Re: room spray and facial mist - emulsifiers

November 11, 2000

>Hi everyone!

>

>Is Polysorbate 20 or EM Blend 150/210 the only products that will

>emulsify EO's in water or an alcohol and water blend? I would like

>to make a room spray/freshener with water, alcohol and EO's and I

>want to make a facial mist with water and EO's. Can someone tell me

>the difference between the polysorbate and the EM blend?

>

>Thanks!!

>Sherry

>

Hi Sherry,

I have no idea what EM Blend 150 and EM Blend 210 are

chemically so it is impossible for me to comment on these

raw materials. I know Majestic Mountain Sage sells these

on the web and I don't think they are too eager to let you

know what these ingredients are. I could be wrong. The

MMS website did say that EM Blend 210 should not be used on

the skin.

Which brings up the subject of a facial spray. Making a

product, either for personal use or for sale, which will be

sprayed into the face deserves a lot of thought.

Obviously, I don't think you want to use too much alcohol,

so you have to consider the preservative system thoroughly.

Your facial spray will probably contain a lot of water.

Formulas that contain a lot of water are hard to preserve

effectively. You don't want to be spraying microorganisms

into the face area where they could be inhaled or get into

your eyes.

Obviously, you choice of EOs will also be important when

you formulate your facial spray.

Do you want to emulsify the EO or solubilize the EO?

When an EO is emulsified, the EO droplets are large and

will reflect light. The product appears hazy, cloudy or

milky.

When an EO is solubilized, the drops of EO in your product

are smaller than a wavelength of light. Droplets that

small cannot reflect light and therefore the product

appears clear.

When I'm trying to solubilize an essential oil or fragrance

oil, I always reach for Polysorbate 20. I also like

Octoxynol-10 and Isoceteth-20 because of their low odor.

Polysorbate 80 should also work.

Maurice

November 11, 2000

Maurice,

First, thanks for the info! since we don't know what's in the EM blends from

MMS... maybe i'll go with the Polysorbate 20. Is there a difference in

product (quality) as far as who I would order from? (or is it all the same

stuff) Who IS a good supplier of Polysorbate 20? So, you are saying

Polysorbate 20 would be fine to use in facial/body products? Which

preservative would be good for this type of blend? and would this

preservative (in liquid form) work well in the solubilizing process? (not

turn it cloudy)

I guess I didn't know the correct terminology for emulsify and solubilize!!!

I would definately like my product to solubilize. Right now these

sprays/mists are for Christmas gifts but hopefully at some point I will have

a good and law abiding ;-) product to sell someday.

Another thought... (in regards to Delores' post about witch hazel blend)

What about adding witch hazel instead of water to the facial mist -- Is that

as easily solubilized as water? also thinking... How could I incorporate a

fixed oil (small amount) such as apricot seed, jojoba, etc. to a body spray

blend? Would the polysorbate work well in something like that?

Sherry

November 11, 2000

sherry the easy way to make a room spray is half everclear or vodka

half water and your eo. i dont know if thats enough alcohol to keep it

clear with another emulsifier and i dont know if this can be sold???

maurice are you still there i make a face spray with just witch hazel

and eo's i am not selling it but i have never had one go bad its

very refreshing and i like witch hazel for my face maurice do you

think witchhazel has enough alcohol so that if you are only putting say

30 drops of eo in a 4 oz bottle you could leave out a preservative i

dont really know te oil water ratio would be to have o have a

preservative would any amount of oil in water require a preservative

dolores

November 11, 2000

Interesting, on the witch hazel...I use it, too, for personal use...

PJ

November 11, 2000

I have the EM Blend 150 and the sole ingredient listed is polysorbate 20....

The EM Blend 210 has no ingredient listing.

I've also been attempting to incorporate a small percentage of carrier oil in my

body spray, along with the fragrance oil. It must be emulsifying rather than

solubilizing however, because the solution turns " milky " . I followed the

distributor's directions and used 73% alcohol, 24% DI water, with the remaining

3% consisting of fragrance and carrier oil.

I just had a look at the ingredient listing of a major manufacturer's body

spray.

They use polysorbate 20, and their spray is crystal clear.........

Tamara

sherrylj@... wrote:

> Maurice,

>

> First, thanks for the info! since we don't know what's in the EM blends from

> MMS... maybe i'll go with the Polysorbate 20. also thinking... How could I

> incorporate a

> fixed oil (small amount) such as apricot seed, jojoba, etc. to a body spray

> blend? Would the polysorbate work well in something like that?

>

> Sherry

>

November 11, 2000

Tamara,

You need to press them for disclosure of the contents of the EM blends. It

is required under the RTK laws. If they do not disclose the ingredients then

expose their shoddy business practices for what they are. There is no reason

why any vendor should not disclose to you what the components are in their

blend. Besides the obvious labeling issue there is the safety issue to be

addressed. This is another reason to purchase your materials from reputable

vendors. All of the reputable vendors I have dealt with in the past 25 years

have always had full disclosure of the composition of their materials. Any

vendor that shies away from this responsibility should not be used because

it appears that they are hiding something. You have everything to gain from

using reputable vendors to provide you with the materials that you need.

Polysorbate 20 is available from several different manufacturers. Maurice

also mentioned several other compounds that he uses for solubilization

including isoceteth-20, which I also use in one of my products. Again, you

may need to increase the concentration of the polysorbate-20 that you have

assuming that it is 100% polysorbate-20 and has not been adulterated.

Young

KY Labs

Innovators of Fine Personal Care Products

www.kylabs.com

Re: room spray and facial mist - emulsifiers

I have the EM Blend 150 and the sole ingredient listed is polysorbate 20....

The EM Blend 210 has no ingredient listing.

I've also been attempting to incorporate a small percentage of carrier oil

in my

body spray, along with the fragrance oil. It must be emulsifying rather than

solubilizing however, because the solution turns " milky " . I followed the

distributor's directions and used 73% alcohol, 24% DI water, with the

remaining

3% consisting of fragrance and carrier oil.

I just had a look at the ingredient listing of a major manufacturer's body

spray.

They use polysorbate 20, and their spray is crystal clear.........

Tamara

sherrylj@... wrote:

> Maurice,

>

> First, thanks for the info! since we don't know what's in the EM blends

from

> MMS... maybe i'll go with the Polysorbate 20. also thinking... How could

I

> incorporate a

> fixed oil (small amount) such as apricot seed, jojoba, etc. to a body

spray

> blend? Would the polysorbate work well in something like that?

>

> Sherry

>

November 12, 2000

Thanks for the info

I would like to get away from using alcohol in my sprays - or at least, such a

high percentage of it.

I have some of the Pemulin TR-2, and I'm going to experiment with it in body

sprays. Question: Can I substitute tetrasodium EDTA for disodium EDTA as a

chelating agent in a formulation using the Pemulin TR-2?

I have the former, but not the latter......

Tamara

Young wrote:

> Tamara,

>

> You need to press them for disclosure of the contents of the EM blends. It

> is required under the RTK laws. If they do not disclose the ingredients then

> expose their shoddy business practices for what they are. There is no reason

> why any vendor should not disclose to you what the components are in their

> blend. Besides the obvious labeling issue there is the safety issue to be

> addressed. This is another reason to purchase your materials from reputable

> vendors. All of the reputable vendors I have dealt with in the past 25 years

> have always had full disclosure of the composition of their materials. Any

> vendor that shies away from this responsibility should not be used because

> it appears that they are hiding something. You have everything to gain from

> using reputable vendors to provide you with the materials that you need.

> Polysorbate 20 is available from several different manufacturers. Maurice

> also mentioned several other compounds that he uses for solubilization

> including isoceteth-20, which I also use in one of my products. Again, you

> may need to increase the concentration of the polysorbate-20 that you have

> assuming that it is 100% polysorbate-20 and has not been adulterated.

>

> Young

> KY Labs

> Innovators of Fine Personal Care Products

> www.kylabs.com

>

> Re: room spray and facial mist - emulsifiers

>

> I have the EM Blend 150 and the sole ingredient listed is polysorbate 20....

> The EM Blend 210 has no ingredient listing.

> I've also been attempting to incorporate a small percentage of carrier oil

> in my

> body spray, along with the fragrance oil. It must be emulsifying rather than

> solubilizing however, because the solution turns " milky " . I followed the

> distributor's directions and used 73% alcohol, 24% DI water, with the

> remaining

> 3% consisting of fragrance and carrier oil.

> I just had a look at the ingredient listing of a major manufacturer's body

> spray.

> They use polysorbate 20, and their spray is crystal clear.........

> Tamara

>

> sherrylj@... wrote:

>

> > Maurice,

> >

> > First, thanks for the info! since we don't know what's in the EM blends

> from

> > MMS... maybe i'll go with the Polysorbate 20. also thinking... How could

> I

> > incorporate a

>

> > fixed oil (small amount) such as apricot seed, jojoba, etc. to a body

> spray

> > blend? Would the polysorbate work well in something like that?

> >

> > Sherry

> >

>

November 12, 2000

Sherry,

Witch hazel extracts can be obtained either with 14% alcohol or alcohol

free. Regardless of the type of witch hazel used both are equivalent to

water from a formulation perspective. They will neither help nor hinder the

solubilization of oils into an aqueous vehicle.

To answer the question of using polysorbate-20 to solubilize small

quantities of apricot kernel oil or jojoba oil for a body spray yes you

could use one of several high HLB emulsifiers for this task. The only

restrictions are to keep the amount of oil below 2% and start using the

polysorbate-20 or isoceteth-20 at equal levels of oil increasing it as

needed until clarity is achieved. Another good solubilizer is PEG-40 Castor

Oil.

Young

KY Labs

Innovators of Fine Personal Care Products

www.kylabs.com

Re: room spray and facial mist - emulsifiers

Maurice,

First, thanks for the info! since we don't know what's in the EM blends

from

MMS... maybe i'll go with the Polysorbate 20. Is there a difference in

product (quality) as far as who I would order from? (or is it all the same

stuff) Who IS a good supplier of Polysorbate 20? So, you are saying

Polysorbate 20 would be fine to use in facial/body products? Which

preservative would be good for this type of blend? and would this

preservative (in liquid form) work well in the solubilizing process? (not

turn it cloudy)

I guess I didn't know the correct terminology for emulsify and solubilize!!!

I would definately like my product to solubilize. Right now these

sprays/mists are for Christmas gifts but hopefully at some point I will have

a good and law abiding ;-) product to sell someday.

Another thought... (in regards to Delores' post about witch hazel blend)

What about adding witch hazel instead of water to the facial mist -- Is that

as easily solubilized as water? also thinking... How could I incorporate a

fixed oil (small amount) such as apricot seed, jojoba, etc. to a body spray

blend? Would the polysorbate work well in something like that?

Sherry

November 12, 2000

Thank you again, ,

You have been a terrific help

Tamara

Young wrote:

> Tamara,

>

> Yes you c an substitute Na4 for Na2EDTA. The general guideline for which

> EDTA salt to use is based on the pH of the product that you are

> incorporating the EDTA salt into.

November 12, 2000

pj i never did get an answer as to weather the pure witch hazel has

enoug alcohol to emulsify several drops of eo i wonder how much

alcohol you need in other words what the ratio is or perhaps if you add

any water no amount of everclear will emulsify even smallest amount of

oil. the chemists are very much in demand they usually get to all of

the questions eventually so i remain patient (although my questions

on vit c in skin cream got lost somewhere and never answered should i

repost it?) do you know anything about this witchhazel thing pj

dolores

November 12, 2000

> pj i never did get an answer as to weather the pure witch hazel has

> enoug alcohol to emulsify several drops of eo

Dolores, I think may have answered this when he said that witch hazel

with alcohol is still considered a water product.

i wonder how much

> alcohol you need in other words what the ratio is or perhaps if you add

> any water no amount of everclear will emulsify even smallest amount of

> oil.

I use 70% alcohol in my spritzers with the balance made up of water and

fragrance. The samples I have in clear bottles look like everything is mixed

and there is no separation that I can see. I do intend to add Polysorbate 20

to my next batch though.

(although my questions

> on vit c in skin cream got lost somewhere and never answered should i

> repost it?)

It is my understanding that it is difficult to incorporate vitamin C into a

lotion or cream. I am interested in this as well and was hoping that either

or Maurice would address it on the list.

Pat.

Peace, Joy, Serenity

House of Scents tm. Body Oils, Fragrance Oils, Incense, Candles, Soap, Etc.

achil@...

http://houseofscents.safeshopper.com/

www.yourhealthandbody.com

November 12, 2000

> I have some of the Pemulin TR-2, and I'm going to experiment with

it in body sprays.

> Question: Can I substitute tetrasodium EDTA for disodium EDTA as a

> chelating agent

Tamara/all~ what is Pemulin TR-2? Is this used as an alternative to

alcohol in sprays? also, what does a chelating agent do in these

sprays/mists?

Thanks,

Sherry

November 12, 2000

thanks pat just curious why are you adding poly 20 if it is clear and

mixed? dolores

November 12, 2000

> polysorbate-20 or isoceteth-20 at equal levels of oil increasing it

> as needed until clarity is achieved. Another good solubilizer is

> PEG-40 Castor Oil.

>

> Young

/all~

Does anyone know of a supplier who would sell these solubilizers in

small quantities so I can experiment as to which i like better?

Thanks,

Sherry

November 12, 2000

> thanks pat just curious why are you adding poly 20 if it is clear and

> mixed?

If I understand Maurice correctly, it will cut the particle size of the

fragrance way down.

Pat.

Peace, Joy, Serenity

House of Scents tm. Body Oils, Fragrance Oils, Incense, Candles, Soap, Etc.

achil@...

http://houseofscents.safeshopper.com/

www.yourhealthandbody.com

November 12, 2000

> Does anyone know of a supplier who would sell these solubilizers in

> small quantities so I can experiment as to which i like better?

Sherry, if you want to experiment you are better off getting a sample of

each from the manufacturer.

Pat.

Peace, Joy, Serenity

House of Scents tm. Body Oils, Fragrance Oils, Incense, Candles, Soap, Etc.

achil@...

http://houseofscents.safeshopper.com/

www.yourhealthandbody.com

November 12, 2000

PJ,

Witch Hazel has been used for a long time as an astringent but it does not

have properties similar to alcohol. Alcohol is very volatile and flammable.

It acts as a freezing point depressant and has fairly strong solvency. Witch

hazel is non-flammable mostly aqueous and has a volatility similar to water.

Are they similar? I think not. The only similarity is that both can be used

as an astringent.

Young

KY Labs

Innovators of Fine Personal Care Products

www.kylabs.com

Re: room spray and facial mist - emulsifiers

? Answer me, if i am wrong.....witch hazel has been used for skin,

forever, lol.....the properties are similar to alcohol, but much less

drying...tis an ideal medium for a facial mist, but , I would advise

refrigeratin, depending on the EO you use

November 12, 2000

thankyou kevin if one did decide to use just witch hazel and eo i

assume it would work ok if you shook it up before spraying or no

dolores

November 12, 2000

gee kevin now why couldn't i think of that i guess thats why you are

the chemist and i'm not thanks for reminding me of something that was

right in front of me dolores ah now i remember 2 other things i

wanted to run by you what the heck are phospholipids i know it has

something to do with vit f and i read that oils that are high in

phospholipids are linseed peanut wheat germ and olive it seems to be

quite the rage in skin creams and " anti aging creams " what exactly does

it do and how could it be incorperated in a home made cream this one

small cosmetic chemical co that puts out a book of recipes and sells the

ingredients has a product called phosphoderm which they charge an arm

and leg for and state that it is refined phospholipids engineered to

form instant liposomes and emulsify products at same time manufactured

by i.r.d. corp in va. so if there is any thing to this couldnt you get

the same effect by just using one of the previously mentioned oils?

dolores

November 12, 2000

Dolores, who is ird corp? Are they on the web?

Pat.

Peace, Joy, Serenity

House of Scents tm. Body Oils, Fragrance Oils, Incense, Candles, Soap, Etc.

achil@...

http://houseofscents.safeshopper.com/

www.yourhealthandbody.com

November 12, 2000

pat yes but it is a little confuesing it stands for international

research and development corp pretty generic i have never tried them

on the web but they have another co called cosmetic supply co that

sells lots of different chemicals natural and others the thing i like

is they have some stuff that us little people cant get anywhere else of

course they charge through nose but thats the breaks they also have

wholesale prices and i think they have even lower prices for large and

wholesale orders. they also have a line of skincare products and they

sell a book which gives recipes that of course they sell. the book is

by nikolaus smeh who is the cosmetic chemist who is in charge of the

whole thing so anyway if you punch in skincare-institute.com you will

hook into all of the above give me some feedback if you do check it

out dolores

November 12, 2000

Tamara,

Thanks for the chelating info. I'm also in the learning stage (of many

products). It sure is great to be on this list with so many people

willing to help!!! Good luck with your formulations.

Sherry

November 12, 2000

In a message dated 11/12/00 1:02:52 PM Central Standard Time,

Cosmeticinfoegroups writes:

> Sherry,

>

> I have the isoceth-20 and can obtain both the PEG-40 Castor Oil and the

> Polysorbate-20. Contact me off list for additional information. I need to

> know what you consider a small quantity.

>

,

Thanks for so much great info! I will contact you off list regarding

products.

Sherry

November 12, 2000

I really appreciate all who replied to this dialogue. I am still in the

learning stages of all that goes into a cosmetic/product (ingredients AND

time/energy). It's also nice to see others still in the learning stages

with similar questions. I hope someday to be more on the giving side of

things :-)

Sherry

November 13, 2000

Dolores,

Phospholipids are the fundamental energy source for our bodies. Basically

these are lipids (fatty substances) that have a phosphoric acid group

attached. Some phospholipids can form liposomes and some will act as

emulsifiers. Liposomes can be pictured like an egg. You have a shell around

a core material but the liposome is extremely small. Liposomes can be used

to deliver the core material to the skin and to the cells themselves. One

very common phospholipid that many people are familiar is lecithin. Lecithin

can be used as an emulsifier or coemulsifier in personal care products.

Another phospholipid that is used as an emulsifier is Amphisol, DEA-Cetyl

Phosphate.

Young

KY Labs

Innovators of Fine Personal Care Products

www.kylabs.com

RE: room spray and facial mist - emulsifiers