Re: Greg - Anima/Animus a P.P.S.

[Guest guest]

Sorry! That lengthy quote did not refer to Foucalt's " Death of the

Author " ... I thought it did & did a creless " cut and paste " . Can give you

a quote on the " Death of the Author " if you like.

By, the way I mention Foucault " en route " to where I'm trying to get

to, namely that archetypal symbols transcend " authorship " (that's a

bit of an over-simplification but it'll do!!!)

[Guest guest]

--- Mandorla wrote:

> Sorry! That lengthy quote did not refer to

> Foucalt's " Death of the

> Author " ... I thought it did & did a creless " cut

> and paste " . Can give you

> a quote on the " Death of the Author " if you like.

,

Yes, please give the quote if you would. And thanks

for the earlier interesting quote. While I couldn't

see you it related to our earlier posts, I did find

her ideas stimulating. But it seems to me that, in her

long explanation of the power drive within - as far as

I could understand it - she was mixing up the idea of

ego with that of Self (in the Jungian sense of that

term).

Much of my own struggle to " Know MySelf) has been to

observe and confront my own power drive within. In my

case it has been bound up in the ancient teutonic

Wotan archetype - a most fearful one indeed. And in

the process of contfronting him I have found great

meaning in the words of our resident wise " old lady "

has shared with us here many a time, the idea of the

three legged stool, that " holy " trinity: love, power,

wisdom (which must ever be kept in proper balance with

one another).

> By, the way I mention Foucault " en route " to

> where I'm trying to get

> to, namely that archetypal symbols transcend

> " authorship " (that's a

> bit of an over-simplification but it'll do!!!)

I think I understand your meaning here. Perhaps we

could recast it in this way (again Jungian - as I

understand it): When the author is the Divine Self/

the Essence within, as opposed to the ego, the power

is of a different nature - truly powerful. But when

the author is the ego state, it is of lower, inferior

character. Maybe that is not exactly what you meant

though. According to my understanding of Jung's idea

of the archetypes, they are indeed the primordial

energies within (who also can " author " from time to

time). I am now reading Shinoda Bolen's wonderful

book: GODS IN EVERYMAN, which deals with this subject.

[ BTW, I'm looking forward to meeting again in a

few weeks when she lectures here in my city]. And as

Jung pointed out on many occasions, the archetypes are

truly AUTONOMOUS, with an origin and energy of their

own, not of our " making " . This accounts for their

mystery and the numinousity in our lives. As we

individuate, it becomes our responsibility to

recognize them, and not to identify with (and

certainly not to project) them. Would you agree?

Greg

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Greg.

Firstly, a confession, I " normally " remain a " lurker " in this group.

I suffer from chronic depression (a product of PTSD) and this tends to

stuff up my ability to articulate.

YES!!! It is not " I " , my egoic self, who has produced my best work, it has

ALWAYS been the " God within " , or the " numinous Self " ,

When you write:

" This accounts for their mystery and the numinousity in our lives. As we

individuate, it becomes our responsibility to recognize them, and not to

identify with (and certainly not to project) them "

I can only say a " AMEN " .

I would like to say more, so much more, but I will confine myself to

saying that even the darkness of chronic depression evidences the

numinous light of the Self.

Sorry if I sound like a " nutter " !

I can't put my hands on Foucault " Death of the Author " right now. But,

at the risk of leaving you scratching your head, here is

an extract from " The Marriage Of Sense And Soul: Integrating Science And

Religion " by Ken Wilber (pp. 129-310). It may not seem to have much to

do with with the price of eggs, however it points to the inability of

the ego, in this case the post modernist ego, to apprehend the

all-pervasive mystery and the numinousity in human life or discourse.

I hope I have not muddied the waters too much!!!

*****************************************************

LANGUAGE GROANS

The postmodern poststructuralists took many of these profound and

indispensable notions and, in carrying them to extremes, rendered them

virtually useless. They did not just situate individual intentionality in

background cultural contexts, they tried to erase the individual subject

altogether: " the death of man, " " the death of the author, " " the death of

the subject " -all were naked attempts to reduce the subject (Upper Left) to

nothing but intersubjective structures (Lower Left). " Language " replaced

" humans " as the agent of history. It is not I, the subject, who is now

speaking, it is nothing but impersonal language and linguistic structure

speaking through me.

Thus, as only one of innumerable examples, Foucault would proclaim

that " Lacan's importance comes from the fact that he showed how it is the

structures, the very system of language, that speak through the patient's

discourse and the symptoms of his neurosis-not the subject. " Upper Left

reduced to Lower Left, to what Foucault famously called " this anonymous

system without a subject. "

Thus I, Ken Wilber, am not writing these words, nor am I in any way

primarily responsible for them; language is actually doing all the work

(although this did not prevent I, Roland Barthes, or I, Michel Foucault,

from accepting the royalty checks written to the author that supposedly

did not exist).

Put simply, the fact that each " I " is always situated in a background " We "

was perverted into the notion that there is no " I " at all, but only an

allpervading " We " - no individual subjects, only vast networks of

intersubjective and linguistic structures. (Buddhists, take note: this was

in no way the notion of anatta, or noself, because the " I " was replaced,

not with Emptiness, but with finite linguistic structures of the " We, " thus

multiplying, not transcending, the actual problem.)

Foucault eventually rejected the extremism of his early stance, a fact

studiously ignored by extreme postmodernists. Among other hilarious

spectacles, postmodernist biographers began trying to write biographies of

subjects that supposedly did not exist in the first place, thus producing

books that were about as interesting as dinner without food.

For Saussure, the signifier and signified were an integrated unit (a

holon); but the postmodern poststructuralists-and this was one of their

most defining moves-shattered this unity by attempting to place almost

exclusive emphasis on sliding chains of signifiers alone. The

signifiers-the actual material or written marks-were given virtually

exclusive priority. They were thus severed from both their signif1eds and

their referents, and these chains of sliding or " freefloating " signifiers

were therefore said to be anchored in nothing but power, prejudice, or

ideology. (We see again the extreme constructivism so characteristic of

postmodernism: signif1ers are not anchored in any truth or reality outside

of themselves, but simply create or construct all realities.)

Sliding chains of signifiers: this is the essential postmodern

poststructuralist move. It is postSTRUCTURAL, because it starts with

Saussure's insights into the networklike structure of linguistic signs,

which partially construct as well as partially represent; but

POSTstructural, because the signifiers are cut loose from any sort of

anchoring at all. There is no objective truth (only interpretations), and

thus, according to extreme postmodernists, signifiers are grounded in

nothing but power, prejudice, ideology, gender, race, colonialism,

speciesism, and so on (a performative contradiction that would mean that

this theory itself must also be anchored in nothing but power, prejudice,

etc., in which case it is just as vile as the theories it despises).

This is exactly where the postmodern agenda would often hook up with the

misKuhnian notion of " paradigm. " It was a marriage made in interpretive

heaven for all those who wished to " deconstruct " the " old paradigm " and

replace it with the " new paradigm, " which itself lacked any genuine

exemplars or injunctions and thus, according to Kuhn's actual notion of

paradigm, was no such thing at all, but merely ideology dressed up as

cultural studies, narcissism and nihilism in transformational drag. "

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I, too have suffered from PTSS, and depression. I also have said that never

did I ever think to fall in despair. I always knew that someday I would be

out of it.

your:

" saying that even the darkness of chronic depression evidences the

> numinous light of the Self. "

I am no longer depressed, at the moment anyway, nor have been since starting

analysis ( 8 years ago.). I think it is impossible to go through analysis

depressed, because I do not listen well when I am caught up in my own

emotions.

My first depression ended suddenly when I finally understood that my

depression had been caused by my heaping on my own head , through guilt, the

anger that I felt I could not acknowledge in the pertinent community. It

took awhile, but I slowly discovered I was not to blame for everything wrong

in the universe, and it was OK to assume blame only for my portion of it.

My second major depression ended quite suddenly when my psychiatrist

immediately prescribed Prosac. He said, he could not deal with me, until my

mind was ready to receive it. I guess he was right, since my rages at loved

one's disappeared as I began to understand more fully the " why "

I come from a family in which every member had depression, not to mention a

whopper of PTSD, not yet " discovered " (not helped by W.W.II ) I had seen it

in my parents and my sister, so I saw what havoc it could cause to those

around the depressed one. I swore I would never do that....but, of course I

did.

I read every book on depression written, I think. Tried to talk myself out

of it, beat myself over the head and weep.

I know and knew then, that there would be a way out....and I knew my imago

G-d would be in it.

Out of 2 adopted and 2 natural born children, all have had depressions, some

serious. There is nothing that a parent can do but watch with compassion and

leave them to their inner Self.( and not tell oneself one must have been a

horrible mother to bring this one)

I am full of empathy for you. It is a monumental task to become so conscious

that one understands the suffering.

But, from where I sit now, I would not give up those depressions for

anything. I learned a lot about love, compassion and empathy from them. I

also learned to forgive the monsters in my own mind and the real " monsters "

I don't think health is possible without that step. Sometimes, I think we

can not even grasp the concept while we are in the midst of depression, that

is who I am so thankful Prosac was invented. It made me well enough to

listen and learn.

Sorry, everyone for bringing up my life so often, but that is really the

only thing I can speak from, my own experiences. It is written only in the

hope that it comforts some, to know that one is not alone.

Toni

Re: Greg - Anima/Animus a P.P.S.

> Greg.

>

> Firstly, a confession, I " normally " remain a " lurker " in this group.

>

> I suffer from chronic depression (a product of PTSD) and this tends to

> stuff up my ability to articulate.

>

> YES!!! It is not " I " , my egoic self, who has produced my best work, it

has

> ALWAYS been the " God within " , or the " numinous Self " ,

>

> When you write:

snip

>> I would like to say more, so much more, but I will confine myself to

>>

> Sorry if I sound like a " nutter " !

>

> I can't put my hands on Foucault " Death of the Author " right now. But,

> at the risk of leaving you scratching your head, here is

> an extract from " The Marriage Of Sense And Soul: Integrating Science

And

> Religion " by Ken Wilber (pp. 129-310). It may not seem to have much to

> do with with the price of eggs, however it points to the inability of

> the ego, in this case the post modernist ego, to apprehend the

> all-pervasive mystery and the numinousity in human life or discourse.

>

> I hope I have not muddied the waters too much!!!

>

>

>

> *****************************************************

> LANGUAGE GROANS

>

> The postmodern poststructuralists took many of these profound and

> indispensable notions and, in carrying them to extremes, rendered them

> virtually useless. They did not just situate individual intentionality in

> background cultural contexts, they tried to erase the individual subject

> altogether: " the death of man, " " the death of the author, " " the death of

> the subject " -all were naked attempts to reduce the subject (Upper Left) to

> nothing but intersubjective structures (Lower Left). " Language " replaced

> " humans " as the agent of history. It is not I, the subject, who is now

> speaking, it is nothing but impersonal language and linguistic structure

> speaking through me.

>

> Thus, as only one of innumerable examples, Foucault would proclaim

> that " Lacan's importance comes from the fact that he showed how it is the

> structures, the very system of language, that speak through the patient's

> discourse and the symptoms of his neurosis-not the subject. " Upper Left

> reduced to Lower Left, to what Foucault famously called " this anonymous

> system without a subject. "

>

> Thus I, Ken Wilber, am not writing these words, nor am I in any way

> primarily responsible for them; language is actually doing all the work

> (although this did not prevent I, Roland Barthes, or I, Michel Foucault,

> from accepting the royalty checks written to the author that supposedly

> did not exist).

>

> Put simply, the fact that each " I " is always situated in a background " We "

> was perverted into the notion that there is no " I " at all, but only an

> allpervading " We " - no individual subjects, only vast networks of

> intersubjective and linguistic structures. (Buddhists, take note: this was

> in no way the notion of anatta, or noself, because the " I " was replaced,

> not with Emptiness, but with finite linguistic structures of the " We, "

thus

> multiplying, not transcending, the actual problem.)

>

> Foucault eventually rejected the extremism of his early stance, a fact

> studiously ignored by extreme postmodernists. Among other hilarious

> spectacles, postmodernist biographers began trying to write biographies of

> subjects that supposedly did not exist in the first place, thus producing

> books that were about as interesting as dinner without food.

>

> For Saussure, the signifier and signified were an integrated unit (a

> holon); but the postmodern poststructuralists-and this was one of their

> most defining moves-shattered this unity by attempting to place almost

> exclusive emphasis on sliding chains of signifiers alone. The

> signifiers-the actual material or written marks-were given virtually

> exclusive priority. They were thus severed from both their signif1eds and

> their referents, and these chains of sliding or " freefloating " signifiers

> were therefore said to be anchored in nothing but power, prejudice, or

> ideology. (We see again the extreme constructivism so characteristic of

> postmodernism: signif1ers are not anchored in any truth or reality outside

> of themselves, but simply create or construct all realities.)

>

> Sliding chains of signifiers: this is the essential postmodern

> poststructuralist move. It is postSTRUCTURAL, because it starts with

> Saussure's insights into the networklike structure of linguistic signs,

> which partially construct as well as partially represent; but

> POSTstructural, because the signifiers are cut loose from any sort of

> anchoring at all. There is no objective truth (only interpretations), and

> thus, according to extreme postmodernists, signifiers are grounded in

> nothing but power, prejudice, ideology, gender, race, colonialism,

> speciesism, and so on (a performative contradiction that would mean that

> this theory itself must also be anchored in nothing but power, prejudice,

> etc., in which case it is just as vile as the theories it despises).

> This is exactly where the postmodern agenda would often hook up with the

> misKuhnian notion of " paradigm. " It was a marriage made in interpretive

> heaven for all those who wished to " deconstruct " the " old paradigm " and

> replace it with the " new paradigm, " which itself lacked any genuine

> exemplars or injunctions and thus, according to Kuhn's actual notion of

> paradigm, was no such thing at all, but merely ideology dressed up as

> cultural studies, narcissism and nihilism in transformational drag. "

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Toni, , all,

" Vienna "

Friday, August 30, 2002 1:34 PM

T:> Sorry, everyone for bringing up my life so often, but that is really the

> only thing I can speak from, my own experiences. It is written only in the

> hope that it comforts some, to know that one is not alone.

N: I, for one, am glad that you refer back to your own experience. It is

said that healing comes through relationship and not through concepts alone.

The more we can concretize our thinking with life happenings the more real

it becomes for others.

I can't always find an exact handle to your experiences and make them my

own, nor I'd guess can anyone, but nonetheless yours and those of others Do

help in our pursuit of understanding.

Blessings,

[Guest guest]

--- Mandorla wrote:

> Greg.

> Firstly, a confession, I " normally " remain a

> " lurker " in this group.

I know the lurker status very well. I took it myself

for many months before I finally found the courage to

" speak up " . In those we had a wonderful woman named

Maureen as our moderator. The love she radiated and

her kindness to my early tentative attempts put me at

ease and drew me in. And now I can't keep my mouth

shut. I hope you will feel comfortable, little by

little, in speaking up too . You have much to

offer us here around the fire. And I'm sure that there

are many others whose voices deserve to be heard. I

hope they will let us hear from them too.

> I suffer from chronic depression (a product of

> PTSD) and this tends to stuff up my ability to

> articulate.

Perhaps speaking out here will help you improve your

articulation....and help us too.

> Sorry if I sound like a " nutter " !

Absolutely not! I hope you will contribute often.

We all learn from each other. And believe me, one need

only review the archives to prove to oneself that we

can all be nutty here from time to time. I'm probably

more guilty than most.

It may not

> seem to have much to

> do with with the price of eggs, however it points

> to the inability of

> the ego, in this case the post modernist ego, to

> apprehend the

> all-pervasive mystery and the numinousity in human

> life or discourse.

>

> I hope I have not muddied the waters too much!!!

This brings to mind an excerpt from a wonderful book,

C.G.JUNG AND HERMAN HESSE, by Serrano, a man

who befriended both these giants at the end of their

lives. Serrano visited Jung at his home in Kusnact in

the last months of his life. The interactions between

them was so moving and touching, yet it demonstated

Jung's curiousity about life to the very end. Here is

a short piece that your statement reminded me of:

(pg. 102)

" 'Space flights to other worlds are still a long way

off,' Jung answered. 'Sooner or late man will have to

return to earth, and to the land from which he comes;

that is to say, man will have to return to himself.

Space flights are merely an escape, a fleeing away

from oneself, because it is easier to go to Mars or to

the moon than it is to penetrate one's own being. But

what is dangerous about this fanatic interest in

spatial conquest is that it symbolizes a state of

complete anxiety in man. This anxiety would seem to be

caused by a fear of the world's population explosion.

In a way, space flights seem to be an instinctive

reaction to this problem.' "

There is another section in which they are discussing

Jung's old friend in the Southwest USA, the Pueblo

Chief, Mountain Lake:

" He gave his impressions of the white man, and said

that they were always upset, always looking for

something, and that as a consequence, their faces were

lined with wrinkles, which he took to be a sign of

eternal restlessness. Mountain Lake also thought that

the whites were crazy since they maintained that they

thought with their heads, whereas it was well-known

that only crazy people did that. This assertion by the

chief of the Pueblos so surprised me that I asked him

how he thought. He answered that he naturally throught

with his heart. And then Jung added, 'And that is how

the ancient Greeks also thought.' 'But do you believe

that white people thing with their heads?' 'No, They

think only with their tongues.' Jung then placed his

hand on his neck. 'They think only with words, with

words which today have replaced the Logos...' "

I am pondering if and how much I think with MY heart.

Greg

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Thanks, everybody, for your encouragement, I REALLY appreciate it.

I have given the label " PTSD " to my condition ... because everybody

knows what it is.

But apparently my condition is more correctly described as " Enduring

Personality Change After a Catastrophic Event " .... the sort of

permanent personality change that occured to so many Jews who survived the

concentration camps. Toni will know all about that, because from what she

has said, I think her parents had the same condition. But as soon as I say

that I feel a fraud, a malingerer, a liar, because I know the abuse

I suffered could never, never, be put on a par with the suffering of the

Jews under the Nazis.

I wish Prozac did work, I wish any antidepressant worked! And, if

you'll forgive my lavatory humour, I wish Viagra worked. Both don't work

for the same reason!

Kindest Regards.

Pete.

At 02:36 PM 30/08/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>--- Mandorla wrote:

> > Greg.

> > Firstly, a confession, I " normally " remain a

> > " lurker " in this group.

>

>I know the lurker status very well. I took it myself

>for many months before I finally found the courage to

> " speak up " . In those we had a wonderful woman named

>Maureen as our moderator. The love she radiated and

>her kindness to my early tentative attempts put me at

>ease and drew me in. And now I can't keep my mouth

>shut. I hope you will feel comfortable, little by

>little, in speaking up too . You have much to

>offer us here around the fire. And I'm sure that there

>are many others whose voices deserve to be heard. I

>hope they will let us hear from them too.

>

> > I suffer from chronic depression (a product of

> > PTSD) and this tends to stuff up my ability to

> > articulate.

>

>Perhaps speaking out here will help you improve your

>articulation....and help us too.

>

> > Sorry if I sound like a " nutter " !

>

>Absolutely not! I hope you will contribute often.

>We all learn from each other. And believe me, one need

>only review the archives to prove to oneself that we

>can all be nutty here from time to time. I'm probably

>more guilty than most.

>

> It may not

> > seem to have much to

> > do with with the price of eggs, however it points

> > to the inability of

> > the ego, in this case the post modernist ego, to

> > apprehend the

> > all-pervasive mystery and the numinousity in human

> > life or discourse.

> >

> > I hope I have not muddied the waters too much!!!

>

>This brings to mind an excerpt from a wonderful book,

>C.G.JUNG AND HERMAN HESSE, by Serrano, a man

>who befriended both these giants at the end of their

>lives. Serrano visited Jung at his home in Kusnact in

>the last months of his life. The interactions between

>them was so moving and touching, yet it demonstated

>Jung's curiousity about life to the very end. Here is

>a short piece that your statement reminded me of:

>

>(pg. 102)

> " 'Space flights to other worlds are still a long way

>off,' Jung answered. 'Sooner or late man will have to

>return to earth, and to the land from which he comes;

>that is to say, man will have to return to himself.

>Space flights are merely an escape, a fleeing away

>from oneself, because it is easier to go to Mars or to

>the moon than it is to penetrate one's own being. But

>what is dangerous about this fanatic interest in

>spatial conquest is that it symbolizes a state of

>complete anxiety in man. This anxiety would seem to be

>caused by a fear of the world's population explosion.

>In a way, space flights seem to be an instinctive

>reaction to this problem.' "

>

>There is another section in which they are discussing

>Jung's old friend in the Southwest USA, the Pueblo

>Chief, Mountain Lake:

>

> " He gave his impressions of the white man, and said

>that they were always upset, always looking for

>something, and that as a consequence, their faces were

>lined with wrinkles, which he took to be a sign of

>eternal restlessness. Mountain Lake also thought that

>the whites were crazy since they maintained that they

>thought with their heads, whereas it was well-known

>that only crazy people did that. This assertion by the

>chief of the Pueblos so surprised me that I asked him

>how he thought. He answered that he naturally throught

>with his heart. And then Jung added, 'And that is how

>the ancient Greeks also thought.' 'But do you believe

>that white people thing with their heads?' 'No, They

>think only with their tongues.' Jung then placed his

>hand on his neck. 'They think only with words, with

>words which today have replaced the Logos...' "

>

>I am pondering if and how much I think with MY heart.

>

>Greg

>

>__________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Pete,

If I am prying do not answer, please. I just wondered how you or anyone can

tell what your personality was " before " the catastrophic event?

A life changing event is a life changing event.Does it change us so much we

become someone else? My lack of understanding is in the idea of changing

the whole personality. Do we not act throughout the " catastrophic event " as

our personalities move us to? As who we are then? And if so, wouldn't your

present personality be " yours " as just a continuation of the personality

that has gone through whatever life dishes out? The personality that might

have been yours had no chance to surface because of the event, so the

present one is the only one, you can have?

I do not remember my parents or myself before WWII. I cannot therefore judge

how we all " changed " . I know suffering will change us, but do we not give

account of this change as part of the integrated personality? Suffering is

meant to change our view of life and of ourselves, in my opinion. Do we

change personality? Is this change forced on us, and we have no say in its

development, or its aftermath??What I mean is that the person involved does

not understand the change within himself as being other than " himself " . It

is still the same person, but some of what was hidden may have come to the

front, and what was active may recede.

We all reacted differently. Both my parents were very depressed, but had to

keep on with life.They did not " feel " changed...maybe because they weren't

conscious enough, I don't know. I don't know if my father always screamed

and verbally abused his whole family.. I know he could not control his

behavior in those benighted days before " seratonin level " were discovered,

or Prosac invented, or even valium.He was in the grip of something he did

not know how to control and didn't even know what it was.

I cannot really tell what part of my personality changed. I was too young. I

seem to have inherited an inability to handle noise, and confusion around

me. My father was worse. I seem also to have developed aggressiveness as a

reaction to not being accepted in my new country for a while. And , of

course depression, guilt of survival always played a part.

I rather assumed that was " me " . I did not know another me.

But good came out of much, as far as I am concerned. Whether it is age,

experience and/or suffering who knows.I learned to turn some of that

survival guilt around , learned to be eternal thankful, but understanding it

was not up to me to ask " why not me "

I think it is totally fruitless to compare one's suffering to that of

others. I used to be so upset because I knew, as a youth that I was much too

much of a coward to happily walk into the coliseum to be eaten by lions

because of my religion. It bothered me for years to be such a coward, when

so many others seem to have gone joyfully.

Strongly enough, the time came for me to have another kind of courage, just

as threatening to me, and I managed, by the Grace of G-d, just fine

We cannot change our circumstances, and to compare ourselves with anyone

else at anytime is, in my opinion fruitless and damaging. We have no idea

what goes on in the soul of another.Suffering we see in another cannot be

judged.It took me a lifetime to learn that.

The " abuse you suffered " can in no way compare to anything anyone else

suffered because you are not the same people. I feel our suffering, the

helpful type is just what we need at the right time for our further travel

along our own path. I guess I mean, an acceptance that what is IS.

We do not need to know the reasons, or to judge ourselves, although we all

do. Depression follows these self judgments. I personally feel so , and

being the worst person on earth or thinking so, just fuels negative

inflation big time.

I wasn't born with what small wisdom I have, it came from all those

experiences which make up my life. I had to learn to allow myself to ignore

that " cruel critic inside " . Alice can tell you, he lives with me, but he is

giving much less trouble in the last year.

I am so sorry the temporary drugs do not work. It helped me to get outside

of myself enough to listen. We don't do that well when we are depressed.(

too bad those who try to prod us out of our depressions don't understand

that...as in " why don't you snap out of it " ?)

I do know that neither wearing a hair shirt and beating myself

(figuratively) across my head and shoulder, nor constant confession (though

it has its place) have managed to make me a better human being.or a happier

one ..all they do is underline the very faults I am so aware of, and feed a

constantly lurcking hubris Depression makes us go around in circular

thinking, which seldom shows us a way out I remember it well.

I remember being told to pray as I could, not as I could not. I transfer

that idea over to many tasks, and I find a link to the real me. session. We

have to live as we can, not as we cannot . I wish I had a magic potion for

you and those close to me who suffer so much from depression.

You have probably been talked " at' for years or however long this has

lasted. Has anyone mentioned that perhaps accepting what is could help you

get a grasp on all the things you think you are but objectively are notmore

so than the rest of humanity? All of us feel like frauds, malingerers and

liars, and I would guess, most of us are to some extent as long as we have

shadows. But the shadow is only half of what we are. We are its opposite

too.

love to you, and all the healing energy I can send yourway.

Toni.

.. Re: Greg - Anima/Animus a P.P.S.

>

> Thanks, everybody, for your encouragement, I REALLY appreciate it.

>

> I have given the label " PTSD " to my condition ... because everybody

> knows what it is.

>

> But apparently my condition is more correctly described as " Enduring

> Personality Change After a Catastrophic Event " .... the sort of

> permanent personality change that occured to so many Jews who survived

the

> concentration camps. Toni will know all about that, because from what she

> has said, I think her parents had the same condition. But as soon as I

say

> that I feel a fraud, a malingerer, a liar, because I know the abuse

> I suffered could never, never, be put on a par with the suffering of

the

> Jews under the Nazis.

>

>

> I wish Prozac did work, I wish any antidepressant worked! And, if

> you'll forgive my lavatory humour, I wish Viagra worked. Both don't work

> for the same reason!

>

> Kindest Regards.

>

> Pete.

>

>

> At 02:36 PM 30/08/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>

> >--- Mandorla wrote:

> > > Greg.

> > > Firstly, a confession, I " normally " remain a

> > > " lurker " in this group.

> >

> >I know the lurker status very well. I took it myself

> >for many months before I finally found the courage to

> > " speak up " . In those we had a wonderful woman named

> >Maureen as our moderator. The love she radiated and

> >her kindness to my early tentative attempts put me at

> >ease and drew me in. And now I can't keep my mouth

> >shut. I hope you will feel comfortable, little by

> >little, in speaking up too . You have much to

> >offer us here around the fire. And I'm sure that there

> >are many others whose voices deserve to be heard. I

> >hope they will let us hear from them too.

> >

> > > I suffer from chronic depression (a product of

> > > PTSD) and this tends to stuff up my ability to

> > > articulate.

> >

> >Perhaps speaking out here will help you improve your

> >articulation....and help us too.

> >

> > > Sorry if I sound like a " nutter " !

> >

> >Absolutely not! I hope you will contribute often.

> >We all learn from each other. And believe me, one need

> >only review the archives to prove to oneself that we

> >can all be nutty here from time to time. I'm probably

> >more guilty than most.

> >

> > It may not

> > > seem to have much to

> > > do with with the price of eggs, however it points

> > > to the inability of

> > > the ego, in this case the post modernist ego, to

> > > apprehend the

> > > all-pervasive mystery and the numinousity in human

> > > life or discourse.

> > >

> > > I hope I have not muddied the waters too much!!!

> >

> >This brings to mind an excerpt from a wonderful book,

> >C.G.JUNG AND HERMAN HESSE, by Serrano, a man

> >who befriended both these giants at the end of their

> >lives. Serrano visited Jung at his home in Kusnact in

> >the last months of his life. The interactions between

> >them was so moving and touching, yet it demonstated

> >Jung's curiousity about life to the very end. Here is

> >a short piece that your statement reminded me of:

> >

> >(pg. 102)

> > " 'Space flights to other worlds are still a long way

> >off,' Jung answered. 'Sooner or late man will have to

> >return to earth, and to the land from which he comes;

> >that is to say, man will have to return to himself.

> >Space flights are merely an escape, a fleeing away

> >from oneself, because it is easier to go to Mars or to

> >the moon than it is to penetrate one's own being. But

> >what is dangerous about this fanatic interest in

> >spatial conquest is that it symbolizes a state of

> >complete anxiety in man. This anxiety would seem to be

> >caused by a fear of the world's population explosion.

> >In a way, space flights seem to be an instinctive

> >reaction to this problem.' "

> >

> >There is another section in which they are discussing

> >Jung's old friend in the Southwest USA, the Pueblo

> >Chief, Mountain Lake:

> >

> > " He gave his impressions of the white man, and said

> >that they were always upset, always looking for

> >something, and that as a consequence, their faces were

> >lined with wrinkles, which he took to be a sign of

> >eternal restlessness. Mountain Lake also thought that

> >the whites were crazy since they maintained that they

> >thought with their heads, whereas it was well-known

> >that only crazy people did that. This assertion by the

> >chief of the Pueblos so surprised me that I asked him

> >how he thought. He answered that he naturally throught

> >with his heart. And then Jung added, 'And that is how

> >the ancient Greeks also thought.' 'But do you believe

> >that white people thing with their heads?' 'No, They

> >think only with their tongues.' Jung then placed his

> >hand on his neck. 'They think only with words, with

> >words which today have replaced the Logos...' "

> >

> >I am pondering if and how much I think with MY heart.

> >

> >Greg

> >

> >__________________________________________________

> >