Guest guest Posted June 15, 2003 Report Share Posted June 15, 2003 In a message dated 06/15/2003 12:54:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, toni.toni2@... writes: > <<Horror is horror, but it has seldom been > perpetrated with such " civilized' precision > and carefully thought out measures.The brains, the planning, the rigid > discipline are not always signs of tyrants. This was a well orchestrated > horror of unseen proportions and toerated by the society that considered > itself before the Hitler days as " superior " and christian " , the height of > culture and personal honor in the modern world.>> > This is like saying that the way people killed each other with spears and even guns before the advent of the nuclear bomb was horrible. But now that we have " the brain, the planning, the rigid discipline " to kill people en masse while we destroy the planet at the same time, we are more " civilized " people! What is " civilized precision and carefully thought out measures " anyway? When the U.S. " precision bombs " that were solely " intended for military installations in Baghdad " started to bomb the neighboring Iran and Pakistan killing innocent civilians in those countries, where did your " civilized precision " end up? And what do you think of what many Americans say today about their superiority over the rest of the world? The same Americans who tolerate all kinds of persecution, abuse, lies and even torture of Arabs in general and Muslims in particular? Remember Guantanamo Bay? It's still fully operational! We're not just talking about historical Japanese Concentration camps. And how do you explain people's blank generalizations and harrassment of all Muslims in this country as terrorists, letting terrorist bombings of Mosques in the U.S. today go unnoticed and censored from the news? > <<We lessen the horror od what really was and many Germans today have no > actual conception today of the horror that was Nazi Germany. This is after > all 60 years ago.>> If your memory of the horrors of Nazi Germany is so fresh and abhorrent to you, what is your perception of what the Zionist military forces are doing to Palestinians in the Gaza strip? To me, it looks like history repeating itself; this time by the very " victims of the Holocaust? " > <<The horror of Nazism sprang from the earth and one particular location > which had the myths of war and violence, and it was not done with out the > cooperation of the majority of Germans (and Austrians)>> And the horrors of Zionism and Imperialism today are now springing from both sides of the globe, (both having lived through wars and violence) not just one particular location, with the quiet assent of ignorant people on both sides. Silence under the circumstances is the equivalent of cooperation in my book. There's no true compassion (for the innocent) without action. And if Americans or Israeli's don't rise up and take action against the atrocities committed by their governments, they are indeed condoning the oppressors and agressors. > <<The Stars Bangled Banner does not proclaim what Germany proclaimed > then. " Deutschland, Deutschland uber Alles " >> > However, how many " wars of liberation " have been waged under the auspices of the " Stars Bangled Banner? " I have not lived over seventy years to be able to count dozens of such aggressions in the name of " freedom " and " democracy " in " America, the land of the brave. " > <<Nobody compares our possible future to Russia under Stalin, Spain under > Franco or China under Mao. We understand the different peoples and events > that caused those horrors. It is time we remembered that just because our > enemy was white, civilized, well educated and the ancestors of many > Americans, that that only made it worse. Let us not put our blinders on > again as we did for so long at the begining of WWll when many Americans > actually supported Hitler.>> Well said! The same analogy could be used about the Bush administration in the U.S.A. today.... " Let us not put our blinders on again ....when many Americans actually supported Bush " in his war against innocent Afghanis and Iraqi's. They told us war was justified because they were looking for Bin Laden and WMD to avenge and prevent 9-11. Who and what have they discovered after murdering more than twenty thousand innocent civilians? Oh, but they were just " collateral damage, " they say as they shrug their shoulders. And guess what? Iran's next in line. What will happen to our blinders then? > > <<This country may develope many problems plus the ones we have already, but > the solution will be homegrown. We have our own power hungry would be > dictators, so lets be alert to them. We cannot assume Germany in 1940 could > be our model of retrogression from civilization. We would create our own. > > I cannot say strongly enough that this seems to me to be an attempt to > underplay the actuality of what happened then.>> I agree, our problems and " solutions " are all " homegrown " starting with ourselves and our blinders. " I cannot say strongly enough " that your comments today are an " attempt to underplay of what's happening in actuality now. " Having been absent from Jungfire for the last year and a half, when I read your response to another poster regarding Bush, I thought to myself, " Toni has come a long way " with an open mind. But I'm not surprised when I see that we all have blind spots that won't go away until we open our hearts too.... > <<There were no excuses then and there are no excuses now. We will > avoid our own brand of trouble by awareness and and action, not by scaring > ourselves with false comparisons which unfortunately most Americans would > discount anyway, as they still discount the Holocaust. > Please let's think this through and let us not draw comparisons with that > which has no comparison. The situation may be dire enough as some of you say > to be kept in mind, but not this way.I will go so far as to say that in my > opinion this is not an honest assessment.>> Whose honest assessment are we talking about here Toni? How many times do we allow history to repeat itself by sticking our heads in the sand, or hanging on to history while forgetting about the shrinking geography and population (brought about by some such thing known as " operation freedom " )? > <<A student of history can learn from the past, but must always be wary of > over -symplification. We are capable of our own brand of stupidity and > violence.>> Which, in my opinion, we are quite responsible for committing as we speak.... Exasperated, Ghazaleh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2003 Report Share Posted June 15, 2003 Toni: We have an expression in Farsi (and by the way, I'm not an Arab, though I recognize them as oppressed fellow human beings): the only proper answer to ignorance is silence..... But the answer to indiscriminate violence, well, that's something else! Ghazaleh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2003 Report Share Posted June 15, 2003 Dear Ghazaleh, Nothing much has changed between us and our views. If you think you are : " exasperated " just imagine how I feel. You wrote: " This is like saying that the way people killed each other with spears and > even guns before the advent of the nuclear bomb was horrible. But now that we > have " the brain, the planning, the rigid discipline " to kill people en masse > while we destroy the planet at the same time, we are more " civilized " people " That of course is not what I said or meant.Please reread what I actually wrote. The point was just this, the more " civilized the human race becomes, the more talented we become at committing atrocities against others.It is in mind infinitely worse for so called civilized, educated people to put their talents to violence and destruction than for a simpler culture to do it. You have a knack for twisting my words.How could you so misread a paragraph and put your interpretation on words that never said what you tried to get out of them? I find what you state about present day America overblown and exaggerated. I condone none of what is truly wrong,, but you see with a jaundiced eye, and see everything wrong. We have enough to be sorry about without any exaggeration or meaning supplied by others. My memory of those years is just as fresh today as it was then. The only difference is 60 years of contemplation on those events. It was not just a history lesson or a TV program to me. You obviously do not know the real Holocaust or you could never compare it with the awful mess in Palestine today. There was no fighting back, no terrorism perpetrated on the Nazis by the peoples they rounded up and exterminated. The Arabs who call themselves " Palestinians " a name that comes out of nowhere, seem very capable of keeping up their side of the terror.Indeed it could be said they instigate the terror. You and I will never see eye to eye because you only see one side as evil the other good. To me, there is both good and evil on both sides. Nothing is black and white and the problems which were manufactured when the other Arab countries would not allow their own, (they were refugees from Israel although they were encouraged to stay.) to immigrate into their countries. By forcing them into refugee camps, they were able foment for their purposes,the horrors of a homeless people which neither friend or foe wanted. If you think the hands of the Muslim population of the Near East are cleaner than those of the Jews, I personally believe you are prejudiced. I do not excuse violence, but I do understand self defense. I do not sanction terror whoever perpetrates it. You on the other hand see only one side as witnessed by the following you wrote: " And if Americans > or Israeli's don't rise up and take action against the atrocities committed by > their governments, they are indeed condoning the oppressors and aggressors. Have you seen the latest 'atrocity in which 18 Jews died? Your statement : " I thought to myself, " Toni has come > a long way " with an open mind. " A very patronizing statement from someone whose mind is seeing only one side.I have not changed during this last year, nor have you it seems. I at least returned to the history books of events I personally lived through including the formation of Israel. Each step taken by both sides. Every victory won, every battle lost. Two wars to destroy Israel (which were the reasons given at the time). two failures that could not be accepted. Who started what and when?. There is history to pinpoint each and every move. There was no and there is now no 'Palestinian people' or a' Palestinian state'. The poor people in those refugee camps have been used by others and forced into self defense against an unbeatable enemy by others.No amount of shouting can rearrange the facts and suddenly find " Palestinians " as a separate peoples. Their religion has been used to fan the flames of hatred. those actual refugees had lived in peace with their Jewish neighbors once....or have you forgotten as all other Arabs want us to. I did not start this argument and I will not continue. Instead of the mote in my eye, look to your own.( as I must look at my own. And please, this is not the place to reinflame old feelings. It is fact that In prewar and postwar years (WWll) the Arab nations were always allied with the Nazi's, they were not neutral. Nothing has changed their minds or their experiences.Fascism is still present in some places there as it was always The Arabs of some of the states have come a long way toward democracy...but there is still a long way away from theocracy and autocracy. Think what you will. Stir up all the dissention possible, I will not react further. There is blame enough for everyone involved. The US is not the ogre in the matter except when it sells itself for future oil deals.I deflect all the heat you want the US to be responsible for. There is enough blame for everyone. And this exchange is exactly why we have the crisis today. Gazaleh you wrote: > or Israeli's don't rise up and take action against the atrocities committed by > their governments, they are indeed condoning the oppressors and aggressors " A good dose of self knowledge, a little less use of such inflammatory words, and an understanding, that none of us come with clean hands might be a good subject for a meditation.I will certainly search my soul. I will not fight WWll with you nor will I fight the smoldering crisis in the Middle East with you. None of us is innocent, but I do believe we must stick to facts if we are ever to understand any of it. I had every right to say what I did in the post you are attacking. You have every right to disagree( as long as you read what I actually wrote).If you are a citizen of the US, you also have a right to strive to change this government, all you have to do is convince 51% of your fellow citizens. I was talking of past history, and the possibility of this country which gave me refuge and which I love, falling into possible internal danger. I made no reference to and had no intention of widening this reminder of the past into a battle over a problem that no one has yet been able to solve equitably. You are an Arab, I am an American and a Jew. Both of us think we are somewhat spiritual, and yet the love you and I talk about seems not to be evident. I am to blame since I decided to react, just as much as you are . No good will come of our further attacks. And I find it difficult not arise in defense of my nation and my people, my tribe. May G-d have mercy on both of us. Toni We have in all this a good example of how my truth is not yours, and yours is not mine. Neither of us can claim we have THE truth. Ther is turmoil enough in the world, I refuse to be part of anymore. I have said what I must say.I will not return to this subject with you.although i grieve your your anger at America and Israel. My anger is just on the terrorists who attack indiscriminately - Original Message ----- To: <JUNG-FIRE > Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 4:56 PM Subject: Re: us, nazi gemany > In a message dated 06/15/2003 12:54:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > toni.toni2@... writes: > > > <<Horror is horror, but it has seldom been > > perpetrated with such " civilized' precision > > and carefully thought out measures.The brains, the planning, the rigid > > discipline are not always signs of tyrants. This was a well orchestrated > > horror of unseen proportions and toerated by the society that considered > > itself before the Hitler days as " superior " and christian " , the height of > > culture and personal honor in the modern world.>> > > > This is like saying that the way people killed each other with spears and > even guns before the advent of the nuclear bomb was horrible. But now that we > have " the brain, the planning, the rigid discipline " to kill people en masse > while we destroy the planet at the same time, we are more " civilized " people! > > What is " civilized precision and carefully thought out measures " anyway? > When the U.S. " precision bombs " that were solely " intended for military > installations in Baghdad " started to bomb the neighboring Iran and Pakistan killing > innocent civilians in those countries, where did your " civilized precision " > end up? > > And what do you think of what many Americans say today about their > superiority over the rest of the world? The same Americans who tolerate all kinds of > persecution, abuse, lies and even torture of Arabs in general and Muslims in > particular? Remember Guantanamo Bay? It's still fully operational! We're not just > talking about historical Japanese Concentration camps. And how do you explain > people's blank generalizations and harrassment of all Muslims in this country > as terrorists, letting terrorist bombings of Mosques in the U.S. today go > unnoticed and censored from the news? > > > > <<We lessen the horror od what really was and many Germans today have no > > actual conception today of the horror that was Nazi Germany. This is after > > all 60 years ago.>> > > If your memory of the horrors of Nazi Germany is so fresh and abhorrent to > you, what is your perception of what the Zionist military forces are doing to > Palestinians in the Gaza strip? To me, it looks like history repeating itself; > this time by the very " victims of the Holocaust? " > > > <<The horror of Nazism sprang from the earth and one particular location > > which had the myths of war and violence, and it was not done with out the > > cooperation of the majority of Germans (and Austrians)>> > > And the horrors of Zionism and Imperialism today are now springing from both > sides of the globe, (both having lived through wars and violence) not just one > particular location, with the quiet assent of ignorant people on both sides. > Silence under the circumstances is the equivalent of cooperation in my book. > There's no true compassion (for the innocent) without action. And if Americans > or Israeli's don't rise up and take action against the atrocities committed by > their governments, they are indeed condoning the oppressors and agressors. > > > > <<The Stars Bangled Banner does not proclaim what Germany proclaimed > > then. " Deutschland, Deutschland uber Alles " >> > > > However, how many " wars of liberation " have been waged under the auspices of > the " Stars Bangled Banner? " I have not lived over seventy years to be able to > count dozens of such aggressions in the name of " freedom " and " democracy " in > " America, the land of the brave. " > > > > <<Nobody compares our possible future to Russia under Stalin, Spain under > > Franco or China under Mao. We understand the different peoples and events > > that caused those horrors. It is time we remembered that just because our > > enemy was white, civilized, well educated and the ancestors of many > > Americans, that that only made it worse. Let us not put our blinders on > > again as we did for so long at the begining of WWll when many Americans > > actually supported Hitler.>> > > > Well said! The same analogy could be used about the Bush administration in > the U.S.A. today.... " Let us not put our blinders on again ....when many > Americans actually supported Bush " in his war against innocent Afghanis and Iraqi's. > They told us war was justified because they were looking for Bin Laden and WMD > to avenge and prevent 9-11. Who and what have they discovered after murdering > more than twenty thousand innocent civilians? Oh, but they were just > " collateral damage, " they say as they shrug their shoulders. And guess what? Iran's > next in line. What will happen to our blinders then? > > > > > <<This country may develope many problems plus the ones we have already, but > > the solution will be homegrown. We have our own power hungry would be > > dictators, so lets be alert to them. We cannot assume Germany in 1940 could > > be our model of retrogression from civilization. We would create our own. > > > > I cannot say strongly enough that this seems to me to be an attempt to > > underplay the actuality of what happened then.>> > > I agree, our problems and " solutions " are all " homegrown " starting with > ourselves and our blinders. " I cannot say strongly enough " that your comments today > are an " attempt to underplay of what's happening in actuality now. " Having > been absent from Jungfire for the last year and a half, when I read your > response to another poster regarding Bush, I thought to myself, " Toni has come > a long way " with an open mind. But I'm not surprised when I see that we all > have blind spots that won't go away until we open our hearts too.... > > > <<There were no excuses then and there are no excuses now. We will > > avoid our own brand of trouble by awareness and and action, not by scaring > > ourselves with false comparisons which unfortunately most Americans would > > discount anyway, as they still discount the Holocaust. > > Please let's think this through and let us not draw comparisons with that > > which has no comparison. The situation may be dire enough as some of you say > > to be kept in mind, but not this way.I will go so far as to say that in my > > opinion this is not an honest assessment.>> > > Whose honest assessment are we talking about here Toni? How many times do we > allow history to repeat itself by sticking our heads in the sand, or hanging > on to history while forgetting about the shrinking geography and population > (brought about by some such thing known as " operation freedom " )? > > > <<A student of history can learn from the past, but must always be wary of > > over -symplification. We are capable of our own brand of stupidity and > > violence.>> > > > Which, in my opinion, we are quite responsible for committing as we speak.... > > Exasperated, > > Ghazaleh > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 In a message dated 6/18/2003 8:24:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, josefa@... writes: > I take Suzanne's earlier point that it is not useful, especially as > Jungians, to demonise the Germans and claim that we in the US (or UK in my > case) could never behave that way - but that wasn't what Toni was saying, at > least as I understood it. She was just trying to point out that, although > she disagrees with the current American government every bit as much as do > most of us (myself absolutely included, and the same goes for our British > government) - we only cheapen our cause by claiming parallels with the > Holocaust. It is nothing less than tawdry emotional propaganda. > > Hi pha, Just for clarity, nobody was claiming parallels with the Holocaust that I'm aware of. Certainly not something I would ever do. The article I posted and others that I have read usually refer to similarities between the current attack on civil liberties, what some think was a stolen election here in the states, etc. with the way Hitler came into power in the early 1930's. Some of these similarities are striking and imo are there as a warning to us to be awake. Nice to have you back. Regards, Suzanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 Dear Toni, you wrote: > Sure, in our paranopia we imprisoned the Japanese Americans and now are > after any Middle Eastern- appearing man. I agree that is terrible, but it is > not quite the dehumanization of 6 million people to the status of > " Untermensch and then nameless horrible death,mechanically perfected, > impersonal > I resent the cheapening of the memories of the Holocaust by comparing it in > any way to the present USA. Thank you for this comment. Although, by the grace of G-d, my parents were safe and prosperous in England rather than having to suffer as you did during WW2, I certainly grew up with " Lest we forget " as a motto. On my Website are photographs taken in the Holocaust museum in Jerusalem (it took me 5 visits before I could hold the camera steady enough to take them). On my first visit, I had to rush to the lavatory to throw up. A kind lady followed me and held my long unruly hair out of my face. To my shame, I noticed that she had a number on her arm, and I apologised to her for being so weak. She said " Please do not apologise. You are here and you feel the horror. Tell others. " I take Suzanne's earlier point that it is not useful, especially as Jungians, to demonise the Germans and claim that we in the US (or UK in my case) could never behave that way - but that wasn't what Toni was saying, at least as I understood it. She was just trying to point out that, although she disagrees with the current American government every bit as much as do most of us (myself absolutely included, and the same goes for our British government) - we only cheapen our cause by claiming parallels with the Holocaust. It is nothing less than tawdry emotional propaganda. fa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 In a message dated 6/19/2003 9:24:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, awalker@... writes: > <So I was in no > small way disturbed by what I understood as a repudiation of my > awareness by Suzanne's energetic assertion that the parallels people > were drawing were invalid and disrespectful. > > Hello , All: > Again, for the sake of clarity, I was the one who posted the article asking > us to look at the similarities between some of the policies and trends of > our current administration with those of the demise of the Weimar Republic and > 1930s Germany. I also meant no disrespect to the victims of the Holocaust or > to the American people or to this country which I very much love. It is > perhaps because of my German heritage that I feel a sense of responsibility to > bear witness to and speak out against what I see as real dangers to our > democracy. I have the utmost respect for the person who wrote the article I posted > and for other historians and political scientists who have dared to heed the > warning. I do not think it is an exaggeration or disrespectful to make > these comparisons. The comparison is not between Bush and Hitler as > people but between government policies; changes in the law, the loss of civil > liberties, the foreign policy changes, the war in Iraq, the keeping of prisoners > without charges or access to a lawyer, the propaganda and corporate take over > of the media, lack of access to information about what is going on. All of > this and more happened on an incremental and daily slide toward fascism in > 1930s Germany and paved the way for Hitler to take power. We kid ourselves if > we think it couldn't happen here and if we continue to sleepwalk and allow the > dissolution of our freedom we could indeed wake up one day and find > ourselves living in a police state. People write these articles and are making these > comparisons in the hope that we will wake up and demand the government take a > different course before that happens. > Given all of that I can understand how somebody who has survived the > Holocaust or lost family in Nazi Germany would find this comparison difficult on any > level. > > Regards, > > Suzanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 > Hi pha, > > Just for clarity, nobody was claiming parallels with the Holocaust > that I'm aware of. > Certainly not something I would ever do. The article I posted and > Iothers that have read usually refer to similarities between the > current attack on civil liberties, what some think was a stolen > election here in the states, etc. with the way Hitler came into > power in the early 1930's. Some of these similarities are > striking and imo are there as a warning to us to be awake. Thanks to both of you for approaching some clarity on this. I've been watching the political tendencies that people are now finding alarming since the early '70's and providing people, (including my parents) with what they considered cause to call me crazy by occaisionally calling attetnion to the " dark clouds on the horizon " . So I was in no small way disturbed by what I understood as a repudiation of my awareness by Suzanne's egnergetic assertion that the parallels people were drawing were invalid and disrespectful. I think it's very important to identify and discuss parallels in the US with the developing yeasrs of the 3rd Reich unless we want to doom ourselves to " ...what we don't learn from history, we must repeat... " . I think this is not just a matter of political awareness, but an area of discussion and learning that can be enhanced by discussion of the Jungian perspective (particularly where demonization of Germany has been a consistent, observable part of a US pattern of denial that we can do what they did). And lest there be any confusion about my motivation, it's out of the most profound respect for the victims of the 3rd Reich that I want to do all I can to prevent US from going down the same shameful road. ....And I also, echo, > Nice to have you back. APMW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 Suzanne, Toni, all, > > Hi pha, > > Just for clarity, nobody was claiming parallels with the Holocaust that I'm > aware of. > Certainly not something I would ever do. The article I posted and others that > I have read usually refer to similarities between the current attack on civil > liberties, what some think was a stolen election here in the states, etc. > with the way Hitler came into power in the early 1930's. Some of these > similarities are striking and imo are there as a warning to us to be awake. Nice to > have you back. > > Regards, > > Suzanne Thank you for the clarification (and everyone for the welcomes back - and I was only gone 10 days!). I certainly take your point about the enfringements upon civil liberties, which concerns me every bit as much as it does you. However, I still think that the analogy with Nazi Germany is somewhat far-fetched. Perhaps it would be more useful to draw analogies with the McCarthy era? This gets a mention from time to time here, but has not really been explored in depth on this list. Could those who actually lived through it make a comment here? I only know it from history books, but it seems a much closer parallel to what is going on now, fuelled as it was by paranoia. Nazi Germany was, I feel, different, in that Hitler was, from the very first, determined to anihilate the Jews. Has anyone other than me actually read _Mein Kampf_? Hitler wrote this in prison in the 1920's, and he made his intentions towards the Jews perfectly clear. Bush, on the other hand, (like McCarthy) is fuelled by fear (bordering on delusion) rather than hatred. It could well end in a similar effect, but the root cause is different. I appreciate Suzanne's good intentions in posting the original article and do not wish to suggest that she was in any way wrong to do so. It is regrettable that this thread has been used by certain elements who wish to use this list to promote the PLO, but that was in no way Suzanne's doing. Just so that everybody knows, I am not reading any posts sent by " Americans " or others who support the PLO, and have made my feelings on the subject very clear to Alice. I do not support everything done by Jews in Israel (and have always said so) - I no longer support Likud (although I have done in the past) - and am very sad that Mitzvah was not elected as President last year. However, the PLO is a terrorist organisation, whereas the Israeli army, faults notwithstanding, is not. I am deeply saddened to see people on a Jung list, of all places, supporting terrorism. fa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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