Guest guest Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 Certainly our kids can have dual diagnoses, and especially with positive family history, as OCD is known to run in families. I have also had some kids respond well to SSRI's, and often their moms have had a good response to them too, but most don't in my experience. Though SSRI's are getting a bad rap now, they have saved thousands of lives, and where we can keep close track of our kids, I feel they are not dangerous drugs. The problem is unsupervised depressed kids who get activated enough by these drugs to try to kill themselves, and now warnings are required on these meds about the incidence of suicide. However, I doubt very seriously if any of our very closely supervised kids could get it together enough to even know how to think about or commit suicide. Dr. JM Obsessions > > > Palilalia is a variant of echolalia, and is a " stim " , as many of the obsessive > repetitious behaviors our children have. Obsessive compulsive disorder in > psychiatric patients I have encountered is a variant of anxiety disorder, and > is often successfully treated with a combination of psychotherapy and SSRI's > (prozac, zoloft, paxil, celexa, and lexapro). Classically obsessions are > considered to one of the mental mechanisms whereby one displaces anxieties > into behaviors as a substitute for facing painful thoughts, such as a desire > to hurt someone they love, etc. Magical thinking is often a part of this. I do > not believe the mechanism is the same in ASD; no one knows for sure but it > is considered to be a reaction to some dysregulation of the brain chemistry > caused by toxins or pathogens. It still may basically be a way to bind anxiety, > but the SSRI's more often than not do not work and sometimes make these > problems worse. There have been too many instances noted by many of the > " stims " decreasing in response to some nutrient change to consider that they > are only a mental mechanism. However, anxiety certainly seems to play a > role in many of these behaviors, which are seen to increase in stressful > situations, changes in routines, etc. As to treatment, I always try to clear > the gut of pathogen overgrowth, get rid of foods that the child is sensitive to, > and put all our metabolic corrective strategies into place, e.g. quintet, a good > nutrient regime, etc. > > Kids who are successfully chelated lose their stims, and some kids who have > brain viruses respond well with treatment to a loss of their " behaviors. " To > make a long story short, test and treat, heal the gut, avoid toxic foods, get > the metals down and the viruses out, and have in place good behavior > modification strategies. It is definitely one of the toughest challenges I as > a doctor encounter in these kids, and one of the last things to go as they > recover. After I have done all my usual therapeutics, I sometimes will try > SSRI's in a tough case, and occasionally a child does respond. Some have > had success with inositol powder, up to 6 or 8 grams a day > (1/4 tsp = 1 gram; I get it at Life Extension Foundation). Hope this doesn't > confuse you more - clearly the less I know the longer the answer!! Dr. JM > > > > How do you view obsessions versus obsessive compulsive behaviors? > And, do you > treat these issues similarly (e.g., overall biomedical approaches > such as > gf/cf, quintet, 5-htp, etc.). And what have you found to be most > successful for > > obsessions and repetitive behavior (but not compulsions)? > > Also, do you have any specific experience with Palilalia which is the > repeating of one's own words (contrasted with echolalia)? > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 Dr. McCandless, Do you think it is possible for our kids to have a duel diagnosis? My daughter's diagnosis is autism and OCD. Her father has OCD and so do many relatives on both sides of the family. We have just started a low dose of Zoloft and are seeing positive results. We resisted using meds again for a long time, but her obsessions and anxiety were really getting the best of her. Her dose of Zoloft is only 25mg a day and the obsessions/anxiety are much better. We are also aggressively using enzymes. We have had difficulty with supplements almost making her worse instead of better. However, right now the combination of Zoloft, enzymes and magnesium seems to be doing something positive. Sorry this is long. I just wondered if a child can have autism and OCD? Obsessions Palilalia is a variant of echolalia, and is a " stim " , as many of the obsessive repetitious behaviors our children have. Obsessive compulsive disorder in psychiatric patients I have encountered is a variant of anxiety disorder, and is often successfully treated with a combination of psychotherapy and SSRI's (prozac, zoloft, paxil, celexa, and lexapro). Classically obsessions are considered to one of the mental mechanisms whereby one displaces anxieties into behaviors as a substitute for facing painful thoughts, such as a desire to hurt someone they love, etc. Magical thinking is often a part of this. I do not believe the mechanism is the same in ASD; no one knows for sure but it is considered to be a reaction to some dysregulation of the brain chemistry caused by toxins or pathogens. It still may basically be a way to bind anxiety, but the SSRI's more often than not do not work and sometimes make these problems worse. There have been too many instances noted by many of the " stims " decreasing in response to some nutrient change to consider that they are only a mental mechanism. However, anxiety certainly seems to play a role in many of these behaviors, which are seen to increase in stressful situations, changes in routines, etc. As to treatment, I always try to clear the gut of pathogen overgrowth, get rid of foods that the child is sensitive to, and put all our metabolic corrective strategies into place, e.g. quintet, a good nutrient regime, etc. Kids who are successfully chelated lose their stims, and some kids who have brain viruses respond well with treatment to a loss of their " behaviors. " To make a long story short, test and treat, heal the gut, avoid toxic foods, get the metals down and the viruses out, and have in place good behavior modification strategies. It is definitely one of the toughest challenges I as a doctor encounter in these kids, and one of the last things to go as they recover. After I have done all my usual therapeutics, I sometimes will try SSRI's in a tough case, and occasionally a child does respond. Some have had success with inositol powder, up to 6 or 8 grams a day (1/4 tsp = 1 gram; I get it at Life Extension Foundation). Hope this doesn't confuse you more - clearly the less I know the longer the answer!! Dr. JM How do you view obsessions versus obsessive compulsive behaviors? And, do you treat these issues similarly (e.g., overall biomedical approaches such as gf/cf, quintet, 5-htp, etc.). And what have you found to be most successful for obsessions and repetitive behavior (but not compulsions)? Also, do you have any specific experience with Palilalia which is the repeating of one's own words (contrasted with echolalia)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 : Yes, you're right - one study said they needed 18 grams, so it is probably best to work up until you find an effective dose. Dr. JM Obsessions > > > > > > > > > Palilalia is a variant of echolalia, and is a " stim " , as > many of the > > obsessive > > > repetitious behaviors our children have. Obsessive compulsive > > disorder in > > > psychiatric patients I have encountered is a variant of anxiety > > disorder, and > > > is often successfully treated with a combination of > psychotherapy and > > SSRI's > > > (prozac, zoloft, paxil, celexa, and lexapro). Classically > obsessions > > are > > > considered to one of the mental mechanisms whereby one displaces > > anxieties > > > into behaviors as a substitute for facing painful thoughts, > such as a > > desire > > > to hurt someone they love, etc. Magical thinking is often a > part of > > this. I do > > > not believe the mechanism is the same in ASD; no one knows > for sure > > but it > > > is considered to be a reaction to some dysregulation of the > brain > > chemistry > > > caused by toxins or pathogens. It still may basically be a > way to bind > > anxiety, > > > but the SSRI's more often than not do not work and sometimes > make > > these > > > problems worse. There have been too many instances noted by > many of > > the > > > " stims " decreasing in response to some nutrient change to > consider > > that they > > > are only a mental mechanism. However, anxiety certainly > seems to play > > a > > > role in many of these behaviors, which are seen to increase in > > stressful > > > situations, changes in routines, etc. As to treatment, I > always try > > to clear > > > the gut of pathogen overgrowth, get rid of foods that the > child is > > sensitive to, > > > and put all our metabolic corrective strategies into place, e.g. > > quintet, a good > > > nutrient regime, etc. > > > > > > Kids who are successfully chelated lose their stims, and > some kids who > > have > > > brain viruses respond well with treatment to a loss of their > > " behaviors. " To > > > make a long story short, test and treat, heal the gut, avoid > toxic > > foods, get > > > the metals down and the viruses out, and have in place good > behavior > > > modification strategies. It is definitely one of the toughest > > challenges I as > > > a doctor encounter in these kids, and one of the last things > to go as > > they > > > recover. After I have done all my usual therapeutics, I > sometimes > > will try > > > SSRI's in a tough case, and occasionally a child does > respond. Some > > have > > > had success with inositol powder, up to 6 or 8 grams a day > > > (1/4 tsp = 1 gram; I get it at Life Extension Foundation). > Hope this > > doesn't > > > confuse you more - clearly the less I know the longer the > answer!! > > Dr. JM > > > > > > > > > > > > How do you view obsessions versus obsessive compulsive > behaviors? > > > And, do you > > > treat these issues similarly (e.g., overall biomedical > approaches > > > such as > > > gf/cf, quintet, 5-htp, etc.). And what have you found to be most > > > successful for > > > > > > obsessions and repetitive behavior (but not compulsions)? > > > > > > Also, do you have any specific experience with Palilalia > which is the > > > repeating of one's own words (contrasted with echolalia)? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 I think you are right and I think sometimes giving a pill is the easy answer. My husband also has OCD and taking Luvox has changed his life for the positive. It takes just enough of the edge off of the obsessions to make functioning less stressful. Without it he is often a very frustrated, agitated fellow. I only hope that the fears associated with anti-depressants and suicide in children don't make if hard for those who are truly helped by the drugs to have access. I think you are right; careful monitoring is the key. And I don't believe most of our kids can get it together enough to think of suicide. My daughter is too worried about what day Christmas is on this year and if she has to go to school next Thursday etc. to think of much else. Obsessions > > > Palilalia is a variant of echolalia, and is a " stim " , as many of the obsessive > repetitious behaviors our children have. Obsessive compulsive disorder in > psychiatric patients I have encountered is a variant of anxiety disorder, and > is often successfully treated with a combination of psychotherapy and SSRI's > (prozac, zoloft, paxil, celexa, and lexapro). Classically obsessions are > considered to one of the mental mechanisms whereby one displaces anxieties > into behaviors as a substitute for facing painful thoughts, such as a desire > to hurt someone they love, etc. Magical thinking is often a part of this. I do > not believe the mechanism is the same in ASD; no one knows for sure but it > is considered to be a reaction to some dysregulation of the brain chemistry > caused by toxins or pathogens. It still may basically be a way to bind anxiety, > but the SSRI's more often than not do not work and sometimes make these > problems worse. There have been too many instances noted by many of the > " stims " decreasing in response to some nutrient change to consider that they > are only a mental mechanism. However, anxiety certainly seems to play a > role in many of these behaviors, which are seen to increase in stressful > situations, changes in routines, etc. As to treatment, I always try to clear > the gut of pathogen overgrowth, get rid of foods that the child is sensitive to, > and put all our metabolic corrective strategies into place, e.g. quintet, a good > nutrient regime, etc. > > Kids who are successfully chelated lose their stims, and some kids who have > brain viruses respond well with treatment to a loss of their " behaviors. " To > make a long story short, test and treat, heal the gut, avoid toxic foods, get > the metals down and the viruses out, and have in place good behavior > modification strategies. It is definitely one of the toughest challenges I as > a doctor encounter in these kids, and one of the last things to go as they > recover. After I have done all my usual therapeutics, I sometimes will try > SSRI's in a tough case, and occasionally a child does respond. Some have > had success with inositol powder, up to 6 or 8 grams a day > (1/4 tsp = 1 gram; I get it at Life Extension Foundation). Hope this doesn't > confuse you more - clearly the less I know the longer the answer!! Dr. JM > > > > How do you view obsessions versus obsessive compulsive behaviors? > And, do you > treat these issues similarly (e.g., overall biomedical approaches > such as > gf/cf, quintet, 5-htp, etc.). And what have you found to be most > successful for > > obsessions and repetitive behavior (but not compulsions)? > > Also, do you have any specific experience with Palilalia which is the > repeating of one's own words (contrasted with echolalia)? > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 Hi- My son definitely has both autism and OCD. OCD is different from the intense repetitive behaviors and interests that are commonly associated with autism. As Dr. JM said, the behaviors must be anxiety based for it to be OCD. My son's OCD was very bad over the summer, and I did some research on treatment. I think the 6-8 grams of inositol powder that Dr. JM mentioned is too low (with all due respect, Dr. JM). The studies I read indicated that at least 12 grams of myoinositol was needed to relieve OCD, or instead a smaller amount of inositol hexaphosphate could be used (IP6). We give 1500 mg/day of IP6. > I think you are right and I think sometimes giving a pill is the easy answer. My husband also has OCD and taking Luvox has changed his life for the positive. > It takes just enough of the edge off of the obsessions to make functioning less stressful. Without it he is often a very frustrated, agitated fellow. > I only hope that the fears associated with anti-depressants and suicide in children don't make if hard for those who are truly helped by the drugs to have access. > I think you are right; careful monitoring is the key. And I don't believe most of our kids can get it together enough to think of suicide. My daughter is too worried about what day Christmas is on this year and if she has to go to school next Thursday etc. to think of much else. > Obsessions > > > > > > Palilalia is a variant of echolalia, and is a " stim " , as many of the > obsessive > > repetitious behaviors our children have. Obsessive compulsive > disorder in > > psychiatric patients I have encountered is a variant of anxiety > disorder, and > > is often successfully treated with a combination of psychotherapy and > SSRI's > > (prozac, zoloft, paxil, celexa, and lexapro). Classically obsessions > are > > considered to one of the mental mechanisms whereby one displaces > anxieties > > into behaviors as a substitute for facing painful thoughts, such as a > desire > > to hurt someone they love, etc. Magical thinking is often a part of > this. I do > > not believe the mechanism is the same in ASD; no one knows for sure > but it > > is considered to be a reaction to some dysregulation of the brain > chemistry > > caused by toxins or pathogens. It still may basically be a way to bind > anxiety, > > but the SSRI's more often than not do not work and sometimes make > these > > problems worse. There have been too many instances noted by many of > the > > " stims " decreasing in response to some nutrient change to consider > that they > > are only a mental mechanism. However, anxiety certainly seems to play > a > > role in many of these behaviors, which are seen to increase in > stressful > > situations, changes in routines, etc. As to treatment, I always try > to clear > > the gut of pathogen overgrowth, get rid of foods that the child is > sensitive to, > > and put all our metabolic corrective strategies into place, e.g. > quintet, a good > > nutrient regime, etc. > > > > Kids who are successfully chelated lose their stims, and some kids who > have > > brain viruses respond well with treatment to a loss of their > " behaviors. " To > > make a long story short, test and treat, heal the gut, avoid toxic > foods, get > > the metals down and the viruses out, and have in place good behavior > > modification strategies. It is definitely one of the toughest > challenges I as > > a doctor encounter in these kids, and one of the last things to go as > they > > recover. After I have done all my usual therapeutics, I sometimes > will try > > SSRI's in a tough case, and occasionally a child does respond. Some > have > > had success with inositol powder, up to 6 or 8 grams a day > > (1/4 tsp = 1 gram; I get it at Life Extension Foundation). Hope this > doesn't > > confuse you more - clearly the less I know the longer the answer!! > Dr. JM > > > > > > > > How do you view obsessions versus obsessive compulsive behaviors? > > And, do you > > treat these issues similarly (e.g., overall biomedical approaches > > such as > > gf/cf, quintet, 5-htp, etc.). And what have you found to be most > > successful for > > > > obsessions and repetitive behavior (but not compulsions)? > > > > Also, do you have any specific experience with Palilalia which is the > > repeating of one's own words (contrasted with echolalia)? > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 , How does the IP6 work for the OCD. The 25mg of Zoloft we give is helping a great deal. It's not completely gone, but much better. Obsessions > > > > > > Palilalia is a variant of echolalia, and is a " stim " , as many of the > obsessive > > repetitious behaviors our children have. Obsessive compulsive > disorder in > > psychiatric patients I have encountered is a variant of anxiety > disorder, and > > is often successfully treated with a combination of psychotherapy and > SSRI's > > (prozac, zoloft, paxil, celexa, and lexapro). Classically obsessions > are > > considered to one of the mental mechanisms whereby one displaces > anxieties > > into behaviors as a substitute for facing painful thoughts, such as a > desire > > to hurt someone they love, etc. Magical thinking is often a part of > this. I do > > not believe the mechanism is the same in ASD; no one knows for sure > but it > > is considered to be a reaction to some dysregulation of the brain > chemistry > > caused by toxins or pathogens. It still may basically be a way to bind > anxiety, > > but the SSRI's more often than not do not work and sometimes make > these > > problems worse. There have been too many instances noted by many of > the > > " stims " decreasing in response to some nutrient change to consider > that they > > are only a mental mechanism. However, anxiety certainly seems to play > a > > role in many of these behaviors, which are seen to increase in > stressful > > situations, changes in routines, etc. As to treatment, I always try > to clear > > the gut of pathogen overgrowth, get rid of foods that the child is > sensitive to, > > and put all our metabolic corrective strategies into place, e.g. > quintet, a good > > nutrient regime, etc. > > > > Kids who are successfully chelated lose their stims, and some kids who > have > > brain viruses respond well with treatment to a loss of their > " behaviors. " To > > make a long story short, test and treat, heal the gut, avoid toxic > foods, get > > the metals down and the viruses out, and have in place good behavior > > modification strategies. It is definitely one of the toughest > challenges I as > > a doctor encounter in these kids, and one of the last things to go as > they > > recover. After I have done all my usual therapeutics, I sometimes > will try > > SSRI's in a tough case, and occasionally a child does respond. Some > have > > had success with inositol powder, up to 6 or 8 grams a day > > (1/4 tsp = 1 gram; I get it at Life Extension Foundation). Hope this > doesn't > > confuse you more - clearly the less I know the longer the answer!! > Dr. JM > > > > > > > > How do you view obsessions versus obsessive compulsive behaviors? > > And, do you > > treat these issues similarly (e.g., overall biomedical approaches > > such as > > gf/cf, quintet, 5-htp, etc.). And what have you found to be most > > successful for > > > > obsessions and repetitive behavior (but not compulsions)? > > > > Also, do you have any specific experience with Palilalia which is the > > repeating of one's own words (contrasted with echolalia)? > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 I agree - it's definitely the higher functioning ones that would be most likely to try it. Re: Obsessions > > > > > Certainly our kids can have dual diagnoses, and especially with > positive > > family history, as OCD is known to run in families. I have also > had some > > kids respond well to SSRI's, and often their moms have had a good > response > > to them too, but most don't in my experience. Though SSRI's are > getting a > > bad rap now, they have saved thousands of lives, and where we can > keep close > > track of our kids, I feel they are not dangerous drugs. The > problem is > > unsupervised depressed kids who get activated enough by these drugs > to try > > to kill themselves, and now warnings are required on these meds > about the > > incidence of suicide. However, I doubt very seriously if any of > our very > > closely supervised kids could get it together enough to even know > how to > > think about or commit suicide. Dr. JM > > Dr. McCandless, I hope you would add a caution to parents who are > choosing the SSRI's for slightly older higher functioning or Asperger > kids though. I have seen the effects of suicidal thoughts, violent > actions some of these kids can have on SSRI's. Kids as young as 11 > or 12. Even when parents think and truely are watching these kids, I > have know of several who have done things such as going to the school > restoom and trying to cut wrists, take meds to school and trying to > overdose there and very young teens taking weapons to school. I > understand that the most autistic of our kids couldn't get it > together enough, but don't underestimate some of the higher > functioning kids. Just a word of caution. > Michele > > > > > Many frequently asked questions and answers can be found at <http://forums.autism-rxguidebook.com/default.aspx> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 > > Certainly our kids can have dual diagnoses, and especially with positive > family history, as OCD is known to run in families. I have also had some > kids respond well to SSRI's, and often their moms have had a good response > to them too, but most don't in my experience. Though SSRI's are getting a > bad rap now, they have saved thousands of lives, and where we can keep close > track of our kids, I feel they are not dangerous drugs. The problem is > unsupervised depressed kids who get activated enough by these drugs to try > to kill themselves, and now warnings are required on these meds about the > incidence of suicide. However, I doubt very seriously if any of our very > closely supervised kids could get it together enough to even know how to > think about or commit suicide. Dr. JM Dr. McCandless, I hope you would add a caution to parents who are choosing the SSRI's for slightly older higher functioning or Asperger kids though. I have seen the effects of suicidal thoughts, violent actions some of these kids can have on SSRI's. Kids as young as 11 or 12. Even when parents think and truely are watching these kids, I have know of several who have done things such as going to the school restoom and trying to cut wrists, take meds to school and trying to overdose there and very young teens taking weapons to school. I understand that the most autistic of our kids couldn't get it together enough, but don't underestimate some of the higher functioning kids. Just a word of caution. Michele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.