Re: Hello everyone (making a phone call)

[Guest guest]

Wendi:

> I have a major problem with making phone calls, especially about myself. Well, I finally got up the nerve to call to find out how much it would cost to get a dx.

> Not one person who could answer my question was in today. They say to call at 9am tomorrow.

> That’s just great.

> I wonder when the next time I’ll work up that nerve will be? Another couple of years?

I know that frustrating feeling. For me it is not nerve that has to be worked up, but physical ability to use my voice. To try to explain that just because I can talk now, does not mean I can talk tomorrow (or again this week/month) is not something NTs show a lof of understanding for.

Can you not get someone else to make the phone call for you?

Inger

[Guest guest]

I think one of the most difficult things about making the first call

to see a counselor is that the person making the call ASSUMES and

BELIEVES that s/he is abnormal and will be regarded as such. And

given the way society sees people who go to therapy, this is not an

unfounded fear. It's a fair bet that if you happen to call into some

large office with a secretary, that the secretary himself or herself

will not have had psychological training and will thus regard you

that way, having not been purged of stereotypes and prejudices as

trained professionals have. Additionally, many councelors themselves

are also prejudiced.

The terrible thing about therapy is that patients tend to simply

trust that the therapist knows what she or he is doing, and

therefore the patient doesn't recognize that the therapist might be

a poor one until too late. We put too much faith in them from the

get go, and really, therapy cannot be initiated in any other way for

it to succeed. The faster you trust, the sooner progress is made.

If you were going to have a major operation, you would want the best

doctor you could find, but when seeking therapy, most people just

take whatever they can find, or whatever insurance will pay for.

The thing to remember is that really good therapists and testers

won't regard patients as some sort of reject or crazy person that

has to be locked up. Good therapists and good evaluators will be

able to understand you and how you think without prejudices and with

the added weaponry of proper training.

Here is a metaphor to demonstrate what I mean:

Has anyone noticed that when zookeepers or animal trainers have a

bird of prey on their arm they always wear a leather glove or

gauntlet?

Why do you suppose that is?

Most people think it's because a bird of prey has such sharp talons

that keepers and trainers wear the glove to protect themselves from

getting their skin ripped apart.

But that's not true.

When a bird of prey captures an animal, it is true that the bird

digs deep into the prey animal to get a firm hold on it so that it

can carry the bird back to its nest. But a bird on a person's arm

is simply perched there, and its grip is as gentle as a parakeet's.

The keeper wears the glove for the bird's sake. A human's skin is

loose on the arm, causing the bird to slip and rock back and forth,

which is unconmfortable for the bird and makes it nervous, and less

inclined to stay perched. Leather is thick and firm, and stays that

way, even if you move your arm around. So the bird feels more

comfortable. It doesn't need to keep readjusting it's position and

grip.

The danger of birds of prey for keepers and trainers is the beak.

They are razor sharp, and if you piss off a bird that you have

resting on your gauntlet, it will try to tear your ear off or go for

your eyes.

A bird keeper or trainer will seldom if ever touch a bird's head

because they know they would be risking the loss of their fingers. A

strong bird of prey can shear them off like a pruning lopper cuts

through branches. Birds don't like to have their eyes threatened, or

have anything come by their most leathal weapon: Their beak.

Yet how many times have you seen passers by in zoos and whatnot try

to stroke the back of the bird's head? But at the same time, they

keep their hands away from its talons?

A keeper or trainer will only touch a bird's back or its wings,

because the person knows that, even though a bird can whip around

and peck them very fast, a bird is unlikely to as long as it's beak

and eyes are not threatened.

This is how animal keepers can freely get in and out of the cages of

dangerous animals unscathed and why any " normal " person will get

ripped to shreds. Animal keepers have the training and

understanding to deal with animals appropriately. To get along with

animals, you have to know them, understand them, and you have to

respect them. Respecting them is the most important thing. If you

respect them and their rights, they will respect you. An animal will

never TRUST you, nor should you TRUST that animal (we are too

different to be able to understand one another completely, thus

trust is not advisable), but if you can do everything else, you will

be fine.

Therapy ought to be the same way in an ideal world, the difference

being that the patient has to initially place PERHAPS too much trust

in the therapist.

This can be nerve-wracking, but it probably has to be done.

That's my opinion, anyway.

Tom

> Wendi,

>

> I understand what you are saying. What helped me in dealing with

this was

> that I have been seeing councilors for much of my life. That all

started when I

> was about 9 or 10 when my parent's got a divorce. My father was

trying to get

> custody at that time and had me go to these people for tests and

all that to

> see if " my mother was messing me up " . Of course it turned out she

wasn't and

> that I was mature for my years. For many years after that I went

to

> councilors, mostly just to have someone I could talk to that was

on my level.

> After I learned about AS, it wasn't hard for me to talk to

them about

> this and get my DX. I think you can make the call, and a lot

sooner than in a

> few years. You did it once and that was a big step. It should be

even easier

> to call the next time. Going for the test will probably be kind

of rough as

> well, but again, the first visit is the worst. Bearing that in

mind, you might

> want to go just for a visit to talk to the staff before you

actually take the

> test. That way, when you actually go for the test, there won't be

as much

> stress. Less stress means you will perform better and more

accurately on the

> test. Also bear in mind that any such test is a snapshot of you at

that one

> moment. I have taken tests a few times and had slightly different

results each

> time, which I think was related to my state of mind at that given

time.

> Still, I think you can do it. It won't be the easiest thing

in the

> world, but doing it will make you feel better and can help you

learn to handle the

> less helpful aspects of AS.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks everyone for

your input.

I’ve promised

myself I will not type any more until I’m out of this rotten mood... made

a mess of things today already... more soon.

Wendi

[Guest guest]

> I think one of the most difficult things about making the first

call

> to see a counselor is that the person making the call ASSUMES and

> BELIEVES that s/he is abnormal and will be regarded as such. And

> given the way society sees people who go to therapy, this is not an

> unfounded fear. It's a fair bet that if you happen to call into

some

> large office with a secretary, that the secretary himself or

herself

> will not have had psychological training and will thus regard you

> that way, having not been purged of stereotypes and prejudices as

> trained professionals have. Additionally, many councelors

themselves

> are also prejudiced.

>

> The terrible thing about therapy is that patients tend to simply

> trust that the therapist knows what she or he is doing, and

> therefore the patient doesn't recognize that the therapist might be

> a poor one until too late. We put too much faith in them from the

> get go, and really, therapy cannot be initiated in any other way

for

> it to succeed. The faster you trust, the sooner progress is made.

>

> If you were going to have a major operation, you would want the

best

> doctor you could find, but when seeking therapy, most people just

> take whatever they can find, or whatever insurance will pay for.

>

> The thing to remember is that really good therapists and testers

> won't regard patients as some sort of reject or crazy person that

> has to be locked up. Good therapists and good evaluators will be

> able to understand you and how you think without prejudices and

with

> the added weaponry of proper training.

>

> Here is a metaphor to demonstrate what I mean:

>

> Has anyone noticed that when zookeepers or animal trainers have a

> bird of prey on their arm they always wear a leather glove or

> gauntlet?

>

> Why do you suppose that is?

>

> Most people think it's because a bird of prey has such sharp talons

> that keepers and trainers wear the glove to protect themselves from

> getting their skin ripped apart.

>

> But that's not true.

>

> When a bird of prey captures an animal, it is true that the bird

> digs deep into the prey animal to get a firm hold on it so that it

> can carry the bird back to its nest. But a bird on a person's arm

> is simply perched there, and its grip is as gentle as a

parakeet's.

> The keeper wears the glove for the bird's sake. A human's skin is

> loose on the arm, causing the bird to slip and rock back and forth,

> which is unconmfortable for the bird and makes it nervous, and less

> inclined to stay perched. Leather is thick and firm, and stays

that

> way, even if you move your arm around. So the bird feels more

> comfortable. It doesn't need to keep readjusting it's position and

> grip.

>

> The danger of birds of prey for keepers and trainers is the beak.

> They are razor sharp, and if you piss off a bird that you have

> resting on your gauntlet, it will try to tear your ear off or go

for

> your eyes.

>

> A bird keeper or trainer will seldom if ever touch a bird's head

> because they know they would be risking the loss of their fingers.

A

> strong bird of prey can shear them off like a pruning lopper cuts

> through branches. Birds don't like to have their eyes threatened,

or

> have anything come by their most leathal weapon: Their beak.

>

> Yet how many times have you seen passers by in zoos and whatnot try

> to stroke the back of the bird's head? But at the same time, they

> keep their hands away from its talons?

>

> A keeper or trainer will only touch a bird's back or its wings,

> because the person knows that, even though a bird can whip around

> and peck them very fast, a bird is unlikely to as long as it's beak

> and eyes are not threatened.

>

> This is how animal keepers can freely get in and out of the cages

of

> dangerous animals unscathed and why any " normal " person will get

> ripped to shreds. Animal keepers have the training and

> understanding to deal with animals appropriately. To get along with

> animals, you have to know them, understand them, and you have to

> respect them. Respecting them is the most important thing. If you

> respect them and their rights, they will respect you. An animal

will

> never TRUST you, nor should you TRUST that animal (we are too

> different to be able to understand one another completely, thus

> trust is not advisable), but if you can do everything else, you

will

> be fine.

>

> Therapy ought to be the same way in an ideal world, the difference

> being that the patient has to initially place PERHAPS too much

trust

> in the therapist.

>

> This can be nerve-wracking, but it probably has to be done.

>

> That's my opinion, anyway.

>

> Tom

>

Hi Tom,

your reply to this post really brought up a lot of memories for me.

Previously I have seen a counsellor and I believe it helped me in the

respect that it helped me become more self aware (double edged

knife/sword, whatever?), but in retrospect some aspects were not

helpful. At the time I saw the counsellor I had trouble talking to

anyone, including the counsellor and opening up. The counsellor did

me this nice diagram with 'overwhelmed by emotions' written in the

middle and things coming off from this like 'not in touch with

emotions', but she never explained how to get in touch with my

emotions. She also said that my emotions came out later at

innapropriate times. This information without knowing what to do

about it or with it was not helpful.

As for the birds of prey; when I was very little a neighbour kept

some sort of bird of prey. At the time it seemed very big to me and I

remember it eating fluffy yellow chicks. It's eyes scared me the

most. When I had to call on this neighbour I remember inching up

along the wall to their door, as this bird was kept chained up in

their back yard. It's eyes would follow me like a hawk and stare

intently at me, I was scared it would fly toward me and attack me and

I didn't know how far it's chain could reach. Thinking about it the

same family had a parrot that had plucked itself practically bald, so

maybe the family was having some affect on these animals/birds?

bye 4 now,

[Guest guest]

> Hi Tom,

>

> your reply to this post really brought up a lot of memories for

me. Previously I have seen a counsellor and I believe it helped me

in the respect that it helped me become more self aware (double

edged knife/sword, whatever?), but in retrospect some aspects were

not helpful. At the time I saw the counsellor I had trouble talking

to anyone, including the counsellor and opening up. The counsellor

did me this nice diagram with 'overwhelmed by emotions' written in

the middle and things coming off from this like 'not in touch with

emotions', but she never explained how to get in touch with my

emotions. She also said that my emotions came out later at

innapropriate times. This information without knowing what to do

about it or with it was not helpful.

I'm sorry to hear about that experience, and I probably should have

been more fair when I posted. It sounds like your counsellor knew

what she was doing to a good extent and proved helpful to a degree,

but then dropped the ball at the most critical juncture.

I guess it needs to be stated that no therapist is infalible either

and some can do more harm than good. She probably had the best of

intentions though, even if she didn't execute like she should have.

My zoo's ape house recently was torn down and rebuilt. It was a

multi-million dollar project. Every aspect (they thought) of

primate behavior was studied, and the new facilities were

constructed with two things in mind:

1) To be able to further facilitate natural primate behavior.

2) To keep the apes occupied with lost of diversions and activities.

As an upper level member of the zoo, I had the benefit of attending

a members' only grand opening of the new great ape house, and since

I visit the zoo regularly, I know most of the keepers by name. So i

talked with one of them who asked me what I thought of the new house.

Now, they tried really hard and the result was better than most I've

seen. All the apes had access to indoor and outdoor habitats. The

outdoor habitats were loaded with real trees (dead and alive) and

fake trees, vines, real and fake bamboo, logs, caves, ponds, termite

mounds (with sticks for termite " fishing " expeditions, waterfalls,

and lots of nooks and cranies to explore.

The inside of the habitat was new and innovative in that, in

addition to having lots of things to climb on and nest in, the

concrete floors had been done away with and replaced with a super-

thick layer of mulch. This was innovative because apes in captivity

tend to develop either bow-leggedness or early arthritis from

walking all their lives on concrete.

What could be wrong with this habitat?

No simulated rain.

Why should this matter?

Well, apes tend to give off different smells based on their

emotions, and, when apes are uncleaned (unrained) their natural body

odors tend to cloud the emotional odors that are being given off,

thus confusing other apes, or not impressing them with the EXTENT of

the emotion which is usually based on how powerful the smell being

given off is.

Apes in captivity who have access to outdoor habitats tend to come

in out of the rain, but apes in the wild have no choice. They get

clean whether they like it or not.

The keepers said that simulated rain would have caused the indoor

habitat to be constantly wet, which would cause mold to grow in the

mulch and cause the apes to be constantly sick.

I pointed out that a rubber floor would have kept the apes from

developing bowleggedness and arthritis, would be easy to clean, and

would have allowed the apes to still get their showers and be

relatively clean. then, the apes would be more likely to exhibit

natural tendancies since their natural smells would be in proper

proportion to their natural body odors.

The keepers replied by saying that rubber floors wouldn't have

impressed the visitors.

So here is a case where the keepers have the best interests of the

apes at heart, but at the same time DON'T have the best interests of

the apes at heart.

I imagine therapists can do the same, either out of ignorance,

intentionally, or because they THINK they are doing the right thing

when in fact they aren't.

> As for the birds of prey; when I was very little a neighbour kept

some sort of bird of prey. At the time it seemed very big to me and

I remember it eating fluffy yellow chicks. It's eyes scared me the

most. When I had to call on this neighbour I remember inching up

along the wall to their door, as this bird was kept chained up in

their back yard. It's eyes would follow me like a hawk and stare

intently at me, I was scared it would fly toward me and attack me

and I didn't know how far it's chain could reach. Thinking about it

the same family had a parrot that had plucked itself practically

bald, so maybe the family was having some affect on these

animals/birds?

> bye 4 now,

>

That's a scary memory and I can easily see how it could have

followed you this far down the road. Your fears were probably very

on the money for one reason and one reason only, which, oddly

enough, is probably not what you'd expect. I'll get to in a moment.

First you need to understand that the statement that " animals can

sense fear " is only partly correct. They can sense fear in us to a

limited to degree, but mostly, animals tend to be reactive to us in

terms of behaviors that they see rather than what they are guessing

we think or feel.

If your were to encounter a mountain lion or wolf, for example,

chances are you would do one of three things:

1) Run

In which case you would trigger the " follow, trip, kill " instinct in

them and they would chase you down and attack.

2) Instinctively assume a defensive posture, which means you would

be slightly hunched over, fists balled, muscles tensed.

In which case the mountain lion or wolf would view this as the

classic " preparing to spring " stance and the animals, figuring that

the only chance it has against you would be to spring first, would

attack.

3) Instictively assume a " fear " posture (i.e. the frozen in terror

stance) which would mean standing straight, muscles tense, mouth

open, eyes wide.

In which case you would be attacked. Dogs bare their fangs when

about to attack, and your open mouth and tensed jaw would be

regarded as inflamatory and aggressive. The same with cats.

What about birds?

Probably while it was watching you, it was just taking an interest

in you AT FIRST. But you have to keep in mind, though the bird

seemed big to you at the time, you seemed very big to it. And if,

while you were inching along (which is very suspicious to a bird of

prey who had observed other people moving hurriedly to and from

their destinations) you were presenting your full body to the bird,

it would have seen you as preparing to attack.

Still, the bird didn't attack you, which suggests that if it was

watching you, it was more from an evaluative standpoint.

But I know what you mean. Big birds can sometimes be creepy. In

college I was lying in the grass reading a book near the pond, and

when I looked up, I was surrounded by Canadian Geese who had

all " snuck " up on me very quietly. Very scary (until I stood up).

Tom