Re: My anti body level is over 3000

[Guest guest]

Antibodies this high means that your thyroid gland is being attacked

big-time to destroy it

To get the antibodies down you need to take enough thyroid hormone

replacement to get your TSH down . Mine is <0.01 and I am on 390mgs Armour

...........Meleese x

----- Original Message -----

> what does this mean?

> I go in for my second B-12 shot Wednesday...

> but I won't see my Naturopath until a week from Wednesday...I did e-

> mail her this same question...I was just wondering what that number

> actually means...the range on my bloodwork says it's suppose to be in

> the range of 0-44...guess that means it's pretty high huh??

> Thanks...

> ~Amy~

> Be well...

>

>

[Guest guest]

Over the years I've noticed (on several thyroid boards) that there is a lot of misunderstanding about TPOabs and TGabs. Even though these antibodies are known as the "markers for inflammation" - TPOabs don't actually "destroy" the thyroid cells - they tell us there is inflammation happening (and may ignite 'complement' type inflammation via their presence). But, unlike TRabs, these antibodies are not built to target thyroid cells. TPOabs are antibodies against the "free" peroxidase enzyme (that has gotten outside of the thyroid cells after inflammation), and they are actually cleaning up AFTER a thyroid cell has already been damaged.

So high amounts of TPOab *might* mean that more damage has occured, but it could also mean your immune system is very strong and white blood cells are plentiful. My son has had TPOabs of 20,000 for over 4 years, yet his thyroid is still strong and producing good hormone levels. He does have inflammation - but the TPOab numbers don't equal how much.

At first I freaked out about his super high number, but his endo told me not to worry - he feels that his healthy lifestyle contributes to a healthy immune system that can build high amounts of antibodies to accomplish this clean up job - even when there are only low amounts of inflammation.

Hope that helps!

Val

More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!

[Guest guest]

That means that your thyroid is now under very heavy antibody attack, being

slaughtered, so to speak. Mine were/are infinitely over 1000 and the other

one was/is over 2000. BTW, the tendency t'wd the activation of any

autoimmune disease, including this one, is sitting on various genes. They

have mapped some of the genes for Hashi's and for Grave's. We are genetic.

My anti body level is over 3000

> what does this mean?

> I go in for my second B-12 shot Wednesday...

> but I won't see my Naturopath until a week from Wednesday...I did e-

> mail her this same question...I was just wondering what that number

> actually means...the range on my bloodwork says it's suppose to be in

> the range of 0-44...guess that means it's pretty high huh??

> Thanks...

> ~Amy~

> Be well...

[Guest guest]

,

This is very interesting. My mother had her entire thyroid gland (she

had a goiter but that's all I rememer) removed when I was about 10. I

believe she said her mother also had thyroid problems. All dead now, but

I wish I knew more. I asked my older brother what he knew about mom's

thyroid and her surgery, but he just told me mom was a hypochondriac. My

younger brother didn't even remember going to the hospital to visit her

post op. I'm the only one alive who remembers anything. And from what

I've been learning about thyroid and thyroid meds this year, my mother's

last years were made miserable by what amounts to malpractice due to her

thyroid meds being taken entirely away.

Have you got some links to that info? I'd like to have it for my files.

sol

wrote:

> BTW, the tendency t'wd the activation of any

> autoimmune disease, including this one, is sitting on various genes. They

> have mapped some of the genes for Hashi's and for Grave's. We are genetic.

>

>

[Guest guest]

It's terrible to think that anyone thinks someone is a hypochondriac when they suffer like this. I myself have been accused of being a hypochondriac. I am sure that you mother was suffering from some sort of thyroid disease and did go untreated, which can be painful and depressing. It's also sad to know that there are so many doctors out there that treat people as such!

Alana

Re: My anti body level is over 3000

,This is very interesting. My mother had her entire thyroid gland (she had a goiter but that's all I rememer) removed when I was about 10. I believe she said her mother also had thyroid problems. All dead now, but I wish I knew more. I asked my older brother what he knew about mom's thyroid and her surgery, but he just told me mom was a hypochondriac. My younger brother didn't even remember going to the hospital to visit her post op. I'm the only one alive who remembers anything. And from what I've been learning about thyroid and thyroid meds this year, my mother's last years were made miserable by what amounts to malpractice due to her thyroid meds being taken entirely away.Have you got some links to that info? I'd like to have it for my files.sol wrote:> BTW, the tendency t'wd the activation of any > autoimmune disease, including this one, is sitting on various

genes. They > have mapped some of the genes for Hashi's and for Grave's. We are genetic.>>

[Guest guest]

I'm sure everyone in my family thinks I'm a hypochondriac too, I've been

ill and unable to work for 10 years, and went through doctor after

doctor for decades before that. But I think I'm finally on the right

track now.

And let me just say, anyone else ever tells me my problems are all in my

head, or I'm just lazy, they risk getting their teeth shoved down their

throat. Hmm, I'm sure that is improper grammar, but I can't seem to

remember how such threats should be worded. LOL.

sol

Alana Holmes wrote:

> It's terrible to think that anyone thinks someone is a hypochondriac

> when they suffer like this. I myself have been accused of being a

> hypochondriac. I am sure that you mother was suffering from some sort

> of thyroid disease and did go untreated, which can be painful and

> depressing. It's also sad to know that there are so many doctors out

> there that treat people as such!

>

> /*

> */

> *//*

[Guest guest]

Yes I also have been accused of being a hypochondriac and " making it up "

....................Meleese

----- Original Message -----

> I'm sure everyone in my family thinks I'm a hypochondriac too, I've been

> ill and unable to work for 10 years, and went through doctor after

> doctor for decades before that. But I think I'm finally on the right

> track now.

> And let me just say, anyone else ever tells me my problems are all in my

> head, or I'm just lazy, they risk getting their teeth shoved down their

> throat. Hmm, I'm sure that is improper grammar, but I can't seem to

> remember how such threats should be worded. LOL.

> sol

>

> Alana Holmes wrote:

>> It's terrible to think that anyone thinks someone is a hypochondriac

>> when they suffer like this. I myself have been accused of being a

>> hypochondriac. I am sure that you mother was suffering from some sort

>> of thyroid disease and did go untreated, which can be painful and

>> depressing. It's also sad to know that there are so many doctors out

>> there that treat people as such!

[Guest guest]

Yes, and I'll include that link. I don't know exactly what your mother died

of, but chronic ongoing hypo is very related to heart disease, etc......If

her thyroid meds were taken away, that probably just would have helped a

whole lot, geez. It makes me so angry. There are other genes somewhere in

there for this, but I lost that link somewhere, I guess. The Aire gene is

the main one, though. Doesn't mean that person WILL develop a disease, but

is very likely to develop one or more autoimmune diseases. This has all

happened since the conclusion of the Human Genome Project. Before this,

they couldn't have told you all of this. When did they complete that? Mid

nineties or so, something like that?

http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/gene=aire

This next one has the genetic testing in it somewhere, but I am too sick

right now to look through it. I believe I caught a bug at work and just

couldn't make myself go in last night, yukky! Anyway, it's in there

somewhere.

http://www.genetests.org/servlet/access?id=8888890 & key=tpSD9xtrlKMg8 & gry=INSERTG\

RY & fcn=y & fw=wgbT & filename=/

Re: My anti body level is over 3000

> ,

> This is very interesting. My mother had her entire thyroid gland (she

> had a goiter but that's all I rememer) removed when I was about 10. I

> believe she said her mother also had thyroid problems. All dead now, but

> I wish I knew more. I asked my older brother what he knew about mom's

> thyroid and her surgery, but he just told me mom was a hypochondriac. My

> younger brother didn't even remember going to the hospital to visit her

> post op. I'm the only one alive who remembers anything. And from what

> I've been learning about thyroid and thyroid meds this year, my mother's

> last years were made miserable by what amounts to malpractice due to her

> thyroid meds being taken entirely away.

>

> Have you got some links to that info? I'd like to have it for my files.

> sol

>

> wrote:

>> BTW, the tendency t'wd the activation of any

>> autoimmune disease, including this one, is sitting on various genes.

>> They

>> have mapped some of the genes for Hashi's and for Grave's. We are

>> genetic.

[Guest guest]

Yes, isn't it though? Evidently her brother does not display the disease, or he wouldn't be saying this at all.

Re: My anti body level is over 3000

It's terrible to think that anyone thinks someone is a hypochondriac when they suffer like this. I myself have been accused of being a hypochondriac. I am sure that you mother was suffering from some sort of thyroid disease and did go untreated, which can be painful and depressing. It's also sad to know that there are so many doctors out there that treat people as such!

Alana

[Guest guest]

Sounds good to me. English grammar: Me, You, Him, Her, It, Us, You, Them.

I, You, He, She, It? Sbjct and Predicates are: They (sbjct) risk

(predicate). What do they risk? " Getting Their Teeth Shoved Down Their

Throats " . Hmm, sounds like proper English to me. Or you could say it in

Spanish or French or any other language. Then the grammar would be

different for that culture. Hehehe.

Re: My anti body level is over 3000

> I'm sure everyone in my family thinks I'm a hypochondriac too, I've been

> ill and unable to work for 10 years, and went through doctor after

> doctor for decades before that. But I think I'm finally on the right

> track now.

> And let me just say, anyone else ever tells me my problems are all in my

> head, or I'm just lazy, they risk getting their teeth shoved down their

> throat. Hmm, I'm sure that is improper grammar, but I can't seem to

> remember how such threats should be worded. LOL.

> sol

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I think you may have read that lymphocytes attack the thyroid, not the antibodies. Antibodies bind to antigens - they don't have a way to attack. Once they bind to the target, they call on other lymphocytes to come destroy the antigen.

TRab antibodies (Graves antibodies) are actually binding to the thyroid receptor cells where they interfere with thyroid production.

But Hashi's antibodies don't bind to ANY part of the thyroid. They bind to Peroxidase that is loose in the blood (an enzyme) as well as a substance called thyroglobuin (that is loose int he blood stream). The reason these chemicals are loose in the blood stream is because killer lymphocytes have broken thyroid cells. So these antibodies are "MARKERS" for inflammation --- they are a signal that there has been thyroid destruction.

Aside from that, these antibodies MAY CONTRIBUTE to inflammation, but not directly. If these antibodies are TOO CLOSE to the thyroid tissues when they bind to peroxidase/thyroglobulin, then, when they send the "call" for killer lymphocytes to finish off the victim, these lymphocytes MAY cause more inflammation to the nearby tissue. They call this action "complement".

Hope that helps!

Val

More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!

[Guest guest]

,

Thanks! You gave me a much needed good laugh!

sol

wrote:

> Sounds good to me. English grammar: Me, You, Him, Her, It, Us, You, Them.

> I, You, He, She, It? Sbjct and Predicates are: They (sbjct) risk

> (predicate). What do they risk? " Getting Their Teeth Shoved Down Their

> Throats " . Hmm, sounds like proper English to me. Or you could say it in

> Spanish or French or any other language. Then the grammar would be

> different for that culture. Hehehe.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

We were talking about whether high amounts of TPOab denoted how much

destruction was going on. Some cells may have only a small amount of

peroxidase enzyme within them, therefore, massive destruction could

actually mean low TPOabs. Or perhaps a maybe few detroyed cells had

contained massive amounts of peroxidse - that would result in a very

high level of TPOab, but low levels of destruction. See how that

would cause confusion?

TPOabs don't harm the thyroid, except during complement exposures

when the various lymphocytes and other inflammatory immune cells join

together to destroy the *PEROXIDASE* antigen, but are too close to

thyroid cells and accidentally do damage there as well.

One other thing I see that is often misunderstood. 85% of all people

with Graves disease also have TPOabs. (my son and I included). My

TPOab is 800 while my son's TPOab count is 20,000. I'm on ATD with

TBII antibodies and he is in remission with normal thyroid function.

The number of Graves people with TPOabs is probably even higher

because some TPOabs remain only near the thyroid and don't travel in

the blood stream - so they don't get picked up during a blood test,

only during biopsy.

My theory is the TSH-Receptor antibodies we have are TOO CLOSE to

follicular cells - and related killer T Cells and other lymphocytes

damage thyroid cells due to proximity (via complement) - which in

turn, creates TPOabs.

But this all points out that you can't assume high TPOabs means high

levels of destruction. It *does* mean inflammation, but doesn't tell

us the quantity of cells that are being lost.

<<<<<the antibodies are formed because the immune system recognizes

the thyroid as antigen<<<<

The " thyroid " is not the antigen when talking about TPO antibodies.

For these antibodies, TPO is the antigen. TPO are the initials

for " thyroid peroxidase " , an enzyme that is found only within a

thyroid cell. The immune system won't ever see this enzyme unless

that cell has been broken via a *PREVIOUS* lymphocyte attack or

inflammation.

Once that happens, there is a circle effect - since complement causes

release of thyroid peroxidase, which creates the TPOabs, which then

brings on more complement...and on and on...

I once read about a woman who was strangled by her boyfriend. She

went into thyroid storm but also suddenly developed TPO antibodies -

but NOT because she had Hashimotos, but because her thyroid cells had

been damaged and peroxidase enzymes leaked out of them. Her immune

system noticed the leaked peroxidase (a substance that is considered

foreign to the blood) and sent antibodies to target that " foreign "

enzyme.

But this woman did not have any autoimmune disease. Some people with

cell-damaging cancer will also have TPOabs. Anyone who has suffered

trauma to the thyroid will probably end up with TPO antibodies too,

whether they have autoimmune disease or not. They often call TPOabs

and TGab " psuedo-autoantibodies " , because they indeed are doing a job

that is needed; The immune system sending antibodies to clean up the

peroxidase is not a malfunction. But the other lymphocytes that harm

the *actual* thyroid cells is where the malfunction lies.

To get back to the original topic - the *COUNT* of TPOabs does not

necessarily mean there is more destruction happening to the thyroid

gland. Biopsy or RAIU uptake is the only way to know for sure how

many cells are being killed by the killer lymphocytes and the

complement inflammation that follows.

My personal opinion is that there are yet more antibodies that have

yet to be identified; antibodies that TRULY target thyroid follicular

cells as their antigen. A friend who is a thyroid disease

researcher/professor at the Univ of Chicago also feels this way - if

true, that would explain why killer lymphocytes are doing direct

damage to those cells.

Interesting stuff!

Val

>

> Yes, it's a big technical error, on my part and many others, and it

is simply a very technical thing, but you are wrong about the

destruction of the thyroid gland itself. Yes, the antibodies are

formed because the immune system recognizes the thyroid as antigen,

and yes, the T lymphs are the ones that go after the

mistaken " antigen " , on account of the coined term " antibody-

mediated " . It is the antibodies that are the markers for the

destruction that has been/is going on, BUT the follicular cells of

the thyroid ARE involved, that is the nature of Hashi's. There are

pictures online of our destroyed glands, and it ain't pretty.

>

>

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashimoto%27s_thyroiditis

>

> It is only " technically " not true that antibodies actually are the

only destructive force, as all these parts of the immune system are

all connected to each other, T Lymphs included, since those latter

white cells do the most destruction in the process. They are all

part of the same action, one following the other, and the other

perpetuating the actions. The antibodies are very much a part of all

of this, in the destruction process, and one thing cannot be

disconnected with the other one, they initiate the action. Thus the

coining of the term " antibody-mediated " immune response. There is a

missing factor from those with autoimmune processes, it has a name

for this substance, and I can't remember the name of it right now,

but it is what " conveys " to the immune system that something

is " friendly " or " foe " . Well, it's just not there any more, but we

still don't know ALL the reasons why, that are unique to a particular

individual.

>

> http://www.thyroidmanager.org/Chapter8/chapter8.html#id2475184

>

>

http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Thyroid

_conditions_hashimoto_disease?OpenDocument

>

> http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic949.htm

>

> http://www.postgradmed.com/issues/2000/01_00/fatourechi.htm

>

>

>

>

> Re: My anti body level is over 3000

>

>

> Hi ,

>

> I think you may have read that lymphocytes attack the thyroid,

not the antibodies. Antibodies bind to antigens - they don't have a

way to attack. Once they bind to the target, they call on other

lymphocytes to come destroy the antigen.

>

> TRab antibodies (Graves antibodies) are actually binding to the

thyroid receptor cells where they interfere with thyroid production.

>

> But Hashi's antibodies don't bind to ANY part of the thyroid.

They bind to Peroxidase that is loose in the blood (an enzyme) as

well as a substance called thyroglobuin (that is loose int he blood

stream). The reason these chemicals are loose in the blood stream is

because killer lymphocytes have broken thyroid cells. So these

antibodies are " MARKERS " for inflammation --- they are a signal that

there has been thyroid destruction.

>

> Aside from that, these antibodies MAY CONTRIBUTE to inflammation,

but not directly. If these antibodies are TOO CLOSE to the thyroid

tissues when they bind to peroxidase/thyroglobulin, then, when they

send the " call " for killer lymphocytes to finish off the victim,

these lymphocytes MAY cause more inflammation to the nearby tissue.

They call this action " complement " .

>

> Hope that helps!

> Val

>