Intimacy

[Guest guest]

Hi Everyone,

Ray, I just finished reading your email " my condition is affecting her and

our relationship " that is also happening in my marriage. My husband Ren has

never complained, never asked, and I know it's as difficult for him as it is

for me. Like you, there are times I cannot stand to be touched, we have

even gone to single beds in the same bedroom for that reason, and as often

as possible we cuddle together in one or the other of the beds, one thing in

favor of single beds is that when we do sleep together you cuddle up nice

and close simply so neither one falls out of bed ).

" Pain is a pretty good deterrent to intimacy. " So is the pain medication I

must take. I am on morphine and if I want any relieve I must take it

consistently, the pain uses every bit of it up and in 5 yrs I have yet to

experience a " high " from having taken it. It does something to my nerve

endings though, this is hard to talk about, and I'm not sure if it is

appropriate to be discussing it here on the list but maybe someone who is

also on morphine can help. I haven't even talked to my doctor about it.

Intimacy for Ren and I has really become difficult, there is no longer any

spontaneity, it all has to be orchestrated. If I want to experience it to

the fullest I must go off the morphine for 24 hrs, if I don't no matter what

we do or how hard we try I am felt hanging, an orgasm and sexual release is

impossible. I end up in tears, and Ren who has in the 32 yrs we have been

married has always put my pleasure ahead of his is left feeling helpless.

Ren never asks, he quietly waits for me. When the need for that special

closeness becomes overwhelming I stop the morphine and endure the pain, and

Ren injects the morphine immediately afterwards. Is there a better way? I

love him so very much.

Marg )

mesenteric vascular insufficiency, chronic pancreatitis, severe

malabsorption, paralytic ilius, non eater, g-tube

doll@...

[Guest guest]

Mike,

You might think about ordering the info Peggy was talking about, the one on

intimacy and disabilities.

Oy, Yeah, for those of you who are uncomfortable with this topic, I quess you

can just go ahead and hit your delete button, just like the smut adds that

somehow frequently show up on my e-mail!

Have you considered consulting a therapist for this problem. It seems that you

have such a great relationship otherwise, that it would really be a shame to let

this interfere with your life to the point of causing so much discomfort, and

from what you have shared, it is VERY uncomfortable for you to face. Is this the

old male ego talking or something much deeper?. Or is it something not really

that big of a problem that you have allowed to grow in your mind, taking control

with all sort of negative feelings and thoughts causing you to loose your

perspection of the situation. Am I making any sense here? I am having a hard

time with my wording tonight.

Without getting too graphic or personal here, it is certainly possible for a man

to pleasure a woman even if he is unable to get his own plumbing to work---get

my drift? Take for instance a man who is paralyzed. There are ways for couple in

this situation to have sex, albeit not the conventional way. And in some

instances it is even possible for the woman to become impregnated. Now in the

worst case scenario, it could mean having to resort to penile implants or

something similar. In the case of chronically sick people, I do not think Viagra

is a safe alternative. (A distant cousin who has severe diabetes and heart

disease took some without his doctors knowledge and he almost died.) Are you

more concerned about your inability to be satisfied or your wife's? Only you can

answer these questions honestly for yourself, but one thing is for sure, running

away from the issue will not solve anything and will only make matters worse. Do

yourself and your wife a favor and tackle this one head on. It is only a problem

if you allow it to take control over you and your relationship. If possible, try

to step back and look at this from a different perspective, as if it were

happening to someone else anddd try to imagine what you might say that would

help that person. Come up with some problem solving techniques instead of

allowing the emotions lead you down a path of destruction.

Did not mean to get preachy. Just hate to see people suffering. I have been

through a good bit of counseling myself. Some good and some very bad, but I

learned a lot from the good ones, so much so that now I only have to think " Now

what would she say to me in this situation or what would she have me do? " . It

takes work to be in any relationship and they all have problems at one time or

another, so my advice from my owm experiences would be to get to work! You are

both worth it.

Good luck,

Vickie

Mike R Courteau wrote:

> Hi Margaret;

>

> If I may be so bold, I'd like to say a thing or two.

>

> What you describe is something I am deeply familiar with. I doubt I would be

> very wrong if I said that just about any strong pain killer will produce the

> effects you describe. When I was on high doses of Percocet and then

> Morphine, people would ask me how I felt. They would often point out the

> stuff was obviously working as I appeared to be pain-free. What they didn't

> understand is that I was never pain-free. I described the feeling as a

> different state of awareness. By this I mean that I still felt all the pain

> and discomfort, I just didn't give a damn. Given enough pain, I don't think

> you can ever be pain-free. You just care more or less about it. In my case I

> didn't care. I did however feel the added strain I would sometimes but

> myself under if I forgot to take my meds on time and boy, did it hurt. The

> medication relieved or diminished the sense of " feel " both physically and

> mentally, including the drive and feel for intimacy.

>

> and I have been married 24 years this year. We have a very open

> marriage. We talk a lot and confide in each other. We have never had an

> argument. Never. There have been a couple times when one or the other would

> walk away to give a problem time to breath but we have never had a

> face-to-face argument. It's always been as if we were two halves of

> something and we needed to find one another to be complete. As trite as this

> may sound, it's the truth.

>

> The last time we were intimate was over 10 years ago. The last time, my back

> went into such convulsions I ended up in bed for over a week. It was the

> only time that my good doctor actually agreed to a week's worth of anything

> stronger than what I usually take. Thinking back now on our time together

> before things took a turn for the worst, she must miss the intimacy very

> much but she never talks about it.

>

> I also love my wife very much but I find I can't really approach the subject

> anymore. It feels too much like a failure. Sometimes, watching TV or in a

> group of friends, someone will say something like " someone got " it " last

> night " or words to that effect and we invariably look at each other but not

> a word is said. If I had to name one thing that really hurts me more than

> anything, it would be the inability to even be able to talk about it. Every

> time the word sex is mentioned in a context of intimacy, I feel like

> crawling under a rock.

>

> One of the normal side effects of morphine and all other opiates for that

> matter (as well as alcohol), is a reduced sex drive. That is a documented

> fact. Under other normal circumstances, I can usually deal with known side

> effects. For example, opiates have a tendency to cause constipation. I can

> talk about that. Under certain conditions, they cause memory loss. I can

> talk about that too. I'm now at the point where accompanies me just

> about everywhere I go because I " forget " where I am; like driving down the

> highway and suddenly experiencing panic because I have no idea where I am or

> where I'm going. I miss freeway exits I've known for years and take wrong

> turns. I accept that and can talk about it. Not sex.

>

> TV has evolved a lot in the last 20 years ( I said evolved, not necessarily

> gotten better) and as a society, certain things are now allowed on public

> airways which at one time were considered solely the realm of the bedroom.

> That never really bothered me. Now, I find that as soon as a show or movie

> gets a little " steamy " , I just walk away rather than stay in the same room

> with . It's different if she's not there. Then I can watch. When she's

> there, I feel such a sense of failure, I can't handle it. I make a conscious

> effort to stay away from any such shows or movies in the same way you keep

> your fingers away from a flame.

>

> Is there a solution other than what you are doing? I don't know. I try to

> compensate for my inability by being more attentive to her needs in the work

> that she does (she is heavily involved with the Humane Society and other

> non-profit community activities) by taking the time to listen to her and

> offering my services such as writing computer programs for her that help her

> and her groups do the things they want to do. I listen to her plans for the

> garden and look at the many plants she's working on (that's the green leafy

> things that I'm told need watering once in a while when she's away!).It's

> not a replacement for my failure to be intimate but it helps me cope. You

> see, it only hurts when you think about it. You can only think of so many

> things at a time and talking about geraniums, peas, carrots and radishes

> doesn't leave much room for thinking about sex at the same time.

>

> I'm very sorry to say that I have no golden answer for you. I think we all

> here realize by now that there are no magic pills for what ails us, but if

> it's even a small comfort to you, rest assured, you're not alone. There is a

> bond that is formed between people who have something in common. We share

> something others often don't even understand. What we experience affects

> every part of our being; our mind, our body in all it's parts and functions

> (even stupid things like not being able to sneeze without hanging on to a

> table or counter top for me), in some even their faith. As I've stated in a

> previous post, I'm not the religious type but I do admire someone who has

> what I consider blind faith in the intangible and I see it as a terrible

> tragedy to lose something like that. It must be like losing the ability to

> dream, to have hope for the future.

>

> Whoa! that was a dark cloud! I have to start thinking about something else

> before everybody gets depressed!

>

> It's weird to re-read what I just typed. I've actually never talked about

> this to anyone. There is a little box inside my head with all the things I

> never mention or share. Now a little piece got out. I must admit it gives me

> a measure of comfort. I just realized for the first time that I'm not alone

> either and it's kind of a relief. I must admit the anonymity of the internet

> helps. I don't think I could have a face to face conversation about this. I

> started this message with a view to comfort you but now I owe you some

> thanks. Thank you.

>

> If others are uncomfortable with the subject of intimacy, please let us know

> and we can take this off the list although in my case I think I've exhausted

> my thoughts on the matter. I'm still here though for anyone who feels the

> need to bounce ideas of someone else.

>

> Have a good day Margaret and thanks again.

>

> Mike

>

> > Intimacy

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Hi Everyone,

> >

> > Ray, I just finished reading your email " my condition is affecting her and

>

> snip snip

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Vickie;

Thanks for the comforting thoughts. Therapy I'm not ready to go through

again. I've been through it before a few times mostly because it was what I

was expected to do. I went through quite a few years where I had to " prove "

my pain to employers, insurance companies and such. In fact in 24 years of

trying to cope with this, there have really only been 3 medical

professionals that have taken " the stand " so to speak and state that the

pain was real. One was my neuro-surgeon, another was a surgeon who practiced

her aim on my spine with series of 20 to 30 cortisone injections at a time,

and finally my present doctor.

I have pretty well lost faith in the ability of the others. The therapists I

saw were invariably young men, unmarried, no children, driving fancy cars,

1.75 dogs, 1 condo, 2 1/2 baths etc. They all seemed like cardboard

cut-outs. I'd say something and they would look in their books to find the

" true " meaning of my words it seemed. One thing they all had in common was a

gold Rolex to see how long they could afford to be with me. All together a

bad experience.

Although intimacy does bring out sad feelings, I try not to dwell on it. I

don't think does either. You are also right when you mention ego. Of

course it has a part to play in this. That's the part that hurts. I

personally don't miss the sex. I don't know why, I just don't. I guess it's

part of my personality. I'm an analyzer. I break things down in little

pieces and get to work on each piece. Sometimes some pieces get left out. I

broke down the components of our marriage long ago and realized quickly that

there are many parts to a relationship. We have so many other things in

common that if we set out to do everything to please each other every day,

we wouldn't have time left for sex anyway!

Anyway, here I am 4:00 am. Still haven't slept. Looks like my body clock is

out of synch again. The headphones are on, the BeeGees are doing their best

to keep me entertained and doing a good job of it. The heat, the pain and

the damn Elavil do that to me on a regular basis. Every so often I have to

spend a few nights up in a row and bring myself to the point of complete

exhaustion before things reset themselves. Sometimes it takes a full week. I

wish it had waited a bit as we're expecting company tomorrow, scratch that,

today not tomorrow. I think I'll add a few goodies to 's database for

few hours until she gets up.

As for you getting " preachy " , we've all earned the right to be. We're

masters in the subject at hand!

Mike

> Re: Intimacy

>

>

>

>

> Mike,

> You might think about ordering the info Peggy was talking about,

> the one on

> intimacy and disabilities.

[Guest guest]

Mike, and others,

This is probably my last post for a while...until I get back...but just had

to respond to this chain of posts.

I, too , have grown weary of the " therapy " process. I've been in therapy of

one sort or another (personal, family, etc.) since resigning from my

pastorate two years ago. At first it was helpful. I needed to talk and

work through my feelings of resigning and accepting the fact that my Reiters

Syndrome was a major cause in my decision to do so. Some of the family

therapy was needed to work through family issues, both those surrounding my

disease and other things. But there comes a point where the thought of one

more session with the counselor is so revolting it makes me literally

nauseaous. I don't have the negative view of all counselors that you do,

but I have met some doozies along the way!

You also refer to the fact that many medical professionals have doubted the

reality of your pain. Like you would " create " this agony on your own. Not!

I've had that same reaction from doctors when I was younger, before I got an

appropriate diagnosis and treatment. They used to tell me I had " growing

pains " as a teen and a young adult. I couldn't understand why nobody else

was complaining about growing if it hurt this bad. Nobody else seemed to

have swollen knees, tender to to the touch joints, swollen hands, etc. I

guess, I was just imaginning those things. NOT! But that was another

time...and definitely another reality.

The last two years have been extremely difficult as the Reiters Syndrome has

begun to affect my life more than ever before, including my relationship

with my wife. We will work through these issues, especially the ones having

to do with intimacy, because we love each other and don't want to give up

that aspect of our relationship. Yes, as someone else has posted, I can

continue to give her pleasure, even if I am unable to receive pleasure, and

we have done that, but it is not the way we want to live permanently. I'll

be trying a new treatment soon and hope that it gives some relief from the

inflammation, and pain.

We don't like to talk about matters like these, but for me the discomfort

comes during the intimacy when my wife touches a painful joint or my right

hip, already inflamed, decides its time to " cry out " in pain. I never could

make love when the kids were crying and I could hear it. Now I can't make

love when the pain is crying out. It is the kind of frustration I try to

avoid, but that is not good for my wife. As a woman she interprets it to

mean that I no longer find her attractive or desireable, even though, as a

doctor, she knows that isn't true for us.

As to staying up to all hours of the night...or day...and unable to sleep,

been there, done that. Pain and discomfort are wonderful deterrents to

sleep! But that also interrupts time alone with my wife. Sometimes I go to

bed with her, wait until she is asleep, and then get back up. I was loading

the dishwasher at 2:30 AM this morning because I was in so much discomfort.

Stayed up about a half-hour and then went back to bed after checking e-mail.

Hope you have a good day with the company Mike. Try to stay awake!

Ray in Virginia

[Guest guest]

> Sometimes I go to

> bed with her, wait until she is asleep, and then get back up. I

> was loading

> the dishwasher at 2:30 AM this morning because I was in so much

> discomfort.

What a cop out ! Come on Ray, admit it, you have a disk fetish, don't you ?

Don't try to hide your bad habits from us, we know better ! We can see right

through you !

See you when you get back.

Mike

[Guest guest]

here..operating out of Mij's home right now.....Margaret...do you have

lumbar damage....does your vascular insufficiency affect the flow of your that

region?? I know this is hard..no pun intended to talk about....but I have found

with my lumbar damage...that the pressure has to be adjusted....depending upon

whether I am oversensitive..under..or numb...putting your self through 24 hours

of abstenance of morphine is not a wise thing to do...it may not be the

morphine...please discuss this with your doc..one of your other meds..might be

affecting you..and removing the morphine lessens the affect ....that it has on

one of the other meds...if you are titrated properly...and feel relatively pain

free..I would ask if you feel sleepy or drowsy after taking your

morphine...sexuality is a very large and important part of all of our

lives..even more with us affected with illnesses...we need the extra

intimacy....the extra touch of life..the joy that it brings....to us all....I

know that it is difficult to discuss this with your doc...if not..maybe with

your pharmacist...why are you on a feeder tube hon???

I am at mij's...so you can post privately...or to the list...this is an issue

that affects us all very deeply...but sometimes knowing that others have the

same problems..make us feel less lonely...I use to feel like I failure...are you

on premarin...if you are past menopause? This might be an option...it might just

be a feeling of a lack of sexuality..HRT..hormone replacement therapy..changed

my whole life......in love...and in making love...

My prayers are with you...and may the Goddess Bless you...all..

hugs..

Margaret Doll wrote:

>

>

> Hi Everyone,

>

> Ray, I just finished reading your email " my condition is affecting her and

> our relationship " that is also happening in my marriage. My husband Ren has

> never complained, never asked, and I know it's as difficult for him as it is

> for me. Like you, there are times I cannot stand to be touched, we have

> even gone to single beds in the same bedroom for that reason, and as often

> as possible we cuddle together in one or the other of the beds, one thing in

> favor of single beds is that when we do sleep together you cuddle up nice

> and close simply so neither one falls out of bed ).

>

> " Pain is a pretty good deterrent to intimacy. " So is the pain medication I

> must take. I am on morphine and if I want any relieve I must take it

> consistently, the pain uses every bit of it up and in 5 yrs I have yet to

> experience a " high " from having taken it. It does something to my nerve

> endings though, this is hard to talk about, and I'm not sure if it is

> appropriate to be discussing it here on the list but maybe someone who is

> also on morphine can help. I haven't even talked to my doctor about it.

>

> Intimacy for Ren and I has really become difficult, there is no longer any

> spontaneity, it all has to be orchestrated. If I want to experience it to

> the fullest I must go off the morphine for 24 hrs, if I don't no matter what

> we do or how hard we try I am felt hanging, an orgasm and sexual release is

> impossible. I end up in tears, and Ren who has in the 32 yrs we have been

> married has always put my pleasure ahead of his is left feeling helpless.

>

> Ren never asks, he quietly waits for me. When the need for that special

> closeness becomes overwhelming I stop the morphine and endure the pain, and

> Ren injects the morphine immediately afterwards. Is there a better way? I

> love him so very much.

>

> Marg )

> mesenteric vascular insufficiency, chronic pancreatitis, severe

> malabsorption, paralytic ilius, non eater, g-tube

> doll@...

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>