Re: essiac challenge

January 1, 1970

....and the word care is akin to the Old High German 'kara', meaning lament.

Which is what we now seem to be doing over this question. It is also akin to

the Latin 'garrire', meaning chatter, the herbalists job description!

Hit the nail right on the head .

From a right head Caisse MNIMH

November 15, 2002

Hi

I used Essiac on a relative who was sent home to die from bone cancer, being

given only a few weeks to a few months to live. I was a trained nurse but it

was before I had trained as a herbalist. The bone cancer was spread all over

his body and he could hardly hold a conversation, and was having great

difficulty concentrating and was hardly able to walk. As I had nothing to

lose I tried numerous natural treatments on him, one of which was the essiac

that had been brought over from Canada for me by another relative. In the

literature that came with it it described how healing can result in a

weeping or oozing externally of the cancer. Slowly slowly this ill relative

appeared to get better, able to talk better etc. Surprisingly after a few

weeks he called me over to see an area of oozing that appeared on his neck.

I inspected it and noted that it appeared to be a clear non-offensive

liquid. This continued for a few days and then stopped. This relative got so

much better he was virtually back to his old self and was able to go ahead

and build a new house even. A later bone scan showed that the cancer had

retreated from the spinal and cranial areas and a large breast lump also

disappeared. Sadly there was not a completely happy ending as he also then,

in order to give both conventional and natural methods a try, took a

prescribed drug that was hepatoxic and it damaged his liver. The resultant

nausea he suffered caused him to stop taking the herbs and the cancer

symptoms returned and he died.

Obviously this is only an anecdotal report and I cannot ascribe results to

the essiac as many other herbs, diet changes etc were used. Definitely not

using verifiable pathological criteria as you put it but I can say that in

my time working in the oncology wards as a nurse, I never personally saw any

spontaneous remission using the aggressive treatments available, although

such cases obviously do exist. I feel you need to be careful with ones

dismissal of treatments only because there is no clear scientific proof of

its validity as when you think of it, so many of our herbs still have only

traditional usage as a recommendation. With regard to your words: <with

characteristic lack of politeness – “put up or shut up”> . Yes you are right

it is not polite and it does not suggest an openness of mind, which I feel

is so important for herbalists so that we don’t become too bound by

conventional views and restriction that could inhibit our opportunity for

growth and learning.

Niki

>Reply-To: ukherbal-list

>To: ukherbal-list

>Subject: essiac challenge

>Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 08:37:26 -0800

>

>i challenge anyone on this list who is prescribing " essiac " to

>provide a documented, provable case from their files (or anyone

>elses) using verifiable pathological criteria of a single case of any

>cancer which demonstrates a significant effect by that formula.

>

>as they say over here with characteristic lack of politesse - " put up

>or shut up "

>

>--

> Treasure,

>Partners For Health,

>525 East Main Street,

>Ashland,

>OR 97520

>tel

>fax

>http://www.partnersforhealth.net

_________________________________________________________________

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November 16, 2002

>Hi

>

>I used Essiac on a relative who was sent home to die from bone cancer, being

>given only a few weeks to a few months to live.

>SNIP

> and he died.

>

>Obviously this is only an anecdotal report and I cannot ascribe results to

>the essiac as many other herbs, diet changes etc were used.

Well Niki,

as you say, unfortunately the case demonstrates nothing at all about Essiac.

> I never personally saw any

>spontaneous remission using the aggressive treatments available,

>although such cases obviously do exist

generally the term " spontaneous remission " does not actually belong

with the results seen from agressive conventional interventions.

spontaneous remission is precisely that, reversal of disease

unrelated to or unexplained by any biomedical intervention.

spontaneous remission occurs with some regularity, and is the biggest

confounding factor in attempting to assess the effectiveness of

alternative treatments...it relates very simply to the

numerator/denominator factor. ( if in any given sample, a number of

spontaneous remissions occur, then to prove the claim for a

treatment, you have to increase the sample size to the point where

the probablity of SR can be excluded as a factor)

>I feel you need to be careful with ones

>dismissal of treatments only because there is no clear scientific proof of

>its validity as when you think of it,

Actually, you are wrong. When you are dealing with stage 4 cancer

patients on a daily basis, (or any other basis) you need to be

really clear about the effectiveness of various proposed treatments

(if you are proposing them) They want to know that. Very often they

are spiritually developed and taking very good care of the mind-body

connection in a number of ways (they are dealing with their death and

are way ahead of the curve here )....the point being it is not really

relevant to be having rather wooly theoretical discussions about the

role of ritual in herb preparation as a possible healing component of

essiac. Ritual is ritual. Of course ritual has a part to play. Just

be clear what you are talking about.

> so many of our herbs still have only

>traditional usage as a recommendation.

confusing the issue. essiac is marketed and promoted as a cancer cure

- which is misleading and irresponsible . Rene Caisse was not a

" traditional herbalist " . essiac is not from a known tradition. Nor

is it a question of tradition vs science. ( which in any event is a

phony polarisation since there is junk tradition as much as there is

junk science) it is a question of unsubstantiated claims. ....for

example, the Hoxsey formula at least has some credible and documented

successes, more the point you can still find Hoxsey ex-patients - ie

they are cancer survivors..but you don't get a lot of people going

round marketing the Hoxsey formula or talking about how the real

secret is the mystique of its preparation...etc.

secondly, it is mistaken to assume that if there is really a

" formula " or procedure that may cure cancer out there ...that there

are not a whole bunch of out of the box oncologists who are willing

to examine it with their patients - becuse there is. You name it -

laetrile, Hoxsey, PC-SPES, low dose naltrexone, whatever, I can tell

you about oncologists who have tried them all with dozens of patients

- looked into it, looked into the claims, desperately wanting them to

work. These people often risk their medical licenses to look at this

stuff. The backwardness of cancer care in the Uk is legendary, and

that certainly includes investigation of alternative treatments,

currently the subject of multi million dollar research funding in the

US.

(of course there is also a multi billion dollar pharmaceutical

industry exploiting cancer patients for profit too....)

> With regard to your words: <with

>characteristic lack of politeness – “put up or shut up”> . Yes you are right

>it is not polite and it does not suggest an openness of mind,

that's your interpretation . i think you are wrong about amerikan

open mindedness - in my experience over a number of years here is

that despite the uncomfortable lack of drawing room manners that may

accompany it, the " directness " of socio-cultural discourse here

is invariably an expression of real openness and pursuit of inquiry

rather than condescending british superiority that often conceals

ignorance..or fear. i have learnt to respect it enormously actually.

i have encountered far more effective out of the box " praxis " here

than in the UK...in herbalism and life in general and i find it a

welcome relief ....

> which I feel

>is so important for herbalists so that we don’t become too bound by

>conventional views and restriction that could inhibit our opportunity for

>growth and learning.

quite so.

--

jonathan treasure, MNIMH AHG

November 16, 2002

Hi

Thank you for your reply. It sounds as if you have worked with a lot of

cancer patients. If you feel patients need to be really clear about the

effectiveness of various proposed treatments then do you have any specific

proposed treatments and if so can I ask what they may be?

<that's your interpretation . i think you are wrong about amerikan