Guest guest Posted July 6, 2002 Report Share Posted July 6, 2002 Dear Mr. Calhoun, Calhoun wrote: > > > But, even if we grant the towering intellectual and historical import > of Jung, even as we make him out to be an antagonist to hippies, the > 'modern', jazz, yada yada yada, to hear other awesome > 'traditionalists' tell it, the hippies have somehow won, crack babies > and all, and won despite not having any political power, not having > any giant material assets, not having any big time minds in their > camp, not having the reins of either military or industrial power in > their hands, not having produced great art or great ideas or great > morals. . .or maturity. . . Ah, but they do... Is Nietzsche not a big time mind? Is Heidegger not? What about J Gould or Noam Chomsky? -not quite in the same class, perhaps, but fairly heavy hitters nonetheless, surely? Not to mention the vast majority of the ordinary professoriat. No political or material power? What about Hollywood, and the rest of the media? Popular music? The 60's generation has largely captured them (not entirely - there is still Ann Coulter, bless her heart -but largely) and the tremendous rhetorical, persuasive power that they represent - and their material assets as well. Hollywood represents a large piece of " corporate America, " and is controlled by the new left. No political power? What about the Democratic Party - and, for that matter, half of the Republican Party? There are hardly any conservatives anymore. Yes, the hippies have won. They haven't persuaded everyone to adopt voluntary poverty - that's hardly possible, and indeed the haven't done it themselves. But apart from that, they have put a strong stamp on the culture. They cut their hair, put on suits, got jobs, and bought expensive foreign cars - but they didn't change their " core values, " and now they have just about won. Bill Gates is to all intents and purposes a hippy. Imagine America in 1952, and America now. Imagine what would have happened if, in 1952, the President had been caught in the same compromising position that Clinton was. No great art, great ideas, great morality, or maturity? Perhaps. But you can't accuse the 60's generation of having failed to achieve great power and influence. The culture is now shot through with their influence. > > > Anyway trying to extend such a dialogue with Mr. Watkins is a hobby > here, is it not? More a hobby of mine, if anything :-). > > > imo the discussion is jejune. > > *** > > Still, it does afford me the chance to recount an old joke wrapping > all the currents together: > > Henry Kissinger and the pope had chartered a private jet to take them > to a conference way back in the day and on the day they departed the > pope invited a hippie to come with them. The bedraggled long hair, > you see, had been hanging around the airport wanting to freeload a > ride to jump start a little hashish tour of asia. > > Alas, the jet developed engine trouble midway over the atlantic and > so it happened the pilots rushed through the cabin, dumped two > parachutes at their passenger's feet and with their own parachutes > strapped to their backs they pushed open the cabin door and jumped to > save their lives. > > An intense conversation ensued among Kissinger, the pope, and the hippie. > > Kissinger volunteered one of the parachutes to the pope. > > " After all you are at the head of the Christian religion. " > > But the pope demurred. " Truly I cannot save myself in lieu of this young man. " > > Kissinger responded, " Oh kind sir, have a sense of priorities! After > all, I'm the smartest man in the world and so much responsibility is > a burden I must continue to fulfill. " > > With that Kissinger grabbed a parachute and jumped out the door. > > The pope turned to the hippie, " Young man save your self. " > > The hippie grabbed a parachute and then reached down and grabbed a > second parachute. > > He turned to the pope, " And save your self kind sir, for you see the > smartest man in the world has grabbed my back-pack and jumped out the > door. " I heard this story with Bill Gates in the role of Kissinger, lol. Best regards, Dan Watkins > > > *** > > regards, > > in Clepheland > > > " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering. " > > H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2002 Report Share Posted July 6, 2002 Stephan Calhoun: If I read your posting about the lasting success of the hippies, I want to temper it just a little. Only two words, from the Pledge of Allegience (of all things!) but quite likely a watershed. ' .... under God ...' would seem to have destroyed two other words: Politically Correct. Dr ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2002 Report Share Posted July 7, 2002 Dan, all, Nietzsche, Heidegger, Gould, Chomsky, hey what about Marcuse, Norman O. Brown, Henri Bergson, Whitehead, Freud, Marcuse, Feyerabend, Polanyi, Santillana, Haich, Eliade, Arthur Young, Fuller, Penrose, Needleman, Joe ('follow your bliss!') , W.I. , Maslow, Bateson, Sternberg, Bohm, Brockman, Boulding, Rorty; farther out: Siu, Bachelard, Jansch, Gebser, Charon, Prigogine, Wilbur, Lilly, Leary, R.A. and the ladies too: Arendt, Houston, Bolen, Klein, Woodman, Luke, Boorstein, Nussbaum, Woodman, Eisler, Pagels, on and on and on... and: the professoriat, show biz, poets, artists, musicians, dancers, most Buddhists, jews, taoists, yoga teachers, vegans, african-americans, native americans, mavericks, discordians, puer aeterni, intuitives, women, new agers and on and on and on. . . and: Bill Gates and Steve Jobs to boot! What does that leave you Dan? Jung? (Heck you can have him if you must have him.) Ann Coulter? (Now there's a towering intellect.) Rush Limbaugh, Ken Lay, T-Ball, and Scalia and Clarence , Bill , Delay, most small town southern sheriffs, and. . . Will and all the other unctuous mighty mights of social darwinism, materialism and righteousness. The hippies won. Eros and the feminine is winning. . . Yipppeee. *** I'm embarrassed to contribute my own jejune commentary. But at least the paranoid style of conservatism is revealed here to have real enemies in a losing cause. Unfortunately for the space travel hope, we have the evidence of the profound psychological ramifications of seeing earth from afar, and how such a perspective seems to turn even the astronaut into a hippie. *** regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2002 Report Share Posted July 7, 2002 Stephan Calhoun: Himph? You phoo-phoo Jung in favor of such ilk as 'the professoriat, show-biz, poets, artists, musicians, dancers, most Buddhists, jews, taoists, yoga teachers, vegans, african-americans, native-americans, discordians, peur aeterni, mavericks, intuitives, women, new agers, and on and on ...' But Calhoun, old chap - the group is NAMED Jung-Fire and one assumedly belongs to it in order to discuss, well, Jung. No? All the other .. other categories .. are available ad nausium on lists after lists, your aforelisted classes of oddities attracting egos and the frustrateds by the ton. Is there no one in a yahoogroup advertised as Jung-Fire who performs as advertised? Dr (VASTLY amused with your collecting these types) ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2002 Report Share Posted July 7, 2002 In a message dated 7/7/2002 12:54:57 AM Central Daylight Time, kearny2@... writes: > Only two words, from the > Pledge of Allegience (of all things!) but quite likely a watershed. ' > ... under God ... FWIW, the Pledge of Allegience I grew up memorizing didn't contain these two words - until they were added in 1954. I have no problem with returning to the original. Sam in Texas §(ô¿ô)§ Minds are like parachutes; they only function when open. - Sir Dewar A closed mind is a good thing to lose. " Minds are like parachutes; most people use them only as a last resort. " ~Ben Ostrowsky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2002 Report Share Posted July 7, 2002 Dear , You wrote: > > > The hippies won. Eros and the feminine is winning. . . > And wasn't that my original point :-)? Best regards, Dan Watkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2002 Report Share Posted July 7, 2002 Dan & Watkins: Your posting claims that 'Eros and the feminine are winning.' Uhm -- winning what, exactly? Eros degenerated into mushy sentiments of objectionable showy expressionism, girly-girly stuff; and the feminine is -- truly pathetic. This ilk Wants It All, and, it seems, is getting it. All the work, all the care of the kids, all the stress, all the cardiac warnings, all the wrinkles, all the fake-fun in singles bars, and so on and on and on. Watta life! Dr ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2002 Report Share Posted July 7, 2002 Dan, all, > > The hippies won. Eros and the feminine is winning. . . >> > >And wasn't that my original point :-)? Yes, and of course if making such a point has any traction in a discussion about hippies vs Dan's head, then there you have it. Your point that is. *** It's, to me, a mindless and silly setting. That would be my point, no doubt poorly made. Use poor Dr. Jung as you have, do, and will in the future. To justify such a reduction of the currents of history to hippies winning. . . Nobody knows what Dr. Jung would think about today's world, but it's well understood here what you think Jung would have thought. Methinks I don't know what Jung would have thought. *** regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2002 Report Share Posted July 7, 2002 , Dan, et al: > Use poor Dr. Jung as you have, do, and will in the future. To justify > such a reduction of the currents of history to hippies winning. . . > > Nobody knows what Dr. Jung would think about today's world, but it's > well understood here what you think Jung would have thought. Jung was decribed by various members of his inner circle as being neither a radical nor a reactionary, but a liberal (with a small l). His attitude to young people, despite his emphasis on the second half of life, was positive. (Any IGAP high-ups lurking here, please take note!!!) Marie-Louise von Franz was 19 when she began her training. Toni Wolff was 22. This makes fa geriatric!!! fa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2002 Report Share Posted July 7, 2002 Dr. , Do you have a wife? Daughters? Grandaughters? Female friends? Do they have the impression, as I do, that you despise women in particular and young people in general? Or do you merely have a strange sense of humour? fa (youngest list member, not a feminist, and liberal like Jung rather than reactionary like Dan, our Republican Party Reptile, or new-age wimp such as abound on these lists!!!) Re: flower power > Dan & Watkins: > > Your posting claims that 'Eros and the feminine are winning.' Uhm -- > winning what, exactly? Eros degenerated into > mushy sentiments of objectionable showy expressionism, girly-girly stuff; > and the feminine is -- truly pathetic. This ilk > Wants It All, and, it seems, is getting it. All the work, all the care > of the kids, all the stress, all the cardiac warnings, all the wrinkles, > all the fake-fun in singles bars, and so on and on and on. Watta life! > > Dr > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > > " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering. " > > H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2002 Report Share Posted July 7, 2002 Sam Patron: Neither do I -- but the harm has been done with '...under God ...' and I rock with glee. Such an inoccuous thing, the Pledge of Allegience, to raise up this storm of opposition to the smirking intellectual elite, the 'internationalists' who have done so much to sabotage a host-country who gave them succor in 1938. This politically correct crowd suffered a blow with '... under God ...' not seen since they succeeded years ago with Nativity scenes in public places and called it 'religious' and caused its cultural affection to be surpressed in favor of their aetheism. Well, we got taught by those 1938-ers in our schools that we MUST tolerate just about everyone when they do just about everything .. Or Else! Its no longer 1938. Dr ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2002 Report Share Posted July 7, 2002 fa: Confession being good for the soul, and my admission to having not alone a 70-year old wife these 49-yrs past BUT HER 93-YR OLD MOTHER AS WELL, you will understand my grouchiness with women in general and - oh God! - young women very much in particular. Being quite close to perfection myself, it is perhaps unfair to expect these always indignant, ever exasperated, universally censorious, contrary, and every utterance a scold or sarcasm, to match my own wonderful disposition. Female friends? Not in the way you may think and not, I assure you, deliberately recruited. As for 'young people' - ugh. When, oh when, can we return to being ian 'ladies' and 'gentlemen'? 'Eliza - where the devil did I put my slippers!' Dr ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2002 Report Share Posted July 7, 2002 Dear Dr. , You wrote: > Dan & Watkins: > > Your posting claims that 'Eros and the feminine are winning.' Uhm -- > winning what, exactly? Winning the so-called culture wars.I don't say it's a good thing - imo, it's not. Jung decried the the female domination of American men in 1912; since then, the rot has spread. Best regards, Dan Watkins > Eros degenerated into > mushy sentiments of objectionable showy expressionism, girly-girly stuff; > and the feminine is -- truly pathetic. This ilk > Wants It All, and, it seems, is getting it. All the work, all the care > of the kids, all the stress, all the cardiac warnings, all the wrinkles, > all the fake-fun in singles bars, and so on and on and on. Watta life! > > Dr > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > > " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering. " > > H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2002 Report Share Posted July 8, 2002 Dear 75 year old grouch, you wrote: " always indignant, ever exasperated, universally censorious, contrary, and > every utterance a scold or sarcasm, to match my own wonderful disposition. " Ever had any 78 year old person of the male persuasion as a housemate? No difference at all except he would complain more about the little things and turn the TV up to LOUD. And contrary???? my goodness, your sex is difficult to live with at times. Never censorious old women around here. Pretty lackadaisical as a matter of fact On the other hand I couldn't live without them, and am heartily grateful for every day together. Daughters are great and they stick around occasionally and bring grandchildren with them to make a little confusion, and send me straight to a nap when they leave. But such fun while they are around. It might amaze you to learn there are quite a few happy, contented, non censorious old women around (me for one) Some of us age well, others badly. I suppose, if I would be fair, I would have to admit the same for men. Can't say I am not occasionally contrary, and sometimes, (now very seldom at home) sarcastic.I also nag because otherwise vitamins or pills would not be taken, and also am somewhat hard of hearing or as I tell him, he mumbles.What can I say, we perfect women are so misunderstood I too am nearly perfect and all this time I thought only women could be perfect. Now young ones are just beautiful, ornery, full of life and adverse to advice from their elders ( terrible situation for a mother who loves to preach_) But I agree on the manners thing. I would love a little more politeness from the younger generation. They wouldn't have to stand up when I come into the room (as I had to once long ago) I wish " mam and " sir " were used a little more, and that just occasionally one would dress up, But, we have to adapt don';to we when a grandchild says " what " to her mother Instead of interfering as I am wont to do,with my 8 year old and telling her 'what " is not polite with one's elders. She looked at me as if I had lost my mind...I guess I had. But they make up for it in being kind and considerate more often than not and mine are very loving, even if they don't always remember their manners. I don't believe a word of your grouchiness at old women anyway. Nor, I must admit, your perfection. On a another subject. Why , at 75, would you go on a diet? Pleasingly plump is OK for us, I think, and my doctor said to me " no diets " even after my heart attack. As if I were even thinking of making my life complicated and unpleasant.. Luckily I am married to a once slim man (as I too was once) who now has also become pleasingly plump, so I don't feel any need to alter my appearance, especially when those sitting on my lap say they prefer " fluffy " laps. Also fat hides wrinkles, and who wants to look like a dried out prune anyway? Now we've settled that, we can return to solemn, erudite thoughts. Toni Message ----- To: <JUNG-FIRE > Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 6:29 PM Subject: Re: flower power > fa: > > Confession being good for the soul, and my admission to having not alone > a 70-year old wife these 49-yrs past BUT HER 93-YR OLD MOTHER AS WELL, snip > you will understand my grouchiness with women in general and - oh God! - > young women very much in particular. Being quite close to perfection > myself, it is perhaps unfair to expect these > Female friends? Not in the way you may think and not, I > assure you, deliberately recruited. As for 'young people' - ugh. When, > oh when, can we return to being ian 'ladies' and 'gentlemen'? > > 'Eliza - where the devil did I put my slippers!' > > Dr > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2002 Report Share Posted July 8, 2002 It isn't the elite who object, or the liberals in toto. It was just time for some silliness in the country. The fundamentalists just do not understand humor, or that one can always pray in silence and nobody can stop them As if " under God " were a magic tailsman, or prayer in the schools would stop violence in the schools. The whole thing is idiotic to my mind. We do not need the 10 commandments on the wall to remind us how many we break daily, nor will they stop anyone from doing anything I suppose wrangling about these " heavy " subjects keeps our mind off the economic problems and illigality of many companies including the " failed " businessman in the White House. War with Iraq? No, lets scream about the separation of church and state (not in danger) instead. The " under G-d " slogan will not provide jobs for the thousands laid off by greed. what is this? : " > raise up this storm of opposition to the smirking intellectual elite, the > 'internationalists' who have done so much to sabotage a host-country who gave them succor in 1938 " I will not attempt to decipher what you meant here. Rather you explained it. It doesn't pass my refugee smell test as it is???? you said ; " Well, we got taught by those 1938-ers in our schools that we > MUST tolerate just about everyone when they do just about everything .. > Or Else! > Its no longer 1938.'' I don't even want to go there? what are you saying? Toni ..Original Message ----- To: <JUNG-FIRE > Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 6:11 PM Subject: Re: flower power > Sam Patron: > > Neither do I -- but the harm has been done with '...under God ...' and I > rock with glee. Such an innocuous thing, the Pledge of Allegience, to .. This politically correct crowd suffered > a blow with '... under God ...' not seen since they succeeded years ago > with Nativity scenes in public places and called it 'religious' and > caused its cultural affection to be surpressed in favor of their > aetheism. > > Dr > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2002 Report Share Posted July 8, 2002 Dear , Thank you for such a beautifully written reminder of some of the most conscious and meaningful years of my life. The sixties were indeed " an oasis in a dark time. " We sure could use some love and flower power now. God help us! Suzanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2002 Report Share Posted July 8, 2002 Vienna toni-toni: Men? 'Grouchy'? Never! And the diet is Dr. Adkins (see NYTIMES Sunday Magazine 7/7/02) to defeat a borderline case of Type II diabetes. At 75, who cares if you're slim or not and that, dear lady, includes wrinkles. You claim to be a happy, non-censorious woman .... ah-h; but you're not one of the Ridgewood Germans, madam! God speed! Dr ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2002 Report Share Posted July 8, 2002 Vienna toni,toni2: '... under God ...' we both admit to being silly, 'tis true; but the wild response to it wasn't silly at all, was it. And do you know, I rather wonder if schoolrooms - especially schoolrooms! - with Ten Commandments on the wall might have a similar sub-liminal effext like repeated-repeated-repeated ads for Coca Cola. Y' nevah know. Your not wanting to go there doesn't remove the malicious harm of those '38-ers, and from many of us, 'Never Again!' Ah well . . . Dr ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2002 Report Share Posted July 8, 2002 Before we reduce the sixties to a bunch of kids sitting around smoking dope having promiscuous sex, may I interject a bit of reality? My reality, that is, as one who grew up in the 60's. This was the first generation that lived under the cloud of nuclear annihilation. Children we were facing this possibility, not adults. We had " duck and cover " drills in school. Remember the small yellow and black signs directing you to a " fallout shelter? " How absurd! The post-WWII era had brought with it a fundamentalist " clamping down " on freedom of expression in the name of anti-communism, sending that freedom of expression into the shadow. There was a huge unleashing of creativity with the birth of rock and roll. Music had never seen anything like it, and has never been the same. Personally, my father, having returned from WWII with a heavy, untreated, dose of PTSD, thought that the best way to raise a son was to treat the house like an Army boot camp with the father as drill instructor. I hid in my room to survive, listening to my transistor radio and falling in love with baseball and rock & roll. Into my shadow went all sorts of things other kids were allowed to do, like run and play, but I developed a strong sense of justice (being a Libra). I saw my father root for the police to " Kill those bastards " as we watched the police riots in Chicago at the '68 democratic convention on television. Those bastards he was rooting to be killed weren't that much older than me. When I got older, those trapped energies came flying out of my shadow, as I believe they did for many. I don't think the effects of PTSD suffered by the WWII and Korea generations that caused shadow projections onto the young men and women of the sixties generation can be underestimated. This was the first generation that grew up with television, a medium of incredible power for education and art, and for propaganda and materialism. JFK was murdered. I have to believe in our collective shadow we knew deep down we were being fed a lie by the Warren commission. Magic bullet my ass. Maybe we also knew deep down in our collective shadow that the whole Gulf of Tonkin thing was a lie exploited by the US to escalate the Vietnam war beyond comprehension. We were going to the moon. Many women were saying, maybe we don't feel like being barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen anymore. More than anything, IMO, it was the atrocities of Vietnam that were being shown daily on television. The South Vietnamese officer that summarily executed without a trial a suspected North Vietnamese spy. You've all seen the photo. The little girl running down the road naked, her clothes having been stripped from her by a Napalm blast, you've all seen the photo. There was a steady stream of body bags returning from southeast Asia usually containing the poorest kid on the block. And maybe we all knew down deep inside that it was for nothing more than making a few white men running the military-industrial complex rich, as has been shown to be the case. In one 12 month period in '67 and '68 alone was the demonstration with thousands of people surrounding the pentagon (some wanted to levitate it ) , the reaction to the Tet offensive caused over 500,000 soldiers to be in Vietnam, Walter Cronkite had the courage to stand up and tell us that the US military was basically lying to us, an army officer was quoted as saying (look it up), " We had to destroy the town to save it, " basically admitted he was powerless to stop the war and declined to run again, M.L. King was murdered, RFK was murdered (the one man on which many pinned their hopes for ending the war), the Czech uprising and resulting Soviet crackdown, the student revolt in Paris, the police riots (as have been shown) at the democratic convention in Chicago ( " the whole world is watching " ) at which point I saw my father root for the police to " kill the bastards. " Anybody still remember their lottery number from the draft? I remember mine. 51. Lucky for me, I was too young by one year. Anybody remember this song by Country Joe and the Fish? I can still sing it by heart. It's called the " I Feel Like I'm a Fixin' to Die Rag. " " Well come on all of you big strong men Uncle Sam needs your help again He's got himself in a terrible jam Way down yonder in Viet-Nam Put down your books and pick up a gun We're gonna have a whole lotta fun And it's one, two, three, What are we fightin' for? Don't ask me I don't give a damn The next stop is Viet-Nam And it's five six, seven Open up the pearly gates 'cause, there ain't no time to wonder why Whoopeee! We're all gonna die! " The rich kids got deferments or went through ROTC in college. Or maybe they were just " paper soldiers " and didn't show up, with the help of their rich friends, as in the case of the current president we're all supposed to admire under threat of treason. I sure as hell wasn't going to go. I had my AAA road map all marked with the roads that were going to take me to Port Huron, Michigan and the bridge to Canada that was being used as an " underground railroad " of sorts. God bless the Canadians, they knew what was going on. Nixon campaigned on ending the war. He lied. Big surprise there. Kent State. Sexuality came out of the shadow. I see this as partly a natural exploration, partly a backlash against the repression that had kept people from exploring their natural tendencies for who knows how long. Marijuana and LSD came out of the shadow. Now, say what you will about all the various mind altering substances available, but LSD, when used correctly and with the proper guidance and with the proper reverence and intention, can allow a person to have a very spiritually, shamanically, opening experience. The third eye gets a squeegee treatment. Granted, not many were using LSD in this way, nor was the quality particularly good. But it has been known to cause a peak experience of a spiritual nature, and is wonderful tool for psychotherapy. This is when Stan Grof was doing his best work. Leary may have been in front of the cameras, but Grof was doing some serious work behind the scenes. People like Cary Grant were helped immensely by it and swore by it publicly. And with all the poor quality, people seeing their shadows and not knowing what to make of them, without the intention and the setting that was necessary, to paraphrase Leary, in spite of all this, I believe people had spiritually uplifting experiences. All of these events had an impact on the collective unconscious. Everything is connected. So, what does this point out? Many people perceived their lives as meaningless, simply pawns in a consumer, fundamentalist materialist culture with 2 cars in the garage and mom's getting the clothes whiter than white, which is what the hucksters on television were telling them. Many young men thought that the older generation viewed them as little more than cannon fodder so that a few white men smoking cigars could get rich. These young people wanted an ecstatic experience! They wanted a spiritual experience! They wanted answers! There was a renewed interest in shamanism, in Jung, in Buckminster Fuller, in Eastern thought, in indigenous cultures. All of this was coming out of the shadow after the clamping down of previous generations. So maybe, just maybe, there is a little more than meets the eye, more than the reductionist thinking that has been going on here of late. It's so easy to slap labels on something, labels that really don't have any meaning. And I also have my labels and it's been really hard not to slap the fascist label on certain people here lately. But we are all more than our labels, regardless of what the hucksters who are selling something would have us believe. In any serious discussion of a time in people's lives, how can people on this list of all places be so quick to slap labels on an entire decade as a way of preaching a fundamentalist evangel (your form of being a marketing huckster), with as little respect paid to unconscious forces, personally and collectively, as has been paid here? These events did not occur in a vacuum! And what does my informed and considered opinion, influenced as it is by personal and collective shadow, tell me was the legacy of the sixties? I see some, not all, the events of the '60's as a brief oasis, in what was then and is even more so now, a very dark time. I think that many people lost hope. They didn't find the answers they were looking for. And they themselves got hooked on fundamentalist materialism. And a few people found the answers they were looking for. But for the most part, the hucksters are running the world. The purpose of this country isn't, and maybe has never been, for the freedom and flourishing of every individual in it. To paraphrase one of my favorite movies, Network, " There are no nations! There are no peoples! There's only ITT, AT & T, GE, Texaco, Mobil. " Example? The first Woodstock was, for many, an event that showed what people could do when they worked together and not against each other. To bring people together for love, not war. The second Woodstock was a marketing event. The mistake we made, if there was one, because arguably things turned out exactly as they should have, is that we, as a society, as a culture, as a people, didn't examine the shadow thoroughly enough! Didn't work with the unconscious forces, respect the unconscious forces, find out about it, and what makes us tick. Most people are unconscious of the unconscious. But what do we expect of people? Do we expect too much? It's damn hard, and the bills need to be paid and the children fed. To quote my analyst, " you're doing the hardest work there is. The work of examining the Self. " But as a friend of mine, a Vedantic teacher from India, says, as we look out the window of his apartment on the intense poverty that is Bombay, " why on earth would we want it to change? " Meaning, that the one constant is change! But we, our egos, are not in charge! The archetypal forces are playing out a script of which we only get glimpses. As in Hillman's Daemon principle. The acorn may not realize it is growing into an oak tree, but an oak tree it sure as hell is going to be. And this is the mystery: where we're going individually and collectively, regardless of all our simple minded stories about " how things should be " . Peace and Love Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2002 Report Share Posted July 8, 2002 Thank you so much Alice and Suzanne. Your kind words mean a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 Darn it, who are the " Ridgewood Germans " ? I am NOT and have never been a German. Please underline that twice. According to the Austrian government after 1938, I wasn't even a citizen of Austria, though born in Vienna.( that decree upset my patriotic father who fought for Franz f in WW1 terribly. By the way I too used Dr Atkins in my mispent youth when 5-10 pounds was a tragedy.. It always worked. The problem is I am a carbohidrate junky. I could eat pasta, rice and potatoes almost exclusively,along with every known vegitable or fruit. I grant I have kept some European ideas, views and manners, but those were not German. German, indeed!!! Toni Re: flower power > Vienna toni-toni: > > Men? 'Grouchy'? Never! And the diet is Dr. Adkins (see NYTIMES Sunday > Magazine 7/7/02) to defeat a borderline case of Type II diabetes. At 75, > who cares if you're slim or not and that, dear lady, includes wrinkles. > You claim to be a happy, non-censorious woman .... ah-h; but you're not > one of the Ridgewood Germans, madam! > > God speed! > > Dr >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 you said, dear ornery one: " Your not > wanting to go there doesn't remove the malicious harm of those '38-ers, > and from many of us, 'Never Again!' I said that because I did not understand what you wrote. No, I agree ,Never again , but I wish I didn't have to put a small question mark to that assertion considering another mass of fanatical people who want to drive Israel into the sea.The anti-Semitism hasn't stopped in Europe has it? Nor will it. Human nature does not really change until it becomes more conscious, and that doesn't seem to happen anytime soon. About sublimely messages. I don't think an atheist is likely to become a believer because he repeated " under G-d " every day as a pupil or politician, do you? Toni Re: flower power > Vienna toni,toni2: > > '... under God ...' we both admit to being silly, 'tis true; but the wild > response to it wasn't silly at all, was it. And do you know, I rather > wonder if schoolrooms - especially schoolrooms! - with Ten Commandments > on the wall might have a similar sub-liminal effext like > repeated-repeated-repeated ads for Coca Cola. Y' nevah know. > Ah well . .. . > > Dr > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > > " Our highest duty as human beings is to search out a means whereby beings may be freed from all kinds of unsatisfactory experience and suffering. " > > H.H. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th. Dalai Lama > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 'vienna' toni-toni2, madam: Ridgewood is an 100-year old neighborhood straddling the Broolyn-Queens border; it was settled by mostly Germans and preserved through a high-class low income ghetto the mores of the homeland. Although the movie with Irene Dunne was about Norwegans in San Francisco, I Remember Momma portrays the Ridgewood Germans almost to a T. Thin-lipped church-obsessed respectability was the highest achievement in Ridgewood .... lots of Calvin influence in spite of almost universal Catholicicism. Bustling chin-up, eyes everywhere, ladies of any age, patrolled the sidewalks and kept (most) of the butchers, delicatessens, drapers, bakeries reasonably honest, and also supported dour politicians, priests, and undertakers. Brave men quivered at their approach, but never deserted them (they woiuldn't dare!) Mam-mah, my mother in law, is a product of that dominating ethos. Pray for me. Dr ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 'vienna' toni-toni2 madam: Forgive my inept communicating: no, no athiest will convert thanks to ' .... under God ...' but that's not the point; the importance - the maybe importance - of the uproar, was just that; a surprising reaction to a silly court decision. This reaction was perhaps The Silent Majority finally speaking out, and thus possibly the watershed I talked of. At any event, Jung-Free is not the vehicle for this nonsense. Now, about those archtypes --- Dr ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 , all, Your fine and reflective and personal post echoes much of my experience and some of my own modest learning. >This was the first generation that lived under the cloud of nuclear >annihilation. This was a startling fact for me as a child. Later, when I was a teenager, because my parents simply told me a nuclear holocaust could not happen, I did enough research to convince myself that no such certainty could be sustained. The situation is probably more dire today. My own optimistic attitude is back-grounded by this fact of our unfolding era. >Personally, my father, having returned from WWII with a heavy, >untreated, dose of PTSD, thought that the best way to raise a son was to >treat the house like an Army boot camp My father, an army air corps pilot in the pacific, was hospitalized for combat-related psychiatric reasons in the middle of WWII. He was a complicated man who was not able to express his affiliative emotions at all. He became very accomplished as an attorney but showed very little interest in being a father. He was passive, not strict, and not engaged. He never would show you where he stood! I am, thus, my 'good' mother's son, as are my brothers. My draft number was in the 40's but the call-up was ended the spring of my senior year, 1972. Nobody in my class from the private boys schools I attended would have gone and none wished to go. We enjoyed the perks of our family's privilege. Not only did we not accept the reasons for our country being at war at the time, but nobody wanted to die young for any reason. The idea that we should love and be willing to die for our country was preposterous just as the supposed righteousness of our country was not demonstrable to us. *** >Sexuality came out of the shadow. Interestingly, my mother, who became a college vice president in the late 70's after a career as a professor when she was either the only or one of not more than two women on the english department faculty, came up in the generation after ww2 where the entire model for what any woman could obtain (as to who they 'really' were to be') was irrevocably changed. I don't think this singular generation of women has been adequately appreciated, but, they were the mothers of the liberated, free-thinking women (and men!) of my own 60s/70s era. We young men of the decidedly affluent set (speaking here only of my own experience,) were largely aware of the equality of women, (oh and we were sexists at times too). Most women set upon the path of accomplishment and professional fulfillment which had been a daring move for the preceding generation. The women of my own generation have influenced me much more than the men over the years. >Marijuana and LSD came out of the shadow. I don't think there is a good reason make a good case for the self-indulgent use of drugs to escape and get high but the acid was very good and I wouldn't trade away the experiences that were edifying, but, in retrospect, those same experiences are of much less import than they seemed to obtain at the time. Tripping at least teaches one that the mind is subject to brain chemistry and that the ego is not the indisputable captain of the ship. *** I am not a particularly mature, ambitious, or realized man. I don't whip myself either. My 'generation', if it, (and 'it' qualified, at least, by the upper middle class parents who were forced to pick up the pieces of a considerable amount of wreckage,) can be safely labelled as being formulated at the time by the counter-cultural pulse, was tremendously self-indulgent, spoiled, and naive. I just went to my 30th high school reunion and most of my classmates have travelled tracks since then that we would recognize as being more like the normal and grown-up response to life than anything else. (Of course not every teenager of my era or of my set was a 'long hair'; not by a long shot.) Yet, in this small group (my class had 62 members) there is something quite different going on. It is not an icey, snobby group. Likely 75% of my class are wealthy but they are unpretentious, generally liberal, and have themselves survived with insight the impact of the usual catastrophes which accrue as one becomes committed to other people, their families, causes beyond one's own self. We had a men's circle and it was quite moving. We are to lesser or greater extents able to speak of our experience in feeling-qualified terms, in the language of compassion, if you will. I do not credit this to the influence of the counter-culture. I do not know what to credit it to except to note almost every one of us would not say that this kind of deepened acknowledgement was learned from their fathers. *** Speaking for myself, I took the road less travelled. Early on I dedicated myself to learning both on my own non-formal terms and among those teachers and groups who stand outside of the 'collective' conception of education. In my litany of some of the great minds of the so-called counterculture (a poor label but usable here,) is also the listing of my own encounter with ideas, and encounter that served to comment upon and finally help explode a coinciding commitment to comprehend the more conventional history, sociology of ideas. But what was decisive were encounters with persons who knew they knew, were -perhaps- individuated, and who brooked no counter culture nonsense at all. Some were conservative and traditional in the very best sense of those words: unsparingly critical of foolishness, ego identification, and anything that was an obstacle to nobility expressed simply as service. Paradoxically, it was the serendipity unfolded out of my own self-centered choice making, my own pointless desires acted upon, that threw me into the cauldron of learning. It has made marching uncritically to anything, for me, impossible, or -God Willing- impossible. There is nothing exceptional about this. In fact, I'm fortunate to have developed any number of relationships with other such explorers, artists, persons dedicated to aid. It is for me cause for great optimism. Many people are serving each other, their communities, and in much wider spheres, and living lives of creative being/becoming. It is a quiet movement yet it is in its way a maturated collaborative working outside the norms of collective culture. As Alice points out, 1X1X1X1... Nobody is trying to reform people. The simplest operating principles are, given the divine context, certain mortality, and the fact of transformative and sublime human nature, that teachers are students and students are teachers, and, only service is required to be implemented. Self-satisfaction is not the goal. (That's a sea change.) Needless to say, I would not trade away the 'grotesqueries' of my own 'hippie' experience; I don't see how they could have been cleaved away from the positive and crucial parts of the experience. And, finally, I've experienced the normal catastrophes in my mid-life that irrevocably unhook me from holding onto the wish that what I believe in will spare me from the most low and human and sad and terrifying and heart-wrenching usuals of being a person. *** regards, in Clepheland (I would also claim Jung as someone who offered a hopeful 'way' in the light of spiritual reality he demonstrated to himself, and not as someone who's way is cynical and accepting of the immutability and tragedy of human nature. He doesn't strike me as an optimist, but his way is not pessimistic; it offers a better hope. And there's nothing in his writing that suggests -absurdly- that he surely thought mankind's best hopes had been passed in distant history. This is as I read him and his analytic psychology equals, and may be only a novel reading.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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