Guest guest Posted December 8, 1999 Report Share Posted December 8, 1999 >From: Kwpapke@... Kurt, I may be all wrong but I thought the Puer Aeternus was part of every male (and every female as well?). It's the Divine Child, isn't it? The one who plays and creates and flies? Actually, I believe I had an imaginary -- or maybe he was real -- Puer best friend inside me as a child. Might have been part of myself as tomboy, even -- the wings, say. And I'm not sure he isn't still around somewhere. I see him often in others -- in babies, in children, and later -- he becomes more elusive as he approaches adulthood, but he's around somewhere. Laughing, I shouldn't wonder. The world would be very dull without him -- and I'm not sure we'd have any art worth the term. We need a new word for the Divine Female Child -- Puella never struck me as having any meaning. Jung did like his Latin phrases, didn't he? I think the problem of the Puer is related in Jung to bad mothering -- you get the idea from the Jung literature that all mothers are tied to their babes at the umbilicus (not sure whose), that poor old Puer is never encouraged to become his own separate self. A very Freudian notion -- or maybe European. There are and always have been sensible mothers, who have lives of their own and don't gobble up their babies -- or let themselves be gobbled up. I think it's probably connected to men and women relating better than of yore. And oh yes, lots of them do, though I know I'd get plenty of argument on that one. I have a favorite Coleridge poem about the Puer -- it's the fourth verse of a poem called " The Pang More Sharp Than All: An Allegory. " Ah! He is gone, and yet will not depart! -- Is with me still, yet I from Him exiled! For still there lives within my secret heart The magic image of the magic Child, Which there He made up-grow by his strong art, As in that crystal orb -- wise Merlin's feat -- The wondrous 'World of Glass,' wherein inisl'd All long'd-for things their beings did repeat;-- And there He left it, like a Sylph beguiled, To live and yearn and languish incomplete! I don't quite understand it -- except for the first four lines, I certainly understand that. I see I've written on the margin (no doubt in that Coleridge class) that " He " is Love. Yes, Coleridge himself says so in the last verse, and concludes: O worse than all! O pang all pangs above Is Kindness counterfeiting absent Love! There are worse kinds of counterfeit, but I know what he means. The spontaneous Divine Child still has plenty to offer -- everything, in fact -- and it's a suitable time to make Him, or Her, or Them (twins?) welcome. Carroll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 1999 Report Share Posted December 9, 1999 Morning here Mike, As long as we're planning, when is that festival of Saturnalia, when slaves and masters exchange places for a while. Can't be too far off I'm thinking. Know you have the answer, and awaiting a signal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 1999 Report Share Posted December 9, 1999 In a message dated 12/9/99 7:55:14 AM Central Standard Time, cloudhand@... writes: << However, one of the better autobiographies I ever read says: One thing kinda led to another and then - quite suddenly - I fell over. You may dream you are taking command of your life, or dream that it happens to you... You may dream that you are the victim of your life, or that you have it very much under your control... You may believe your acts are worth something, worth nothing, decisive, incisive or naff... In the end - and quite suddenly - whatever the case we all fall over... Better to be a Pan, don't you think, than a Napoleon? We all wind up in the same place anyway... m >> Ohhhhh~!!!! I've been waiting for this thread for a long time! Puer/Puella.... Pan and ....Would love to hear what the guys feel about this way of being and exactly what it means to them! I seem to always hook into the masculine Puer! It's nothing short of magic! But then....what comes next? Any of you women know this drama? <grin> Cheryl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 1999 Report Share Posted December 9, 1999 > > >Carroll wrote: ><<The spontaneous Divine Child still has plenty to >offer -- everything, in fact -- and it's a suitable time >to make Him, or Her, or Them (twins?) welcome.>> Research time again! What I'm trying to say is that the puer aeternus and the divine child are one and the same archetype, and that archetype does not necessarily carry with it an early death or indeed any death. Cupid (child version of Eros) is a puer aeternus and in one way or another is still going strong. I don't know where the expression originated, Ovid? nor how it was used originally, but the infant Buddha and the infant Jesus are both puer aeternus incarnations -- and they had very different fates in later life. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I believe the puer has had a bad rap and that we should re-examine what Jung and Mme. von Franz have to say about the puer, as we do about what they said about women and the animus, and other theories which were formulated before an immense amount of social change. Their definitions were not writ in stone. I want to know how the puer aeternus/divine child archetype works and plays in the psyche of LIVE ADULT men and women at every part of their lives. It's important to know that. That's our gift to the divine child. Tuberculosis killed ny Keats not the puer in him. Mozart may have been poisoned. I don't see the connection with divine gifts, though I am all too familiar with the prevalence of this association. Obviously there can be too much puer in any one person's development -- too much of any single archetype can be a killer in the individual psyche. Not to mention the myriad ways which can discourage the divine child in the human, drive him/her into hiding. In fair Toronto some of the analysts used to talk about Fraser Boa as a " typical puer. " Maybe this is where the whole idea began to fall apart for me. Because when Fraser died, some of us realized Fraser was the life and blood and heart and imagination that had been holding the Toronto Jung Society (that's not its name) together for years. If Fraser Boa was a puer, we should be so lucky to have more puers in our lives. I never saw or heard any wings in his vicinity -- he didn't need them. He did need a watch, though. Carroll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 1999 Report Share Posted December 9, 1999 Kurt You quote fa's quote of Lennon: >> " Life is what happens to you when you're busy making other plans " >> >> Poignant reminder of the Life-Death-Life cycle, huh? and say: >This quote is also considered the quintessential expression of the problem of >the Puer Aeternus (of which Lennon is a great example), for whom life > " happens to " while they're off dreaming. However, one of the better autobiographies I ever read says: One thing kinda led to another and then - quite suddenly - I fell over. You may dream you are taking command of your life, or dream that it happens to you... You may dream that you are the victim of your life, or that you have it very much under your control... You may believe your acts are worth something, worth nothing, decisive, incisive or naff... In the end - and quite suddenly - whatever the case we all fall over... Better to be a Pan, don't you think, than a Napoleon? We all wind up in the same place anyway... m Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 1999 Report Share Posted December 9, 1999 >> >> >Ohhhhh~!!!!! Carroll~! This reminds me of a " visitation " I had not long >ago~! Please forgive me all of you if I have posted this before, I forget. Well I'VE never seen it before and would hate to have missed it! I like the way it builds up through the lament and call through the pain to the Dance and (this was the most amazing touch -- so hospitable, so southern hemisphere) the timbales. It's truly wonderful, and I assume it ends in a dance. I've been fascinated by Mag for a long long time, went to a superb exhibit of paintings and other art around the Magdalene and her many iconographic forms, and brought home a huge catalog, which I still look at every so often: you might find it in an art library or a university library if you're interested. It's called LA MADDALENA TRA SACRO E PROFANO (subtitle " Da Giotto a De Chirico " , published by La Casa Usher (Firenze) and Arnoldo Mondadori Editore (Milano). The exhibit was at the Pitti Palace in Firenze, 1986. A feast for the eyes, and good articles (alas in Italian). Paperback, 285 pages. The pictures I thought the most curious were of the Magdalene as an old woman hermit in the desert, wearing animal skins and looking like a raddled female the Baptist. This image of the Magdalene apparently arose from mistaking her for and conflating her with a saint named the Egyptian: and this symbolism followed her to France where she was very popular (Madeleine churches all over France, including the big church in Paris.)(also the Three Maries in Provence). Thanks again for posting your gorgeous poem. The only other poem I know (=have heard) on MM is Thunder Perfect Lightning or some such name quoted recently by Frances from scrolls found at Dag Hammadi (?). That Magdalene feels identical with (maybe always was) Sophia, the Shekhina, the Sabbath? -- and is the friend and guide and beloved of Jesus, I believe. It's a Gnostic text. Carroll >The Magdala > >Hear me! >You must hear me! >All of you who would known my Passion! >Learn well this lesson! > >Your Beloved may come to you cloaked and hidden! >It is woman's plight, this agony of soul! >It is a woman's pain that brings into the world the host of men! > >Know as you listen >that pain will be your companion >and as close as your breath! > >Do not look to me for comfort! > I am left comfortless and alone! >I weep and my eyes are as the color of clay! > >My Beloved is gone! > >He will not hear the complaint of my soul! >Surrender to these sayings, for I tell you such is the plight of woman! > >He has beguiled me! >I birthed him and I loved him! >He was my son and my brother and my lover! > >Hear me! >Do not turn away from these sayings of mine! > >The selfsame man >will be your father, your lover, and your son! >These sayings of mine are hard to bear but such is the price of freedom! > >Hold in your hands the bitter fruit of Passion forgotten, >of a heart filled and pierced! > >Behold’ĶThe Man of your Desire! > >I am the Magdala! > >You will find me in your night terrors and tears! >You will see me in your hands as they reach for your Beloved! >You are my sisters yet you despise my sayings! > >Weep with me! >And in your weeping give release to your Dance! >Dance with me this day! >Let your body rejoice in my timbales! > >Dance! > >Dance for your Beloved! >Cast your spell boldly and without shame! >Adorn your feet with markings! >Drop the veil of shame from your eyes! > >Sing with me! > >Sing! > >This I tell you, >until you receive me >you will not know your own Passion! > >You will wander amongst the realm of white dead things! > >You will find me in your belly and in the strength of your legs! > >I am the Magdala! The Magdalena! > >Cheryl Juneau >1/23/99 > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 1999 Report Share Posted December 9, 1999 In a message dated 12/9/99 9:13:28 AM Central Standard Time, cbishop@... writes: << I have a favorite Coleridge poem about the Puer -- it's the fourth verse of a poem called " The Pang More Sharp Than All: An Allegory. " Ah! He is gone, and yet will not depart! -- Is with me still, yet I from Him exiled! For still there lives within my secret heart The magic image of the magic Child, Which there He made up-grow by his strong art, As in that crystal orb -- wise Merlin's feat -- The wondrous 'World of Glass,' wherein inisl'd All long'd-for things their beings did repeat;-- And there He left it, like a Sylph beguiled, To live and yearn and languish incomplete! >> Ohhhhh~!!!!! Carroll~! This reminds me of a " visitation " I had not long ago~! Please forgive me all of you if I have posted this before, I forget. The Magdala Hear me! You must hear me! All of you who would known my Passion! Learn well this lesson! Your Beloved may come to you cloaked and hidden! It is woman's plight, this agony of soul! It is a woman's pain that brings into the world the host of men! Know as you listen that pain will be your companion and as close as your breath! Do not look to me for comfort! I am left comfortless and alone! I weep and my eyes are as the color of clay! My Beloved is gone! He will not hear the complaint of my soul! Surrender to these sayings, for I tell you such is the plight of woman! He has beguiled me! I birthed him and I loved him! He was my son and my brother and my lover! Hear me! Do not turn away from these sayings of mine! The selfsame man will be your father, your lover, and your son! These sayings of mine are hard to bear but such is the price of freedom! Hold in your hands the bitter fruit of Passion forgotten, of a heart filled and pierced! Behold…The Man of your Desire! I am the Magdala! You will find me in your night terrors and tears! You will see me in your hands as they reach for your Beloved! You are my sisters yet you despise my sayings! Weep with me! And in your weeping give release to your Dance! Dance with me this day! Let your body rejoice in my timbales! Dance! Dance for your Beloved! Cast your spell boldly and without shame! Adorn your feet with markings! Drop the veil of shame from your eyes! Sing with me! Sing! This I tell you, until you receive me you will not know your own Passion! You will wander amongst the realm of white dead things! You will find me in your belly and in the strength of your legs! I am the Magdala! The Magdalena! Cheryl Juneau 1/23/99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 1999 Report Share Posted December 9, 1999 In a message dated 12/9/99 1:39:40 PM Central Standard Time, fevans@... writes: << The puer figure brings myth into reality. The message is mythical, stating that he, the myth, so easily wounded, so easily slain, yet always reborn, is the seminal substructure of all imaginative enterprise. " Cheryl's question brought a grin to my face, as i recalled the explanation Bly once gave on why women are attracted to puers, " it's the white wings hanging on the bed post! " LOL >> LOL~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Frances! Ya reckon that's the reason????LOL~! I know this for certain, I am a child myself so much of the time, always expectant about life and the pure joy of living it, that I probably am a target for the Puer guy. <grin> At any rate I find the subject fascinating~!!!!!!!!! Cheryl <grin> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 1999 Report Share Posted December 9, 1999 Carroll wrote: <<The spontaneous Divine Child still has plenty to offer -- everything, in fact -- and it's a suitable time to make Him, or Her, or Them (twins?) welcome.>> Cheryl wrote: <<I seem to always hook into the masculine Puer! It's nothing short of magic! But then....what comes next? Any of you women know this drama? <grin>> Hillman has some interesting things to say about the Puer in SOUL'S CODE. On Carroll's question, Hillman answers " in human life the puer aeternus accounts for the precocious child and the indeniable call of fate .... he appears expecially as the dominant archetype in those visionary figures who make their mark early, disturb the commonplace, and vanish into legend, like Dean, Kurt Cobain, Mozart, Keats and Sheelet, Rimbaud and Schubert. And of course the puer aeternus, as archetype is beyond gender; Jean harlow, Carole Lombard, Patsy Cline, Janis Joplin, Eva Hesse and Amelia Aerhart. The puer figure brings myth into reality. The message is mythical, stating that he, the myth, so easily wounded, so easily slain, yet always reborn, is the seminal substructure of all imaginative enterprise. " Cheryl's question brought a grin to my face, as i recalled the explanation Bly once gave on why women are attracted to puers, " it's the white wings hanging on the bed post! " LOL Frances Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 1999 Report Share Posted December 9, 1999 In a message dated 12/10/99 1:25:27 AM, you wrote: <<I hope she's right. No, flower power didn't work. Everyone was too innocent. But, just because we recognise evil, doesn't mean we have to throw out the good, right?>> Ahh fa... My heart to yours, my hand to yours. Flower power didn't work? Well -- we DID change the world, you know, those of us who were on the line the 60's. No perfect. We didn't get everything... but things did change. We persevere. Stamina counts. phoebe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 1999 Report Share Posted December 9, 1999 Well... as unabashed puer (not to mention unrepentant hippy) myself, here's my take on this. There are those who want, or - very often - are constrained by circumstances to need to be seen as serious and responsible from their tenderest age. There are others who do (or are) not. Being that as it may, both are always required to learn to handle and to balance both ways of 'going about their truth', whichever of the two they prefer to emphasise. This much, though, becomes clear fairly rapidly: those who do not take themselves and things too seriously tend to come to less psychic harm - and, oddly enough, often seem to escape what to others would be utter disasters of physical harm. There are those who can go through Auschwitz and come out wishing only love and forgiveness for all humankind. There are those who regard life as a challenge and every problem, no matter how small, as something to be 'faced' and 'overcome'. There are those who, faced with problems, are so stiff that they would brak rather than bend. My grandfather, Lao, many many years ago said: the highest good is like water water gives life to the ten thousand things and does not strive it flows in places men reject and so is like the tao in dwelling, be close to the land in meditation, go deep into the heart in dealing with others, be gentle and kind in speech, be true in ruling, be just in business, be competent in action, watch the timing no fight, no blame A Chinese friend once told me he regarded this as the final summation of all Chinese thought. I would take it further and say it is the summation of all I regard as the way of the puer (and also - in passing - that Dan is mixing up the word 'liberal' with the word 'idiot' - the biggest of the latter generally lives in the land just the other side of one's own mirror) your immoderate moderator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 1999 Report Share Posted December 9, 1999 In message , Kwpapke@... writes >This quote is also considered the quintessential expression of the problem of >the Puer Aeternus (of which Lennon is a great example), for whom life > " happens to " while they're off dreaming. The (for me if for no-one else) really sad thing was that he had grown *beyond* that - then DEATH happened to him whilst he was busy making other plans! I think that was a Dionysos, but not a puer *aeternus* - there was a lot of Hermes in him too btw - both the good and bad aspects of the Trickster - but he had moved on SO much the very year that he died - oh, god(dess), I'm about to get maudlin - feel free to delete now! It really got to me this year for some reason. Most people think I'm crazy when I tell them the effect 's murder had on me. After all, I was only 6 and he had his day before I was even born, right? WRONG!! I remember him saying, " apathy isn't in. So, flower-power didn't work - so what? We try something else. " I remember feeling that a man with a gun had killed our dream. My uncle told me that people die, but dreams don't. (Then we sang GIVE PEACE A CHANCE really loudly to annoy all the stiffs in the neighbourhood, LOL!) Today I told my supervisor that it had unexpectedly hit me, that a guy who NEVER GAVE UP had been cut down. I said that it *did* feel as though that MF (I have never said or written his name and never will) had killed our dream. She said, " I know a young woman who dreams and never gives up. And I'm looking right at her. " I hope she's right. No, flower power didn't work. Everyone was too innocent. But, just because we recognise evil, doesn't mean we have to throw out the good, right? Maybe we can give peace a chance. Not merely to annoy the middle classes, but because war can be over. If we want it. -- fa http://www.kingseyes.demon.co.uk/greatgoddess.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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