Guest guest Posted September 25, 2000 Report Share Posted September 25, 2000 One of the goals of this list is to dispel myths about natural and synthetic ingredients. Recently I was looking at some sites on the web and came across one that was advertising Potassium Sorbate by the pallet for what looked like a reasonable price. The problem was that their description made it sound like it was natural Potassium Sorbate, so I wrote to them; below is their answer. Know what you are buying out there. ----------- In a message dated 09/22/2000 6:51:35 PM Central Daylight Time, achil@... writes: << Are you saying on your web page that the potassium sorbate that you sell for $1.95 per pound is the natural potassium sorbate derived from Mountain Ash trees? >> No, I am not. I know of no one who is making this available commercially. As I told another person this week, this method of obtaining potassium sorbate would be like killing an elephant for its toenail, then throwing away the rest of the carcass. What I A-M saying is that potassium sorbate, like citric acid, is natural, free existing in nature, healthful (breaks down in the body into water and CO2), and treated by the body like any other polyunsaturated fat. >>> Or is the potassium sorbate that you have for sale a synthetic potassium sorbate, which seems more likely to me as it would be extremely expensive to produce it in a natural form. >>> It is produced commercially, like citric acid. No one is out there killing mountain ash trees just to get the sorbate. The very assertion sounds like a fraudulent claim to me. Greg Caton President Lumen Foods (soybean.com) Pat. Peace, Joy, Serenity House of Scents tm. Body Oils, Fragrance Oils, Incense, Candles, Soap, Etc. achil@... http://houseofscents.safeshopper.com/ www.yourhealthandbody.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2000 Report Share Posted September 26, 2000 That info the supplier gave you speaks volumes (indirectly of course) about the folks who play up K sorbate as being this great all-natural substitute for products like parabens. I like his analogy of the elephant being killed for a toenail. " Save trees use Germaben II " ..... I guess many people wouldn't go for that in a bumper sticker sara > One of the goals of this list is to dispel myths about natural and synthetic > ingredients. Recently I was looking at some sites on the web and came across > one that was advertising Potassium Sorbate by the pallet for what looked > like a reasonable price. The problem was that their description made it > sound like it was natural Potassium Sorbate, so I wrote to them; below is > their answer. Know what you are buying out there. > ----------- > In a message dated 09/22/2000 6:51:35 PM Central Daylight Time, > achil@m... writes: > > << Are you saying on your web page that the potassium sorbate that you sell > for > $1.95 per pound is the natural potassium sorbate derived from Mountain Ash > trees? >> > > No, I am not. I know of no one who is making this available > commercially. As I told another person this week, this method of > obtaining potassium sorbate would be like killing an elephant for > its toenail, then throwing away the rest of the carcass. What > I A-M saying is that potassium sorbate, like citric acid, is natural, > free existing in nature, healthful (breaks down in the body into > water and CO2), and treated by the body like any other polyunsaturated > fat. > > >>> Or is the potassium sorbate that you have for sale a synthetic > potassium sorbate, which seems more likely to me as it would be extremely > expensive to produce it in a natural form. >>> > > It is produced commercially, like citric acid. > No one is out there killing mountain ash trees just to get the sorbate. > The very assertion sounds like a fraudulent claim to me. > > Greg Caton > President > Lumen Foods (soybean.com) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2000 Report Share Posted September 27, 2000 Sara, I like your bumper sticker idea but Germaben doesn't have any of the potassium sorbate in it. Potassium sorbate is a material that is sold as is. I have 26 listings for it in one of my buyers guides. I find it very interesting that there are many people out there saying that this ingredient or that one(your choice of any ingredient that you would like to substitute for the pronoun 'one') is naturally derived when the reality is indeed more like the elephant and the toenail. It is true that many of the compounds used in cosmetics can be found in nature in various botanicals but the extraction and concentration is not economically justified. I am sure that it makes some people feel good to know that their products are 'natural'. Young KY Labs Innovators of Fine Personal Care Products www.kylabs.com Re: dispelling myths That info the supplier gave you speaks volumes (indirectly of course) about the folks who play up K sorbate as being this great all-natural substitute for products like parabens. I like his analogy of the elephant being killed for a toenail. " Save trees use Germaben II " ..... I guess many people wouldn't go for that in a bumper sticker sara > One of the goals of this list is to dispel myths about natural and synthetic > ingredients. Recently I was looking at some sites on the web and came across > one that was advertising Potassium Sorbate by the pallet for what looked > like a reasonable price. The problem was that their description made it > sound like it was natural Potassium Sorbate, so I wrote to them; below is > their answer. Know what you are buying out there. > ----------- > In a message dated 09/22/2000 6:51:35 PM Central Daylight Time, > achil@m... writes: > > << Are you saying on your web page that the potassium sorbate that you sell > for > $1.95 per pound is the natural potassium sorbate derived from Mountain Ash > trees? >> > > No, I am not. I know of no one who is making this available > commercially. As I told another person this week, this method of > obtaining potassium sorbate would be like killing an elephant for > its toenail, then throwing away the rest of the carcass. What > I A-M saying is that potassium sorbate, like citric acid, is natural, > free existing in nature, healthful (breaks down in the body into > water and CO2), and treated by the body like any other polyunsaturated > fat. > > >>> Or is the potassium sorbate that you have for sale a synthetic > potassium sorbate, which seems more likely to me as it would be extremely > expensive to produce it in a natural form. >>> > > It is produced commercially, like citric acid. > No one is out there killing mountain ash trees just to get the sorbate. > The very assertion sounds like a fraudulent claim to me. > > Greg Caton > President > Lumen Foods (soybean.com) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2000 Report Share Posted September 27, 2000 >That info the supplier gave you speaks volumes (indirectly of course) >about the folks who play up K sorbate as being this great all-natural >substitute for products like parabens. I like his analogy of the >elephant being killed for a toenail. " Save trees use Germaben >II " ..... I guess many people wouldn't go for that in a bumper >sticker What puzzles me is why is it that the vendors of " toenails " are homecrafters selling to other homecrafters. To me, there appears to be two possible reasons. They're either trying to deceive their customers or they don't know better. Either way, the credibility of these vendors is brought into question. It's reminiscent of some species that eat their young. Soon that species becomes extinct. The truth will set you free! Maurice --------- Maurice Hevey Convergent Cosmetics Chanhassen, Minnesota FAX: mhevey@... The Virtual Lab Bench - WWW Resource for Cosmetic Scientists URL: http://www.skypoint.com/members/mhevey/virtual_lab.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2000 Report Share Posted September 28, 2000 Hi Sara. > I'm not actually saying increased regulation via gov't involvement is > a good thing, but I can see it being imposed if self-regulation > amongst soapers and other small-scale toiletries doesn't help > eliminate some of the people out there who really do pass off poor > quality and/or dangerous products as quality. I agree with you, and it is a possibility, especially if someone gets hurt and the media get a hold of it. > I've seen quite a bit of willful ignorance and " It'll never happen to > me " s on other boards, and while there is a bit of cold comfort that > these folks will probably never get it together to make a real go of > selling their stuff, what if they do? If you have seen me post on any other list you know that I have had my share of people telling me where to stick it when all I was saying was the truth. I have seen all of the cosmetic chemists walk away from various lists in disgust because people wanted to argue about not doing things legally. If they want to change the law, a list is not the place to do it. > I'm very much for self-regulation. No one's kitchen should be open > to surprise inspections by the FDA, much less OSHA, but you would > think there would be enough fear gov't regulation across the board > that even the people new to making toiletries, especially lotions, > would think twice and maybe then some. I don't think anyone wants that, but OSHA and the FDA can inspect your premises without notification now. I think you may need employees for OSHA to do it, but if you are a corporation, you are considered an employee yourself, even if nobody else works for the corp. There > isn't enough information out there, but what info there is is > dispersing faster and further with lists like this one Let's hope we can keep it going. Sometimes I get the impression that people think we are trying to hinder them when we explain what is required. All we are doing is trying to make their life a little easier by giving them information that they are required to know to operate a cosmetic business. Pat. Peace, Joy, Serenity House of Scents tm. Body Oils, Fragrance Oils, Incense, Candles, Soap, Etc. achil@... http://houseofscents.safeshopper.com/ www.yourhealthandbody.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2000 Report Share Posted September 30, 2000 Sherri, Thanks for giving us more " food for thought " . Your comments and thoughts are well-taken. Angie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2000 Report Share Posted September 30, 2000 >Increased regulation is not a desirable thing. It is much better if we can >regulate our own industry with minimal intervention by the government. More >government regulation would have the effect of increasing costs throughout >the industry, it could also stifle innovation. A possible situation for comparison is what's happening with the natural health products industry in Canada. Out of curiosity I got the workbooks for the proposed regulatory framework for this new category (things like vitamins, herbal and dietary supplements will soon be part of their own classification, and not fall under foods or drugs) to see what may be coming. I've only had time to skim through but it looks like licensing will be required for all manufacturers, their facilities and their employees. Individual products will also all need to be licensed. Lots of licenses, lots of license fees and you can bet lots of bureacratic red tape and paperwork. It's not a good time to be in the natural health product industry in Canada. I doubt most micro companies would be able to handle all the fees and requirements and still be a viable business. And before I get a bunch of emails from any fellow Canucks on the list, nowhere in the books does it mention anything about essential oils or herbs or anything in relation to cosmetic use. But I think it's a good example because up till now there's been pretty free reign on what claims were being made, uses recommended etc. with supplements and probably a combination of some pushing it too far and public pressure for standards have brought about further regulation. This could be our future if we don't self regulate like Pat talks about. Some will say the proposed changes to the cosmetic regs in Canada have already come about, but the truth is they have not. The " proposed " changes to the regs that are listed on PSB's website are just that...proposed. Although it may sound like a done deal, it's far from even getting to first base in the process of bringing the changes about. While it may well take years for those changes to be implemented (or not if pressure from the public for more regulation in the industry increases due to what they're seeing on the store shelves) and some of the fees and such may well be the swan song of micro cosmetic manufacturers, there are however some good proposed changes in there that I feel should be followed through self regulation. Things like voluntarily listing ingredients etc. As an ingredient supplier many of my clients are small manufacturers of cosmetics and I see a wide range of attitudes, opinions and knowledge. Some of my clients are very conciencious, always questing for more knowledge of their ingredients and the chemistry of making cosmetics. They are striving to make the best quality, safe products and do their homework. If they don't already know the regs, they're asking the right questions and I applaude their effort to do things correctly. Often however I also see the other end of the spectrum. People ordering things then asking " what the heck is this stuff and what do I do with it? " Or asking how to make something then dropping that they need to get this made for a craft fair next weekend. Then there's the ones who want only all-natural and think anything synthetic is bad and perhaps their concern for " natural " overrides the concern for simply making a good and safe product. All we can do is continue to educate or send folks in the right direction for them to learn more and help them to do things the best way. Kudos to you Pat for starting this list. Thanks too to the chemists for their generous sharing of their time and knowledge so that we all can continue to learn and improve the way we do things. Warmly, Sherri http://www.oshun.bc.ca mailto:info@... Oshun - Soap & Cosmetic Ingredients & Packaging Wholesalers, Cosmetic & Soap Manufacturers. Your wholesale source for quality! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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