alpha intrusion

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Thanks, Pete, for your thoughtful replies. This has been very helpful. I agree that there are other issues that may not have fully surfaced for him. It would be nice to head some of them off if possible. By "slow alpha," are you suggesting I work some in the theta range (which shows the alpha shape), or should I leave that alone and focus on 8-10? Thanks again. Van Deusen wrote: , Yes, this does sound like alpha intrusion. Alpha bursts (which seem so endemic in this brain) actually occur during stages of sleep. Often these will be in the Delta sleep period, which can result in reduced release of human growth hormone (in younger clients) and eventually in chronic fatigue/chronic pain/fibromyalgia symptoms in older clients. It sometimes also intrudes into REM, so the client doesn't get enough REM sleep and wakes always feeling tired (not enough psychologically restorative sleep). Train down the alpha. Train it down with eyes closed.

Especially focus on training down the slow alpha. You might also try training alpha down and beta up (especially on the left and toward the front). Anything you can do to get his brain to use alpha more appropriately should have a positive effect on his sleep problems (and a bunch of other stuff he may not be complaining of). Pete On 8/2/07, <kneurotyk> wrote: Hi Pete, So far I've worked to bring down the hibeta at T3 and T4, and tried to raise the SMR at C4 (11-14 hz for him), as it came up low in the assessment. Considering his presenting complaint, those seemed like the best areas to

start with. He has shown some improvement in falling to sleep at a more reasonable hour (fortunately the family was willing to improve their sleep hygiene, albeit attempting to use me as the vicarious parent -- they tried neurofeedback before they tried setting a bedtime, teaching him to fall asleep on his own, or asking him to close his book at a pre-agreed time). He continues to wake a couple of times a night and often falls back to sleep easily, but sometimes wakes at 5 a.m. or so and can't go back to sleep. I don't think he's depressed. He will usually use that early time productively (reading, memorizing lines for a play). He actually shows the "alpha shape" through several frequencies, mostly the slow ones, including delta and theta at some sites. The percentage drop 8-10 is much sharper than at 6-8, though, so I'd expect there should to be some difference in the ratio. He and his dad both report waking and having difficulty returning to sleep; both deny anxiety or being kept awake by thoughts. I have heard of "alpha intrusions" and wonder if that might be part of the problem, and, if so, what to do about it? Thanks for your help. Van Deusen <pvdtlcgmail> wrote: , Alpha peak usually goes up at task--often with eyes open as well. Best just to look at it with EC. If the A/T ratio is running high with EO, the first question is whether you have "alpha" bleeding down into the 6-8 hz band (which you probably do with the low PF's you mention.) They are a bit

low for a 12-year-old. But if you are seeing the "alpha shape" in the 6-8 Hz and the 8-10 Hz bands, then the ratios become problematic, since alpha is being included in part of the measurement of alpha (8-12 Hz) and part of the measurement for theta (4-8 Hz). That can cause the ratio to stay high with eyes open, since both alpha and theta drop about the same amount. The attention and sleep issues could certainly be related to the hot temporals (if you are confident that they are not artifact). It is very likely related to the slowing of the alpha. The high T/B ratios also suggest a slowing, which could be related to the wakening during the night (depending on what you mean by that). If he wakes up several times during the night but goes back to sleep, then slow activity may well be involved. Does he awaken feeling rested, or is he difficult to rouse in the morning? If you mean he wakes and can't fall back

to sleep, then that is likely anxiety related. Of course SMR would be a thing to test if sleep onset is a problem as well. Pete On 8/1/07, <kneurotyk > wrote: Pete, A/T is over 1.0 at C3, C4, P4, and FZ, eyes open. Alpha PF is kind of low -- 8.46 EC at F3, up to 9.62 T4 task. His T/B ratios are higher than expected all over, except at the temporals (where beta PF is higher than expected in all conditions and on both sides). Thanks for your input. Van Deusen <pvdtlcgmail> wrote: , What is the alpha/theta ratio with eyes open? If you go to the histograms page and turn off the eyes closed and task bars, is alpha still clearly the dominant frequency band? If it is, and if the A/T ratios are at or above 1 with EO or at task, it's a problem, no matter how well it blocks. If the ratio of alpha/theta is above 3 in the back of the head (assuming the alpha is pretty well confined to 8-12 Hz) or 2.5 in the front with eyes closed, it's probably a problem. Pete On 7/31/07, <kneurotyk > wrote: , Would you say this is a problem even if the towering alpha blocks nicely eyes open? I'm working with a child whose primary complaint is delayed sleep onset, and some waking through the night; father has the same problems. The EC alpha predominates all over the head. It's over 25 microvolts at C3 & C4, and between 45 - 50 at P3 & P4. The child (12 y.o.) also has hot temps so he may be experiencing, but not necessarily interpreting (and definitely not reporting) anxiety. Thanks for any more light you can shed. " St. Clair" <mastclairsbcglobal (DOT) net> wrote: Roland, you mention a "huge Peak"...are we talking over 25 microvolts? If so, this is more of a problem of having too much alpha...."alpha towers" (looking at the histogram) or "alpha head"...this can be a real problem for attention, sleep onset, and anxiety. It is often hereditary. It may be a problem with the cortex being able to block the alpha produced in the sub cortex. It's pretty stubborn to train down. Re: very high alpha peakfrequency Hi Pete, thanks for your response. The peak frequency is high all over the brain, also at the back, it's with eyes closed. It's definitely a peak, a hugge peak actually. I drops when eyes are opened. Greetings, Roland

Verment. Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. -- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. -- Van Deusen pvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. -- Van Deusen pvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.

[Guest guest]

I'd inhibit whatever goes up with eyes closed and drops with eyes open. Certainly the 6-10 range.

Pete

Thanks, Pete, for your thoughtful replies. This has been very helpful. I agree that there are other issues that may not have fully surfaced for him. It would be nice to head some of them off if possible.

By " slow alpha, " are you suggesting I work some in the theta range (which shows the alpha shape), or should I leave that alone and focus on 8-10?

Thanks again.

Van Deusen wrote:

,

Yes, this does sound like alpha intrusion. Alpha bursts (which seem so endemic in this brain) actually occur during stages of sleep. Often these will be in the Delta sleep period, which can result in reduced release of human growth hormone (in younger clients) and eventually in chronic fatigue/chronic pain/fibromyalgia symptoms in older clients. It sometimes also intrudes into REM, so the client doesn't get enough REM sleep and wakes always feeling tired (not enough psychologically restorative sleep).

Train down the alpha. Train it down with eyes closed. Especially focus on training down the slow alpha. You might also try training alpha down and beta up (especially on the left and toward the front). Anything you can do to get his brain to use alpha more appropriately should have a positive effect on his sleep problems (and a bunch of other stuff he may not be complaining of).

Pete

On 8/2/07, <kneurotyk@...

> wrote:

Hi Pete,

So far I've worked to bring down the hibeta at T3 and T4, and tried to raise the SMR at C4 (11-14 hz for him), as it came up low in the assessment. Considering his presenting complaint, those seemed like the best areas to start with. He has shown some improvement in falling to sleep at a more reasonable hour (fortunately the family was willing to improve their sleep hygiene, albeit attempting to use me as the vicarious parent -- they tried neurofeedback before they tried setting a bedtime, teaching him to fall asleep on his own, or asking him to close his book at a pre-agreed time). He continues to wake a couple of times a night and often falls back to sleep easily, but sometimes wakes at 5 a.m. or so and can't go back to sleep. I don't think he's depressed. He will usually use that early time productively (reading, memorizing lines for a play).

He actually shows the " alpha shape " through several frequencies, mostly the slow ones, including delta and theta at some sites. The percentage drop 8-10 is much sharper than at 6-8, though, so I'd expect there should to be some difference in the ratio.

He and his dad both report waking and having difficulty returning to sleep; both deny anxiety or being kept awake by thoughts. I have heard of " alpha intrusions " and wonder if that might be part of the problem, and, if so, what to do about it?

Thanks for your help.

Van Deusen wrote:

,

Alpha peak usually goes up at task--often with eyes open as well. Best just to look at it with EC.

If the A/T ratio is running high with EO, the first question is whether you have " alpha " bleeding down into the 6-8 hz band (which you probably do with the low PF's you mention.) They are a bit low for a 12-year-old. But if you are seeing the " alpha shape " in the 6-8 Hz and the 8-10 Hz bands, then the ratios become problematic, since alpha is being included in part of the measurement of alpha (8-12 Hz) and part of the measurement for theta (4-8 Hz). That can cause the ratio to stay high with eyes open, since both alpha and theta drop about the same amount.

The attention and sleep issues could certainly be related to the hot temporals (if you are confident that they are not artifact). It is very likely related to the slowing of the alpha. The high T/B ratios also suggest a slowing, which could be related to the wakening during the night (depending on what you mean by that). If he wakes up several times during the night but goes back to sleep, then slow activity may well be involved. Does he awaken feeling rested, or is he difficult to rouse in the morning? If you mean he wakes and can't fall back to sleep, then that is likely anxiety related.

Of course SMR would be a thing to test if sleep onset is a problem as well.

Pete

On 8/1/07, <kneurotyk@...

> wrote:

Pete,

A/T is over 1.0 at C3, C4, P4, and FZ, eyes open. Alpha PF is kind of low -- 8.46 EC at F3, up to 9.62 T4 task. His T/B ratios are higher than expected all over, except at the temporals (where beta PF is higher than expected in all conditions and on both sides).

Thanks for your input.

Van Deusen wrote:

,

What is the alpha/theta ratio with eyes open? If you go to the histograms page and turn off the eyes closed and task bars, is alpha still clearly the dominant frequency band? If it is, and if the A/T ratios are at or above 1 with EO or at task, it's a problem, no matter how well it blocks. If the ratio of alpha/theta is above 3 in the back of the head (assuming the alpha is pretty well confined to 8-12 Hz) or 2.5 in the front with eyes closed, it's probably a problem.

Pete

On 7/31/07, <kneurotyk@...

> wrote:

,

Would you say this is a problem even if the towering alpha blocks nicely eyes open? I'm working with a child whose primary complaint is delayed sleep onset, and some waking through the night; father has the same problems. The EC alpha predominates all over the head. It's over 25 microvolts at C3 & C4, and between 45 - 50 at P3 & P4. The child (12 y.o.) also has hot temps so he may be experiencing, but not necessarily interpreting (and definitely not reporting) anxiety.

Thanks for any more light you can shed.

" St. Clair " wrote:

Roland,

you mention a " huge Peak " ...are we talking over 25 microvolts?

If so, this is more of a problem of having too much alpha.... " alpha towers " (looking at the histogram) or " alpha head " ...this can be a real problem for attention, sleep onset, and anxiety.

It is often hereditary.

It may be a problem with the cortex being able to block the alpha produced in the sub cortex.

It's pretty stubborn to train down.

Re: very high alpha peakfrequency

Hi Pete, thanks for your response. The peak frequency is high all over the brain, also at the back, it's with eyes closed. It's definitely a peak, a hugge peak actually. I drops when eyes are opened. Greetings, Roland Verment.

Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

-- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

Looking for a deal?

Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.

-- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting

gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.

-- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.

-- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.