Re: Finding WMD in Iraq - does it matter?

April 6, 2003

Dan. you are impossible! What wou;ld Jung do?you answered and I am answering

you,

No he wouldn't! He would feel the way some of us here feel...sick.

We killed 54 people, military by friendly fire today. Go about our

business.????..only if we are in the praying, suffering business. Jung was

after all a spiritual person. he would suffer just as he did in World War l

WW ll.

I know you have a real heart someplace, but sometimes you keep it well

hidden.

WE have a lot of women, mothers to weep for on all sides of this war. But to

be killed by friendly fire again...we have lost more soldiers, American and

British in friendly fire than in enemy fire.

I wonder what this could mean? Trickster at it? our shadow side showing in

the blazing sun?

" What is hidden in the dark must be spoken in the light "

Toni

April 6, 2003

Toni, all:

This brings up the notion of hubris. Let¹s look at what Jung has to say

about hubris now that mistakes like the deaths from friendly fire escalate,

gaining momentum, every day in this war. Maybe Dan could throw some of his

positivism at the notion of ³revolutionary hubris², you know the way Russia

was revolutionized by the communists who held that the general population

would eventually realize it was for their own good. I must look up my

ex-husband¹s book that looks at Marxism as a religion. Toni, you should

have a vast storehouse of knowledge about hubris from your Catholic

background (grin).

In the dance,

Frances

> Dan. you are impossible! What wou;ld Jung do?you answered and I am answering

> you,

>

> No he wouldn't! He would feel the way some of us here feel...sick.

> We killed 54 people, military by friendly fire today. Go about our

> business.????..only if we are in the praying, suffering business. Jung was

> after all a spiritual person. he would suffer just as he did in World War l

> WW ll.

> I know you have a real heart someplace, but sometimes you keep it well

> hidden.

>

> WE have a lot of women, mothers to weep for on all sides of this war. But to

> be killed by friendly fire again...we have lost more soldiers, American and

> British in friendly fire than in enemy fire.

> I wonder what this could mean? Trickster at it? our shadow side showing in

> the blazing sun?

>

> " What is hidden in the dark must be spoken in the light "

>

> Toni

>

April 7, 2003

Dear Toni,

I didn't say he wouldn't suffer (although I'm not sure that he would make a big

show of bleeding his heart all over the place for others to see and

admire, as some in the media and elsewhere seem tempted to do) but I think that

he would nonetheless go about his business - as, indeed, he did in

WWII (a war worthy of the appellation).

Friendly fire casualties are part of the tragedy of war, esp. modern war. If you

want to pray, pray that it will be over soon - as, in fact, I believe

that it will be.

As for my own heart, well - I am put off by patent nonsense, grown men and women

on T.V. and in the papers talking about worlds without war and other

such stuff. Reality is tough enough to deal with without loading ourselves up

with a bunch of vain and futile hopes and childish wishes.

Hope your husband is feeling better.

Regards,

Dan

Vienna wrote:

> Dan. you are impossible! What wou;ld Jung do?you answered and I am answering

> you,

>

> No he wouldn't! He would feel the way some of us here feel...sick.

> We killed 54 people, military by friendly fire today. Go about our

> business.????..only if we are in the praying, suffering business. Jung was

> after all a spiritual person. he would suffer just as he did in World War l

> WW ll.

> I know you have a real heart someplace, but sometimes you keep it well

> hidden.

>

> WE have a lot of women, mothers to weep for on all sides of this war. But to

> be killed by friendly fire again...we have lost more soldiers, American and

> British in friendly fire than in enemy fire.

> I wonder what this could mean? Trickster at it? our shadow side showing in

> the blazing sun?

>

> " What is hidden in the dark must be spoken in the light "

>

> Toni

>

> " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings may

be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering. "

>

> H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama

>

April 7, 2003

Dear Frances,

I don't know what you mean by my " positivism " (certainly I am anything but a

logical positivist). However that may be, that Marxism (like all

teachings that hold out hope for the final perfecting of mankind) was and is

nonsense should have been apparent enough to those, like Jung, who took

seriously the ancient Western literary tradition as something other than a

collection of quaint antiquities. One might also learn, in those selfsame

books, something of the (severe) limitations of democracy, as did Jung also (or

maybe he just observed them himself - they are obvious enough.)

I saw reported in an article posted on commondreams.org the results of a poll

stating that 38% of American respondents agreed with a statement to the

effect that the U.S. should annex Canada. I didn't verify these results myself,

but they sound about right. Ah, the wisdom of the people! There is

your democracy for you.

Regards,

Dan Watkins

" She was the dancing queen,

Young and sweet, only seventeen. "

Abba

Frances wrote:

> Toni, all:

>

> This brings up the notion of hubris. Let¹s look at what Jung has to say

> about hubris now that mistakes like the deaths from friendly fire escalate,

> gaining momentum, every day in this war. Maybe Dan could throw some of his

> positivism at the notion of ³revolutionary hubris², you know the way Russia

> was revolutionized by the communists who held that the general population

> would eventually realize it was for their own good. I must look up my

> ex-husband¹s book that looks at Marxism as a religion. Toni, you should

> have a vast storehouse of knowledge about hubris from your Catholic

> background (grin).

>

> In the dance,

>

> Frances

>

April 7, 2003

Dear Frances,

How right you are. But my experience comes mostly from myself.It is a daily,

hourly battle.It will always be a battle again the mana personality I once

displayed.

Yes, hubris is the cause of the dreadful errors we commit. We trust our

superior technology too much and think we are invincible. It is all too

obvious where that has brought us. We should all be wearing sackcloth and

ashes for this overweaning human pride in our ability to " think " create and

rationalize this use of our abilities.

As for the Holy Roman Catholic Church...it depends on what level of the

hierarchy one looks at. The farther down under the older priests, the more

hubris. " The Church said it, I say it, that settles it "

Than we have the revamped Holy Office, named changed but Rahner still around

to silence any mere priest and some bishops for daring to say what the whole

world already knows...about outdated doctrine carved in stone.

Some of the best intellectuals within have been silenced...although I

suggest, the people responsible for the silencing haven't a clue about what

the meaning behind these so called forbidden ideas are.

Then there are the Cardinal Laws of the world who still do not " get it' what

is " it " ...the idea that the Church sacrifice others to maintain its

organization put in place (they did change history a little) by Christ.-

The Vatican uses " Opus Dei " to silence renewal or rebellion by being the

Churches hidden gestapo.Like the Republican guards they are fiercly loyal to

the the porganization and its leaders whom they favor.

Even the Pope himself silenced a great Nicarogian a wonderful poet-priest

who accepted a government post i his country to try to clean up corruption.

A shameful act by the Supreme Pontiff earlier in his reign.

Then there is the story of corruption sanctioned by the Church instigated by

Vatican Bank a few years ago.

Not to speak of the Vatican's holdings of stock in weapons companies and the

makers of contraceptives.

All this is public knowledge and most people just shrug their shoulders.All

is forgiven as long as the Church survives.

The college of cardinals is a council of old men too many holding on to

power for their own sakes who should have been forced to retire years ago

because they are out of step with their flock.

Now in spite of all this there are dedicated, holy men who are trying to

serve the 'people of G-d " . As the repository of the Christian tradition the

Church has done a good job for the first 1500 years or so. They, it, can

just not cope with intelligent , aware and educated people in the pews.

I paint with a broad brush because it is a real sin, in my opinion, to

sacrifice human beings for the health of the organization.An oath or vow to

the hierarchy of the organization is not a vow to its announced Lord.

Yes, I know from experience to think one has all the necessary answers,

because after all the Church is headed by Jesus Christ.The horrors committed

in His name are terrible, but many actually were carried out by sincere men

educated in a rigid system.On top of that many human beings are not ready

for more conscious observances and find comfort within its rigid structure.

That is no small thing.

All of us have hubris, all of us suffer from believing we are in the right,

and all of us want to perpetuate whatever situation has given us power.

Unfortunately the young priest in training is subjected to an education

while forced to wear blinders, so the future seems dim. And the biggest sign

of hubris is that no pope will ever rescind any edict from a former pope

however wrong because that would admit the Church's humanity, and cast doubt

on whether the institution is after all infallible.

I could go on and on about its treatment through the ages of women. I won't

because it is well known. it will not change anytime soon because the basic

mindset has not changed.

But then, Frances, are not all human institutions out first to protect the

institution under which many have gained power? We are , all of us, prone to

overzealous use of whatever power and authority we can grab.

Personally within the institution I found what I had originally wanted, the

security, the boundaries and the sacraments. To many ordinary people that is

all they want and need. It was my introduction to the power of the spirit

outside the boundaries of doctrine and dogma, unblessed and fiercely

resisted by the Church that I found the freedom which the Episcopal Church

asserts in its collect : Whose service is perfect freedom " . It is always a

risk, both for the structure of the organization and the individual, when

one has direst access to the Spirit unmediated by Church, law, and judge.(

that was the work of the Charismatic renewal for those who wanted " more "

than the organization was able to give.

Toni

April 7, 2003

Dear Dan,

Well a bleeding heart is a pretty good thing.It is called compassion.

We'll I can certainly agree with the bulk of what you say about " futile

hopes and childish wishes. "

The problem is the real suffering endured by those who only obey the call to

duty. Of course my prayer about this war is really my own inner decision,

but everyone with any sense or love would want it over soonest.

I know all about friendly fire. I married a military man who has personally

seen it, and I have been exposed to Marine Corps indoctrination. neither

really help to make it less awful. Perhaps if we had less pride as Frances

said, we would put less faith in our abilities to conduct a painless

war....or maybe any war.

We will always have wars because unconscious people will always want

violence to solve frustration and anger.I do not think however sticking

one's head in the proverbial sand accomplishes anything but sand in one;s

eyes.

Yes, reality is tough enough to endure...but human beings have always had

the ability to not see whatever reality is painful...and that is , in my

opinion, is denial of the suffering we all share as part of the All.

How can you judge the sincerity of those " whose bleeding hearts " ? We all

express grief ion our own way. let others express theirs without judging its

worth.