge. Unfortunately there is a lot of dogma and big industry bucks fuelling it, and from that point of view I am right behind Sally Fallon who has made it a bit of a personal crusade to highlight some of the problems. There are in fact very few hard and fast recommendations backed by evidence that it is possible to make without dispute. That means , as usual, falling back on traditional guidelines. . Two key factors always contextualise the argument - 1. The preparation. 2. The patient. Regards preparations, my 2 cents is pretty much the Fallon position...that most soy products, including tofu, and especially soy milk, are highly processed industrial foods, they are allergenic, and should be avoided in general. GMO is also a problem, especially in this country - thanks to Monsanto. Phytates and antihyroid issues are certainly considerations, but secondary to the fact that soy products are predominantly a GMO industrial artificial food, not much different from spray -on at the end of the day. The way to go with soy foods is traditional preparations ie organic fermented, miso, tempeh, tamari etc, much as OG yogurt/kefir is preferable to milk. And in small amounts. I would never recommend feeding an infant soy, until way past weaning, and then introduce it like other known allergens such as wheat and dairy, ie very slowly in minute amounts to test the water. Soy infant formula is a product from the minds of mad scientists employed by the processed food industry which is pretty much the same as big pharma and did not come from human mothers, and I would advise your friend to stop it without delay - just my opinion:) I never use isoflavone rich supplements outside of cancer treatments. Regular hot flashes are usually pretty susceptible to teas of hops/yarrow/hawthorn. Leonurus etc. With reproductive cancers you have to account for whether the patient was pre or post menopausal at diagnosis, the receptor status, the treatment they have had, and propose to have, and their future goals. I personally only use soy /standardized red clover ( high isoflavone eg promensil) in post menopausal women undergoing adjuvant therapy with tamoxifen (or aromatase inhibitors femara, arimidex etc), and then because it appears to synergise with these agents in reducing peripheral estrogen formation. In these cases I use soy in the form of concentrated isoflavone dietary supplements, not dietary intake. I would not use it for hot flashes (cimicfuga works), and would not use it in premenopausal breast cancer. I do use red clover flowers a lot in cancer , especially breast cancer, however as far as I am concerned this has nothing to do with phyto-estrogenic effects of isoflavones but is a long standing traditional alterative element in approaching cancer challenges with herbal medicine. In terms of chemo-prevention, small amounts of fermented OG soy are fine , but prevention of breast cancer is a another huge subject, and certainly cannot be reduced to " eat more soy " or not. Taking 200 micrograms of selenium everyday would be a lot better preventative measure than eating soyburgers. Many of the " phytoestrogenic " molecules have anticancer effects that are nothing to do with whether they bind weakly to alpha or beta estrogen receptors, eg beta sitosterol. The cancer challenge is a very specific context, and often in one in which " all bets are off " , where herbs and micronutrients can often be used in specific ways that are not appropriate to other contexts. Anyway - don't know if that clarifies anything or further muddies the waters. jonathan > > Reply-To: ukherbal-list > Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:26:14 -0400 > To: <ukherbal-list > > Subject: Re: re: hot flushes > > So, ... > Are you saying that we should or should NOT recommend soya products for hot > flashes/flushes in the diet, or rather use standardized extracts of > Trifolium? From one recent contribution, it seems that soy has more > negative aspects than positive... and is becoming quite confusing to me now. > Are there any standards or " rules of thumb " on soy use? I have a friend who > is breast feeding her 5 month old, and supplements with soy formula. Will > this (according to the recent chat group entry on soy) then compete with > protein absorption and have detrimental effects on the metabolism of mother > and baby? Is it truly shown to increase risks of breast cancer? Shouldn't > phytoestrogens have a competitive binding relationship with other estrogens > to receptor sites, thus producing a " weaker " estrogenic response than > xenoestrogens/synthetic estrogens/excess natural estrogens?? > All feedback is welcome, Jon and Others... > Tami > NJ USA > re: hot flushes >>> >>> >>>> I remember Acott in a lecture about Materia Medica, >>>> mentioning the use of Atropa for intractable hot flashes. Don't >>>> recall dosage or specific circumstances ( could look it up if need >>>> be) and this info may not even be applicable to the patient >>>> mentioned but there you go... >>>> >>>> BTW- Still not receiving the list directly via email and would like >>>> to. Graham- have you returned from vacation yet?? >>>> Thanks- >>>> MNIMH AHG >>>> VT USA >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> List Owner >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Graham White, MNIMH >>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 Thanks , I was dreading having to expand further on the earlier comment on soy products. All I can add is that the experience of the people I am working with is very much along the lines you outline and soy, except in its very traditional usages is not good news. Where it has been introduced to the Gerson patients I've worked with there has been visible growth of tumor tissue so clinical experience there has not been good. My son who lives in South Korea has also commented on how different traditional products are to the ones we can obtain in the west. Along those lines the diet, both in what is eaten and also how much also seems to be key to low levels of breast cancer in these countries, not just the use of Soya. No scientific papers to back up his comment and only case studies from the doctors but I have to admit I prefer that to alternative sources mentioned in your first paragraph because its first hand experience rather than speculative laboratory work. Allshorn Re: re: hot flushes Hi Tami, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Hi, Just a thought - would Stellaria act to stop hut flushes? I have used it for hot rashes with good result (as a refrigerant. Stina citerar nne Last : > > Hi Eirwen > I personally never use oestrogenic herbs after a hormone-dependant tumour > but remember a conversation with Alison Denham where she assured me that > that was exactly the thing to do, as they would block oestrogen receptors > and I'm sure that's valid. however, as tamoxifen does precisely that they > would have no effect anyway. so as long as she's on tamoxifen you won't be > doing any damage, just wasting herbs inappropriately. i always use leonurus > in the prescription ,usually with good effect but would be extremely > worried > at the prospect of using belladonna for flushes - sledgehammers and nuts > (well, ovaries). i reserve such plants for emergencies. > is she actually sweating or just overheating? sweating cools. remember > asclepias can induce sweating where it ought to be happenning and isn't. > what are her kidneys doing? is she drinking enough? check that she isn't > eg > taking freezing cold showers like a lot of women do - they make flushes > much > worse by stimulating the circulation where you want to calm it. sitting > with > the feet in a bucket of tepid water can be far more effective. and no > curries! > > on the subject of phyto oestrogens, can anyone explain to me why soya is > contraindicated in hypothyroid? i've never actually seen any written > references to this but it seems to be in the consciousness. the best i can > come up with is the phyto oestrogen idea as hypothyroid > oestrogen > overload > *in premenopausal women*. what about the rest of us, then? and again, > surely it would help in those women by blocking receptors?... > love, nnexx > > > ==================================================== > nne Last BA MNIMH > Consultant Medical Herbalist > Monmouth Herbal Clinic > Tel: 01600 719497 > www.mariannelast.co.uk > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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