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Re: Finding WMD in Iraq - does it matter?

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Dan. you are impossible! What wou;ld Jung do?you answered and I am answering

you,

No he wouldn't! He would feel the way some of us here feel...sick.

We killed 54 people, military by friendly fire today. Go about our

business.????..only if we are in the praying, suffering business. Jung was

after all a spiritual person. he would suffer just as he did in World War l

WW ll.

I know you have a real heart someplace, but sometimes you keep it well

hidden.

WE have a lot of women, mothers to weep for on all sides of this war. But to

be killed by friendly fire again...we have lost more soldiers, American and

British in friendly fire than in enemy fire.

I wonder what this could mean? Trickster at it? our shadow side showing in

the blazing sun?

" What is hidden in the dark must be spoken in the light "

Toni

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Toni, all:

This brings up the notion of hubris. Let¹s look at what Jung has to say

about hubris now that mistakes like the deaths from friendly fire escalate,

gaining momentum, every day in this war. Maybe Dan could throw some of his

positivism at the notion of ³revolutionary hubris², you know the way Russia

was revolutionized by the communists who held that the general population

would eventually realize it was for their own good. I must look up my

ex-husband¹s book that looks at Marxism as a religion. Toni, you should

have a vast storehouse of knowledge about hubris from your Catholic

background (grin).

In the dance,

Frances

> Dan. you are impossible! What wou;ld Jung do?you answered and I am answering

> you,

>

> No he wouldn't! He would feel the way some of us here feel...sick.

> We killed 54 people, military by friendly fire today. Go about our

> business.????..only if we are in the praying, suffering business. Jung was

> after all a spiritual person. he would suffer just as he did in World War l

> WW ll.

> I know you have a real heart someplace, but sometimes you keep it well

> hidden.

>

> WE have a lot of women, mothers to weep for on all sides of this war. But to

> be killed by friendly fire again...we have lost more soldiers, American and

> British in friendly fire than in enemy fire.

> I wonder what this could mean? Trickster at it? our shadow side showing in

> the blazing sun?

>

> " What is hidden in the dark must be spoken in the light "

>

> Toni

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Dear Toni,

I didn't say he wouldn't suffer (although I'm not sure that he would make a big

show of bleeding his heart all over the place for others to see and

admire, as some in the media and elsewhere seem tempted to do) but I think that

he would nonetheless go about his business - as, indeed, he did in

WWII (a war worthy of the appellation).

Friendly fire casualties are part of the tragedy of war, esp. modern war. If you

want to pray, pray that it will be over soon - as, in fact, I believe

that it will be.

As for my own heart, well - I am put off by patent nonsense, grown men and women

on T.V. and in the papers talking about worlds without war and other

such stuff. Reality is tough enough to deal with without loading ourselves up

with a bunch of vain and futile hopes and childish wishes.

Hope your husband is feeling better.

Regards,

Dan

Vienna wrote:

> Dan. you are impossible! What wou;ld Jung do?you answered and I am answering

> you,

>

> No he wouldn't! He would feel the way some of us here feel...sick.

> We killed 54 people, military by friendly fire today. Go about our

> business.????..only if we are in the praying, suffering business. Jung was

> after all a spiritual person. he would suffer just as he did in World War l

> WW ll.

> I know you have a real heart someplace, but sometimes you keep it well

> hidden.

>

> WE have a lot of women, mothers to weep for on all sides of this war. But to

> be killed by friendly fire again...we have lost more soldiers, American and

> British in friendly fire than in enemy fire.

> I wonder what this could mean? Trickster at it? our shadow side showing in

> the blazing sun?

>

> " What is hidden in the dark must be spoken in the light "

>

> Toni

>

>

> " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings may

be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering. "

>

> H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama

>

>

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Dear Frances,

I don't know what you mean by my " positivism " (certainly I am anything but a

logical positivist). However that may be, that Marxism (like all

teachings that hold out hope for the final perfecting of mankind) was and is

nonsense should have been apparent enough to those, like Jung, who took

seriously the ancient Western literary tradition as something other than a

collection of quaint antiquities. One might also learn, in those selfsame

books, something of the (severe) limitations of democracy, as did Jung also (or

maybe he just observed them himself - they are obvious enough.)

I saw reported in an article posted on commondreams.org the results of a poll

stating that 38% of American respondents agreed with a statement to the

effect that the U.S. should annex Canada. I didn't verify these results myself,

but they sound about right. Ah, the wisdom of the people! There is

your democracy for you.

Regards,

Dan Watkins

" She was the dancing queen,

Young and sweet, only seventeen. "

Abba

Frances wrote:

> Toni, all:

>

> This brings up the notion of hubris. Let¹s look at what Jung has to say

> about hubris now that mistakes like the deaths from friendly fire escalate,

> gaining momentum, every day in this war. Maybe Dan could throw some of his

> positivism at the notion of ³revolutionary hubris², you know the way Russia

> was revolutionized by the communists who held that the general population

> would eventually realize it was for their own good. I must look up my

> ex-husband¹s book that looks at Marxism as a religion. Toni, you should

> have a vast storehouse of knowledge about hubris from your Catholic

> background (grin).

>

> In the dance,

>

> Frances

>

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Dear Frances,

How right you are. But my experience comes mostly from myself.It is a daily,

hourly battle.It will always be a battle again the mana personality I once

displayed.

Yes, hubris is the cause of the dreadful errors we commit. We trust our

superior technology too much and think we are invincible. It is all too

obvious where that has brought us. We should all be wearing sackcloth and

ashes for this overweaning human pride in our ability to " think " create and

rationalize this use of our abilities.

As for the Holy Roman Catholic Church...it depends on what level of the

hierarchy one looks at. The farther down under the older priests, the more

hubris. " The Church said it, I say it, that settles it "

Than we have the revamped Holy Office, named changed but Rahner still around

to silence any mere priest and some bishops for daring to say what the whole

world already knows...about outdated doctrine carved in stone.

Some of the best intellectuals within have been silenced...although I

suggest, the people responsible for the silencing haven't a clue about what

the meaning behind these so called forbidden ideas are.

Then there are the Cardinal Laws of the world who still do not " get it' what

is " it " ...the idea that the Church sacrifice others to maintain its

organization put in place (they did change history a little) by Christ.-

The Vatican uses " Opus Dei " to silence renewal or rebellion by being the

Churches hidden gestapo.Like the Republican guards they are fiercly loyal to

the the porganization and its leaders whom they favor.

Even the Pope himself silenced a great Nicarogian a wonderful poet-priest

who accepted a government post i his country to try to clean up corruption.

A shameful act by the Supreme Pontiff earlier in his reign.

Then there is the story of corruption sanctioned by the Church instigated by

Vatican Bank a few years ago.

Not to speak of the Vatican's holdings of stock in weapons companies and the

makers of contraceptives.

All this is public knowledge and most people just shrug their shoulders.All

is forgiven as long as the Church survives.

The college of cardinals is a council of old men too many holding on to

power for their own sakes who should have been forced to retire years ago

because they are out of step with their flock.

Now in spite of all this there are dedicated, holy men who are trying to

serve the 'people of G-d " . As the repository of the Christian tradition the

Church has done a good job for the first 1500 years or so. They, it, can

just not cope with intelligent , aware and educated people in the pews.

I paint with a broad brush because it is a real sin, in my opinion, to

sacrifice human beings for the health of the organization.An oath or vow to

the hierarchy of the organization is not a vow to its announced Lord.

Yes, I know from experience to think one has all the necessary answers,

because after all the Church is headed by Jesus Christ.The horrors committed

in His name are terrible, but many actually were carried out by sincere men

educated in a rigid system.On top of that many human beings are not ready

for more conscious observances and find comfort within its rigid structure.

That is no small thing.

All of us have hubris, all of us suffer from believing we are in the right,

and all of us want to perpetuate whatever situation has given us power.

Unfortunately the young priest in training is subjected to an education

while forced to wear blinders, so the future seems dim. And the biggest sign

of hubris is that no pope will ever rescind any edict from a former pope

however wrong because that would admit the Church's humanity, and cast doubt

on whether the institution is after all infallible.

I could go on and on about its treatment through the ages of women. I won't

because it is well known. it will not change anytime soon because the basic

mindset has not changed.

But then, Frances, are not all human institutions out first to protect the

institution under which many have gained power? We are , all of us, prone to

overzealous use of whatever power and authority we can grab.

Personally within the institution I found what I had originally wanted, the

security, the boundaries and the sacraments. To many ordinary people that is

all they want and need. It was my introduction to the power of the spirit

outside the boundaries of doctrine and dogma, unblessed and fiercely

resisted by the Church that I found the freedom which the Episcopal Church

asserts in its collect : Whose service is perfect freedom " . It is always a

risk, both for the structure of the organization and the individual, when

one has direst access to the Spirit unmediated by Church, law, and judge.(

that was the work of the Charismatic renewal for those who wanted " more "

than the organization was able to give.

Toni

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Dear Dan,

Well a bleeding heart is a pretty good thing.It is called compassion.

We'll I can certainly agree with the bulk of what you say about " futile

hopes and childish wishes. "

The problem is the real suffering endured by those who only obey the call to

duty. Of course my prayer about this war is really my own inner decision,

but everyone with any sense or love would want it over soonest.

I know all about friendly fire. I married a military man who has personally

seen it, and I have been exposed to Marine Corps indoctrination. neither

really help to make it less awful. Perhaps if we had less pride as Frances

said, we would put less faith in our abilities to conduct a painless

war....or maybe any war.

We will always have wars because unconscious people will always want

violence to solve frustration and anger.I do not think however sticking

one's head in the proverbial sand accomplishes anything but sand in one;s

eyes.

Yes, reality is tough enough to endure...but human beings have always had

the ability to not see whatever reality is painful...and that is , in my

opinion, is denial of the suffering we all share as part of the All.

How can you judge the sincerity of those " whose bleeding hearts " ? We all

express grief ion our own way. let others express theirs without judging its

worth.

Thanks for your good wishes for the love of my life. The " home' nurse is

with him at the moment so I have a few moments to write. he is getting

better.

Toni

Re: Finding WMD in Iraq - does it matter?

> Dear Toni,

>

> I didn't say he wouldn't suffer (although I'm not sure that he would make

a big show of bleeding his heart all over the place for others to see and

> admire, as some in the media and elsewhere seem tempted to do) but I think

that he would nonetheless go about his business - as, indeed, he did in

> WWII (a war worthy of the appellation).

>

> Friendly fire casualties are part of the tragedy of war, esp. modern war.

If you want to pray, pray that it will be over soon - as, in fact, I believe

> that it will be.

>

> As for my own heart, well - I am put off by patent nonsense, grown men and

women on T.V. and in the papers talking about worlds without war and other

> such stuff. Reality is tough enough to deal with without loading ourselves

up with a bunch of vain and futile hopes and childish wishes.

>

> Hope your husband is feeling better.

>

> Regards,

>

> Dan

>

>

>

> Vienna wrote:

>

> > Dan. you are impossible! What wou;ld Jung do?you answered and I am

answering

> > you,

> >

> > No he wouldn't! He would feel the way some of us here feel...sick.

> > We killed 54 people, military by friendly fire today. Go about our

> > business.????..only if we are in the praying, suffering business. Jung

was

> > after all a spiritual person. he would suffer just as he did in World

War l

> > WW ll.

> > I know you have a real heart someplace, but sometimes you keep it well

> > hidden.

> >

> > WE have a lot of women, mothers to weep for on all sides of this war.

But to

> > be killed by friendly fire again...we have lost more soldiers, American

and

> > British in friendly fire than in enemy fire.

> > I wonder what this could mean? Trickster at it? our shadow side showing

in

> > the blazing sun?

> >

> > " What is hidden in the dark must be spoken in the light "

> >

> > Toni

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Dear Toni,

Vienna wrote:

> Dear Dan,

> Well a bleeding heart is a pretty good thing.It is called compassion.

>

> We'll I can certainly agree with the bulk of what you say about " futile

> hopes and childish wishes. "

> The problem is the real suffering endured by those who only obey the call to

> duty. Of course my prayer about this war is really my own inner decision,

> but everyone with any sense or love would want it over soonest.

> I know all about friendly fire. I married a military man who has personally

> seen it, and I have been exposed to Marine Corps indoctrination. neither

> really help to make it less awful. Perhaps if we had less pride as Frances

> said, we would put less faith in our abilities to conduct a painless

> war....or maybe any war.

And perhaps we would be asses for our (inevitable) conquerors to ride. Weakness

invites tyranny - that's a natural law.

>

>

> We will always have wars because unconscious people will always want

> violence to solve frustration and anger.I do not think however sticking

> one's head in the proverbial sand accomplishes anything but sand in one;s

> eyes.

> Yes, reality is tough enough to endure...but human beings have always had

> the ability to not see whatever reality is painful...and that is , in my

> opinion, is denial of the suffering we all share as part of the All.

>

> How can you judge the sincerity of those " whose bleeding hearts " ?

I didn't. Who cares about sincerity? What has sincerity got to do with anything?

(I have no doubt - none - that Hitler was sincere.)

> We all

> express grief ion our own way. let others express theirs without judging its

> worth.

>

> Thanks for your good wishes for the love of my life. The " home' nurse is

> with him at the moment so I have a few moments to write. he is getting

> better.

You're welcome. Glad to hear it.

Regards,

Dan

>

> Toni

>

> Re: Finding WMD in Iraq - does it matter?

>

> > Dear Toni,

> >

> > I didn't say he wouldn't suffer (although I'm not sure that he would make

> a big show of bleeding his heart all over the place for others to see and

> > admire, as some in the media and elsewhere seem tempted to do) but I think

> that he would nonetheless go about his business - as, indeed, he did in

> > WWII (a war worthy of the appellation).

> >

> > Friendly fire casualties are part of the tragedy of war, esp. modern war.

> If you want to pray, pray that it will be over soon - as, in fact, I believe

> > that it will be.

> >

> > As for my own heart, well - I am put off by patent nonsense, grown men and

> women on T.V. and in the papers talking about worlds without war and other

> > such stuff. Reality is tough enough to deal with without loading ourselves

> up with a bunch of vain and futile hopes and childish wishes.

> >

> > Hope your husband is feeling better.

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Dan

> >

> >

> >

> > Vienna wrote:

> >

> > > Dan. you are impossible! What wou;ld Jung do?you answered and I am

> answering

> > > you,

> > >

> > > No he wouldn't! He would feel the way some of us here feel...sick.

> > > We killed 54 people, military by friendly fire today. Go about our

> > > business.????..only if we are in the praying, suffering business. Jung

> was

> > > after all a spiritual person. he would suffer just as he did in World

> War l

> > > WW ll.

> > > I know you have a real heart someplace, but sometimes you keep it well

> > > hidden.

> > >

> > > WE have a lot of women, mothers to weep for on all sides of this war.

> But to

> > > be killed by friendly fire again...we have lost more soldiers, American

> and

> > > British in friendly fire than in enemy fire.

> > > I wonder what this could mean? Trickster at it? our shadow side showing

> in

> > > the blazing sun?

> > >

> > > " What is hidden in the dark must be spoken in the light "

> > >

> > > Toni

>

>

> " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings may

be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering. "

>

> H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama

>

>

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Dear Toni, , Suzanne, all

Suppose we focus our psychological resources on the future without the

hubris of revolutionary politics?

hubris, from Greek compound hubris, violence, outrage, insolence (bri-,

perhaps ³heavy,² ³violent²)

NOUN: Overbearing pride or presumption; arrogance

ETYMOLOGY: Greek, excessive pride, wanton violence.

³an excessive pride or arrogant overconfidence that often ends in

retribution.²   

Toni I hear ya. Protecting our own institutions is a human trait. Doing it

with technology in this war makes technology our burden, an exacting duty

whether we like it or not. It is the destiny of the West and possibly of the

world as a whole.

The true hubris seems to consist precisely in trying to interpret technology

in personalistic moralistic terms, i.e., by conceiving it as human

accomplishment. This war brings home how easy it is to leave behind the

human perspective as we witness this astonishing, monstrous, incredible

phenomenon whilst becoming increasingly uneasy and helpless as it develops

in its purity. The icon of the occupation of Baghdad is the tank on the

streets. Technology uber alles. We are still not seeing blood on our

sanitized newscasts. Is happiness a warm gun?

I found a good quote that transcends political doctrines on what's at stake

in this war of superior technology. " As both capitalist and communist

states‹ not to mention the technological world‹have evolved under the

illusion that men purposefully built them, ideological optimism seeps into

every niche of our lives. It is made worse by mass culture which feeds our

most destructive illusions, fostering the belief that if we¹re only

justified (and who isn¹t?) if we only calculate things correctly, if we only

do the right thing (and who doesn¹t?) then the future must yield the desired

results. There must always be a way. And so hubris turns to false

certainties, everyone expects to be a winner, and each morning is a

mind-blowing surprise. " Vizinczey (b. 1933), Hungarian novelist,

critic. repr. In Truth and Lies in Literature (1986).

The biblical image of hubris is the Tower and the Tower of Babel is a symbol

of the highest value, psychologically which provides the foundation for

individualism, interiority, etc. As others have said around our fire - the

hubris of consciousness. The tower is basically Œsymbolic of ascent,¹ or

spiritual pride, arrogance, hubris. Perhaps the shattering events of

September 11th were due to " our lack of proportion, our inflation and our

disharmony were parts of the setting and helped prepare the ground², says

Robin on in his book Meeting Your Secret Self and Becoming Whole.

Jung also called it " monotheism of consciousness " . " This psychological

monism, or rather monotheism, has the advantage of simplicity but the defect

of one-sidedness. " According to Jung, it entails " exclusion of the diversity

and rich reality of life " (CW 7page 288, paragraph 482). but the ego killing

the meaning of what is there with hubris. Jung calls this " inflation of the

ego by the archetype. "

The Greeks made sacrifices in part to distinguish their gods from

themselves. This helped them to avoid hubris. Hubris meant taking upon

themselves god-like powers, like flying too close to the sun, which would

swamp their personal identity.

In order to avoid this inflation, or hubris, I must distinguish between my

own personal qualities and those of the archetype.

<<The future has not yet been created. We are creating

it in each moment. But in the history that was

yesterday, we can find the wisdom to make it a future

WORTH living, if only we wake up.>> Greg

At least the appearance of the shadow tends to cure us of hubris, and forces

us to engage more consciously with the process of our own development. This

is a period when one just has to put one foot in front of the other and keep

moving, with no idea where the path might lead.

<<That will take some doing, some love, some effort, and much

encouragement, it seems to me>> Greg

In the dance,

Frances

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Frances, all,

This resonates with me.

<And so hubris turns to false certainties, everyone expects to be a

winner, and each morning is a mind-blowing surprise. "

Vizinczey

Jung also called it " monotheism of consciousness " . " This

psychological monism, or rather monotheism, has the advantage of

simplicity but the defect of one-sidedness. "

In order to avoid this inflation, or hubris, I must distinguish

between my own personal qualities and those of the archetype.>

The hypostatic conceit ensnares; wisdom is: not do this. That's the

problem with the identification, for example, with a provident God,

and, an inner life that projects the Self outward or inward. The Self

does, (and this doesn't get stated often enough,) constellate itself

in the complex, and you could then speak of the Self Complex.

Von Franz: " evil often hides between idealism " . (From a timely and

important chapter, The Evil Demons, in Projection and Re-Collection

in Jungian Psychology; also this subject is taken up by Edinger and

Harding, among others.)

From a philosophical perspective the problem is brutally simple. As

far as human values go, there is no way to objectively derive

objective values from objective laws because we don't have any way to

clarify utterly those objective laws in the first place. It's a

circular regress swung between one-sided 'certainties'.

Jung offered antimony as a way of putting one-sidedness in a

relation. Might makes right is okay, but, after the enantiodrioma

plays out, wags will borrow from Alice in pointing out, " maybe you

should've considered the obvious? "

***

To what side of the equation is hope found? Soul work, eros, refined

discrimination of the verbs of wholeness. ...a different kind of

mind-blowing surprise.

regards,

--

An ancient adept has said: " If the wrong man uses the right means,

the right means work in the wrong way. " this Chinese saying,

unfortunately only too true, stands in sharp contrast to our belief

in the " right " method irrespective of the man who applies it. In

reality, everything depends on the man and little or nothing on the

method. --Jung, The Secret of the Golden Flower

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Dear Dan

You see weakness which I discern as strength. I don't really want to live in

your reality. Fear is mostly what you see, hear and feel. NO thank you. And

natural law (does it exist or is it a figment of catholic Christianity's

conception of reality?)

By the way, real men have learned that showing emotion is really OK. in fact

it makes them almost human.And 'asses for our conquerors? Well, one ass,

Balaam's showed more sense and divine intuition than his human master who

refused to

Toni

Re: Finding WMD in Iraq - does it matter?

> >

> > > Dear Toni,

> > >

> > > I didn't say he wouldn't suffer (although I'm not sure that he would

make

> > a big show of bleeding his heart all over the place for others to see

and

> > > admire, as some in the media and elsewhere seem tempted to do) but I

think

> > that he would nonetheless go about his business - as, indeed, he did in

> > > WWII (a war worthy of the appellation).

> > >

> > > Friendly fire casualties are part of the tragedy of war, esp. modern

war.

> > If you want to pray, pray that it will be over soon - as, in fact, I

believe

> > > that it will be.

> > >

> > > As for my own heart, well - I am put off by patent nonsense, grown men

and

> > women on T.V. and in the papers talking about worlds without war and

other

> > > such stuff. Reality is tough enough to deal with without loading

ourselves

> > up with a bunch of vain and futile hopes and childish wishes.

> > >

> > > Hope your husband is feeling better.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > >

> > > Dan

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Vienna wrote:

> > >

> > > > Dan. you are impossible! What wou;ld Jung do?you answered and I am

> > answering

> > > > you,

> > > >

> > > > No he wouldn't! He would feel the way some of us here feel...sick.

> > > > We killed 54 people, military by friendly fire today. Go about our

> > > > business.????..only if we are in the praying, suffering business.

Jung

> > was

> > > > after all a spiritual person. he would suffer just as he did in

World

> > War l

> > > > WW ll.

> > > > I know you have a real heart someplace, but sometimes you keep it

well

> > > > hidden.

> > > >

> > > > WE have a lot of women, mothers to weep for on all sides of this

war.

> > But to

> > > > be killed by friendly fire again...we have lost more soldiers,

American

> > and

> > > > British in friendly fire than in enemy fire.

> > > > I wonder what this could mean? Trickster at it? our shadow side

showing

> > in

> > > > the blazing sun?

> > > >

> > > > " What is hidden in the dark must be spoken in the light "

> > > >

> > > > Toni

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Dear Greg,

You wrote:

>

>

> One can also assert that " unbridled hubris is the very

> breath and perpetuation of tyranny " , (whether in Iraq

> or the good ol' USA). But what would such a " natural

> law " demonstrate other than Man's deplorably slow pace

> of conscious development?

What? Are we supposed to be heading somewhere? (The end of history, perhaps?)

Regards,

Dan

>

>

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Dan wrote: > And perhaps we would be asses for our (inevitable)

conquerors to ride. Weakness invites tyranny - that's a natural law.

Recently I saw a wildlife documentary about a tribe of temple monkeys

living in Sri Lanka. The monkeys have a social hierarchy and are

ruled by an alpha male, usually for about 3 years or until challenged

and beaten by another male who then assumes that role. The alpha

male in the temple tribe had been in place for five years, an

unusually long time, and it was noted by the wildlife observers, he

seemed to have many " friends " (other males who would groom him &

share food). It was also observed that he treated the females and

offspring with gentleness. A young male in the tribe had been making

aggressive gestures for some time until at last he attacked and

challenged the dominant male. One of the alpha's (male) friends

jumped in to protect him but eventually gave way as the fight began.

In the aftermath the alpha male was severely wounded. He was

immediately surrounded by the other males who licked his wounds

gently, staying with him as he lay dying, and then even grooming his

dead body for some time.

The younger challenger took up his -- I guess you'd call it

*natural* -- role as the new alpha male. He used intimidation and

ferocity with the other males, and he treated the females and babies

roughly. One day, after about 3 months of this, the females of the

group turned on him, attacked and drove him away. The tribe adopted a

new alpha male, and to the great surprise of the documentary crew, he

turned out to be the kinder & gentler male " friend " who had jumped in

to support the original alpha. These events were captured on film for

all to see...

If a tribe of monkeys understand the value of a leader with the

quality of compassion, why haven't we humans learned this by now?

" ...be helpless like children because weakness is a great thing and

strength is nothing. When man is just born he is weak and flexible,

when he dies, he is hard and insensitive. When a tree is growing,

it's tender and pliant but when it's dry and hard, it dies. Hardness

and strength are death's companions. Pliancy and weakness are

expressions of the freshness of being because what has hardened will

never win. " From Andrei Tarkovsky's " Stalker "

> > >

> > > > Dan. you are impossible! What wou;ld Jung do?you answered and

I am

> > answering

> > > > you,

> > > >

> > > > No he wouldn't! He would feel the way some of us here

feel...sick.

> > > > We killed 54 people, military by friendly fire today. Go

about our

> > > > business.????..only if we are in the praying, suffering

business. Jung

> > was

> > > > after all a spiritual person. he would suffer just as he did

in World

> > War l

> > > > WW ll.

> > > > I know you have a real heart someplace, but sometimes you

keep it well

> > > > hidden.

> > > >

> > > > WE have a lot of women, mothers to weep for on all sides of

this war.

> > But to

> > > > be killed by friendly fire again...we have lost more

soldiers, American

> > and

> > > > British in friendly fire than in enemy fire.

> > > > I wonder what this could mean? Trickster at it? our shadow

side showing

> > in

> > > > the blazing sun?

> > > >

> > > > " What is hidden in the dark must be spoken in the light "

> > > >

> > > > Toni

> >

> >

> > " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means

whereby beings may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory

experience and suffering. "

> >

> > H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama

> >

> >

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