Guest guest Posted April 5, 2003 Report Share Posted April 5, 2003 Toni, Alice, all, Thank you Alice for distinguishing the mysterious, (and of course the mystery remains so,) processes. <Judaism, Christianity n some other religs focus on the light shing thru the prism into colors; Buddhism is concerned w/colors going back to light.> It's even more paradoxical (in my experience,) yet, what you write here is true enough, Alice. In the infinitude of perfect paths home, the prism analogy allows us to see how all such paths are one or the other, or a weaving of both, in the latter case each having its import vis a vis whatever the seeker needs. My path is about the one certain purpose. The paradox is: this one certainty is about giving up to God the discernment of God's reality, so, it describes a process of separating out his divine attributes and epiphanizing them - giving them up, giving them back. The feeling tone of this is *longing*. Its paradox is the separation that implements this longing: separation from the true self, separation from the divine, separation from certainty... Yet, at the same time, as is the case with the second 'Way', the practice is one of absorption in both singular devotion *and* in discernment. (Sometimes, I feel, meditation is misunderstood when it is reduced to a single purpose. It has a dual purpose: to witness the bubbling. and, to witness the source.) One has to witness a lot of bubbling on this side of the veil before one, may God Will it so, witness God's bubbling on the other side of the veil. Yet, the Lover gambles all of it away before the source may be tasted. Certainty is only of God. All His Names express this. Al-Khabir: total understanding, is one of His Names. This is also why I'm (unnecessarily!) touchy about other person's certainties and not touchy enough about my own single purpose, the purpose He Knows best, better than I can know. *** Paradox: absorption+uniqueness (or individuation,) renunciation+affirmative submission; light *upon* light...these are the antimonies of the Secret...the path of the separated lover; the reed pulled from the reed bed. And, it is wonderfully so: God's infinitude is *confusing*. So, the teaching for me has been mostly one concerned with commonsense simplicity: not conceptualization, but, rather, practice. What is known is given up; another paradox... God is the Light of the heavens and the earth; the likeness of His Light is as a niche wherein is a lamp (the lamp in a glass, the glass as it were a glittering star) kindled from a Blessed Tree an olive that is neither of the East nor of the West whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it; Light upon Light; God guides to His Light whom He will. And Allah speaketh to mankind in symbols for Allah is knower of all things. Quran, XXIV 35 *** Over the last few days I've had the enlightening fact come back to its center. (Toni, thanks, again.) I am aware of your vulnerability. Thank God you are vulnerable! It's a razor's edge for me also. You wrote, " tears are never very far away these days " . For me: may tears always be close. You did nothing but be yourself, Toni, and this served a profound purpose. It can hardly be a mistake. About this purpose, what can I say? What may I say? This, Toni - Keep boiling me. regards, much love, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2003 Report Share Posted April 7, 2003 In a message dated 4/7/2003 1:29:43 PM Central Daylight Time, hoon@... writes: > I'm confused and prefer it this way. Confusion is a good thing. When you're confused at least you are open to learning more; when one is certain, learning more is very much more difficult if not impossible. Namasté Sam in Texas §(ô¿ô)§ " Life makes you walk that delicate balance between Making It Happen and Letting It Happen. " -- Rick Beneteau Minds are like parachutes; they only function when open. - Sir Dewar A closed mind is a good thing to lose. " Minds are like parachutes; most people use them only as a last resort. " ~Ben Ostrowsky Some minds are like concrete, thoroughly mixed up and permanently set. ~mrantho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2003 Report Share Posted April 7, 2003 Dear . We set out on our paths with the feelings, personalities, strength and weaknesses we possess. Even our habitual language comes from the community of believers whoever they are wherever they are.We are taught how to proceed by the teachers we chose. You say you have no certainty, as I have because I have experienced it. But for the 40 some odd years before I knew for certain, that tiny piece of the All that touched me was my actual experience,., in the Mass and other services I felt( purely from how G-d had dealt with me,) some inkling of how it could be. G-d, the All, the One treats us in accordance with our expectations of him/her/it.The greater one's expectations the greater the fulfillment, of course it is only my opinion of how I know I have been treated., and taught. You have accepted a different approach, and I am certain there is room for many others. All of us have pride and think ours it The way. or the most perfect way, or, unfortunately the only way. There were so many accounts in my tradition of how G-d was known in an inner experience by people ,that I knew it was possible. Maybe there were some neurotics, some dissemblers,some delusional among all the witnesses to G-d actions, but there are too many for me to doubt To live in doubt may be the way for you. At the moment it obviously is, which I am sure caused you to accept that path that was congenial to you. You said: My path is about the one certain purpose. The paradox is: this one > certainty is about giving up to God the discernment of God's reality, > so, it describes a process of separating out his divine attributes > and empathize them - giving them up, giving them back. My comment is ...go with it wherever it takes you. It is hard for me to understand since I believe revelation is G-d given and I cannot personally see " giving it back. but this is your way, so go with it. We both agree that The G--dhead is unknowable anyway. I have at least an image of the Imago Dei which you say your tradition does not have.I never could claim as long as i am sane that I know the G-dhead. What I know is that something has touched me in a blessed way. I too can go no further, But as I communicate what and who I am to the Self, I can also " know " that the love I feel comes from the Self in return..or better, I feel the love and then I try to return to the Self. your comment: The feeling tone of this is *longing*. Its paradox is the separation > that implements this longing: separation from the true self, > separation from the divine, separation from certainty... Is this known to you how? Did you setup the parameters or were those given...by someone else or Something Else? St Augustine agreed about the longing. " Our heart are loney until they find their rest in Thee " that was his experience.I think this longing is within anyone who finds the inner Self can not be completely known in the present state. It is caution for all true seekers , in my opinion ,to be open to anything and not to set limits to how, when or where. This long separation? why is it? is it your determination or Another's'. Is it fixed, or are you fluid? To me, on my path, I always hesitate to set up the way I think things should go. For me, my inflation would be to tell the Eternal how he should want me to acknowledge Him.. It is my danger, perhaps not yours. But openness is the key, I believe to all blessings, all experience and all necessary submission at some point. you say: Certainty is only of God. All His Names express this. Al-Khabir: > total understanding, is one of His Names. Where did you think it came from.? if I am certain that he has touched me, where did that experience come from? my imagination, my deluded mind, my nerosis or perhaps that numinous experience was an actual, honest to G-d truth?? The Self is not so hard to discover if we give it a chance, are open to its promptings..But the discovery will not depend on the ego, for certain. It will come when it will come. Maybe soon, maybe never. Who knows how the spirit blows? I believe our openess and our faith in the ability to know is all we need. I think limiting our expectations is self defeating. From my tradition it is. From yours, I don't know because I do not have enough knowledge about it.Is it possible that the' Impossible to Comprehend 'is just waiting for an invitation? It is there within us, is it not? Only you know that, only you know yourself well enough to interprete your path for yourself. We all do what we are led to do by listening to the best of our our ability and desire.( got to admit,to me , common sense has little to do with the uncommon love given us) Please don't count out any possibilities.Imagine all things are possible. And do not, I know you do not, by the way, judge the experiences of others within your tradition and without. certainty is a sometimes thing and it too is mysterious because we can not cause it, or not cause it. maybe you too need Alice's advice to relax. Perhaps not press your expectations that things must be as you think or were taught they are. You quote: What is known is given up; another paradox... > Certainly if it is a matter of mind. Certainly if we insist on our created thoughts.But, there is another " know' which comes from a source not wrapped around our ego. That we cannot give up, because we did not create it.The Self knows and may share??? There comes a time, I believe when we stop thinking things through, using our inquisitive mind, I don't understand how we ever give up thinking in images until we give up thinking...and there we are at the point again where we differ, so let's back away . I will close by giving you an insight I had. years ago. Or was it a teaching? anyway, the suffering we endure must not be the suffering we choose, but that which we did not choose and is given. Perhaps that includes " certainty " as a choice??? Blessings and love, . Toni. .. unity through separation > Toni, Alice, all, > > Thank you Alice for distinguishing the mysterious, (and of course the > mystery remains so,) processes. > > <Judaism, Christianity n some other religs focus on the light shing > thru the prism into colors; Buddhism is concerned w/colors going back > to light.> > > It's even more paradoxical (in my experience,) yet, what you write > here is true enough, Alice. In the infinitude of perfect paths home, > the prism analogy allows us to see how all such paths are one or the > other, or a weaving of both, in the latter case each having its > import vis a vis whatever the seeker needs. > > My path is about the one certain purpose. The paradox is: this one > certainty is about giving up to God the discernment of God's reality, > so, it describes a process of separating out his divine attributes > and epiphanizing them - giving them up, giving them back. > > The feeling tone of this is *longing*. Its paradox is the separation > that implements this longing: separation from the true self, > separation from the divine, separation from certainty... > > Yet, at the same time, as is the case with the second 'Way', the > practice is one of absorption in both singular devotion *and* in > discernment. > > (Sometimes, I feel, meditation is misunderstood when it is reduced to > a single purpose. It has a dual purpose: to witness the bubbling. > and, to witness the source.) One has to witness a lot of bubbling on > this side of the veil before one, may God Will it so, witness God's > bubbling on the other side of the veil. Yet, the Lover gambles all of > it away before the source may be tasted. > > Certainty is only of God. All His Names express this. Al-Khabir: > total understanding, is one of His Names. > > This is also why I'm (unnecessarily!) touchy about other person's > certainties and not touchy enough about my own single purpose, the > purpose He Knows best, better than I can know. > > *** > > Paradox: absorption+uniqueness (or individuation,) > > renunciation+affirmative submission; > > light *upon* light...these are the antimonies of the Secret...the > path of the separated lover; the reed pulled from the reed bed. And, > it is wonderfully so: God's infinitude is *confusing*. > > So, the teaching for me has been mostly one concerned with > commonsense simplicity: not conceptualization, but, rather, practice. > > What is known is given up; another paradox... > > God is the Light of the heavens and the earth; > the likeness of His Light is as a niche > wherein is a lamp > (the lamp in a glass, > the glass as it were a glittering star) > kindled from a Blessed Tree > an olive that is neither of the East nor of the West > whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it; > Light upon Light; > God guides to His Light whom He will. > And Allah speaketh to mankind in symbols > for Allah is knower of all things. > > Quran, XXIV 35 > > > *** > > Over the last few days I've had the enlightening fact come back to > its center. (Toni, thanks, again.) I am aware of your vulnerability. > Thank God you are vulnerable! It's a razor's edge for me also. > > You wrote, " tears are never very far away these days " . > > For me: may tears always be close. You did nothing but be yourself, > Toni, and this served a profound purpose. It can hardly be a mistake. > > About this purpose, what can I say? What may I say? > > This, Toni - > > Keep boiling me. > > regards, much love, > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2003 Report Share Posted April 7, 2003 Toni, all, Hi Toni. I'm basically a very easy-going person. " He didn't know whether they were laughing at him, or with him, but at least they were laughing. " I don't have a big time belief system. Nor do I spring from a tradition. I'm confused and prefer it this way. Mystery is very beautiful, the greatest symphony ever composed. For me the point is to pay attention and sustain a sense of humor, a game, a dance... *** My longing is just what it is, my experience. Spiritual matters are very private to me. I've talked about them here, but words are quite inadequate. If they give the impression that my ego is sorting and reasoning and figuring, that's a mistaken impression. I have a spectacular ego but it's met its match. But, to give back to God is easy; intention and thankful release. I'm not sure how any of this works, and I'm not even sure I'm so unsure. You and I will meet some day, God Willing, and -maybe- corner a table at Denny's and sit, and see. regards, -- ================================================================== " The point is to have a notion of a creative being, rather than an identified being. " _ Bohm ================================================================== http://squareone-learning.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2003 Report Share Posted April 7, 2003 dear , Count on it. And someday somewhere we will laugh at all our half-baked notions as we begin to grasp Truth. What do you think? I think mystery is beautiful, myself, I also enjoy being enveloped in it. No, I don't think it is similar to confusion. To me it only inspires awe. Yes, the sharing was good for us. We need to show an unbelieving world that there is more to live but what can be touched and/or bought.Being no dummies, maybe someone will take us seriously and begin his path again??? words are definitely inadequate which is why we so seldom share what cannot be explained or examined. love, Toni Re: unity through separation > Toni, all, > > Hi Toni. I'm basically a very easy-going person. " He didn't know > whether they were laughing at him, or with him, but at least they > were laughing. " > > I don't have a big time belief system. Nor do I spring from a > tradition. I'm confused and prefer it this way. Mystery is very > beautiful, the greatest symphony ever composed. For me the point is > to pay attention and sustain a sense of humor, a game, a dance... > > *** > > My longing is just what it is, my experience. Spiritual matters are > very private to me. I've talked about them here, but words are quite > inadequate. If they give the impression that my ego is sorting and > reasoning and figuring, that's a mistaken impression. I have a > spectacular ego but it's met its match. > > But, to give back to God is easy; intention and thankful release. > > I'm not sure how any of this works, and I'm not even sure I'm so unsure. > > You and I will meet some day, God Willing, and -maybe- corner a table > at Denny's and sit, and see. > > regards, > > > > -- > > ================================================================== > " The point is to have a notion of a creative being, rather than an > identified being. " _ Bohm > ================================================================== > > http://squareone-learning.com > > > " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering. " > > H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2003 Report Share Posted April 7, 2003 Unless the certainty teaches one what one needs to know...and isn't set in concrete, always ready for more revelation. As long as one is receptive, believe me, one will continue to learn. When I am confused, I learn nothing except that i haven't a clue. So we all will use different wordsfor that which calls us. There is, as agrees no better learning than experience, and that comes from openess to whatever may come. My certainty is about who it is I believe in, but life changes us and we grow or decrease in desire.Since we can never know more about the All than that everything we say its opposite can also be said, we are in no danger of concretizing or standing still. We learn what we already know and recognise it for the first time (with apologies to T. S. Eliot) Life is not not a puzzle to be solved but a mystery to be lived. To life! (None of the great warriors of our tradition were unsure od whom they had experienced and they all continued to be open to whatever comes.) I leave it to both of you to decide if " confusion " is the word you are searching for or is it something else? Confusion cannot be the meaning of life according to my understanding of " meaning " as Jung, for one, used it. In my humble opinion we cannot stand uncommitted...but then what do i know? Maybe you all have another meaning for the word " confusion " ?? I can only speak for the Judeo-Christian tradition in which confusion is what the enemy feels in the old Testament and new. I really think you all mean something different.I cannot imagine either of you confused and yet finding meaning in life? Toni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2003 Report Share Posted April 7, 2003 In a message dated 4/7/2003 3:05:05 PM Central Daylight Time, toni.toni2@... writes: > Maybe you all have another meaning for the word " confusion " ?? > For me, confusion is simply uncertainty, sometimes distressing, sometimes exciting, and, of course, with all sorts of varying degrees in between, but mostly just signifying a knowing that I don't know all I want to learn. Namasté Sam in Texas §(ô¿ô)§ " Life makes you walk that delicate balance between Making It Happen and Letting It Happen. " -- Rick Beneteau Minds are like parachutes; they only function when open. - Sir Dewar A closed mind is a good thing to lose. " Minds are like parachutes; most people use them only as a last resort. " ~Ben Ostrowsky Some minds are like concrete, thoroughly mixed up and permanently set. ~mrantho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2003 Report Share Posted April 8, 2003 In a message dated 4/7/2003 10:51:40 PM Central Daylight Time, toni.toni2@... writes: > mostly just signifying a knowing that I don't know all I want to learn. > > I have a different meaning, nothing like your last sentence. > I use it ,more as being disordered, the opposite of peaceful serene. " To > disturb in mind and body " , mixed up.,perplexed. > > Satan is often , or the trickster is often, the author of confusion. > Good morning, Toni, Yes, I agree that confusion can be the opposite of peaceful and serene but that doesn't make it a bad thing, IMO. We need peace and serenity in order to rest our minds and bodies but if we rest in that condition too long, we become stultified, we " die, " or at least we stop growing, which is simply a slower form of death. Confusion and chaos, marks of activity, seem to me to be hallmarks of growth even though at the time they often tend to be distressful for many people. As for Satan, the original meaning of the word is simply " the Opposer (or similar definitions), " whose purpose was to stand against us, to move us from our complacency, to more or less get us out of our rut, put us on a different path. For those who fear resistance or who feel that something that's blocking us from getting our way is evil, then Satan can be seen as evil personnified. It took God's greatest and brightest angel to accept the assignment to stand against His children when they want to go their way. >Confusion in the >spiritual life has a different connotation for me, than just lack of >knowledge, uncertainty. And for me, it's all spiritual. Physical, mental, spiritual, confusion has been my lot for some time and sometimes it frustrates me, sometimes I wish it would just leave me alone and sometimes, when I'm feeling particularly strong and hopeful, it's exciting. Tell me how confusion is different from uncertainty, in spiritual matters or in any other area. Can you have spiritual uncertainty and not be confused? Can you have confusion and still be certain about what you're confused about? I can't see the difference. >I would never have thought of 'exciting' as confusion. I don't all the time, of course. From a very mundane POV, it's like when I don't have the ingredients to make a meal that I'd planned so I " invent " a new recipe. I'm confused because nothing is certain but I have the familiar raw ingredients to combine in a way I haven't tried before and it's exciting because I'm being creative (and that's fun) and I'm eagerly anticipating the creation of a new (and wonderful!) dish. Sometimes it works and I'm pleased. Sometimes I'm disappointed, but in the process I did learn, " Don't mix this with that the next time. " Because, you see, there is a next time. But in the meantime, I don't berate myself and continue the sense of distress, I simply rest in " calm and serenity " until the next chance I get to invent something good because I screwed up again and forgot to buy something I needed and once again I have the confusion and excitement of creation. > " A closed mind is a good thing to lose. " > >I know that was just one of your quotes, but I think you believe someone who >insists about certainty about an issue because of an experience or ten which >happened to him ,is somehow a person with a closed mind. An aware person >would continue to question...even after his question has been answered and >the certainty resolved. Am I right??? Well, yeah. And no. If one continues to question, then one is not certain, it seems to me. I'm not advocating permanent and constant confusion and lack of knowledge. There has to be a point upon which one can rest in the knowledge that " This is true. " What I am suggesting is that this point of rest, a certainty, is valid but that it can be considered as valid for this time and at this point and when I move on, then that certainty is no longer valid for where I am now. Another analogy: think of a raft of logs floating on the river, the kind of raft lumberjacks make when they send their logs down to the sawmill. It's really just a bunch of logs floating in a bunch, not attached to each other. The lumberjacks can run along the tops of the logs as long as they don't try to rest too long on any one log, otherwise it will begin to turn and they'll end up losing their footing and falling between the logs and get drowned under the floating wood. Each log can represent a truth one has come to learn but one can't try to balance too long on it or it will no longer support one, one can't be certain of it. In order to stop and rest, there has to be an island of calm and serenity, either a place where the logs are attached to each other to create stability or the river bank. (And, of course, earthquakes can tell us a bit about the actual solidity of the earth!) Anyway, what I'm trying to suggest is that we have to have truths that we depend upon, upon which we can stop and rest when we need to, but that even those certain truths must give way to uncertainty if we want to move on. Confusion is just a greater degree of uncertainty and, IMO, tends to occur when we've resisted motion instead of gracefully moving with the flow. As one who needed a cosmic 2 x 4 between the eyes to get me moving, I can suggest with a fair degree of certainty *G* that resistance can lead to a great amount of pain and confusion that, IMO, could have been avoided if I'd been more willing to accept uncertainty and moved gracefully into the flow instead of having to be flung into the maelstrom. >As Jung was >often quoted as saying. " I do not have to believe in G-d because I know.' >(in close approximation )of what he said on TV to an interviewer. > >In other words, an experience is true for the experience-er. It becomes >convincing because it is personally experienced. Jung did not have a >'closed " mind, because he was certain he had had a numinous experience and >was no longer " uncertain. He did not say it was Truth, just that it was so >for the person having the experience. Yes, and I love this acknowledgement of his experience. And, as you say, he was no longer uncertain, *but* he did not say it was Truth. IOW, as I see it, he was certain of God's existence but he was not necessarily certain of what God is. Even in his certainty he allowed for uncertainty. Not necessarily confusion, but uncertainty. It occurs to me that perhaps these two words reflect more on the state of mind of the experiencer than they do on actual differences between the words. Uncertainty may be a state that one is willing to accept and work with while confusion can represent the exact same situation but is a state that one is resistant to and refusing to work with. I need to ponder that a bit more. >We do not influence the >unconscious...it influences the consciousness. We have actually no control >as something " pops " out of the unconscious. We may later deny, or accept >what has happened. I agree that we do not influence the unconscious or what arises from it. However, I do feel that whatever rises from the unconscious must be " tried " by the conscious. Just because something comes unbidden from the unconscious doesn't make it " right " and, by the same token, just because the conscious refuses to accept what arises doesn't make it " wrong. " The tensions between these two as we try to integrate them is what makes life exciting. And wearing! LOL >The question for all seekers is will they accept it...or keep looking for >the pearl of great price which they already had in their hand and then threw >away as imitation, because they had a preconception of what it should be, >feel like, look like???? Yes, this really is the dilemma, isn't it? One can be certain that one has the pearl and no longer seeks further and yet one can be certain and still be wrong. That's the conundrum. I'm not sure, though, that once one has found the true pearl that there's no going back to it. I'm reminded of the parable where the landowner gave so many talents to each of his subjects: one foolishly spent the treasure; one buried it and didn't do anything else with it; the third took risks and invested it and it grew. All, however, were doing the best they could with how they saw the world at the time. I think all of us have been one of these at various points in our lives. As Pogo said, " They is us. " As usual, Toni, I think we believe much more alike than we are often capable of stating with our words. I'm thinking I'd like to append a poem I wrote a long time ago when I first crashed and was thrown into the maelstrom. It's a bit rough in some spots because I've never gone back to polish it up but I think it addresses our discussion and I really do like some of the visuals in it! LOL It's pretty long; I hope nobody minds. I'm afraid it'll lose some of the formatting, too. Oh, well. Namasté Sam in Texas §(ô¿ô)§ " Life makes you walk that delicate balance between Making It Happen and Letting It Happen. " -- Rick Beneteau Minds are like parachutes; they only function when open. - Sir Dewar A closed mind is a good thing to lose. " Minds are like parachutes; most people use them only as a last resort. " ~Ben Ostrowsky Some minds are like concrete, thoroughly mixed up and permanently set. ~mrantho TRUTH by K. Heggen " Beware of Truth. If you find a Truth it can demand that you make some painful changes. " Herbert Where is Truth? What is Truth? Who is Truth? The truth is, there are many answers, many names, only one Answer, one Truth. Truth is delving deeper and deeper, to determine the smallest particle of the core of truth. Truth is realizing that we're searching in the wrong direction, so our search becomes one of expansion, to get the big picture, the panoramic view, the overarching cause. Our life is knitted of truths dropped like stitches, replaced with corrected ones until life becomes a patchwork of truths. Among them still we find no Truth. Truths that govern our life, fall by the wayside like the leaves of fall. Useful in their lifetime, still beautiful in death, but no longer able to provide sustenance. The more we learn, the more we question. Each knows what Truth is, but none can say with absolute certainty what is true. Why is Truth so important to us? Truth is Life. Truth calls us to be open to risk which may lead to joy or pain - or both. There are no guarantees, and we don't have a choice of which we'll get. Truth is a deep well from which we hope to draw the life-giving drink. If we find it dry, perhaps we didn't dare enough to untie the rope, to let the bucket down, to trust that salvation was there. Fearfully we refuse to untie the knot, believing that to hold on will save us from drowning, as we slowly die of thirst. Truth is as bright and open as the sun, yet we forego its warmth and light for the cold dimness of air-conditioned souls. We cling to our narrow range of stifling comfort rather than dare the uncomfortable chaos of Life. Truth is as simple as the wondrous face of a child returning the gaze of a sunflower. Truth is as complex as the labyrinth forever seducing the lost soul wandering its murderous maze. Truth is as hard to find as the honest man, but Truth is always where we are looking. Truth is as hard and eternal as a diamond, as soft as a baby's sleepy sigh. Truth waits to be accepted. Truth will not seduce you against your will. We search for Truth through our truths, though we will not find Truth through our efforts. But we must never cease to search. Truth can only come to us in the stillness of a quiet soul. Truth is ours for the asking but we can never own it. Truth is an unasked gift but one that we must be willing to accept. Truth promises joy but requires pain and sorrow. There are many truths, only one Truth. Our truth may not be others', but it is no more true than theirs, and no less. The name of truth is Ambiguity, but there is no doubt or falseness in Truth. The name of truth is Contradiction, but there is no contradiction in Truth. Truth is wholeness, completeness, absolute acceptance of all that is. Truth is light and dark, good and evil, self and other, you and me. Truth is everything. Truth is all. Truth is forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2003 Report Share Posted April 8, 2003 Dear Sam, you wrote: " I'm confused because nothing is certain " You are in for lifelong confusion then. Since we are not in charge of the universe, this state is permanent. That has nothing to do with confusion. it is a matter of fact. All we need to do is realize that. End of confusion. We are not in control.But we can allow ourselves to be led by the spirit. you state: " Confusion and chaos, marks of activity, seem to me to be hallmarks of growth even though at the time they often tend to be distressful for many people. Remember who undid the chaos and establisher order?. our myth does contain reality. Activity is not always a 'good' thing. It has its own set of opposites as the rest of life. being busy about many things is not in itself growth. it is activity, period.Confusion is not of the spirit. That activity can also be the end of growth. it is a matter of our decisions. Running around in circles leaves you only exhausted. not better or maybe not worse. Distress is another thing. Sorry ,this confusion you idealize is the inability to come up with a temporary workable solution. We must not make decisions cut in stone for all time, since we will surely have to revise them sooner or later,. but we do need to make choices. Once made ,the confusion is over until those choices no longer work for you. The goal, i judge will always be the same. the method may change. You have a misconception of " peace' and " serenity " . it is not the absence of consciousness, nor is it the end of experiencing, or knowing, or loving, or living. It is not inactivity. Why do we all think of it as a surrender of our daily lives, duties or responsibility?. it is rather, an inner state of not fighting oneself and the world....otherwise known as acceptance, not death or deathlike. but life giving. " Peace to men of good will " does not mean death, inactivity or a surreal state of inanimation. It is abundant life. It is not primarily because we need rest. it is because we already have our rest in something solid. Neither of these goods I describe are a temporary respite. The idea is to live that way. Take a vacation , or a nap when you need it for the kind of interlude you refer to.. Peace and serenity are too hard won to be a pill for discomfort or tiredness. I am afraid you have it backwards . you say: " We need peace and serenity in order to rest our minds and bodies but if we rest in that condition too long, we become stultified, we " die, " or at least we stop growing, which is simply a slower form of death. 'My peace I give you, is a permanent state of being. It is so very active and life-giving to all around. it is love and life as it 'should' be.( the idea of constant motion =progress is a modern one and found by most philosophers not to so in reality. Peace is the only way we 'grow'. we have time to think and look inside. Peace comes to me while studying, painting, writing, walking the dog, or changing diapers and taking out the garbage. Why would peace be universally so revered if it was as " deathlike " as you say? " The peace that passes all understanding be in your hearts and minds now and forever " That is a blessing we give each other. We hardly say " Confusion be your lot so you run around in circles fruitlessly and so be active " You also, it seems to me under rate the power of evil. I know the myth of Satan, Lucifer the light bearer too. you said: " As for Satan, the original meaning of the word is simply " the Opposer (or similar definitions), " whose purpose was to stand against us, to move us from our complacency, to more or less get us out of our rut, put us on a different path. " No no no, at least not in Christianity or Judaism, not in Scripture or in Myth. Evil is real .Not to move us out of complacency. That can't be done if we are not conscious. If the prince of darkness was posited to get us out of a rut, we would have to rewrite the Myth and reorder the universe. Satan, the Devil were meant as a metaphore for evil in a dualistic world. We knew earlier under Judaism it was the other side of G-d and will be so until opposites are united within " I am the G-d of weal and woe " .. If you have ever faced evil, you would never distain it. I implore you to take evil seriously. ..Don't underestimate or try to domesticate evil, please, for your own soul's sake. Do not accept evil as " It took God's greatest and brightest angel to accept the assignment to stand against His children when they want to go their way. " That is simply underating one of the greatest forces in the world. To quote Jung and Edinger: " Over and above the personal shadow there is also the archetype of the shadow. In Judeo-Christian culture it is often personified as the Devil. When the personal shadow is unconscious, it merges with the archetypal shadow; then there is no clear distinction between the personal and the archetypal, and one is open to the possibility of actually succumbing to possession by the archetype of evil.( " It took God's greatest and brightest angel to accept the assignment to stand against His children when they want to go their way...you said).That Myth glosses over the other side of good. Evil is not out to help us stay on the straight and narrow.It should horrify you, terrorize you and make you fear for your life were you to get involved or possessed by it. Archetypes when identified with become very dangerous.This is serious business. Wherever there is a vacuum you can bet that evil will take advantage. you said: " Tell me how confusion is different from uncertainty, in spiritual matters or in any other area. Can you have spiritual uncertainty and not be confused? Can you have confusion and still be certain about what you're confused about? I can't see the difference. Confusion is the problem of making choices, As long as we dither and hem and haw we are in self conflict. Unpleasant as long as it lasts. The only way out is to take a risk. that is the only way out of confusion. taking the risk you may be wrong. Once you chose your confusion is over. if the choice was wrong, you will know it and chose again. Confusion is zeroed out by committment to a path. Look, Both animus and anima have the G-d image at their core...or one face of the g-d image( you'll have to go to the collective unconscious to find either, until the crop up in front of you..) The animus can be the greatest spiritual guide on one side or the cruelest woman hater on the other. They are part of the same phenomena. they are both archetypes.Archetypes , says Jung ,have autonomy and can suddenly seize . The non personal shadow is also an archetype. There are two centers to the psyche, the ego and the Self, right? Once the Self erupt, we have an experience of the 'other " s We may have a religion or myth, and to experience it we must have a Self. It is usually described as an experience of G-d. Once the psyche has had this numinous experiences there is no more uncertainty. the experience has touched your soul and you " know it " " individuation, " is Jung's explanation for the whole psychological process in which the ego becomes more and more aware of its own nature, and its ground. This is where ego meets self and humbles itself to the greater Self. It separates from the collective and starts on its own road. We have discovered the reality of the Self.we relegated ego to be small and quiet in its corner. It is the Self, which is in the Collective Unconscious that we suddenly can experience an experience that can knock our socks off. When this numinous experience hits...you have done nothing. Something is happening to you. You feel it as an " other. " This is not some experiment with different dishes, this is the matter of highest import and we do nothing to cause it. (Cooking is not a numinous experience, usually. As you say you are experimenting.) There is no connection with a ';mundane experience. This is not mundane.That is precisely my point. All those confusions are before, when you were personally in charge and thought you were making all the decisions and building a spiritual or religious life, and tryiong out different ideas. After, there is no more trying out. You have decided. You said: " From a very mundane POV, it's like when I don't have the ingredients to make a meal that I'd planned so I " invent " a new recipe. I'm confused because nothing is certain but I have the familiar raw ingredients to combine in a way I haven't tried before and it's exciting because I'm being creative (and that's fun) and I'm eagerly anticipating the creation of a new (and wonderful!) dish. Sometimes it works and I'm pleased. Sometimes I'm disappointed, but in the process I did learn, " Don't mix this with that the next time. " Numinous experiences do not cause confusion...they may be wonderful or awful, but they are definite.And they always " work " The spiritual life is not a master plan for the soul, it is the reaction of the ego to the experience of the Self...or the reaction of our souls to the image of the Image of G-d.Participating in creation is real, but don't you have to see the master plan a tiny bit? I cannot agree that we are playing Russian roulette or even a tame version of it. We are dealing with truth as we experience it. This is the meaning of our lives and experimentation is not up to us. If we have gotten this far, we accept what the experience has taught us, and go on from there strengthened with the truth we have experienced. It is not we who are creative first. we may be creative in our answer, if we wish. you wrote: , I simply rest in " calm and serenity " until the next chance I get to invent something good because I screwed up again and forgot to buy something I needed and once again I have the confusion and excitement of creation. " As Jung understood it and the same with the world's great religious teachers...we do not invent anything. We are the object of the Self's action. We are being acted upon. This is why I reacted to the term " confusion " We have nothing to do with the experiences that come to us. may we be confused as a result? Perhaps, but it is past my imagination or experience. Humbly thankful indeed. you come to the point when you say: " This is true. " What I am suggesting is that this point of rest, a certainty, is valid but that it can be considered as valid for this time and at this point and when I move on, then that certainty is no longer valid for where I am now. In my experience the certainty is valid period. My life has never been the same since this happened the first time to me 30 years ago.I am not likely to forget, to change or to reinterpret the experience of the image of the Imago Dei in my life. I do say: 'as for myself this is truth. Continuing to question at that point for me would have been a refusal of the grace given. you said ; " Anyway, what I'm trying to suggest is that we have to have truths that we depend upon, upon which we can stop and rest when we need to, but that even those certain truths must give way to uncertainty if we want to move on. Have you ever had a numinous experience?. No I don't want an answer. I am asking, because we move on from there with deeper love, deeper experience and constant and deeper thankfulness, praise and awe.I simply cannot see that uncertainty will creep in to something we know in our bones. Sure we can change our understanding if you mean deepening...but not denial that it happened. To my understanding there are not certain truths, just One. I wrote all this although I know from our exchange I am talking at the moment of something you have not experienced as yet.( your own words...) Alice , of course was right. I do admit I took on faith the experiences of others until they were no longer enough. Sooner or later we must take the risk, step out and accept without the slightest idea what it is we are accepting.But a deep need to do just that. That is the leap of faith. All uncertainty comes to a head and we place our bets on the only wager around...that good instead of evil will come from our acceptance and submission.We know we have been acknowledged when love just floats out to all around us and we know we had nothing to do with it. I should not have started on this, but I originally misjudged where you all were coming from. Once deep in the middle I felt I had to finish it out a little. Relax, go with your own flow., as I went with mine. Do what you are led to do after a dose of discernment and don't let me be more than an indication of what 'could' be the experience. All the great saints of all religion and spiritual paths say essentially the same thing after a certain point. The problem is getting from here to there. My experience is mine and may be so completely different for someone else of a different background, tradition and need. I apologize for misreading you where I have. I just felt I had to finish once I got under way. I hope I have learned something from this exchange about beating people over the head with what is so obvious to me...but all will play itself out with all people of goodwill who are seekers. But ...as for the understanding of what " peace " is, please consider widening your definition or you will never understand what those great masters meant by that word.( rest, in its usual connotation is not a synonym) There are different meanings...i opt for the spiritual peace that passeth all understanding. Blessings, Toni Good morning, Toni, Yes, I agree that confusion can be the opposite of peaceful and serene but that doesn't make it a bad thing, IMO. We need peace and serenity in order to rest our minds and bodies but if we rest in that condition too long, we become stultified, we " die, " or at least we stop growing, which is simply a slower form of death. Confusion and chaos, marks of activity, seem to me to be hallmarks of growth even though at the time they often tend to be distressful for many people. As for Satan, the original meaning of the word is simply " the Opposer (or similar definitions), " whose purpose was to stand against us, to move us from our complacency, to more or less get us out of our rut, put us on a different path. For those who fear resistance or who feel that something that's blocking us from getting our way is evil, then Satan can be seen as evil personnified. It took God's greatest and brightest angel to accept the assignment to stand against His children when they want to go their way. >Confusion in the >spiritual life has a different connotation for me, than just lack of >knowledge, uncertainty. And for me, it's all spiritual. Physical, mental, spiritual, confusion has been my lot for some time and sometimes it frustrates me, sometimes I wish it would just leave me alone and sometimes, when I'm feeling particularly strong and hopeful, it's exciting. Tell me how confusion is different from uncertainty, in spiritual matters or in any other area. Can you have spiritual uncertainty and not be confused? Can you have confusion and still be certain about what you're confused about? I can't see the difference. >I would never have thought of 'exciting' as confusion. I don't all the time, of course. From a very mundane POV, it's like when I don't have the ingredients to make a meal that I'd planned so I " invent " a new recipe. I'm confused because nothing is certain but I have the familiar raw ingredients to combine in a way I haven't tried before and it's exciting because I'm being creative (and that's fun) and I'm eagerly anticipating the creation of a new (and wonderful!) dish. Sometimes it works and I'm pleased. Sometimes I'm disappointed, but in the process I did learn, " Don't mix this with that the next time. " Because, you see, there is a next time. But in the meantime, I don't berate myself and continue the sense of distress, I simply rest in " calm and serenity " until the next chance I get to invent something good because I screwed up again and forgot to buy something I needed and once again I have the confusion and excitement of creation. > " A closed mind is a good thing to lose. " > >I know that was just one of your quotes, but I think you believe someone who >insists about certainty about an issue because of an experience or ten which >happened to him ,is somehow a person with a closed mind. An aware person >would continue to question...even after his question has been answered and >the certainty resolved. Am I right??? Well, yeah. And no. If one continues to question, then one is not certain, it seems to me. I'm not advocating permanent and constant confusion and lack of knowledge. There has to be a point upon which one can rest in the knowledge that " This is true. " What I am suggesting is that this point of rest, a certainty, is valid but that it can be considered as valid for this time and at this point and when I move on, then that certainty is no longer valid for where I am now. Another analogy: think of a raft of logs floating on the river, the kind of raft lumberjacks make when they send their logs down to the sawmill. It's really just a bunch of logs floating in a bunch, not attached to each other. The lumberjacks can run along the tops of the logs as long as they don't try to rest too long on any one log, otherwise it will begin to turn and they'll end up losing their footing and falling between the logs and get drowned under the floating wood. Each log can represent a truth one has come to learn but one can't try to balance too long on it or it will no longer support one, one can't be certain of it. In order to stop and rest, there has to be an island of calm and serenity, either a place where the logs are attached to each other to create stability or the river bank. (And, of course, earthquakes can tell us a bit about the actual solidity of the earth!) Anyway, what I'm trying to suggest is that we have to have truths that we depend upon, upon which we can stop and rest when we need to, but that even those certain truths must give way to uncertainty if we want to move on. Confusion is just a greater degree of uncertainty and, IMO, tends to occur when we've resisted motion instead of gracefully moving with the flow. As one who needed a cosmic 2 x 4 between the eyes to get me moving, I can suggest with a fair degree of certainty *G* that resistance can lead to a great amount of pain and confusion that, IMO, could have been avoided if I'd been more willing to accept uncertainty and moved gracefully into the flow instead of having to be flung into the maelstrom. >As Jung was >often quoted as saying. " I do not have to believe in G-d because I know.' >(in close approximation )of what he said on TV to an interviewer. > >In other words, an experience is true for the experience-er. It becomes >convincing because it is personally experienced. Jung did not have a >'closed " mind, because he was certain he had had a numinous experience and >was no longer " uncertain. He did not say it was Truth, just that it was so >for the person having the experience. Yes, and I love this acknowledgement of his experience. And, as you say, he was no longer uncertain, *but* he did not say it was Truth. IOW, as I see it, he was certain of God's existence but he was not necessarily certain of what God is. Even in his certainty he allowed for uncertainty. Not necessarily confusion, but uncertainty. It occurs to me that perhaps these two words reflect more on the state of mind of the experiencer than they do on actual differences between the words. Uncertainty may be a state that one is willing to accept and work with while confusion can represent the exact same situation but is a state that one is resistant to and refusing to work with. I need to ponder that a bit more. >We do not influence the >unconscious...it influences the consciousness. We have actually no control >as something " pops " out of the unconscious. We may later deny, or accept >what has happened. I agree that we do not influence the unconscious or what arises from it. However, I do feel that whatever rises from the unconscious must be " tried " by the conscious. Just because something comes unbidden from the unconscious doesn't make it " right " and, by the same token, just because the conscious refuses to accept what arises doesn't make it " wrong. " The tensions between these two as we try to integrate them is what makes life exciting. And wearing! LOL >The question for all seekers is will they accept it...or keep looking for >the pearl of great price which they already had in their hand and then threw >away as imitation, because they had a preconception of what it should be, >feel like, look like???? Yes, this really is the dilemma, isn't it? One can be certain that one has the pearl and no longer seeks further and yet one can be certain and still be wrong. That's the conundrum. I'm not sure, though, that once one has found the true pearl that there's no going back to it. I'm reminded of the parable where the landowner gave so many talents to each of his subjects: one foolishly spent the treasure; one buried it and didn't do anything else with it; the third took risks and invested it and it grew. All, however, were doing the best they could with how they saw the world at the time. I think all of us have been one of these at various points in our lives. As Pogo said, " They is us. " As usual, Toni, I think we believe much more alike than we are often capable of stating with our words. I'm thinking I'd like to append a poem I wrote a long time ago when I first crashed and was thrown into the maelstrom. It's a bit rough in some spots because I've never gone back to polish it up but I think it addresses our discussion and I really do like some of the visuals in it! LOL It's pretty long; I hope nobody minds. I'm afraid it'll lose some of the formatting, too. Oh, well. Namasté Sam in Texas §(ô¿ô)§ " Life makes you walk that delicate balance between Making It Happen and Letting It Happen. " -- Rick Beneteau Minds are like parachutes; they only function when open. - Sir Dewar A closed mind is a good thing to lose. " Minds are like parachutes; most people use them only as a last resort. " ~Ben Ostrowsky Some minds are like concrete, thoroughly mixed up and permanently set. ~mrantho TRUTH by K. Heggen " Beware of Truth. If you find a Truth it can demand that you make some painful changes. " Herbert Where is Truth? What is Truth? Who is Truth? The truth is, there are many answers, many names, only one Answer, one Truth. Truth is delving deeper and deeper, to determine the smallest particle of the core of truth. Truth is realizing that we're searching in the wrong direction, so our search becomes one of expansion, to get the big picture, the panoramic view, the overarching cause. Our life is knitted of truths dropped like stitches, replaced with corrected ones until life becomes a patchwork of truths. Among them still we find no Truth. Truths that govern our life, fall by the wayside like the leaves of fall. Useful in their lifetime, still beautiful in death, but no longer able to provide sustenance. The more we learn, the more we question. Each knows what Truth is, but none can say with absolute certainty what is true. Why is Truth so important to us? Truth is Life. Truth calls us to be open to risk which may lead to joy or pain - or both. There are no guarantees, and we don't have a choice of which we'll get. Truth is a deep well from which we hope to draw the life-giving drink. If we find it dry, perhaps we didn't dare enough to untie the rope, to let the bucket down, to trust that salvation was there. Fearfully we refuse to untie the knot, believing that to hold on will save us from drowning, as we slowly die of thirst. Truth is as bright and open as the sun, yet we forego its warmth and light for the cold dimness of air-conditioned souls. We cling to our narrow range of stifling comfort rather than dare the uncomfortable chaos of Life. Truth is as simple as the wondrous face of a child returning the gaze of a sunflower. Truth is as complex as the labyrinth forever seducing the lost soul wandering its murderous maze. Truth is as hard to find as the honest man, but Truth is always where we are looking. Truth is as hard and eternal as a diamond, as soft as a baby's sleepy sigh. Truth waits to be accepted. Truth will not seduce you against your will. We search for Truth through our truths, though we will not find Truth through our efforts. But we must never cease to search. Truth can only come to us in the stillness of a quiet soul. Truth is ours for the asking but we can never own it. Truth is an unasked gift but one that we must be willing to accept. Truth promises joy but requires pain and sorrow. There are many truths, only one Truth. Our truth may not be others', but it is no more true than theirs, and no less. The name of truth is Ambiguity, but there is no doubt or falseness in Truth. The name of truth is Contradiction, but there is no contradiction in Truth. Truth is wholeness, completeness, absolute acceptance of all that is. Truth is light and dark, good and evil, self and other, you and me. Truth is everything. Truth is all. Truth is forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2003 Report Share Posted April 9, 2003 In a message dated 4/8/2003 10:00:12 PM Central Daylight Time, toni.toni2@... writes: > you wrote: > " I'm confused because nothing is certain " > You are in for lifelong confusion then. Since we are not in charge of the > universe, this state is permanent. > That has nothing to do with confusion. it is a matter of fact. All we need > to do is realize that. End of confusion. We are not in control. Dear Toni, Yup, I've finally realized that confusion has become my state of life. Only that's not a bad thing, IMO. Once I realized that I'm not really in control of anything, not even my own life, then I could " let go and let God. " IOW, get out of His way and live my life with His guidance instead of trying to push the river. That simply means, of course, that confusion is my judgment of events, not necessarily the reality. Just because I can't see the big picture and it all seems to be a mess doesn't mean it really is. When I could accept that whatever happened was not " wrong, " no matter how terrifying or unpleasant it might be, it became easier to move through it or just learn to live with it. Perhaps this sounds a bit like fatalism but my attitude doesn't preclude my making of plans and looking toward the future. It just means that I don't get attached to the outcomes of those plans. I give up my agenda for God's agenda, all the while believing that whatever I plan and do can be used to fulfill that. >Activity is not always a 'good' thing. It has its own set of >opposites as the rest of life. being busy about many things is not in itself >growth. it is activity, period. Sure , constant anything is counterproductive, whether activity or idleness. There are cycles to everything and it behooves us to notice and participate in them when they involve us even peripherally. Some people get " confused " when they try to buck the cycles of life and that kind of confusion can also be instructive if they allow themselves to realize that they don't know everything they thought they did and if they learn from it. That's possibly the kind of confusion you think of when you hear the term but the kind of confusion I'm speaking of is more of the uncontrollable exuberance of Life. (A picture that springs to mind is a still small pool of water filled with newly hatched pollywogs.) Life is so huge that to the small mind much is unapparent and therefore seems confusing but to accept that the large Mind has no such restrictions can be freeing even in the midst of that " confusion. " >Sorry ,this confusion you idealize is the inability to come up with a >temporary workable solution. No , this confusion is what gives me the options to choose which workable solution I will use. And the willingness to choose another if it presents itself, which can only happen if I'm receptive to its appearance and not locked into another one by the certainty that it's correct. >You have a misconception of " peace' and " serenity " . it is not the absence of >consciousness, nor is it the end of experiencing, or knowing, or loving, or >living. It is not inactivity. This is not my conception of peace and serenity at all and I certainly *G* didn't mean to give the impression that it was. IMO, the only way to experience peace and serenity is to be conscious of it. One can be peaceful in the midst of activity or unpleasant or even dire events but that doesn't mean the events don't hurt, that one doesn't have the opportunity to express appropriate human emotions. One just can realize that if these events are occurring they have a purpose (of which we may or may not be aware) and as Viktor l pointed out, when people feel there is purpose or meaning in their lives they can accept anything with equanimity. >it is rather, an inner state of >not fighting oneself and the world....otherwise known as acceptance, not >death or deathlike. See? We agree even when you attempt to disagree. *S* It's not that we don't believe similarly, I think, it's just that I apparently don't express myself clearly in ways you can understand. >I am afraid you have it backwards . you say: > " We need peace and serenity in order >to rest our minds and bodies but if we rest in that condition too long, we >become stultified, we " die, " or at least we stop growing, which is simply a >slower form of death. >'My peace I give you, is a permanent state of being. It is so very active >and life-giving to all around. it is love and life as it 'should' be.( the >idea of constant motion =progress is a modern one and found by most >philosophers not to so in reality. > >Peace is the only way we 'grow'. we have time to think and look inside. >Peace comes to me while studying, painting, writing, walking the dog, or >changing diapers and taking out the garbage. >Why would peace be universally so revered if it was as " deathlike " as you >say? Hmmm. I'm not sure I said peace was anything like death. And constant motion is not the same as confusion. I can rest in confusion and often do. When I've worked over something and haven't come to any satisfying answers, I'm still confused, but I've learned to simply put the issue aside and let my Self/unconscious work on it while I do something relaxing. Or, as I said earlier, let go and let God. Whatever floats your boat. The point is, you seem to have this picture of confusion as a mess of potage madly boiling over and that's not the confusion I experience, or at least, not all the time. That kind of confusion arises from when I try to be in control and believe I actually can be, when I have an agenda. That's when I generally stir things up, in my mind, at least, and it can become pretty wild. Then Peace is not in the picture. It's when I say, " OK, I've screwed this up pretty well; help me, " that I'm again aware of the underlying Peace in all things and stuff starts to get sorted out - not always or even usually in the way I'd have done it, but hey, I obviously wasn't doing too well anyway! LOL >You also, it seems to me under rate the power of evil. I know the myth of >Satan, Lucifer the light bearer too. you said: > > " As for Satan, the original meaning of the word is simply " the Opposer (or >similar definitions), " whose purpose was to stand against us, to move us >from >our complacency, to more or less get us out of our rut, put us on a >different >path. " > >No no no, at least not in Christianity or Judaism, not in Scripture or in >Myth. I don't know if you've read this or not but you might be interested in it: <A HREF= " http://www.2think.org/hii/pagels.shtml " >Click here: ELAINE PAGELS - THE ORIGIN OF SATAN</A> >Evil is real .Not to move us out of complacency. That can't be done if >we are not conscious. If the prince of darkness was posited to get us out of >a rut, we would have to rewrite the Myth A new Myth might not be a bad thing. If people could come to understand that there is no evil outside them but that everything comes from within, they could begin to take responsibility for their actions rather than say the equivalent of , " The Devil made me do it. " I don't think we'll see this anytime soon. I believe evil actions are real; I don't necessarily believe in a Being contrapuntal to God. There is nothing else but God. > We >knew earlier under Judaism it was the other side of G-d and will be so until >opposites are united within " And there's pretty much my point. It's time. This may be a dualistic world but that needn't preclude the understanding of the play of opposites necessary to operate it {there can be neither all good nor all bad because if there were, it wouldn't be the world we have). With a conscious understanding that others may perform evil acts but that they are not Evil, that we all have within us the ability to do the same given the right set of circumstances (and oh, how I fought that idea! Not me!), then we can understand others better and maybe even finally arrive at the point where we can make conscious choices about the actions we take instead of unconsciously acting out of complexes, archetypes, etc. Why, we could even become spiritual grownups! LOL >Archetypes when identified with become very dangerous.This >is serious business. Amen! But the problem is not with the archetypes, it's with the identification with them, with the individual who does so. >Confusion is the problem of making choices, As long as we dither and hem and >haw we are in self conflict. Unpleasant as long as it lasts. The only way >out is to take a risk. See? We don't disagree nearly as much as it would appear. What we do disagree upon seems to be more about how we view whether something is acceptable or desirable or or unpleasant or whatever. That's personal, and has nothing to do with reality. Some people simply like to have a multitude of choices while others prefer them to be narrowed down. >When this numinous experience hits...you have done nothing. Something is >happening to you. You feel it as an " other. " Actually, I felt it as an enfolding, going within MySelf. >Cooking is not a numinous experience, usually. As you say you are >experimenting.) >There is no connection with a ';mundane experience. This is not mundane.That >is precisely my point. Ah, but you see, this is where we differ mightily. These mundane experiences can be elevated to creative and spiritual experiences by inviting the Self to participate, to ask It to help bring order into this minor chaos. To paraphrase , the Soul likes messy things. *S* Perhaps I might not necessarily reach to the level of the extreme numinosity you might be referring to, but my activity is sacred all the same. (The food tastes better, too, when I invoke the presence of the Self.) But because I've had the major experience, I can recognize its echo in the minor. >Numinous experiences do not cause confusion...they may be wonderful or >awful, but they are definite.And they always " work " Very true. Except occasionally in certain recipes. *G* Or maybe that's when I interfered instead of listening. Could be. >Participating in creation is real, but don't you >have to see the master plan a tiny bit? As long as I don't mistake the tiny bit I see for the whole. That can only lead to confusion. The unpleasant " bad " kind. >I cannot agree that we are playing Russian roulette I don't think I mentioned anything that sounded like this. Where did this concept enter in? >we do not invent anything. We are the object of the Self's >action. We are being acted upon. One of the problems with this type of discussion is the personal pronoun. It can be difficult to indicate what " I " refers to, self or Self. However, that said, I do think my ego/persona has the ability to " invent " from its own base, though often not with the results it would prefer. That's why inviting the Self in to experience through me (boiled egg, anyone?) generally ends up with better inventions. >This is why I reacted to the term " confusion " We have nothing to do with >the experiences that come to us. may we be confused as a result? I think perhaps we might (the " bad " confusion), if we don't understand the relationship between ego and Self. Then we say, " Why me? " I think a better question is, " Why not me? " and even better, " What can I learn? " or " What did I create this experience for? " >In my experience the certainty is valid period. And my experience has shown me that nothing is certain except that God is, and all that implies. That's the only Certainty for me. >Sure we >can change our understanding if you mean deepening...but not denial that it >happened. I don't think I ever mentioned denial in any way. The fact that I was once six years old and believed what a child of six might believe isn't denied by the fact that I'm now 60 and believe differently. I'm simply saying that what's appropriate belief at one stage of growth will (hopefully) give way to something that's more appropriate at another stage. >I know from our exchange I am talking at the >moment of something you have not experienced as yet.( your own words...) I don't know where you got that idea. Would you kindly quote them so I can understand how you came to this conclusion? Maybe my metaphors are too mundane ( " cosmic 2 x 4 between the eyes, " etc.) and if so, I'll try to put them in more Jungian terms if I can. However, my intention is to learn about Jung, not simply use his concepts to describe my experience. I can do that in my own words even if they aren't always understood as well in this arena. > Sooner or later we must take the risk, step out and accept >without the slightest idea what it is we are accepting Sometimes described as stepping off a cliff believing that either there will be something for you to step on or that you will be given the ability to fly. For me, it was " being up in the air with no means of support. I didn't know if I was falling or if I was flying. " >Relax, go with your own flow., as I went with mine. Do what you are >led to do after a dose of discernment and don't let me be more than an >indication of what 'could' be the experience Don't worry 'bout that. *WEG* >all >will play itself out with all people of goodwill who are seekers. I just read something yesterday about " seekers. " A woman wrote: " This running around in circles [ " bad " confusion?], scattering my energy, isn't doing it, and at 54 I'm feeling the need to 'find' whatever it is I'm looking for. " Ingram responded: " My best advice to you is to give up seeking anything outside yourself... [and where is our Divine Guest?] Seeking begins with a thought of deprivation, such as 'something is missing.' ...What if those thoughts of deprivation were released as they arose instead of invested with belief? What if your thoughts turned to an appreciation of life exactly as it is, in all its attendant mystery? [Divine confusion?] ... Can you admit that in your heart of hearts, there are countless things about your sweet existence that you treasure and not much of it relies on knowing the workings of the cosmos? [more Divine confusion?] ... Let these concerns be surrendered to the unknown, the only intelligent place for them. In relaxing into this perspective, the big questions of life simply fall away, and one will be left in gratitude and wonder. " To my way of thinking, this pretty well describes the confusion I try to experience, the sense of wonder and awe in regard to things I know nothing about except that they are wonderful and awe-full. Namasté Sam in Texas §(ô¿ô)§ " Life makes you walk that delicate balance between Making It Happen and Letting It Happen. " -- Rick Beneteau Minds are like parachutes; they only function when open. - Sir Dewar A closed mind is a good thing to lose. " Minds are like parachutes; most people use them only as a last resort. " ~Ben Ostrowsky Some minds are like concrete, thoroughly mixed up and permanently set. ~mrantho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2003 Report Share Posted April 9, 2003 Dear Sam, Thank you for your answers to my questions and statement. You are absolutely right. We are saying the same thing in different words and different frame of references. This, I think is what happens when we try to combine 2 realities, yours and mine. I always forget that human beings are indeed different. I should remember it more often. One's traditions also make a huge difference on how we use words. Of course in my life, the Divine is part of everything I do. I really thought...but maybe it was in a post to someone else...I find it very much a part of my experiences. That is part of every spiritual tradition as far as I know, in some form or other. Did you read the old prayer I quoted to Alice? A good old Episcopal prayer out of the old " Book of Common Prayer " Amore fati, the idea you quote is also part of this for me. We are different people...you will always do what is right in your eyes.. But, I do add, to me, some of what you say seems to contradict other parts of what you say. But, enough of this talking at cross purposes.. I do have some idea of where you are coming from and it isn't all that far from where I am at the moment...though if you will forgive me, our paths are somewhat different which they must be of necessity as we are products of different environments. I use spiritual terms which I retranslate in Jung...or I use Jungian terms and retranslate them to orthodox spiritual words. Our Selves also deal with us differently. Very differently, yet toward a common goal. I should not try to understand...just accept what other s are telling me about their " way " . As for numinous experiences, they too will be different because we all have a different understanding of that word alone.( One persons numinous experience may be another person's idea of fantasy, dream,nightmare, illusions. Our understanding of metanoia or baptism in the Spirit is also different if you even use those terms. Our needs although basically human and similar are different as is our image of the Image of G-d. After all is said and done, it is by our fruits that we will be judged by others.And all these words are supposed to end with loving subjects. Lucky for me that I am not born 100 years ago and tempted to write a book on the spiritual life. I do not have the slightest idea of that author you mentioned, and I know we read and are influenced by totally different images. Pagels, of course I know and have read, I believe all she wrote. She was discussing Gnostic practices, in the part you are referring to. It really makes no difference, but she is a historian, not a psychologist or theologian...(Bless her for that) You and I and orthodox theology differ very much on the understanding of Evil. It is not, in my conception only what springs into our psyches. It is wholly other. But I have no intention on going further with this. Much evil is not easily classified, and better to remember that G-d is " a G-d of weal and woe, " than to minimize it by calling it purely human. It is mystery pure and simple with no rational explanation, but it is not human. Victor el I have met personally and I have thought about, heard him lecture and read what he wrote. He and his logotherapy are a light in our darkness to me So, thanks again for this exchange. I hope I am learning that " my way " is only " my " way, yet all the books I have read and preaching, and lecture I have experienced are from the same tradition. I consider my greatest source to be Scripture. Sara you are great. Thanks for sharing yourself with me, Toni. Re: unity through separation In a message dated 4/8/2003 10:00:12 PM Central Daylight Time, toni.toni2@... writes: > you wrote: > " I'm confused because nothing is certain " > You are in for lifelong confusion then. Since we are not in charge of the > universe, this state is permanent. > That has nothing to do with confusion. it is a matter of fact. All we need > to do is realize that. End of confusion. We are not in control. Dear Toni, Yup, I've finally realized that confusion has become my state of life. Only that's not a bad thing, IMO. Once I realized that I'm not really in control of anything, not even my own life, then I could " let go and let God. " IOW, get out of His way and live my life with His guidance instead of trying to push the river. That simply means, of course, that confusion is my judgment of events, not necessarily the reality. Just because I can't see the big picture and it all seems to be a mess doesn't mean it really is. When I could accept that whatever happened was not " wrong, " no matter how terrifying or unpleasant it might be, it became easier to move through it or just learn to live with it. Perhaps this sounds a bit like fatalism but my attitude doesn't preclude my making of plans and looking toward the future. It just means that I don't get attached to the outcomes of those plans. I give up my agenda for God's agenda, all the while believing that whatever I plan and do can be used to fulfill that. >Activity is not always a 'good' thing. It has its own set of >opposites as the rest of life. being busy about many things is not in itself >growth. it is activity, period. Sure , constant anything is counterproductive, whether activity or idleness. There are cycles to everything and it behooves us to notice and participate in them when they involve us even peripherally. Some people get " confused " when they try to buck the cycles of life and that kind of confusion can also be instructive if they allow themselves to realize that they don't know everything they thought they did and if they learn from it. That's possibly the kind of confusion you think of when you hear the term but the kind of confusion I'm speaking of is more of the uncontrollable exuberance of Life. (A picture that springs to mind is a still small pool of water filled with newly hatched pollywogs.) Life is so huge that to the small mind much is unapparent and therefore seems confusing but to accept that the large Mind has no such restrictions can be freeing even in the midst of that " confusion. " >Sorry ,this confusion you idealize is the inability to come up with a >temporary workable solution. No , this confusion is what gives me the options to choose which workable solution I will use. And the willingness to choose another if it presents itself, which can only happen if I'm receptive to its appearance and not locked into another one by the certainty that it's correct. >You have a misconception of " peace' and " serenity " . it is not the absence of >consciousness, nor is it the end of experiencing, or knowing, or loving, or >living. It is not inactivity. This is not my conception of peace and serenity at all and I certainly *G* didn't mean to give the impression that it was. IMO, the only way to experience peace and serenity is to be conscious of it. One can be peaceful in the midst of activity or unpleasant or even dire events but that doesn't mean the events don't hurt, that one doesn't have the opportunity to express appropriate human emotions. One just can realize that if these events are occurring they have a purpose (of which we may or may not be aware) and as Viktor l pointed out, when people feel there is purpose or meaning in their lives they can accept anything with equanimity. >it is rather, an inner state of >not fighting oneself and the world....otherwise known as acceptance, not >death or deathlike. See? We agree even when you attempt to disagree. *S* It's not that we don't believe similarly, I think, it's just that I apparently don't express myself clearly in ways you can understand. >I am afraid you have it backwards . you say: > " We need peace and serenity in order >to rest our minds and bodies but if we rest in that condition too long, we >become stultified, we " die, " or at least we stop growing, which is simply a >slower form of death. >'My peace I give you, is a permanent state of being. It is so very active >and life-giving to all around. it is love and life as it 'should' be.( the >idea of constant motion =progress is a modern one and found by most >philosophers not to so in reality. > >Peace is the only way we 'grow'. we have time to think and look inside. >Peace comes to me while studying, painting, writing, walking the dog, or >changing diapers and taking out the garbage. >Why would peace be universally so revered if it was as " deathlike " as you >say? Hmmm. I'm not sure I said peace was anything like death. And constant motion is not the same as confusion. I can rest in confusion and often do. When I've worked over something and haven't come to any satisfying answers, I'm still confused, but I've learned to simply put the issue aside and let my Self/unconscious work on it while I do something relaxing. Or, as I said earlier, let go and let God. Whatever floats your boat. The point is, you seem to have this picture of confusion as a mess of potage madly boiling over and that's not the confusion I experience, or at least, not all the time. That kind of confusion arises from when I try to be in control and believe I actually can be, when I have an agenda. That's when I generally stir things up, in my mind, at least, and it can become pretty wild. Then Peace is not in the picture. It's when I say, " OK, I've screwed this up pretty well; help me, " that I'm again aware of the underlying Peace in all things and stuff starts to get sorted out - not always or even usually in the way I'd have done it, but hey, I obviously wasn't doing too well anyway! LOL >You also, it seems to me under rate the power of evil. I know the myth of >Satan, Lucifer the light bearer too. you said: > > " As for Satan, the original meaning of the word is simply " the Opposer (or >similar definitions), " whose purpose was to stand against us, to move us >from >our complacency, to more or less get us out of our rut, put us on a >different >path. " > >No no no, at least not in Christianity or Judaism, not in Scripture or in >Myth. I don't know if you've read this or not but you might be interested in it: <A HREF= " http://www.2think.org/hii/pagels.shtml " >Click here: ELAINE PAGELS - THE ORIGIN OF SATAN</A> >Evil is real .Not to move us out of complacency. That can't be done if >we are not conscious. If the prince of darkness was posited to get us out of >a rut, we would have to rewrite the Myth A new Myth might not be a bad thing. If people could come to understand that there is no evil outside them but that everything comes from within, they could begin to take responsibility for their actions rather than say the equivalent of , " The Devil made me do it. " I don't think we'll see this anytime soon. I believe evil actions are real; I don't necessarily believe in a Being contrapuntal to God. There is nothing else but God. > We >knew earlier under Judaism it was the other side of G-d and will be so until >opposites are united within " And there's pretty much my point. It's time. This may be a dualistic world but that needn't preclude the understanding of the play of opposites necessary to operate it {there can be neither all good nor all bad because if there were, it wouldn't be the world we have). With a conscious understanding that others may perform evil acts but that they are not Evil, that we all have within us the ability to do the same given the right set of circumstances (and oh, how I fought that idea! Not me!), then we can understand others better and maybe even finally arrive at the point where we can make conscious choices about the actions we take instead of unconsciously acting out of complexes, archetypes, etc. Why, we could even become spiritual grownups! LOL >Archetypes when identified with become very dangerous.This >is serious business. Amen! But the problem is not with the archetypes, it's with the identification with them, with the individual who does so. >Confusion is the problem of making choices, As long as we dither and hem and >haw we are in self conflict. Unpleasant as long as it lasts. The only way >out is to take a risk. See? We don't disagree nearly as much as it would appear. What we do disagree upon seems to be more about how we view whether something is acceptable or desirable or or unpleasant or whatever. That's personal, and has nothing to do with reality. Some people simply like to have a multitude of choices while others prefer them to be narrowed down. >When this numinous experience hits...you have done nothing. Something is >happening to you. You feel it as an " other. " Actually, I felt it as an enfolding, going within MySelf. >Cooking is not a numinous experience, usually. As you say you are >experimenting.) >There is no connection with a ';mundane experience. This is not mundane.That >is precisely my point. Ah, but you see, this is where we differ mightily. These mundane experiences can be elevated to creative and spiritual experiences by inviting the Self to participate, to ask It to help bring order into this minor chaos. To paraphrase , the Soul likes messy things. *S* Perhaps I might not necessarily reach to the level of the extreme numinosity you might be referring to, but my activity is sacred all the same. (The food tastes better, too, when I invoke the presence of the Self.) But because I've had the major experience, I can recognize its echo in the minor. >Numinous experiences do not cause confusion...they may be wonderful or >awful, but they are definite.And they always " work " Very true. Except occasionally in certain recipes. *G* Or maybe that's when I interfered instead of listening. Could be. >Participating in creation is real, but don't you >have to see the master plan a tiny bit? As long as I don't mistake the tiny bit I see for the whole. That can only lead to confusion. The unpleasant " bad " kind. >I cannot agree that we are playing Russian roulette I don't think I mentioned anything that sounded like this. Where did this concept enter in? >we do not invent anything. We are the object of the Self's >action. We are being acted upon. One of the problems with this type of discussion is the personal pronoun. It can be difficult to indicate what " I " refers to, self or Self. However, that said, I do think my ego/persona has the ability to " invent " from its own base, though often not with the results it would prefer. That's why inviting the Self in to experience through me (boiled egg, anyone?) generally ends up with better inventions. >This is why I reacted to the term " confusion " We have nothing to do with >the experiences that come to us. may we be confused as a result? I think perhaps we might (the " bad " confusion), if we don't understand the relationship between ego and Self. Then we say, " Why me? " I think a better question is, " Why not me? " and even better, " What can I learn? " or " What did I create this experience for? " >In my experience the certainty is valid period. And my experience has shown me that nothing is certain except that God is, and all that implies. That's the only Certainty for me. >Sure we >can change our understanding if you mean deepening...but not denial that it >happened. I don't think I ever mentioned denial in any way. The fact that I was once six years old and believed what a child of six might believe isn't denied by the fact that I'm now 60 and believe differently. I'm simply saying that what's appropriate belief at one stage of growth will (hopefully) give way to something that's more appropriate at another stage. >I know from our exchange I am talking at the >moment of something you have not experienced as yet.( your own words...) I don't know where you got that idea. Would you kindly quote them so I can understand how you came to this conclusion? Maybe my metaphors are too mundane ( " cosmic 2 x 4 between the eyes, " etc.) and if so, I'll try to put them in more Jungian terms if I can. However, my intention is to learn about Jung, not simply use his concepts to describe my experience. I can do that in my own words even if they aren't always understood as well in this arena. > Sooner or later we must take the risk, step out and accept >without the slightest idea what it is we are accepting Sometimes described as stepping off a cliff believing that either there will be something for you to step on or that you will be given the ability to fly. For me, it was " being up in the air with no means of support. I didn't know if I was falling or if I was flying. " >Relax, go with your own flow., as I went with mine. Do what you are >led to do after a dose of discernment and don't let me be more than an >indication of what 'could' be the experience Don't worry 'bout that. *WEG* >all >will play itself out with all people of goodwill who are seekers. I just read something yesterday about " seekers. " A woman wrote: " This running around in circles [ " bad " confusion?], scattering my energy, isn't doing it, and at 54 I'm feeling the need to 'find' whatever it is I'm looking for. " Ingram responded: " My best advice to you is to give up seeking anything outside yourself... [and where is our Divine Guest?] Seeking begins with a thought of deprivation, such as 'something is missing.' ...What if those thoughts of deprivation were released as they arose instead of invested with belief? What if your thoughts turned to an appreciation of life exactly as it is, in all its attendant mystery? [Divine confusion?] ... Can you admit that in your heart of hearts, there are countless things about your sweet existence that you treasure and not much of it relies on knowing the workings of the cosmos? [more Divine confusion?] ... Let these concerns be surrendered to the unknown, the only intelligent place for them. In relaxing into this perspective, the big questions of life simply fall away, and one will be left in gratitude and wonder. " To my way of thinking, this pretty well describes the confusion I try to experience, the sense of wonder and awe in regard to things I know nothing about except that they are wonderful and awe-full. Namasté Sam in Texas §(ô¿ô)§ " Life makes you walk that delicate balance between Making It Happen and Letting It Happen. " -- Rick Beneteau Minds are like parachutes; they only function when open. - Sir Dewar A closed mind is a good thing to lose. " Minds are like parachutes; most people use them only as a last resort. " ~Ben Ostrowsky Some minds are like concrete, thoroughly mixed up and permanently set. ~mrantho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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