Re: Hillar as archetypal witch

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/13/2003 11:00:44 AM Central Daylight Time,

anonymous_animus@... writes:

> Why does Hillary Clinton get so much of the " evil

> witch " projection from some people? I know it's not

> just her political policies, it's something deeper and

> more archetypal. Any guesses?

>

I hate it when anyone cries discrimination or prejudice or skin color or

gender when there are inequalities and yet, I think this is the case here. Same

with Martha who is being indicted for making a " paltry " few thousand

while those male paragons of Enronism go free. And I don't even like Martha.

But I think she's getting shafted.

Both of these women are strong and powerful and not properly submissive. And

then there was Oprah, taken to court for dissing beef. How many men would

that have been done to? There is actually one man (can't recall his name) who

used to be a rancher and has gone vegetarian and who wrote a book about the

evils of meat raising and yet he's not been sued.

So, while I'm not sure about Hillary and all her claims, the excess of spite

for her tells me that there definitely is something more than the personal

involved.

What's the opposite of the archetypal witch? A warlock? Who's Hillary's

male counterpart?

Namasté

Sam in Texas §(ô¿ô)§

Minds are like parachutes; they only function when open. - Sir Dewar

A closed mind is a good thing to lose.

" Minds are like parachutes; most people use them only as a last resort. "

~Ben Ostrowsky

Some minds are like concrete, thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.

~mrantho

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/13/2003 12:13:57 PM Central Daylight Time,

lwhitlow@... writes:

> A strong, outspoken woman is a threat to the power of " the Fathers, " and to

> women who identify with them.

I think these ladies are called " uppity women. " *WEG*

Namasté

Sam in Texas §(ô¿ô)§

Minds are like parachutes; they only function when open. - Sir Dewar

A closed mind is a good thing to lose.

" Minds are like parachutes; most people use them only as a last resort. "

~Ben Ostrowsky

Some minds are like concrete, thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.

~mrantho

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/13/2003 12:51:36 PM Central Daylight Time,

toni.toni2@... writes:

> To my horror I have seen over the last half century, that it is the women

> who are intimidated and who consciously discredit other " strong " women.

>

> I see many of this worlds ambitious, intelligent and strong-minded women

> being harassed by the rest of womanhood. jealousy?envy?fear?lack of self

> esteem? I don't really know the reasons, but I know many women " bosses " for

> example or those high up the corporate ladder who find no solidarity with

> the rest of the female population.

>

Yup. Shaking up the status quo doesn't know gender. Status quo too long =

staleness = death. Growth out of that rut is painful for many, if not most.

And few recognize it for what it is, staying alive, as the song went. Life

will not tolerate permanent passivity but requires that it take its turn with

action.

Namasté

Sam in Texas §(ô¿ô)§

Minds are like parachutes; they only function when open. - Sir Dewar

A closed mind is a good thing to lose.

" Minds are like parachutes; most people use them only as a last resort. "

~Ben Ostrowsky

Some minds are like concrete, thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.

~mrantho

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/13/2003 1:39:43 PM Central Daylight Time,

IonaDove@... writes:

> She's a Scorpio!

>

Ah!

[Guest guest]

You know guys, It isn't just the men that have a problem with Hillary or any

" strong " woman.

To my horror I have seen over the last half century, that it is the women

who are intimidated and who consciously discredit other " strong " women.

I see many of this worlds ambitious, intelligent and strong-minded women

being harassed by the rest of womanhood. jealousy?envy?fear?lack of self

esteem? I don't really know the reasons, but I know many women " bosses " for

example or those high up the corporate ladder who find no solidarity with

the rest of the female population.

I am overgeneralizing, I know, but of course men fear women that make them

feel inadequate, but so do women. Instead of admiring and cheering on those

who try to make changes in society who happen to be women, we do end up with

a " conspiracy " so to speak, of detractors. We love these women when they are

brought low or at least brought down to what we think of as " our " level.

I doubt it is " male " nature, more like human nature, I am afraid. Ask any

forceful, intelligent, dynamic women like those on this list. :-)

Toni

Re: Hillar as archetypal witch

In a message dated 6/13/2003 11:00:44 AM Central Daylight Time,

anonymous_animus@... writes:

> Why does Hillary Clinton get so much of the " evil

> witch " projection from some people? I know it's not

> just her political policies, it's something deeper and

> more archetypal. Any guesses?

>

I hate it when anyone cries discrimination or prejudice or skin color or

gender when there are inequalities and yet, I think this is the case here.

Same

with Martha who is being indicted for making a " paltry " few thousand

while those male paragons of Enronism go free. And I don't even like

Martha.

But I think she's getting shafted.

Both of these women are strong and powerful and not properly submissive.

And

then there was Oprah, taken to court for dissing beef. How many men would

that have been done to? There is actually one man (can't recall his name)

who

used to be a rancher and has gone vegetarian and who wrote a book about the

evils of meat raising and yet he's not been sued.

So, while I'm not sure about Hillary and all her claims, the excess of spite

for her tells me that there definitely is something more than the personal

involved.

What's the opposite of the archetypal witch? A warlock? Who's Hillary's

male counterpart?

Namasté

Sam in Texas §(ô¿ô)§

[Guest guest]

Toni - I agree - there are certainly women out there who undermine other women.

I've seen it many times. Patriarchy is a disease that affects both women and

men. And, certainly, there are many men who are not patriarchal! The archetype

of the Witch/Bitch is here to stay, but I look forward to a time when positive

archetypes are more readily projected onto strong women. (And, Alice, I think

that some of Hillary's social and political blunders may have much to do with

her sign of Scorpio, and with the fact that she herself has operated in a " man's

world " - law and politics - for so long.) I am not saying that " Wise Woman " is

the archetype that I would associate with Hillary Clinton (!) - I would much

more likely attribute that title to Alice, and to other women that I am

privileged to know. Perhaps Hillary is more of an " Athena " type?

Re: Hillar as archetypal witch

In a message dated 6/13/2003 11:00:44 AM Central Daylight Time,

anonymous_animus@... writes:

> Why does Hillary Clinton get so much of the " evil

> witch " projection from some people? I know it's not

> just her political policies, it's something deeper and

> more archetypal. Any guesses?

>

I hate it when anyone cries discrimination or prejudice or skin color or

gender when there are inequalities and yet, I think this is the case here.

Same

with Martha who is being indicted for making a " paltry " few thousand

while those male paragons of Enronism go free. And I don't even like

Martha.

But I think she's getting shafted.

Both of these women are strong and powerful and not properly submissive.

And

then there was Oprah, taken to court for dissing beef. How many men would

that have been done to? There is actually one man (can't recall his name)

who

used to be a rancher and has gone vegetarian and who wrote a book about the

evils of meat raising and yet he's not been sued.

So, while I'm not sure about Hillary and all her claims, the excess of spite

for her tells me that there definitely is something more than the personal

involved.

What's the opposite of the archetypal witch? A warlock? Who's Hillary's

male counterpart?

Namasté

Sam in Texas §(ô¿ô)§

[Guest guest]

My favorite feminist on the junior senator from New York:

http://www.drudgereport.com/paglia.htm

Dan

[Guest guest]

Dan -

Yikes - that is scarey!

Re: Hillar as archetypal witch

My favorite feminist on the junior senator from New York:

http://www.drudgereport.com/paglia.htm

Dan

[Guest guest]

Dear Greg,

You wrote:

>

>

> The assertion that Hillary was " under few illusions "

> is as speculative as to suggest that the author must

> indeed be omniscient or psychic.

Strictly speaking, you may be right, but the idea that Sen. Clinton, at least at

that point in her marriage, was still the trusting but duped, wronged

spouse, is pretty hard to swallow. First, because there had been so many " bimbo

eruptions " in the past, and second, because she seems like an awfully

sharp, hard-nosed, intelligent and even slightly paranoid person to be taken in

so easily. I'll bet that it is awfully hard to put one over on her.

Regards,

Dan Watkins

[Guest guest]

Dan,

Our personal memories of the past, especially very emotional ones are always

altered as we relive the experience.I know from my own experience. I wrote

my autobiography and when my sister read it she said she didn't remember

what I said to be true, in some instances we were both involved in..

We are not lying, when we write about our pasts, but everything remembered

is so overlaiden with still present emotions that we can only say " this is

my experience " for so it is.

Why not, for once, Dan, give someone the benefit of the doubt. You cannot

know how Hillary felt or if her memory is objectively true or not. it is

what she remembers of her personal experience that is the subject of this

book.

Your judgment of her paranoia is simply that. It will be a long time before

she is either proven right or wrong. You have no proof and can only

interpret what you think she suffers from.

If we were all judged as harshly as you judge those you do not like, none of

us, including you would turn out to be very nice people.

Toni

Re: Hillar as archetypal witch

> Dear Greg,

>

> You wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > The assertion that Hillary was " under few illusions "

> > is as speculative as to suggest that the author must

> > indeed be omniscient or psychic.

>

> Strictly speaking, you may be right, but the idea that Sen. Clinton, at

least at that point in her marriage, was still the trusting but duped,

wronged

> spouse, is pretty hard to swallow. First, because there had been so many

" bimbo eruptions " in the past, and second, because she seems like an awfully

> sharp, hard-nosed, intelligent and even slightly paranoid person to be

taken in so easily. I'll bet that it is awfully hard to put one over on her.

>

> Regards,

>

> Dan Watkins

>

>

>

>

> " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings

may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering. "

>

> H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Toni,

You wrote:

> Dan,

>

>

>

> Your judgment of her paranoia is simply that.

What about the " vast rightwing conspiracy? " Or do you think that was only

rhetoric? It may be so.

> It will be a long time before

> she is either proven right or wrong. You have no proof and can only

> interpret what you think she suffers from.

I don't claim to have proof. I can only suss the odds based on what I know. That

said, I think I can see that she is a consummate politician. You

don't get where she is by misjudging people, or by underestimating their

capacity for betrayal, back-stabbing and general injustice. As somebody said,

" politics ain't beanbag. "

>

>

> If we were all judged as harshly as you judge those you do not like, none of

> us, including you would turn out to be very nice people.

What harsh? The woman's made of brass and iron - and to my way of thinking, that

is a compliment. I'd be afraid of her if I had anything to do with

her, but at the same time I can't deny that I have some grudging admiration for

her (same with Martha, who is I suspect getting a raw deal).

Regards,

Dan

>

>