Re: ganoderma/psoriatic arthritis/3 questions

[Guest guest]

>

>The onset of inflammation coincided with hormonal treatment for

>endometriosis.

Dear ,

As there is a seeming direct link between the drug Tx and development of

Sxs then I assume there is liver and kidney involvement! Carduus would

be very useful to help chelate the drug residues and settle the liver

back down. Carduus is specific for scavenging the inflammatory chemicals

from psoriasis, also.

I would consider Glycyrrhiza, Apium and Urtica to help clear

inflammation and put strong emphasis on keeping all animal produce low

in the diet, except oily fish.

Epsom salts baths - 500g Epsom salts (Mg2SO4) in as hot a bath as

possible 2 x per week will help to draw out the waste materials lying

around.

In essence - think liver and kidney Rxs.

Good luck,

Benn

--

Benn Abdy- MNIMH

benn@...

[Guest guest]

Immunosuppressants are... suppressors of immunity...... therefore you risk

infections with benign germs that can become untreatable, even with the

strongest and latest antibiotics.

Then while you are using the immunosuppressants, you cannot protect your

patients with herbs or other modalities working on raising immunity, as you

are negating the effect of you treatment.

Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD.

" The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind "

ganoderma/psoriatic arthritis/3 questions

>

> Many thanks Benn for your suggestions on the tx of psoriatic arthritis

>

>

> My px's consultant was adamant that there was no causal link between the

> tx for endometriosis and the onset of the arthritis. But I presume he

would

> want to offer reassurance and encourage her to take the immunosupressants.

> I think I'll keep an open mind. As far as I know the aetiology of

psoriatic

> arthritis is poorly understood.

>

> I have advised her to consider seriously that she might take the

> methotrexate if there is no reduction of the inflammation after 4-6 weeks.

> She's not keen at all. She's frightened after her painful experience of

the

> hormonal tx.

>

> But I really dont like the look of her hand. It doesnt seem right to

> promote an untried therapy when her condition is potentially

> irreversible. Or at least the px has to make the decision in full

knowledge

> of the facts.

> But I'm not sure what the facts are. What are those bones doing. And what

> about the risks associated with immunosuppressants?

> If anyone has any experience of the side-effects of methotrexate, any

> comments on how to interpret the risks and benefits in this case I'd be

glad

> to hear.

>

> If I were her I would have kept with the Chinese herbs that was helping so

> much.But she definitely didnt want to continue. She is Chinese which

rightly

> or wrongly made me feel that there was less scope for persuasion. Her

spoken

> English is not good and communications with GP and consultant are far from

> perfect.

>

> All in all this is I suppose an everyday case in the life of a modern

> herbalist.

>

> About the ganoderma, by the way I decided that as none of you came out

> against it it was probably ok for her to take it another four weeks. Her

> ESR has been stable for several months at 85; the ganoderma tx in other

> words doesnt seem to have made things worse.

>

> I dont like to ask too many questions at once. Three seems quite enough.

> But while I'm on the subject, another aspect of this case that I found

> difficult was the number of supplements etc she was taking. An even larger

> number than I listed - I forgot to mention the oils (hemp, flax and fish).

> What is the best way to keep up-to-date with the supplement market? How do

> you all go about it? Are there websites that deal with the stuff? Books?

Or

> is it a matter of researching each new product as it comes along?

>

>

>

> Waters

> e.waters@...

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> List Owner

>

>

>

> Graham White, MNIMH

>

>

[Guest guest]

>Immunosuppressants are... suppressors of immunity...... therefore you risk

>infections with benign germs that can become untreatable, even with the

>strongest and latest antibiotics.

>Then while you are using the immunosuppressants, you cannot protect your

>patients with herbs or other modalities working on raising immunity, as you

>are negating the effect of you treatment.

>

>Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD.

> " The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind "

With respect, this degree of generalization has no foundation in

theory, fact or clinical reality and is a misleading

oversimplification. It has all the conceptual sophistication of

equating <immunity> with a the state of a bladder filled with

water - too much immunostimulation and the bladder will enlarge to a

point of danger; immunosuppressants (good stuff like methotrexate)

release the pressure and immunostimulants (bad stuff like ganoderma)

will oppose them and may even make the bladder burst. i don't think

so. the best known example of this apparently scientific wisdom is

the Commission E contraindication of echinacea in CTD's...for which

their is absolutely not one shred of published evidence, either

anecdotal or otherwise.

One encounters the same sort of <reasoning> in the discussions around

use of antioxidants as adjuvants in chemotherapy - several of which

agents operate via increasing oxidative stress. Perhaps oncology

patients should smoke 3 packs a day during chemo to increase free

radical formation? etc etc etc

jonathan

[Guest guest]

Oh dear !

And may I ask how much clinical experience you have with the use of

methotrexate, which you call a " good stuff " .

I happen to have been so " fortunate " to have used it, seen use it and seen

its side effects and see it kill a few of my patients.

I was trying to answer in a kind of moderate way instead of yelling " do not

use it " , but it seems that your overwhelming knowledge of the product makes

you an expert in the field.

As for your remarks about good and bad stuff, next time you are around, just

pop in and I will show you a few cases which demonstrate exactly what I

wrote, with lab work as a proof.

I apologize to the list for that burst of anger, but this type of

condescending remarks is just what I need to light my fuses, especially when

emitted by somebody with no knowledge whatsoever in oncological

pharmacology!.

Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD.

" The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind "

Re: ganoderma/psoriatic arthritis/3 questions

>

> >Immunosuppressants are... suppressors of immunity...... therefore you

risk

> >infections with benign germs that can become untreatable, even with the

> >strongest and latest antibiotics.

> >Then while you are using the immunosuppressants, you cannot protect your

> >patients with herbs or other modalities working on raising immunity, as

you

> >are negating the effect of you treatment.

> >

> >Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD.

> > " The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind "

>

>

>

> With respect, this degree of generalization has no foundation in

> theory, fact or clinical reality and is a misleading

> oversimplification. It has all the conceptual sophistication of

> equating <immunity> with a the state of a bladder filled with

> water - too much immunostimulation and the bladder will enlarge to a

> point of danger; immunosuppressants (good stuff like methotrexate)

> release the pressure and immunostimulants (bad stuff like ganoderma)

> will oppose them and may even make the bladder burst. i don't think

> so. the best known example of this apparently scientific wisdom is

> the Commission E contraindication of echinacea in CTD's...for which

> their is absolutely not one shred of published evidence, either

> anecdotal or otherwise.

>

> One encounters the same sort of <reasoning> in the discussions around

> use of antioxidants as adjuvants in chemotherapy - several of which

> agents operate via increasing oxidative stress. Perhaps oncology

> patients should smoke 3 packs a day during chemo to increase free

> radical formation? etc etc etc

>

> jonathan

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> List Owner

>

>

>

> Graham White, MNIMH

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

>Oh dear !

>

>And may I ask how much clinical experience you have with the use of

>methotrexate, which you call a " good stuff " .

****maybe you should re-read my post when you are a little calmer and

perhaps see there may have been some irony in my remarks. FYI i am

not licensed to prescribe methotrexate. Little matter that if i was i

would never use it; but then i do not remember claiming to.

>I happen to have been so " fortunate " to have used it, seen use it and seen

>its side effects and see it kill a few of my patients.

***i really try not to get involved in killing patients as a general

rule, which is why i left standard practice medicine in 1973.

>I was trying to answer in a kind of moderate way instead of yelling " do not

>use it " , but it seems that your overwhelming knowledge of the product makes

>you an expert in the field.

**** and i was answering your apparently general point about using

herbal <immunostimulants > with <immunosuppressants> which is either

an unacceptable oversimplification or a badly phrased attempt to make

a specific point about the specific case. i took it as a general

point. i do not believe that the original questioner was

unintelligent in asking her question, and to be honest i am confused

as to what you are trying to say.do not use what? methotrexate?

ganoderma? the combination? when? none of which has much to do by

the way with my degree of expertise or lack of it.

>As for your remarks about good and bad stuff, next time you are around, just

>pop in and I will show you a few cases which demonstrate exactly what I

>wrote, with lab work as a proof.

***perhaps you could elaborate here ? i am unfortunately unlikely to

be popping in in the near future since a sea voyage at minimum would

be involved. I am sure your results will be of interest. how do they

relate to the general point you were making??

>

>I apologize to the list for that burst of anger, but this type of

>condescending remarks is just what I need to light my fuses, especially when

>emitted by somebody with no knowledge whatsoever in oncological

>pharmacology!.

***there is a discernable difference between attacking someone's

position and attacking their personal state of knowledge . i have

made no reference to your degree of knowledge, education,

qualifications experience or abilities - clinical or otherwise. i am

not sure what point you are making about oncological pharmacology

here, other than to impute that i know nothing about it, which is

neither particularly accurate nor germane; perhaps you could explain

more clearly..... do you consider antioxidant supplementation

contraindicated in any particular chemo protocol, or all, or what?

jonathan

--

jonathan treasure | MNIMH | AHG| medical herbalist

[Guest guest]

This discussion seems to be about something really important, that I've

never figured out properly, and not found explained. I've treated a number

of people on methotrexate and steroids, and not had great success with

immunomodulation.

However, the basics - acting on the circulation and directly on tissues

affected, e.g. lungs or joints using topical applications, have had some

effect. I agree with about antioxidants, and also believe in taking

away pro-inflammatory influences, i.e. low digestive system stress and

tissue cleansing - the most effective way seems to be diet, antioxidant

dietary supplements and moderate exercise. Nervines can also be very

helpful.

An interesting theory relates depression to disturbed immune function, in

particular interleukin-1 receptor proliferation. One theory is that this

follows general downregulation of the immune system, as also happens in

stress. It seems that this may be followed by a generalized and nonspecific

increase in immune reactivity - with increased allergenic responses, but

decreased natural killer cell activity. Another theory directly relates

depression to inflammation - a reversal of this cause and effect model, in

which dietary lack of omega-3 in particular causes an increased release of

interleukin-1, also with a general increase in immune reactivity. Either

way, the combination of omega-3 in particular, and nervines, seems to be

strongly indicated.

Patients who have done well so far have been gradually weaned off, with the

herbal medicine compensating for lower doses of the drugs, which follows a

period of reducing the physiological stresses. In that phase liquorice and

adaptogens seem to help.

Immunosuppressants are extremely powerful drugs. Using immunomodulatory

herbs in normal western doses seems to be like trying to row a boat against

a powerful tide. The question I want to know more about is, whether the

herbs can have direct influence on the immune system when people are on

these drugs?

On the general point, there is evidence, and this is also my experience,

that resistance to side effects of anticancer drugs is enhanced by

adaptogens, e.g. the ginsengs and Astragalus. I have prescribed

immunostimulant herbs alongside, and the effect seems to be positive. But

it's not been clear cut - these things rarely are, with different

interventions going on and being monitored by scans every month or two. It's

also a different kind of illness.

I strongly believe the key thing is the clinical experience. Does anyone

have cases where an immunomodulatory effect from herbal medicine given

concurrently with immunosuppressants has been seen in autoimmune illness,

without a flare up of symptoms? Do the herbs really have a powerful enough

effect to do this? What level of prednisolone, for example, is high enough

to mask such activity?

McDermott ejhm@...

General overview: http://www.acnp.org/G4/GN401000098/CH096.html

" Macrophage theory of depression " is from Medical Hypotheses, sorry haven't

got other details to hand, I think 1996 or 1997.

[Guest guest]

Re the discussion on immunostimulant herbs and immunosuppresant drugs.

Firstly the question is what effect are you trying to achieve? If a patient

is on methotrexate you are severely limited in doing anything useful. If

your philosophy is to treat the cause of a patient's symptoms then you need

to start with the bowel ecology and integrity which in turn affects the

blood which in turn affects the liver. In any inflammatory condition there

is always profound disturbance here and not attending to these areas as a

foundation will mean poor results. The gut wall in people taking non

steroidal antiinflammatories, steroids and methotrexate is " shot " meaning

leaky this in turn means many molecules pass into the blood perpetuating

the inflammation. So many disturbances occur when taking

Methotrexate........blood changes, kidney toxicity, liver toxicity etc etc.

It is not good medicine. We see the damage in live blood smears on high

resolution microscopy where liver damage and cell damage are evident. Red

and white cell damage etc in patients who are taking these type of drugs.

Equally we have observed the immunostimulatory effects of several

treatments i.e the appearance of natural killer cells after administration

and before and afters where the neutrophils have become normal and active.

Restorative treatment ultimately is the only way to go. Of course

exceptions are in the emergency treatment of life threatening conditions.

Psoriatic arthropathy, like RA is a label, with a sound philosophy geared

towards removal of obstructions (in the naturopathic sense) and support to

those organs and systems, treatment plans become a little easier. I

wouldn't do any of this without a full lab work up before starting. I know

my approach strays from the purely herbal but there are many non toxic ways

of helping these difficult cases. (If the patient is patient)

lind Blackwell ND MRN MNIMH