Re: low ferritin and high overload - it's possible

[Guest guest]

It appears the link did not go through--- here it is again.

http://www.ironoverload.org/index.html

[Guest guest]

beckyjov wrote:

>

>

> Ferritin should never be used as a gauge of when to supplement with

> iron. Ferritin is a measure of storage iron or a backup supply of

> iron. You assay anemia with either hemoglobin or hematocrit, they

> are initialized HGB and HCT on lab reports respectively. Anything

> less than 10-12 in hemoglobin is considered anemia. For hematocrit,

> a normal range is 42-44% for adult females and adult males is 45-

> 47%. This particular lab value may vary from day to day and

> vegetarians will experience a slightly lesser hematocrit as a trend.

> Where anemia is discovered the patient should supplement with a

> complex of B vitamins.

>

> Loss of energy is one of the first signs of iron overload. This due

> to iron storing in the thyroid. Anyone with thyroid malfunction

> should be screened immediately for iron overload. The proper

> screening tests are transferrin saturation (TS) and serum ferritin

> (SF). Anything above 44% in saturation is diagnostic for

> hemochromatosis.

>

Hi Bj, not sure what my conclusion should be here -- on STTM and other

places I have read that low ferritin affects the thyroid and that you

don't want it low. Here are my recent labs:

ferritin 12 10-232 ng/mL

hemoglobin 14.2 11.7-15.5 g/dL

My hemoglobin seems to generally be fine, and thru the years my ferritin

has always been at the bottom end of low.

so per the STTM recommends I'm on a good iron supplement...but this post

has me confused. Do I NOT need to supplement?

thanks,

--

Jamison Griebenow, skookie@...

Blessed with husband Greg, Zachary c/s 8/95,

Helena Joy HBAC 8/00, and Beren Gustav HB 4/04

~~~~~~~

Learn more about recovery from a difficult birth here:

http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/healing_trauma.asp

~~~~~~~

Help two adorable Kentucky kids! See fundraiser update~

See http://www.haileyandcartersdream.com/

[Guest guest]

Hi BJ,

I'm not sure what to think about the iron thing.

I have run across a few studies on PubMed that show that it's possible

to have iron deficiency that causes symptoms without it showing up as

low Hgb and Hct, so I tend to believe that, according to my personal

experience. Some docs will tell you that you can't be anemic unless

it shows as low Hgb and Hct, which is technically accurate, but you

CAN be iron deficient without anemia and have symptoms.

I have a ferritin of 23 and was unable to tolerate Armour.

I've been making a real effort to take the iron faithfully and I'm

feeling better after a week. Studies show iron is necessary for

proper thyroid function.

So right now I'm going by personal experience and taking a wait and

see attitude.

>

> Hi...

>

> Not sure who was asking about too much iron and ferritn levels? I

> hope this will help someone.

>

> My doc will not do a ferritin test alone. He insists on a CBC to see

> where the hemoglobin and hematocrit are at in addition to iron. He

> does a full iron panel w/ferritin. So, as a caution ferritin alone

> testing is probably not a good way to diagnose iron deficiency -

> You could do more harm than good.

>

> BTW, my sisters have high normal iron/ferritin and give blood every

> few months to keep it in check. However, I really do have low iron

> and ferritn. The point is both high and low can cause extreme

> problems.

>

> Here is a site I found a few years back when I started noticing the

> Thyroid boards were pushing testimg Ferritin for low iron in

> Hashi's. I e-mailed the doc and he sent me quite a bit of info on

> thyroid people having too much iron. Here is the email I kept.

>

> ...This is a letter I received back in 2004...

>

> {{{Becca,

> The thyroid is very reactive to excess iron. The test for thyroid,

> TSH, is not very sensitive. That is that this test will allow

> malfunction in the gland before the test reports a problem.

>

> Ferritin should never be used as a gauge of when to supplement with

> iron. Ferritin is a measure of storage iron or a backup supply of

> iron. You assay anemia with either hemoglobin or hematocrit, they

> are initialized HGB and HCT on lab reports respectively. Anything

> less than 10-12 in hemoglobin is considered anemia. For hematocrit,

> a normal range is 42-44% for adult females and adult males is 45-

> 47%. This particular lab value may vary from day to day and

> vegetarians will experience a slightly lesser hematocrit as a trend.

> Where anemia is discovered the patient should supplement with a

> complex of B vitamins.

>

> Loss of energy is one of the first signs of iron overload. This due

> to iron storing in the thyroid. Anyone with thyroid malfunction

> should be screened immediately for iron overload. The proper

> screening tests are transferrin saturation (TS) and serum ferritin

> (SF). Anything above 44% in saturation is diagnostic for

> hemochromatosis.

>

> The good news is that finding out that your thyroid problems are

> based on excess iron brings to you another treatment approach.

> Proper treatment can reverse all symptoms, including thyroid, and

> return the patient to a normal lifespan. Although we cannot promise

> everything to everybody, this has been the remarkable trend.

>

> Iron Overload or hemochromatosis is eventually fatal if not detected

> or not treated. For further study of the subject, see our web site

> for anemia and diagnosing hemochromatosis. www.ironoverload.org

>

> Steve Barfield Iron Overload Diseases Assn.

>

> Note: Transferrin Saturation is listed as % of Saturation on most lab

> sheets. To find the TS or percentage of Saturation you divide the

> TIBC into SI. Total Iron Binding Capacity (TIBC) and the Serum Iron

> (SI). Ferritin on lab sheets is the Serum ferritin.}}}

>

>

> --------------------------------

>

> More info..

> I think these links still work---

>

> Also Shomon has a good article on iron at:

> http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/hemachromatosis-iron.htm

>

> Dr Mercola has a informative article on his website as well at:

> http://www.mercola.com/2002/dec/18/iron_diagnosis.htm

>

> HTH,

> Bj

>

[Guest guest]

,

That's why I mentioned all the Internet advice about ferritin. Did your doctor do an iron panel? If the iron is on the low side along with iron saturation, but the iron binding cap is high - then there is a definite need for iron supplementation.

IMHO most people with super low ferritin most likely needs iron if there is no family history of high iron. You also should factor in your family history - whether or not there is iron-overload. Anyone with iron-overload can easily solve that problem by donating blood. It's much easier to bring it down than to get it up.

For me and my daughter, the hemoglobin and hematocrit seem to take a while to show up low, but the iron and iron saturation is as telling as the ferritin. It may be different for you though.

I think it's wise to do all tests to get the most accurate picture. But I'm sure people on other sites will aggressively try to convince you differently. That's why it is very important not to believe everything you read. I did run into two women who had low ferritin and iron-overload. One-size doesn't fit all. I learned the hard way to search until I could find verification or take with the advice with a grain of uniodized salt.

Good luck,

Bj

> > > > > > Ferritin should never be used as a gauge of when to supplement with> > iron. Ferritin is a measure of storage iron or a backup supply of> > iron. You assay anemia with either hemoglobin or hematocrit, they> > are initialized HGB and HCT on lab reports respectively. Anything> > less than 10-12 in hemoglobin is considered anemia. For hematocrit,> > a normal range is 42-44% for adult females and adult males is 45-> > 47%. This particular lab value may vary from day to day and> > vegetarians will experience a slightly lesser hematocrit as a trend.> > Where anemia is discovered the patient should supplement with a> > complex of B vitamins.> > > > Loss of energy is one of the first signs of iron overload. This due> > to iron storing in the thyroid. Anyone with thyroid malfunction> > should be screened immediately for iron overload. The proper> > screening tests are transferrin saturation (TS) and serum ferritin> > (SF). Anything above 44% in saturation is diagnostic for> > hemochromatosis.> > > > Hi Bj, not sure what my conclusion should be here -- on STTM and other > places I have read that low ferritin affects the thyroid and that you > don't want it low. Here are my recent labs:> > ferritin 12 10-232 ng/mL> hemoglobin 14.2 11.7-15.5 g/dL> > My hemoglobin seems to generally be fine, and thru the years my ferritin > has always been at the bottom end of low.> > so per the STTM recommends I'm on a good iron supplement...but this post > has me confused. Do I NOT need to supplement?> > thanks, > > -- > Jamison Griebenow, skookie@...> Blessed with husband Greg, Zachary c/s 8/95,> Helena Joy HBAC 8/00, and Beren Gustav HB 4/04> ~~~~~~~> Learn more about recovery from a difficult birth here:> http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/healing_trauma.asp> ~~~~~~~> Help two adorable Kentucky kids! See fundraiser update~> See http://www.haileyandcartersdream.com/>

[Guest guest]

just letting you know this was duly noted. :-)

cindi

>

>

>

> grain of uniodized salt.

>

[Guest guest]

,

I was specifically providing the info to who asked about high iron. I did not write the letter - it was written to me. It's important to test the iron as well - according to my bio-chemist doc. I've also seen those studies and questioned him. He said that he will not take a chance that one of his patients is the rare one that is the exception as it can be fatal to the unknowing. If he's testing he wants the whole not bits and pieces. He'd like to see a large group study on this as well.

Bj

> >> > Hi...> > > > Not sure who was asking about too much iron and ferritn levels? I > > hope this will help someone.> > > > My doc will not do a ferritin test alone. He insists on a CBC to see > > where the hemoglobin and hematocrit are at in addition to iron. He > > does a full iron panel w/ferritin. So, as a caution ferritin alone> > testing is probably not a good way to diagnose iron deficiency -> > You could do more harm than good.> > > > BTW, my sisters have high normal iron/ferritin and give blood every > > few months to keep it in check. However, I really do have low iron > > and ferritn. The point is both high and low can cause extreme > > problems.> > > > Here is a site I found a few years back when I started noticing the > > Thyroid boards were pushing testimg Ferritin for low iron in > > Hashi's. I e-mailed the doc and he sent me quite a bit of info on > > thyroid people having too much iron. Here is the email I kept.> > > > ...This is a letter I received back in 2004... > > > > {{{Becca,> > The thyroid is very reactive to excess iron. The test for thyroid,> > TSH, is not very sensitive. That is that this test will allow> > malfunction in the gland before the test reports a problem.> > > > Ferritin should never be used as a gauge of when to supplement with> > iron. Ferritin is a measure of storage iron or a backup supply of> > iron. You assay anemia with either hemoglobin or hematocrit, they> > are initialized HGB and HCT on lab reports respectively. Anything> > less than 10-12 in hemoglobin is considered anemia. For hematocrit,> > a normal range is 42-44% for adult females and adult males is 45-> > 47%. This particular lab value may vary from day to day and> > vegetarians will experience a slightly lesser hematocrit as a trend.> > Where anemia is discovered the patient should supplement with a> > complex of B vitamins.> > > > Loss of energy is one of the first signs of iron overload. This due> > to iron storing in the thyroid. Anyone with thyroid malfunction> > should be screened immediately for iron overload. The proper> > screening tests are transferrin saturation (TS) and serum ferritin> > (SF). Anything above 44% in saturation is diagnostic for> > hemochromatosis.> > > > The good news is that finding out that your thyroid problems are> > based on excess iron brings to you another treatment approach.> > Proper treatment can reverse all symptoms, including thyroid, and> > return the patient to a normal lifespan. Although we cannot promise> > everything to everybody, this has been the remarkable trend.> > > > Iron Overload or hemochromatosis is eventually fatal if not detected> > or not treated. For further study of the subject, see our web site> > for anemia and diagnosing hemochromatosis. www.ironoverload.org> > > > Steve Barfield Iron Overload Diseases Assn.> > > > Note: Transferrin Saturation is listed as % of Saturation on most lab> > sheets. To find the TS or percentage of Saturation you divide the> > TIBC into SI. Total Iron Binding Capacity (TIBC) and the Serum Iron> > (SI). Ferritin on lab sheets is the Serum ferritin.}}}> > > > > > --------------------------------> > > > More info..> > I think these links still work---> > > > Also Shomon has a good article on iron at:> > http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/hemachromatosis-iron.htm> > > > Dr Mercola has a informative article on his website as well at:> > http://www.mercola.com/2002/dec/18/iron_diagnosis.htm> > > > HTH,> > Bj> >>

[Guest guest]

Cindi,

Thanks, you may very well be one of the few that understands... Bj

> >

> >

> >

> > grain of uniodized salt.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry, BJ. Did not mean to interfere with the discussion.

>

>

> ,

>

> I was specifically providing the info to who asked about high iron. I

> did not write the letter - it was written to me. It's important to test

> the iron as well - according to my bio-chemist doc. I've also seen

> those studies and questioned him. He said that he will not take a

> chance that one of his patients is the rare one that is the exception as

> it can be fatal to the unknowing. If he's testing he wants the whole

> not bits and pieces. He'd like to see a large group study on this as

> well.

>

> Bj

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry, . I hope I didn't hurt your feelings. I know this could

be valuable info for someone who has high iron and for us that have

low can be aware.

BTW, did you also get a full iron panel w/ the ferritin? It could

possibly be of some help.

Bj

> >

> >

> > ,

> >

> > I was specifically providing the info to who asked about high

iron. I

> > did not write the letter - it was written to me. It's important

to test

> > the iron as well - according to my bio-chemist doc. I've also

seen

> > those studies and questioned him. He said that he will not take a

> > chance that one of his patients is the rare one that is the

exception as

> > it can be fatal to the unknowing. If he's testing he wants the

whole

> > not bits and pieces. He'd like to see a large group study on

this as

> > well.

> >

> > Bj

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I'm much like . I'm feeling much better now that I've been

taking iron supplements for the past 9 months. My first blood tests

(for anemia) last spring showed very low levels of Iron Sat (was 3%

and should be between 10-258)).

Serum iron levels were at 20 (35-155), and the doc (internist) said

that number had to be over 50 before he'd be happy.

A few months ago, after being on iron supplements 7 months, my new

test showed:

Iron, Serum 141 35-155 ug/dL

Iron Bind Cap (TIBC) 372 250-450 ug/dL

UIBC 231 150-375 ug/dL

Iron Saturation 38 15-55 %

Ferritin, Serum 7 (10-258)

The endo then suggested I stay on standard supplements (daily vitamin

w/iron) rather than the prescription iron I was on before. He wasn't

too worried about my Ferritin levels, but you can see it's quite low

in contrast to all the others. So I'm sure there's some sort of

problem still...

I was also not able to tolerate Armour, and had heart palps and face

flushing within an hour after taking it, even when I started

splitting the doses and later, when I cut the dose in half. The ill

effects from the extra T3 hitting my system too fast was still a big

problem for me. But I'm now more worried about possible antigens, so

I'm going to stay on Levothyroxine for now.

Val

> > >

> > >

> > > Ferritin should never be used as a gauge of when to supplement

with

> > > iron. Ferritin is a measure of storage iron or a backup supply

of

> > > iron. You assay anemia with either hemoglobin or hematocrit,

they

> > > are initialized HGB and HCT on lab reports respectively.

Anything

> > > less than 10-12 in hemoglobin is considered anemia. For

hematocrit,

> > > a normal range is 42-44% for adult females and adult males is

45-

> > > 47%. This particular lab value may vary from day to day and

> > > vegetarians will experience a slightly lesser hematocrit as a

trend.

> > > Where anemia is discovered the patient should supplement with a

> > > complex of B vitamins.

> > >

> > > Loss of energy is one of the first signs of iron overload. This

due

> > > to iron storing in the thyroid. Anyone with thyroid malfunction

> > > should be screened immediately for iron overload. The proper

> > > screening tests are transferrin saturation (TS) and serum

ferritin

> > > (SF). Anything above 44% in saturation is diagnostic for

> > > hemochromatosis.

> > >

> >

> > Hi Bj, not sure what my conclusion should be here -- on STTM and

other

> > places I have read that low ferritin affects the thyroid and that

you

> > don't want it low. Here are my recent labs:

> >

> > ferritin 12 10-232 ng/mL

> > hemoglobin 14.2 11.7-15.5 g/dL

> >

> > My hemoglobin seems to generally be fine, and thru the years my

> ferritin

> > has always been at the bottom end of low.

> >

> > so per the STTM recommends I'm on a good iron supplement...but

this

> post

> > has me confused. Do I NOT need to supplement?

> >

> > thanks,

> >

> > --

> > Jamison Griebenow, skookie@

> > Blessed with husband Greg, Zachary c/s 8/95,

> > Helena Joy HBAC 8/00, and Beren Gustav HB 4/04

> > ~~~~~~~

> > Learn more about recovery from a difficult birth here:

> > http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/healing_trauma.asp

> > ~~~~~~~

> > Help two adorable Kentucky kids! See fundraiser update~

> > See http://www.haileyandcartersdream.com/

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Griebenow wrote:

>

> Hi Bj, not sure what my conclusion should be here -- on STTM and other

> places I have read that low ferritin affects the thyroid and that you

> don't want it low. Here are my recent labs:

>

> ferritin 12 10-232 ng/mL

> hemoglobin 14.2 11.7-15.5 g/dL

>

> My hemoglobin seems to generally be fine, and thru the years my ferritin

> has always been at the bottom end of low.

>

> so per the STTM recommends I'm on a good iron supplement...but this post

> has me confused. Do I NOT need to supplement?

In fact the website seems to imply that too much iron is a problem, and

not too little -- but the common wisdom you hear all the time is about

anemia etc. Also seems to say that a basic ferritin test is useless,

that you need serum ferritin, whatever that is, and several other tests

which as usual aren't in the regular profiles...

do you have any other thoughts? There are so many other things to check

out -- I don't want to bother with this unless it really is essential,

you know?

I will also check out links you just sent

thanks!

--

Jamison Griebenow, skookie@...

Blessed with husband Greg, Zachary c/s 8/95,

Helena Joy HBAC 8/00, and Beren Gustav HB 4/04

~~~~~~~

Learn more about recovery from a difficult birth here:

http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/healing_trauma.asp

~~~~~~~

Help two adorable Kentucky kids! See fundraiser update~

See http://www.haileyandcartersdream.com/

[Guest guest]

Hi Val,

Your reaction to Armour sounds much like mine.

Strange ferritin level. Wonder why it isn't increasing, yet you say

you are feeling better after taking the iron.

I've read that it can take over a year to get iron stores up to where

they should be and even longer for some. Maybe when we've been iron

deficient for so long it takes a longer time to replenish the stores.

How are you doing these days?

>

> I'm much like . I'm feeling much better now that I've been

> taking iron supplements for the past 9 months. My first blood tests

> (for anemia) last spring showed very low levels of Iron Sat (was 3%

> and should be between 10-258)).

>

> Serum iron levels were at 20 (35-155), and the doc (internist) said

> that number had to be over 50 before he'd be happy.

>

> A few months ago, after being on iron supplements 7 months, my new

> test showed:

>

> Iron, Serum 141 35-155 ug/dL

> Iron Bind Cap (TIBC) 372 250-450 ug/dL

> UIBC 231 150-375 ug/dL

> Iron Saturation 38 15-55 %

> Ferritin, Serum 7 (10-258)

>

> The endo then suggested I stay on standard supplements (daily vitamin

> w/iron) rather than the prescription iron I was on before. He wasn't

> too worried about my Ferritin levels, but you can see it's quite low

> in contrast to all the others. So I'm sure there's some sort of

> problem still...

>

> I was also not able to tolerate Armour, and had heart palps and face

> flushing within an hour after taking it, even when I started

> splitting the doses and later, when I cut the dose in half. The ill

> effects from the extra T3 hitting my system too fast was still a big

> problem for me. But I'm now more worried about possible antigens, so

> I'm going to stay on Levothyroxine for now.

>

> Val

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

beckyjov wrote:

> (quote) You assay anemia with either hemoglobin or hematocrit, they

> are initialized HGB and HCT on lab reports respectively. Anything

> less than 10-12 in hemoglobin is considered anemia. For hematocrit,

> a normal range is 42-44% for adult females

> Where anemia is discovered the patient should supplement with a

> complex of B vitamins.

>

I'm glad you posted that. It helps. By those numbers I'm still plenty

high in iron. Though not over range. My last blood test just did " iron " .

Had that blood test offered a Hemogram panel, I'd have gotten it. I do

most of my blood testing at " health fairs " to save money, so I don't

always have a choice about what is tested and what isn't.

It is interesting that though low ferritin does seem to be a very

common factor in not being able to tolerate thyroid meds, some doctors

would say the target range of 70-90 for women is too high. In " Protein

Power LifePlan " the Drs. Eades want their patients at 50 or below (sex

of patient not specified IIRC). So far I haven't been able to find

reasons for the discrepancy. The only thing I found was that in cases of

hemochromatosis, the target ferritin levels are also low. Can't remember

where I read that, sorry. Unfortunately in my lab test results I don't

see that transferrin saturation has ever been done. Nor has TIBC, and

most of my labs have not done SI either. Ontly the last bloods taken in

Feb. and that one has no other iron test at all so pretty useless I guess.

I'm thinking seriously of going to see my PA and requesting all these

tests, along with an annual check up. Just to get the tests done.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned here re high iron is the heart

effects. Isn't high iron very closely associated with heart attacks?

sol

> Loss of energy is one of the first signs of iron overload. This due

> to iron storing in the thyroid. Anyone with thyroid malfunction

> should be screened immediately for iron overload. The proper

> screening tests are transferrin saturation (TS) and serum ferritin

> (SF). Anything above 44% in saturation is diagnostic for

> hemochromatosis.

>

> The good news is that finding out that your thyroid problems are

> based on excess iron brings to you another treatment approach.

> Proper treatment can reverse all symptoms, including thyroid, and

> return the patient to a normal lifespan. Although we cannot promise

> everything to everybody, this has been the remarkable trend.

>

> Iron Overload or hemochromatosis is eventually fatal if not detected

> or not treated. For further study of the subject, see our web site

> for anemia and diagnosing hemochromatosis. www.ironoverload.org

>

> Steve Barfield Iron Overload Diseases Assn.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Overdosing on iron supplements is very deadly. But anemia is also

deadly.

When I was 4, I was anemic and the doc put me on iron supplements. My

mother continued givin these to me, and didn't know that I was

supposed to be going back for regular lab work.

I started to develop stomach pains about 8 months later, and my mom

finally took me to the doctor who dx'd me with stomach ulcers. When

she explained to him that I seemed to get the pains after taking my

iron meds, he was furious that she was still giving them to me. (He

claimed it was supposed to only be a temporary treatment).

That was 40 years ago, and mom doesn't remember exactly what my labs

looked like, but clearly remembers the doctor saying, " You could have

killed her " . (The doc seems to be the one that messed up, IMO!)

Here are some interesting things about low iron:

http://www.irondisorders.org/Disorders/TooLittleIron.asp

Too little iron is called iron deficiency, which can become iron

deficiency anemia.

Symptoms Can Include:

shortness of breath

irregular heart beat

sensitivity to cold weakness

pale skin and membranes (inside of mouth, eyelids)

Causes of too little iron can include increased demands for iron

during growth spurts, pregnancy or blood loss, diets that do not

include enough iron, B12, B6, folate, vitamin A and zinc. Iron

deficiency anemia can also be caused by blood loss from heavy

periods, certain medications--especially ones that contain aspirin,

and treatments for chronic (ongoing) diseases. Other causes can be

due to poor absorption because of diet or disease or lack of stomach

acid due to overuse of antacids. In anemia of chronic disease, a

person can appear to be iron deficient when in fact, the body is

withholding iron from harmful disease. Too little iron can also occur

in patients with too much iron.

> >

> > Hi Bj, not sure what my conclusion should be here -- on STTM and

other

> > places I have read that low ferritin affects the thyroid and that

you

> > don't want it low. Here are my recent labs:

> >

> > ferritin 12 10-232 ng/mL

> > hemoglobin 14.2 11.7-15.5 g/dL

> >

> > My hemoglobin seems to generally be fine, and thru the years my

ferritin

> > has always been at the bottom end of low.

> >

> > so per the STTM recommends I'm on a good iron supplement...but

this post

> > has me confused. Do I NOT need to supplement?

>

> In fact the website seems to imply that too much iron is a problem,

and

> not too little -- but the common wisdom you hear all the time is

about

> anemia etc. Also seems to say that a basic ferritin test is

useless,

> that you need serum ferritin, whatever that is, and several other

tests

> which as usual aren't in the regular profiles...

>

> do you have any other thoughts? There are so many other things to

check

> out -- I don't want to bother with this unless it really is

essential,

> you know?

>

> I will also check out links you just sent

>

> thanks!

>

>

>

> --

> Jamison Griebenow, skookie@...

> Blessed with husband Greg, Zachary c/s 8/95,

> Helena Joy HBAC 8/00, and Beren Gustav HB 4/04

> ~~~~~~~

> Learn more about recovery from a difficult birth here:

> http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/healing_trauma.asp

> ~~~~~~~

> Help two adorable Kentucky kids! See fundraiser update~

> See http://www.haileyandcartersdream.com/

>

[Guest guest]

Val,

Congratulations on raising your iron!

It appears that your doctor didn't just use the ferritin test, he

used the ones my doc uses.

To make a good informed decision one needs all the pieces to make the

best decision possible for ourselves as individuals. Without the all

the tests your doctor may have come to a different conclusion. The

point I tried to make is that ferritin alone testing may not be wise.

Please let me know how the vitamin works. Is there a certain brand

your doc suggested?

Bj

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Ferritin should never be used as a gauge of when to

supplement

> with

> > > > iron. Ferritin is a measure of storage iron or a backup

supply

> of

> > > > iron. You assay anemia with either hemoglobin or hematocrit,

> they

> > > > are initialized HGB and HCT on lab reports respectively.

> Anything

> > > > less than 10-12 in hemoglobin is considered anemia. For

> hematocrit,

> > > > a normal range is 42-44% for adult females and adult males is

> 45-

> > > > 47%. This particular lab value may vary from day to day and

> > > > vegetarians will experience a slightly lesser hematocrit as a

> trend.

> > > > Where anemia is discovered the patient should supplement with

a

> > > > complex of B vitamins.

> > > >

> > > > Loss of energy is one of the first signs of iron overload.

This

> due

> > > > to iron storing in the thyroid. Anyone with thyroid

malfunction

> > > > should be screened immediately for iron overload. The proper

> > > > screening tests are transferrin saturation (TS) and serum

> ferritin

> > > > (SF). Anything above 44% in saturation is diagnostic for

> > > > hemochromatosis.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Hi Bj, not sure what my conclusion should be here -- on STTM

and

> other

> > > places I have read that low ferritin affects the thyroid and

that

> you

> > > don't want it low. Here are my recent labs:

> > >

> > > ferritin 12 10-232 ng/mL

> > > hemoglobin 14.2 11.7-15.5 g/dL

> > >

> > > My hemoglobin seems to generally be fine, and thru the years my

> > ferritin

> > > has always been at the bottom end of low.

> > >

> > > so per the STTM recommends I'm on a good iron supplement...but

> this

> > post

> > > has me confused. Do I NOT need to supplement?

> > >

> > > thanks,

> > >

> > > --

> > > Jamison Griebenow, skookie@

> > > Blessed with husband Greg, Zachary c/s 8/95,

> > > Helena Joy HBAC 8/00, and Beren Gustav HB 4/04

> > > ~~~~~~~

> > > Learn more about recovery from a difficult birth here:

> > > http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/healing_trauma.asp

> > > ~~~~~~~

> > > Help two adorable Kentucky kids! See fundraiser update~

> > > See http://www.haileyandcartersdream.com/

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thanks for asking! And how are you doing as well?

Back in March, I was still a little hyPO (T3 right at the bottom of

normal, T4 only a little higher) so I begged for more Levothyroxine

(in addition to the 50mcg). Since I'm also on ATD, my new endo said

he'd prefer I drop my ATD dose (but I'm still positive for TRab, so I

need to continue ATD therapy til those are gone).

I was able to eventually convince him to leave me on the ATD for now

(just a mere 2.5mg MMI anyway) and he agreed to increasing my

Levothyroxine from 50mcg per day, to 57mcg per day (I do this by

taking an extra 1/2 pill on Weds and Sundays).

Just that little bit did help improve my " brain fog " and memory

issues (my #1 complaint). I still don't have my stamina up to par

yet, but slowly getting there.

Getting my iron/sat in a better place has helped me get rid of

that " breathless " feeling - the feeling that someone was stepping on

my chest. I did some very mild jogging last Saturday and was very

impressed with how my body responded.

So things are def looking up! And it only took 1.5 years of med

juggling to get there. Now only if I can get those antibodies to go

away....

Take care!

Val

> >

> > I'm much like . I'm feeling much better now that I've been

> > taking iron supplements for the past 9 months. My first blood

tests

> > (for anemia) last spring showed very low levels of Iron Sat (was

3%

> > and should be between 10-258)).

> >

> > Serum iron levels were at 20 (35-155), and the doc (internist)

said

> > that number had to be over 50 before he'd be happy.

> >

> > A few months ago, after being on iron supplements 7 months, my

new

> > test showed:

> >

> > Iron, Serum 141 35-155 ug/dL

> > Iron Bind Cap (TIBC) 372 250-450 ug/dL

> > UIBC 231 150-375 ug/dL

> > Iron Saturation 38 15-55 %

> > Ferritin, Serum 7 (10-258)

> >

> > The endo then suggested I stay on standard supplements (daily

vitamin

> > w/iron) rather than the prescription iron I was on before. He

wasn't

> > too worried about my Ferritin levels, but you can see it's quite

low

> > in contrast to all the others. So I'm sure there's some sort of

> > problem still...

> >

> > I was also not able to tolerate Armour, and had heart palps and

face

> > flushing within an hour after taking it, even when I started

> > splitting the doses and later, when I cut the dose in half. The

ill

> > effects from the extra T3 hitting my system too fast was still a

big

> > problem for me. But I'm now more worried about possible antigens,

so

> > I'm going to stay on Levothyroxine for now.

> >

> > Val

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

With the info you provided I would be guessing. On my lab slip there

is an iron panel listed. Even back in 2003 when I first started

reading about ferritin, the doc back then refused to test ferritin

alone - he did a iron panel w/ferritin.

Keep in mind both low and high iron is a serious matter. I do know

that both low and high symptoms are heart related. Darned if you

darned if you don't. HypO-Low/HypEr-high Thyroid has overlapping

symptoms, too. Personally, I'd ask for the iron panel.

Sorry! Other than the iron panel, I don't think you'll really know.

You might want to check the symptoms of both low/high iron and see

which closely match.

Good luck,

Bj

> >

> > Hi Bj, not sure what my conclusion should be here -- on STTM and

other

> > places I have read that low ferritin affects the thyroid and that

you

> > don't want it low. Here are my recent labs:

> >

> > ferritin 12 10-232 ng/mL

> > hemoglobin 14.2 11.7-15.5 g/dL

> >

> > My hemoglobin seems to generally be fine, and thru the years my

ferritin

> > has always been at the bottom end of low.

> >

> > so per the STTM recommends I'm on a good iron supplement...but

this post

> > has me confused. Do I NOT need to supplement?

>

> In fact the website seems to imply that too much iron is a problem,

and

> not too little -- but the common wisdom you hear all the time is

about

> anemia etc. Also seems to say that a basic ferritin test is

useless,

> that you need serum ferritin, whatever that is, and several other

tests

> which as usual aren't in the regular profiles...

>

> do you have any other thoughts? There are so many other things to

check

> out -- I don't want to bother with this unless it really is

essential,

> you know?

>

> I will also check out links you just sent

>

> thanks!

>

>

>

> --

> Jamison Griebenow, skookie@...

> Blessed with husband Greg, Zachary c/s 8/95,

> Helena Joy HBAC 8/00, and Beren Gustav HB 4/04

> ~~~~~~~

> Learn more about recovery from a difficult birth here:

> http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/healing_trauma.asp

> ~~~~~~~

> Help two adorable Kentucky kids! See fundraiser update~

> See http://www.haileyandcartersdream.com/

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Sol,

Sorry to hear you have the awful weather now. Craziness indeed!

I know there are other high iron websites, this one says that doc's

are unknowingly pushing iron based on ferritin tests and therefore

patients are dying. It maybe a bit bold, but the Board of Directors

are all research scientists and if you look deep you'll see that they

believe the public has been misinformed on iron deficiency and show

data. Some diseases are symptoms that ther'es an overload of iron in

the body, even brain, thyroid disorders included. I checked all my

levels and continue to do so every year.

Bj

> > (quote) You assay anemia with either hemoglobin or hematocrit,

they

> > are initialized HGB and HCT on lab reports respectively. Anything

> > less than 10-12 in hemoglobin is considered anemia. For

hematocrit,

> > a normal range is 42-44% for adult females

> > Where anemia is discovered the patient should supplement with a

> > complex of B vitamins.

> >

> I'm glad you posted that. It helps. By those numbers I'm still

plenty

> high in iron. Though not over range. My last blood test just

did " iron " .

> Had that blood test offered a Hemogram panel, I'd have gotten it. I

do

> most of my blood testing at " health fairs " to save money, so I

don't

> always have a choice about what is tested and what isn't.

> It is interesting that though low ferritin does seem to be a very

> common factor in not being able to tolerate thyroid meds, some

doctors

> would say the target range of 70-90 for women is too high.

In " Protein

> Power LifePlan " the Drs. Eades want their patients at 50 or below

(sex

> of patient not specified IIRC). So far I haven't been able to find

> reasons for the discrepancy. The only thing I found was that in

cases of

> hemochromatosis, the target ferritin levels are also low. Can't

remember

> where I read that, sorry. Unfortunately in my lab test results I

don't

> see that transferrin saturation has ever been done. Nor has TIBC,

and

> most of my labs have not done SI either. Ontly the last bloods

taken in

> Feb. and that one has no other iron test at all so pretty useless I

guess.

> I'm thinking seriously of going to see my PA and requesting all

these

> tests, along with an annual check up. Just to get the tests done.

> One thing I haven't seen mentioned here re high iron is the heart

> effects. Isn't high iron very closely associated with heart attacks?

> sol

> > Loss of energy is one of the first signs of iron overload. This

due

> > to iron storing in the thyroid. Anyone with thyroid malfunction

> > should be screened immediately for iron overload. The proper

> > screening tests are transferrin saturation (TS) and serum ferritin

> > (SF). Anything above 44% in saturation is diagnostic for

> > hemochromatosis.

> >

> > The good news is that finding out that your thyroid problems are

> > based on excess iron brings to you another treatment approach.

> > Proper treatment can reverse all symptoms, including thyroid, and

> > return the patient to a normal lifespan. Although we cannot

promise

> > everything to everybody, this has been the remarkable trend.

> >

> > Iron Overload or hemochromatosis is eventually fatal if not

detected

> > or not treated. For further study of the subject, see our web site

> > for anemia and diagnosing hemochromatosis. www.ironoverload.org

> >

> > Steve Barfield Iron Overload Diseases Assn.

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Val,

You're absolutely correct. All doctors should check out ulcers,

tumors, cancer etc. when patients appear to be anemic.

maybe this is of usefulness to you.

Symptoms of iron overload include:

• chronic fatigue

• joint pain

• abdominal pain

• irregular heart rhythm

• loss of period

• loss of interest in sex

• hair loss

• skin color changes

Iron deficiency symptoms include:

• shortness of breath

• irregular heart beat

• sensitivity to cold weakness

• pale skin and membranes (inside of mouth, eyelids)

Complicated symptoms:

• Chronic Fatigue and Weakness

• Irregular Heart Beat

• Pain

• Headaches

• Changes in the Skin

http://www.irondisorders.org/

There is a list of tests, too.

HTH,

Bj

> > >

> > > Hi Bj, not sure what my conclusion should be here -- on STTM

and

> other

> > > places I have read that low ferritin affects the thyroid and

that

> you

> > > don't want it low. Here are my recent labs:

> > >

> > > ferritin 12 10-232 ng/mL

> > > hemoglobin 14.2 11.7-15.5 g/dL

> > >

> > > My hemoglobin seems to generally be fine, and thru the years my

> ferritin

> > > has always been at the bottom end of low.

> > >

> > > so per the STTM recommends I'm on a good iron supplement...but

> this post

> > > has me confused. Do I NOT need to supplement?

> >

> > In fact the website seems to imply that too much iron is a

problem,

> and

> > not too little -- but the common wisdom you hear all the time is

> about

> > anemia etc. Also seems to say that a basic ferritin test is

> useless,

> > that you need serum ferritin, whatever that is, and several other

> tests

> > which as usual aren't in the regular profiles...

> >

> > do you have any other thoughts? There are so many other things

to

> check

> > out -- I don't want to bother with this unless it really is

> essential,

> > you know?

> >

> > I will also check out links you just sent

> >

> > thanks!

> >

> >

> >

> > --

> > Jamison Griebenow, skookie@

> > Blessed with husband Greg, Zachary c/s 8/95,

> > Helena Joy HBAC 8/00, and Beren Gustav HB 4/04

> > ~~~~~~~

> > Learn more about recovery from a difficult birth here:

> > http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/healing_trauma.asp

> > ~~~~~~~

> > Help two adorable Kentucky kids! See fundraiser update~

> > See http://www.haileyandcartersdream.com/

> >

>

[Guest guest]

beckyjov wrote:

> I think it's wise to do all tests to get the most accurate picture. But

> I'm sure people on other sites will aggressively try to convince you

> differently. That's why it is very important not to believe everything

> you read. I did run into two women who had low ferritin and

> iron-overload. One-size doesn't fit all. I learned the hard way to

> search until I could find verification or take with the advice with a

> grain of uniodized salt.

I appreciate your reply and see exactly what you are saying. It's just

that, honestly, nobody anywhere, and no doctor has EVER said this to me.

I had no idea there *was* a full iron panel. :-) Who'd know if they

don't tell ya? Crazy. I will tell doc I need this done. I wonder how

many more things I can add and if I can add this over the phone without

needing to go for another stinkin' appointment just to " discuss " ...that

is the annoying part. If I want something different the receptionist

says, no you can't just walk in and get that, you have to make an

appointment just to get his approval on it, then draw blood, then have

another appointment a week later to discuss the labs.... with three

kids to take along it gets to be a drag, esp as a couple of them have

had needs that require lots of doc/therapy appointments this past year

and I think we are all sick of that, and just want to have a normal

life. Whatever that is. :-)

This is obviously a vent that has nothing to do with content of message.

Sorry about that.

Again thanks for your help!!

--

Jamison Griebenow, skookie@...

Blessed with husband Greg, Zachary c/s 8/95,

Helena Joy HBAC 8/00, and Beren Gustav HB 4/04

~~~~~~~

Learn more about recovery from a difficult birth here:

http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/healing_trauma.asp

~~~~~~~

Help two adorable Kentucky kids! See fundraiser update~

See http://www.haileyandcartersdream.com/

[Guest guest]

beckyjov wrote:

> Val,

>

> You're absolutely correct. All doctors should check out ulcers,

> tumors, cancer etc. when patients appear to be anemic.

>

> maybe this is of usefulness to you.

>

> Symptoms of iron overload include:

> • chronic fatigue

> • joint pain

etc.

Yes, thanks for this list and no I don't see myself on either one. The

only thing is fatigue and that could be caused by so many thigns.. but

there really is nothing else on any list...

thanks!

--

Jamison Griebenow, skookie@...

Blessed with husband Greg, Zachary c/s 8/95,

Helena Joy HBAC 8/00, and Beren Gustav HB 4/04

~~~~~~~

Learn more about recovery from a difficult birth here:

http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/healing_trauma.asp

~~~~~~~

Help two adorable Kentucky kids! See fundraiser update~

See http://www.haileyandcartersdream.com/

[Guest guest]

...

I understand your frustration. Maybe a little diplomacy would work. I would ask to talk to the doctor's nurse and tell her you see that the Ferritin and CBC were done or whatever was ran, but you didn't get a result on the iron. Would she please send it to you. If she says it wasn't done, ask her "then how do we see the entire picture of iron function without the iron panel"?

If she says the doctor must have forgotten to mark and will order those, politely ask which ones. If she says a complete iron workup or panel - I'd say thank you and hang and go to the lab and give them the blood.

If she says something else or leaves one out ask her about it (or them). Isn't the ____ important for ____ . "or" Don't you need ____ to check ____ ?

So this may take a little homework preparation on your part.

Sometimes you have to get very creative and treat the doc like your husband and do a little or in some cases a lot of manipulation. Just don't do anything that will backfire or if you do have a plan B.

http://www.labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/serum_iron/test.html

Good luck,Bj

> > I think it's wise to do all tests to get the most accurate picture. But > > I'm sure people on other sites will aggressively try to convince you > > differently. That's why it is very important not to believe everything > > you read. I did run into two women who had low ferritin and > > iron-overload. One-size doesn't fit all. I learned the hard way to > > search until I could find verification or take with the advice with a > > grain of uniodized salt.> > I appreciate your reply and see exactly what you are saying. It's just > that, honestly, nobody anywhere, and no doctor has EVER said this to me. > I had no idea there *was* a full iron panel. :-) Who'd know if they > don't tell ya? Crazy. I will tell doc I need this done. I wonder how > many more things I can add and if I can add this over the phone without > needing to go for another stinkin' appointment just to "discuss"...that > is the annoying part. If I want something different the receptionist > says, no you can't just walk in and get that, you have to make an > appointment just to get his approval on it, then draw blood, then have > another appointment a week later to discuss the labs.... with three > kids to take along it gets to be a drag, esp as a couple of them have > had needs that require lots of doc/therapy appointments this past year > and I think we are all sick of that, and just want to have a normal > life. Whatever that is. :-)> > This is obviously a vent that has nothing to do with content of message. > Sorry about that.> > Again thanks for your help!!> > -- > Jamison Griebenow, skookie@...> Blessed with husband Greg, Zachary c/s 8/95,> Helena Joy HBAC 8/00, and Beren Gustav HB 4/04> ~~~~~~~> Learn more about recovery from a difficult birth here:> http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/healing_trauma.asp> ~~~~~~~> Help two adorable Kentucky kids! See fundraiser update~> See http://www.haileyandcartersdream.com/>

[Guest guest]

PS... The most important lesson I've learned is to make them think it

is their idea?

Bj

> > > I think it's wise to do all tests to get the most accurate

picture.

> But

> > > I'm sure people on other sites will aggressively try to

convince you

> > > differently. That's why it is very important not to believe

> everything

> > > you read. I did run into two women who had low ferritin and

> > > iron-overload. One-size doesn't fit all. I learned the hard way

to

> > > search until I could find verification or take with the advice

with

> a

> > > grain of uniodized salt.

> >

> > I appreciate your reply and see exactly what you are saying. It's

just

> > that, honestly, nobody anywhere, and no doctor has EVER said this

to

> me.

> > I had no idea there *was* a full iron panel. :-) Who'd know if

they

> > don't tell ya? Crazy. I will tell doc I need this done. I wonder

how

> > many more things I can add and if I can add this over the phone

> without

> > needing to go for another stinkin' appointment just to

> " discuss " ...that

> > is the annoying part. If I want something different the

receptionist

> > says, no you can't just walk in and get that, you have to make an

> > appointment just to get his approval on it, then draw blood, then

have

> > another appointment a week later to discuss the labs.... with

three

> > kids to take along it gets to be a drag, esp as a couple of them

have

> > had needs that require lots of doc/therapy appointments this past

year

> > and I think we are all sick of that, and just want to have a

normal

> > life. Whatever that is. :-)

> >

> > This is obviously a vent that has nothing to do with content of

> message.

> > Sorry about that.

> >

> > Again thanks for your help!!

> >

> > --

> > Jamison Griebenow, skookie@

> > Blessed with husband Greg, Zachary c/s 8/95,

> > Helena Joy HBAC 8/00, and Beren Gustav HB 4/04

> > ~~~~~~~

> > Learn more about recovery from a difficult birth here:

> > http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/healing_trauma.asp

> > ~~~~~~~

> > Help two adorable Kentucky kids! See fundraiser update~

> > See http://www.haileyandcartersdream.com/

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Wow, this has been quite an active thread!

Any idea what a slightly high hemocrit might mean? I was told my blood

was thick and I should drink more water or give blood. But I drink

tons of water (though I don't give blood... I mean to).

You're all convincing me I should have this complete panel done at

some point. Thanks.

> I have run across a few studies on PubMed that show that it's possible

> to have iron deficiency that causes symptoms without it showing up as

> low Hgb and Hct, so I tend to believe that, according to my personal

> experience. Some docs will tell you that you can't be anemic unless

> it shows as low Hgb and Hct, which is technically accurate, but you

> CAN be iron deficient without anemia and have symptoms.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Bj,

My doc didn't recommend a vitamin, so I'm taking Meier brand multi-

vitamins. They don't have iodine and just 15mg iron. Before this I

was on SlowFE and Niferex (prescription) of 60mg.

The one big thing I notice is my horrible anemia headaches are gone

now (they usually came on strong a few days after my menstrual cycle

and I suppose that was due to heavy blood loss - I never put those 2

together before).

Before treatment, I had been taking a lot of aspirin-type meds to

help with the headaches, and now I read that will cause the anemia to

get even worse! So it was a vicious circle.

Hopefully my endo will be testing my iron levels again when I see him

in 3 weeks. I'll let you know if these generic multi's do the trick.

Take care!

Val

-- In Thyroiditis , " beckyjov " wrote:

>

> Val,

>

> Congratulations on raising your iron!

>

> It appears that your doctor didn't just use the ferritin test, he

> used the ones my doc uses.

>

> To make a good informed decision one needs all the pieces to make

the

> best decision possible for ourselves as individuals. Without the

all

> the tests your doctor may have come to a different conclusion. The

> point I tried to make is that ferritin alone testing may not be

wise.

>

> Please let me know how the vitamin works. Is there a certain brand

> your doc suggested?

>

> Bj

>

>

>

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Ferritin should never be used as a gauge of when to

> supplement

> > with

> > > > > iron. Ferritin is a measure of storage iron or a backup

> supply

> > of

> > > > > iron. You assay anemia with either hemoglobin or

hematocrit,

> > they

> > > > > are initialized HGB and HCT on lab reports respectively.

> > Anything

> > > > > less than 10-12 in hemoglobin is considered anemia. For

> > hematocrit,

> > > > > a normal range is 42-44% for adult females and adult males

is

> > 45-

> > > > > 47%. This particular lab value may vary from day to day and

> > > > > vegetarians will experience a slightly lesser hematocrit as

a

> > trend.

> > > > > Where anemia is discovered the patient should supplement

with

> a

> > > > > complex of B vitamins.

> > > > >

> > > > > Loss of energy is one of the first signs of iron overload.

> This

> > due

> > > > > to iron storing in the thyroid. Anyone with thyroid

> malfunction

> > > > > should be screened immediately for iron overload. The proper

> > > > > screening tests are transferrin saturation (TS) and serum

> > ferritin

> > > > > (SF). Anything above 44% in saturation is diagnostic for

> > > > > hemochromatosis.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hi Bj, not sure what my conclusion should be here -- on STTM

> and

> > other

> > > > places I have read that low ferritin affects the thyroid and

> that

> > you

> > > > don't want it low. Here are my recent labs:

> > > >

> > > > ferritin 12 10-232 ng/mL

> > > > hemoglobin 14.2 11.7-15.5 g/dL