Re: Organizational Issues in ADHD

[Guest guest]

,

What a great question! Yes, there are lots of us Menninger trained psychophysiologic therapists out here doing psychophysiologic therapy (biofeedback training with psychotherapy including neurofeedback). (I could relate to your description of the dynamic contributors to the oppositional behavior seen in ADHD.) However, this group and many in the field of "operant conditioning of neurophysiologic behavior" seem to be less interested in exploring the dynamic interrelatedness of mental, emotional and physiologic processes.

Reminds me of a current client who did a course of neurofeedback for anger and depression in California. He came to Topeka and found himself falling into a similar pattern of feeling tremendous amounts of anger, etc. (We could ask "Who wouldn't be angry if they got transfered from California to Topeka?") In any event, he entered treatment saying he was hopeful because of his previous experience with neurofeedback (symptom based cookbook protocols), but "skeptical, because it didn't last." Whenever I mentioned the importance of including a discussion of issues that might be surrounding the anger (patterns?), he'd say, "I don't want to talk about my family."

Not long after that, I suggested that he read Don Ruiz' books, The 4 Agreements and The Voice of Knowledge. He quickly became interested in the impact of his thoughts on his habitual stance of anger and his nearly constant feelings of frustration. Recently he came into my office and proclaimed with a sense of real self-discovery, insight, and determination to change his life, "I can get mad about anything!!" He seems to have discovered that he could make choices about how his limbic system responds to frustrating situations. "Somebody could cut me off in the morning as I'm driving to work, and I'd still be stewing about it at 3:30 in the afternoon." Now he says, "So they cut me off, they're a jerk, but its there problem, not mine - - I'm not going to let it be my problem to live with" (paraphrase). It is the opportunity to share such moments of insight and discovery with other human beings that makes my work so rewarding...

I work from a psychophysiologic self-awareness model using a skills based approach (peripheral temp. biofeedback, diaphragmatic breathing training, Heart Rate Variability biofeedback, EMG biofeedback, and neurofeedback (HEG & EEG). I have found Pete Van Deusen's TLC model to be very helpful as a way to integrate a neurophysiologic understanding into a skills based training program. But the on-line groups that I am aware of seem to be somewhat reserved about embracing a skills based self-awareness model. Please, maybe others will prove me wrong on this.

Any others out there who want to chime in?

, welcome to the group.

Parks

Topeka, KS

-----Original Message-----From: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ]On Behalf Of gary martinSent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 10:21 PMTo: braintrainer Subject: RE: Organizational Issues in ADHD

As a psychiatrist/psychoanalyst who is a novice in this field of NFB, I'm very curious about the possibility of making a distinction between the source of two symptoms rather than seeing them as both part of the same problem. In this case for instance, maybe the ADHD problem of getting around to and doing homework responds to NFB, and the not turning in the homework does not respond to the NFB because it is oppositionalism that is motivated by unconscious impulses like anger and masochism that are the result of having had to live for years with a biologically-based problem like ADHD. Sometimes we forget that, like the young man described below, living for years with an untreated, biologically-based disorder has profound psychological consequences--like poor self-esteem, resentment, wishes to make others feel as impotent as they have felt, and then guilt about those unacceptable impulses, resulting in masochistic behaviors like oppositionalism ("I got you by not handing in that paper you worked so hard to help me with, but then I suffer the punishment of getting a poor grade so my guilt is expiated.").

Do many of the NFB practitioners who contribute to this site couple NFB training with psychotherapy--in an effort to capture both the EEG expressed manifestations of a biologically-based disorder (ADHD in this case) and the psychological expression of unconscious feeling-motivated behaviors (oppositionalism in this case)? Or do most NFB practitioners use training in hopes of changing all the symptoms their patients/clients present with?

From: "carlastives" <carlastives>Reply-To: braintrainer To: braintrainer Subject: Organizational Issues in ADHDDate: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:37:41 -0000

Has anyone experienced improvements in the area of organization?My som has adhd and mild signs of dyslexia and dyspraxia.Despite his apparent improved concentration at school after 30 NF sessions he is still experiencing great difficulty with organisational issues. He still does not get on with his homework without a great deal of nagging.His procrastination over most things is still an enormous problem. Even when he has done the assignment and done it well he almost always forgets to hand it in to the teachers so he gets into trouble anyway and loses marks all the time this way. He says he can concentrate and be relaxed at the same time in class and is generally a bit calmer at home and less oppositional but can I expect to see improvement in his tendency to procrastinate and his organisational skills generally?

[Guest guest]

,

What a great question! Yes, there are lots of us Menninger trained psychophysiologic therapists out here doing psychophysiologic therapy (biofeedback training with psychotherapy including neurofeedback). (I could relate to your description of the dynamic contributors to the oppositional behavior seen in ADHD.) However, this group and many in the field of "operant conditioning of neurophysiologic behavior" seem to be less interested in exploring the dynamic interrelatedness of mental, emotional and physiologic processes.

Reminds me of a current client who did a course of neurofeedback for anger and depression in California. He came to Topeka and found himself falling into a similar pattern of feeling tremendous amounts of anger, etc. (We could ask "Who wouldn't be angry if they got transfered from California to Topeka?") In any event, he entered treatment saying he was hopeful because of his previous experience with neurofeedback (symptom based cookbook protocols), but "skeptical, because it didn't last." Whenever I mentioned the importance of including a discussion of issues that might be surrounding the anger (patterns?), he'd say, "I don't want to talk about my family."

Not long after that, I suggested that he read Don Ruiz' books, The 4 Agreements and The Voice of Knowledge. He quickly became interested in the impact of his thoughts on his habitual stance of anger and his nearly constant feelings of frustration. Recently he came into my office and proclaimed with a sense of real self-discovery, insight, and determination to change his life, "I can get mad about anything!!" He seems to have discovered that he could make choices about how his limbic system responds to frustrating situations. "Somebody could cut me off in the morning as I'm driving to work, and I'd still be stewing about it at 3:30 in the afternoon." Now he says, "So they cut me off, they're a jerk, but its there problem, not mine - - I'm not going to let it be my problem to live with" (paraphrase). It is the opportunity to share such moments of insight and discovery with other human beings that makes my work so rewarding...

I work from a psychophysiologic self-awareness model using a skills based approach (peripheral temp. biofeedback, diaphragmatic breathing training, Heart Rate Variability biofeedback, EMG biofeedback, and neurofeedback (HEG & EEG). I have found Pete Van Deusen's TLC model to be very helpful as a way to integrate a neurophysiologic understanding into a skills based training program. But the on-line groups that I am aware of seem to be somewhat reserved about embracing a skills based self-awareness model. Please, maybe others will prove me wrong on this.

Any others out there who want to chime in?

, welcome to the group.

Parks

Topeka, KS

-----Original Message-----From: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ]On Behalf Of gary martinSent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 10:21 PMTo: braintrainer Subject: RE: Organizational Issues in ADHD

As a psychiatrist/psychoanalyst who is a novice in this field of NFB, I'm very curious about the possibility of making a distinction between the source of two symptoms rather than seeing them as both part of the same problem. In this case for instance, maybe the ADHD problem of getting around to and doing homework responds to NFB, and the not turning in the homework does not respond to the NFB because it is oppositionalism that is motivated by unconscious impulses like anger and masochism that are the result of having had to live for years with a biologically-based problem like ADHD. Sometimes we forget that, like the young man described below, living for years with an untreated, biologically-based disorder has profound psychological consequences--like poor self-esteem, resentment, wishes to make others feel as impotent as they have felt, and then guilt about those unacceptable impulses, resulting in masochistic behaviors like oppositionalism ("I got you by not handing in that paper you worked so hard to help me with, but then I suffer the punishment of getting a poor grade so my guilt is expiated.").

Do many of the NFB practitioners who contribute to this site couple NFB training with psychotherapy--in an effort to capture both the EEG expressed manifestations of a biologically-based disorder (ADHD in this case) and the psychological expression of unconscious feeling-motivated behaviors (oppositionalism in this case)? Or do most NFB practitioners use training in hopes of changing all the symptoms their patients/clients present with?

From: "carlastives" <carlastives>Reply-To: braintrainer To: braintrainer Subject: Organizational Issues in ADHDDate: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:37:41 -0000

Has anyone experienced improvements in the area of organization?My som has adhd and mild signs of dyslexia and dyspraxia.Despite his apparent improved concentration at school after 30 NF sessions he is still experiencing great difficulty with organisational issues. He still does not get on with his homework without a great deal of nagging.His procrastination over most things is still an enormous problem. Even when he has done the assignment and done it well he almost always forgets to hand it in to the teachers so he gets into trouble anyway and loses marks all the time this way. He says he can concentrate and be relaxed at the same time in class and is generally a bit calmer at home and less oppositional but can I expect to see improvement in his tendency to procrastinate and his organisational skills generally?

[Guest guest]

I definitely agree that it is probably naive to expect that anything

and everything can be changed by NF without taking into account the

secondary impact of living with ADHD.In my child's case I hadn't

considered that the not turning homework in was oppositional

behaviour because he discusses it so rationally.I know that he feels

very privaleged to be at this particular school and he knows that his

behaviour is jeapardising his chances of remaining there. He seems to

me to be simply chronically forgetful, the typical ADHD living in the

moment thing, being unaware of the need to plan even where it seems

it would not be difficult to remember and the consequences will be

negative, therefore still an ADHD symptom.(I hadn't even considered

that oppositional behaviour could be driven by unconscious

motivation). He has always been very forgetful usually forgetting to

bring virtually anything needed or expected in any situation and

relying a great deal on prompting from adults.I am still hoping that

we can resolve his issues ultimately with NF but if not do you think

that NF protocols /strategies aimed more at resolving trauma/PTSD

would be worth considering if such unconsciously motivated secondary

symptoms (if that is what they are) remained unchanged?

Carla

From: braintrainer

[mailto:braintrainer ]On

> Behalf Of gary martin

> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 10:21 PM

> To: braintrainer

> Subject: RE: Organizational Issues in ADHD

>

>

> As a psychiatrist/psychoanalyst who is a novice in this field of

NFB, I'm

> very curious about the possibility of making a distinction between

the

> source of two symptoms rather than seeing them as both part of the

same

> problem. In this case for instance, maybe the ADHD problem of

getting around

> to and doing homework responds to NFB, and the not turning in the

homework

> does not respond to the NFB because it is oppositionalism that is

motivated

> by unconscious impulses like anger and masochism that are the

result of

> having had to live for years with a biologically-based problem like

ADHD.

> Sometimes we forget that, like the young man described below,

living for

> years with an untreated, biologically-based disorder has profound

> psychological consequences--like poor self-esteem, resentment,

wishes to

> make others feel as impotent as they have felt, and then guilt

about those

> unacceptable impulses, resulting in masochistic behaviors like

> oppositionalism ( " I got you by not handing in that paper you worked

so hard

> to help me with, but then I suffer the punishment of getting a poor

grade so

> my guilt is expiated. " ).

>

> Do many of the NFB practitioners who contribute to this site

couple NFB

> training with psychotherapy--in an effort to capture both the EEG

expressed

> manifestations of a biologically-based disorder (ADHD in this case)

and the

> psychological expression of unconscious feeling-motivated behaviors

> (oppositionalism in this case)? Or do most NFB practitioners use

training in

> hopes of changing all the symptoms their patients/clients present

with?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I definitely agree that it is probably naive to expect that anything

and everything can be changed by NF without taking into account the

secondary impact of living with ADHD.In my child's case I hadn't

considered that the not turning homework in was oppositional

behaviour because he discusses it so rationally.I know that he feels

very privaleged to be at this particular school and he knows that his

behaviour is jeapardising his chances of remaining there. He seems to

me to be simply chronically forgetful, the typical ADHD living in the

moment thing, being unaware of the need to plan even where it seems

it would not be difficult to remember and the consequences will be

negative, therefore still an ADHD symptom.(I hadn't even considered

that oppositional behaviour could be driven by unconscious

motivation). He has always been very forgetful usually forgetting to

bring virtually anything needed or expected in any situation and

relying a great deal on prompting from adults.I am still hoping that

we can resolve his issues ultimately with NF but if not do you think

that NF protocols /strategies aimed more at resolving trauma/PTSD

would be worth considering if such unconsciously motivated secondary

symptoms (if that is what they are) remained unchanged?

Carla

From: braintrainer

[mailto:braintrainer ]On

> Behalf Of gary martin

> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 10:21 PM

> To: braintrainer

> Subject: RE: Organizational Issues in ADHD

>

>

> As a psychiatrist/psychoanalyst who is a novice in this field of

NFB, I'm

> very curious about the possibility of making a distinction between

the

> source of two symptoms rather than seeing them as both part of the

same

> problem. In this case for instance, maybe the ADHD problem of

getting around

> to and doing homework responds to NFB, and the not turning in the

homework

> does not respond to the NFB because it is oppositionalism that is

motivated

> by unconscious impulses like anger and masochism that are the

result of

> having had to live for years with a biologically-based problem like

ADHD.

> Sometimes we forget that, like the young man described below,

living for

> years with an untreated, biologically-based disorder has profound

> psychological consequences--like poor self-esteem, resentment,

wishes to

> make others feel as impotent as they have felt, and then guilt

about those

> unacceptable impulses, resulting in masochistic behaviors like

> oppositionalism ( " I got you by not handing in that paper you worked

so hard

> to help me with, but then I suffer the punishment of getting a poor

grade so

> my guilt is expiated. " ).

>

> Do many of the NFB practitioners who contribute to this site

couple NFB

> training with psychotherapy--in an effort to capture both the EEG

expressed

> manifestations of a biologically-based disorder (ADHD in this case)

and the

> psychological expression of unconscious feeling-motivated behaviors

> (oppositionalism in this case)? Or do most NFB practitioners use

training in

> hopes of changing all the symptoms their patients/clients present

with?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I too have always seen this as a classic ADHD symptom. Just that I

hadn't considered the possibility of it being unconsciously motivated

oppositional behaviour until I read 's post. Of course I am

hoping that this is not the case and I can ultimately help him to get

it under control through neurofeedback and possibly HEG. (Not least

because treating it looks a lot more complex, more subjective and

therefore potentially ineffective otherwise).

>

> Carla~

> I don't doubt that there are some who are oppositional, but

forgetfulness and being unorganized (loosing and forgetting home

work) is a typical symptom of ADHD and slow wave brain patterns. The

suggestion that the forgetfulness or being unorganized is an

oppositional behavior could be quite damaging to some who are truly

trying to succeed.

> Most kids do not want to loose or forget their home work and get

zeros, loose their favorite coat, phone or DS game etc.... Their

lack of organization and forgetfulness is a constant struggle and can

be a major source of stress on the family and themselves.

> Like Pete mentioned HEG can be very effective and a wonderful

addition to EEG training. Each person is different so it would be

hard to say how many sessions your son would need.

> ~

> RE: Organizational Issues in ADHD

> >

> >

> > As a psychiatrist/psychoanalyst who is a novice in this field

of

> NFB, I'm

> > very curious about the possibility of making a distinction

between

> the

> > source of two symptoms rather than seeing them as both part of

the

> same

> > problem. In this case for instance, maybe the ADHD problem of

> getting around

> > to and doing homework responds to NFB, and the not turning in

the

> homework

> > does not respond to the NFB because it is oppositionalism that

is

> motivated

> > by unconscious impulses like anger and masochism that are the

> result of

> > having had to live for years with a biologically-based problem

like

> ADHD.

> > Sometimes we forget that, like the young man described below,

> living for

> > years with an untreated, biologically-based disorder has

profound

> > psychological consequences--like poor self-esteem, resentment,

> wishes to

> > make others feel as impotent as they have felt, and then guilt

> about those

> > unacceptable impulses, resulting in masochistic behaviors like

> > oppositionalism ( " I got you by not handing in that paper you

worked

> so hard

> > to help me with, but then I suffer the punishment of getting a

poor

> grade so

> > my guilt is expiated. " ).

> >

> > Do many of the NFB practitioners who contribute to this site

> couple NFB

> > training with psychotherapy--in an effort to capture both the

EEG

> expressed

> > manifestations of a biologically-based disorder (ADHD in this

case)

> and the

> > psychological expression of unconscious feeling-motivated

behaviors

> > (oppositionalism in this case)? Or do most NFB practitioners

use

> training in

> > hopes of changing all the symptoms their patients/clients

present

> with?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I too have always seen this as a classic ADHD symptom. Just that I

hadn't considered the possibility of it being unconsciously motivated

oppositional behaviour until I read 's post. Of course I am

hoping that this is not the case and I can ultimately help him to get

it under control through neurofeedback and possibly HEG. (Not least

because treating it looks a lot more complex, more subjective and

therefore potentially ineffective otherwise).

>

> Carla~

> I don't doubt that there are some who are oppositional, but

forgetfulness and being unorganized (loosing and forgetting home

work) is a typical symptom of ADHD and slow wave brain patterns. The

suggestion that the forgetfulness or being unorganized is an

oppositional behavior could be quite damaging to some who are truly

trying to succeed.

> Most kids do not want to loose or forget their home work and get

zeros, loose their favorite coat, phone or DS game etc.... Their

lack of organization and forgetfulness is a constant struggle and can

be a major source of stress on the family and themselves.

> Like Pete mentioned HEG can be very effective and a wonderful

addition to EEG training. Each person is different so it would be

hard to say how many sessions your son would need.

> ~

> RE: Organizational Issues in ADHD

> >

> >

> > As a psychiatrist/psychoanalyst who is a novice in this field

of

> NFB, I'm

> > very curious about the possibility of making a distinction

between

> the

> > source of two symptoms rather than seeing them as both part of

the

> same

> > problem. In this case for instance, maybe the ADHD problem of

> getting around

> > to and doing homework responds to NFB, and the not turning in

the

> homework

> > does not respond to the NFB because it is oppositionalism that

is

> motivated

> > by unconscious impulses like anger and masochism that are the

> result of

> > having had to live for years with a biologically-based problem

like

> ADHD.

> > Sometimes we forget that, like the young man described below,

> living for

> > years with an untreated, biologically-based disorder has

profound

> > psychological consequences--like poor self-esteem, resentment,

> wishes to

> > make others feel as impotent as they have felt, and then guilt

> about those

> > unacceptable impulses, resulting in masochistic behaviors like

> > oppositionalism ( " I got you by not handing in that paper you

worked

> so hard

> > to help me with, but then I suffer the punishment of getting a

poor

> grade so

> > my guilt is expiated. " ).

> >

> > Do many of the NFB practitioners who contribute to this site

> couple NFB

> > training with psychotherapy--in an effort to capture both the

EEG

> expressed

> > manifestations of a biologically-based disorder (ADHD in this

case)

> and the

> > psychological expression of unconscious feeling-motivated

behaviors

> > (oppositionalism in this case)? Or do most NFB practitioners

use

> training in

> > hopes of changing all the symptoms their patients/clients

present

> with?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I am very new at this, and look forward to 's reply. However, NF really does treat the unconscious. As a therapist we look at the "unconscious motivations or secondary gains." However, my understanding of the working of the brain would lead me to believe that many of those behaviors can actually be the result of the brain patterns of the person. In the several months that I have been assisting with NF I have heard children say they can attend to their homework more, can remember to turn it in, and are calmer. To me, that speaks volumns. , or other experienced clinicians, please speak to this.gary martin wrote: As a psychiatrist/psychoanalyst who is a novice in this field of NFB, I'm very curious about the possibility of making a distinction between the source of two symptoms rather than seeing them as both part of the same problem. In this case for instance, maybe the ADHD problem of getting around to and doing homework responds to NFB, and the not turning in the homework does not respond to the NFB because it is oppositionalism that is motivated by unconscious impulses like anger and masochism that are the result of having had to live for years with a biologically-based problem like ADHD. Sometimes we forget that, like the young man described below, living for years with an untreated, biologically-based disorder has profound psychological

consequences--like poor self-esteem, resentment, wishes to make others feel as impotent as they have felt, and then guilt about those unacceptable impulses, resulting in masochistic behaviors like oppositionalism ("I got you by not handing in that paper you worked so hard to help me with, but then I suffer the punishment of getting a poor grade so my guilt is expiated."). Do many of the NFB practitioners who contribute to this site couple NFB training with psychotherapy--in an effort to capture both the EEG expressed manifestations of a biologically-based disorder (ADHD in this case) and the psychological expression of unconscious feeling-motivated behaviors (oppositionalism in this case)? Or do most NFB practitioners use training in hopes of changing all the symptoms their patients/clients present with? From: "carlastives" <carlastives>Reply-To: braintrainer To: braintrainer Subject: Organizational Issues in ADHDDate: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:37:41 -0000 Has anyone experienced improvements in the area of organization?My som has adhd and mild signs of dyslexia and dyspraxia.Despite his apparent improved concentration at school after 30 NF sessions he is still experiencing great difficulty with organisational issues. He still does not get on with his homework without a great deal of nagging.His procrastination over most things is still an enormous problem. Even when he has done the assignment and done it well he almost always forgets to hand it in to the teachers so he gets into trouble

anyway and loses marks all the time this way. He says he can concentrate and be relaxed at the same time in class and is generally a bit calmer at home and less oppositional but can I expect to see improvement in his tendency to procrastinate and his organisational skills generally?

[Guest guest]

I am very new at this, and look forward to 's reply. However, NF really does treat the unconscious. As a therapist we look at the "unconscious motivations or secondary gains." However, my understanding of the working of the brain would lead me to believe that many of those behaviors can actually be the result of the brain patterns of the person. In the several months that I have been assisting with NF I have heard children say they can attend to their homework more, can remember to turn it in, and are calmer. To me, that speaks volumns. , or other experienced clinicians, please speak to this.gary martin wrote: As a psychiatrist/psychoanalyst who is a novice in this field of NFB, I'm very curious about the possibility of making a distinction between the source of two symptoms rather than seeing them as both part of the same problem. In this case for instance, maybe the ADHD problem of getting around to and doing homework responds to NFB, and the not turning in the homework does not respond to the NFB because it is oppositionalism that is motivated by unconscious impulses like anger and masochism that are the result of having had to live for years with a biologically-based problem like ADHD. Sometimes we forget that, like the young man described below, living for years with an untreated, biologically-based disorder has profound psychological

consequences--like poor self-esteem, resentment, wishes to make others feel as impotent as they have felt, and then guilt about those unacceptable impulses, resulting in masochistic behaviors like oppositionalism ("I got you by not handing in that paper you worked so hard to help me with, but then I suffer the punishment of getting a poor grade so my guilt is expiated."). Do many of the NFB practitioners who contribute to this site couple NFB training with psychotherapy--in an effort to capture both the EEG expressed manifestations of a biologically-based disorder (ADHD in this case) and the psychological expression of unconscious feeling-motivated behaviors (oppositionalism in this case)? Or do most NFB practitioners use training in hopes of changing all the symptoms their patients/clients present with? From: "carlastives" <carlastives>Reply-To: braintrainer To: braintrainer Subject: Organizational Issues in ADHDDate: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:37:41 -0000 Has anyone experienced improvements in the area of organization?My som has adhd and mild signs of dyslexia and dyspraxia.Despite his apparent improved concentration at school after 30 NF sessions he is still experiencing great difficulty with organisational issues. He still does not get on with his homework without a great deal of nagging.His procrastination over most things is still an enormous problem. Even when he has done the assignment and done it well he almost always forgets to hand it in to the teachers so he gets into trouble

anyway and loses marks all the time this way. He says he can concentrate and be relaxed at the same time in class and is generally a bit calmer at home and less oppositional but can I expect to see improvement in his tendency to procrastinate and his organisational skills generally?

[Guest guest]

OUR INTENT and the Intent of the person receiving the

treatment ...treats the unconscious.

You can use any modality and if the person giving it has negative intent

and/or the person receiving it does NOT want it to work. IT WILL

NOT WORK.

Diane

On 02/21/2007 8:59:04 AM, Marolyn Buckel (mitri_1@...) wrote:

> I am very new at this, and look forward to

> 's reply. However, NF really does treat the unconscious. As a

therapist we look at the " unconscious motivations or secondary

gains. " However, my understanding of the working of the brain would

lead me to believe that many of those behaviors can actually be the

result of the brain patterns of the person. In the several months that I

have been assisting with NF I have heard children say they can attend to

their homework more, can remember to turn it in, and are calmer. To me,

that speaks volumns.

>

> , or other experienced clinicians, please speak to this.

>

> gary martin wrote:

> As a psychiatrist/psychoanalyst who is a novice in this field of

NFB, I'm

> very curious about the possibility of making a distinction between

the

> source of two symptoms rather than seeing them as both part of the

same

> problem. In this case for instance, maybe the ADHD problem of

getting

> around to and doing homework responds to NFB, and the not turning in

the

> homework does not respond to the NFB because it is oppositionalism

that is

> motivated by unconscious impulses like anger and masochism that are

the

> result of having had to live for years with a biologically-based

problem

> like ADHD

Dr. Diane Stoler, Ed.D.

P.O. Box 148

town, MA 01833

Toll Free in US

Direct Dial

For information on how to obtain

" Coping with Mild Traumatic Brain Injury:

A Guide to Living with the Challenges Associated with Concussion/

Brain Injury "

Click the link below

<http://

www.drdiane.com

>

Neuroband:

For the Professional and Home User of

Neurofeedback equipment:

Clink the link below

http://www.drdiane.com/neuroband_order.html

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Dr. Diane ~

Catalyst for Change® - A neuropsychologist who works with

individuals and organizations worldwide, to help them find Solutions

and Resources® to overcome life’s challenges and reach their

goals.

[Guest guest]

OUR INTENT and the Intent of the person receiving the

treatment ...treats the unconscious.

You can use any modality and if the person giving it has negative intent

and/or the person receiving it does NOT want it to work. IT WILL

NOT WORK.

Diane

On 02/21/2007 8:59:04 AM, Marolyn Buckel (mitri_1@...) wrote:

> I am very new at this, and look forward to

> 's reply. However, NF really does treat the unconscious. As a

therapist we look at the " unconscious motivations or secondary

gains. " However, my understanding of the working of the brain would

lead me to believe that many of those behaviors can actually be the

result of the brain patterns of the person. In the several months that I

have been assisting with NF I have heard children say they can attend to

their homework more, can remember to turn it in, and are calmer. To me,

that speaks volumns.

>

> , or other experienced clinicians, please speak to this.

>

> gary martin wrote:

> As a psychiatrist/psychoanalyst who is a novice in this field of

NFB, I'm

> very curious about the possibility of making a distinction between

the

> source of two symptoms rather than seeing them as both part of the

same

> problem. In this case for instance, maybe the ADHD problem of

getting

> around to and doing homework responds to NFB, and the not turning in

the

> homework does not respond to the NFB because it is oppositionalism

that is

> motivated by unconscious impulses like anger and masochism that are

the

> result of having had to live for years with a biologically-based

problem

> like ADHD

Dr. Diane Stoler, Ed.D.

P.O. Box 148

town, MA 01833

Toll Free in US

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For information on how to obtain

" Coping with Mild Traumatic Brain Injury:

A Guide to Living with the Challenges Associated with Concussion/

Brain Injury "

Click the link below

<http://

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>

Neuroband:

For the Professional and Home User of

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Dr. Diane ~

Catalyst for Change® - A neuropsychologist who works with

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and Resources® to overcome life’s challenges and reach their

goals.

[Guest guest]

" My only suggestion to the parent whose son forgets to turn in the

work is to ask him if there is some type of reminder that he can use

to help himself remember. Like a note on the back of his hand in ink

or something. Or maybe you can ask each teacher to help him remember "

We already do notes/lists etc they are only minimally effective, if

at all. He is pretty embarassed these days by the scale of

his " forgetfulness " and has taken to telling lies to cover himself.

I do think schools could do more to understand the potentially

massive impact of poor organizational skills and to make

exceptions/use special measures where there is an obvious problem

rather than just using punative measures.Instead it seems that the

vast majority of teachers have little awareness that this is a

genuine problem for some kids let alone strategies to teach them to

accomodate the problem. Funny really, given that organizational

issues are so often a part of common 'learning disabilities' such as

Dyslexia, Dysgraphia as well as ADHD, and Asperger's.Even a

relatively mild disorganization problem can hold otherwise high

achieving kids back academically.

" about two years ago I did several sessions on myself of SMR training

at c3c4 and for the first time in my life I actually knew where

everything was. It was freaky! "

What exactly did you do ? How long each side and which

rewards/inhibits?? I would like to train myself as I too have an ADHD

brain and am fairly chronically disorganized.

> As a psychiatrist/psychoanalyst who is a novice in

this field of NFB, I'm very curious about the possibility of making a

distinction between the source of two symptoms rather than seeing

them as both part of the same problem. In this case for instance,

maybe the ADHD problem of getting around to and doing homework

responds to NFB, and the not turning in the homework does not respond

to the NFB because it is oppositionalism that is motivated by

unconscious impulses like anger and masochism that are the result of

having had to live for years with a biologically-based problem like

ADHD. Sometimes we forget that, like the young man described below,

living for years with an untreated, biologically-based disorder has

profound psychological consequences--like poor self-esteem,

resentment, wishes to make others feel as impotent as they have felt,

and then guilt about those unacceptable impulses, resulting in

masochistic behaviors like oppositionalism ( " I got you by

> not handing in that paper you worked so hard to help me with, but

then I suffer the punishment of getting a poor grade so my guilt is

expiated. " ).

> Do many of the NFB practitioners who contribute to this site

couple NFB training with psychotherapy--in an effort to capture both

the EEG expressed manifestations of a biologically-based disorder

(ADHD in this case) and the psychological expression of unconscious

feeling-motivated behaviors (oppositionalism in this case)? Or do

most NFB practitioners use training in hopes of changing all the

symptoms their patients/clients present with?

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

>

> Reply-To: braintrainer

> To: braintrainer

> Subject: Organizational Issues in ADHD

> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:37:41 -0000

>

> Has anyone experienced improvements in the area of

organization?

>

> My som has adhd and mild signs of dyslexia and dyspraxia.Despite

his

> apparent improved concentration at school after 30 NF sessions he

is

> still experiencing great difficulty with organisational issues. He

> still does not get on with his homework without a great deal of

> nagging.His procrastination over most things is still an enormous

> problem. Even when he has done the assignment and done it well he

> almost always forgets to hand it in to the teachers so he gets into

> trouble anyway and loses marks all the time this way. He says he

can

> concentrate and be relaxed at the same time in class and is

generally a

> bit calmer at home and less oppositional but can I expect to see

> improvement in his tendency to procrastinate and his organisational

> skills generally?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> TV dinner still cooling?

> Check out " Tonight's Picks " on Yahoo! TV.

>

[Guest guest]

Whilst the failing to hand in homework despite taking the trouble to

do it is what has the most serious consequences for him I don't think

his forgetfulness is that specific. He is also quite forgetful with

items of clothing often doesn't dress in appropriate clothing for

weather conditions in his preoccupation with going wherever, he has

completely 'lost' two winter coats at school this winter, leaves

swimming kits everywhere,loses equipment such as pencil cases and so

on.He recently spent almost a week carrying 10 heavy overdue library

books around with him intended to be returned to the school library.

Despite the considerable extra weight that might have served to

remind most people he continued carrying the bag to and from and

around with him at school for four days. When he returned home with

the books each day still in a bag that he could barely carry it was

easier to lie and say that the librarians weren't taking books back

today or the library was closed rather than acknowledge that he

simply hadn't done it because (I suspect) he feels so foolish and

embarassed, same with lying about why the homework doesn't get handed

in.Or maybe as you suggest if these behaviours are subconsciously

motivated he doesn't know why he didn't do it.Though I suspect that

being ADHD, mildly Dyslexic and mildly Dyspraxic has a great

deal to do with this. The dyspraxia means that his efficiency of

movement is compromised lack of coordination, sensory-

integration/proprioceptive issues, poor directional/spatial

awareness, mild motor-planning difficulties, multi-tasking and

sequencing issues etc mean that subtle difficulties simply getting

everything done that others do much more quickly and easily in the

busy school day(eg getting changed, moving around school, eating

lunch etc) may leave him with so little time for the more

pleasureable social aspects of school that he loves that it is some

sort of half genuinely forgetful/half-deliberate trade off.The lies

then are necessary not just because he is embarassed but because he

knows that his behaviour doesn't make sense to others particularly

adults.A coping strategy rather than oppositional disorganized

behaviour possibly.As I think about it I'm realising now that he is

mostly forgetful at school, scout camp, youth groups etc wherever he

is an environment with his all-important peers rather than at home

where he is fairly organised with his many hobbies and interests.

Thanks for your input this has really made me think about the

underlying psychological reasons for his behaviour in a way that I

normally wouldn't do in my preoccupation with trying to address the

underlying physical issues.On the other hand we should probably also

be revisiting movement-based therapies as well as thinking about

dyspraxia NF protocols.

(Sorry this is so long anyone else who has managed to get this

far!).

[Guest guest]

Yes Pete I am already acutely aware of this problem of living in his

internal world and not engaging with the outside as much as he should

or as others (teachers ) presume he can. His memory as such is not

bad ie tests of visual spatial memory and auditory memory show

well above average skills as you say is often the case.

Someone on this list suggested I get my son's teachers to take his

homework from him but attempts on their part to follow this through

have been very inconsistent on their part.I also have to be careful

as he so desperately doesn't want to be seen to be different by his

peers.Dealing with such issues by talking to most teachers is easier

in principle than in practice I find.Far too many teachers seem to

hang on to views about the need to treat all children equally rather

than take into account the ramifications of their special needs

issues in the wider context. Many have a difficult enough time

accepting that there is such a notion as ADD, Dyslexia, Aspergers etc

anyway without truly appreciating the fact that these 'symptoms' are

massively interconnected and overlapping usually and are indicative

of something more pervasive and fundemental than their concepts of

discrete conditions allow. Most of them in my experience once they

become aware of any apparent contradiction in the classic symptoms

of whatever the accepted label happens to be begin to question the

validity of the original diagnosis rather than appreciating more the

complexity of its manifestation and the limitations in their own

knowledge.It seems that many teachers, very much in the sense that

you describe,construct there own theory of why the kid is not meeting

expectations usually it boils down to simplistic notions observed in

the traumatic context of trying to teach with such a difficult

individual in the class.Often teachers draw their own conclusions

about what the crux of the matter is (eg Doesn't appear to listen

therefore has a listening problem,daydreams in class therefore has

an attention problem,impulsive/misbehaves therefore has a behaviour

problem,doesn't focus/produce much work therefore is lazy). Rarely is

it fully appreciated that the child is probably making a Herculean

effort compared with the majority, may be genuinely burnt out and

exhausted trying to cope. For some teachers the stress encountered

with trying to cope themselves with the child may mean that they

cannot help but associate negativity, guilt, anger etc with the child

making progress even more unlikely. Appreciation of the extent to

which subtle learning disabilities, masked by strengths, are hidden

from view often resulting in as much, if not more of a challenge than

those with an obvious disability is another ongoing problem I find.

I do think that it is critically important to understand the

developmental aspects of children such as my son.The internal focus

you describe is also I believe related to immature neurological

organisation such that the child's brain is stuck in much more

immature patterns of responding to the environment. When you still

have subtle /hidden difficulties coping with the demands of gravity

(eg righting your body in order to remain fully upright) and

integrating your senses (eg making eye-contact with the teacher

whilst also listening to her criticisms) engaging fully with the

outside world is always going to be tricky.How well can Neuro-

feedback address this I wonder? Are you saying that too much dominant

slow processing/dysregulation is the underlying cause of all these

problems?.Even if it was, addressing the " abnormalities " through NF

alone however individually determined couldn't relieve him of many of

his secondary issues could it?.

Being a fully participating member of his peer group would be

important I guess for any child especially a teen. I believe I may

have seriously underestimated the impact of having to cope daily with

physical coordination/sensory/motor issues upon normal functioning.

In my son's case his attempt to form friendships over his earlier

years were extremely problematic and a source of huge distress. With

help he has learnt to address some of the factors that made this

difficult. His previous school had him isolated much of the time and

for many years even as his behavioural issues improved with different

therapies and maturity it became impossible to live down his

reputation(eg even if another child wanted to invite him over to

play the mother often wouldn't allow it by this stage) and yet he is

an exceptionally sociable person. Since beginning his new school a

few months ago he has been very determined to make friends and has

actually succeeded this time not only in making some friends but is

actually freinds with some of the most popular high achieving

children in the school.

" Be careful about deciding " why " he is doing or not doing

something. The danger is that YOU then create your own internal

reality " him " and begin acting as if that were the real person "

When the obvious explanations don't account very well for

the behaviour isn't it better to try to understand by considering the

issues from various perspectives rather than just accepting it as

something inexplicable? So long as you are aware that it's only

another working hypothesis which may or may not prove fruitful what's

the problem?.In his case the need for social relations and peer

acceptance and reconciling his difficulties especially the dyspraxia

type issues is possibly paramount in trying to understand things and

I had overlooked this.

He desperately wants to become a lawyer and undoubtedly has the

innate intellectual ability but for obvious reasons may not achieve

this.In a situation like ours its easy for everyone concerned to

become overly preoccupied with how his issues interfere with the

realisation of his academic potential but if I actually think about

him I know that whilst he is motivated somewhat by this ambition he

is utterly driven by the ambition to be accepted more fully by his

peer group.I have always known this but didn't relate it to the

apparent " forgetfulness " until now. As the Pediatric OT points out

Dyspraxia, ADHD and Dyslexia is a tremendously challenging combo.

For him I believe he is doing his very best to cope and yet it is not

good enough as far as the adults in his life are concerned. Many

simple issues that most of us take for granted and do efficiently and

automatically eg finding your way from one part of a building to

another in a reasonable amount of time, eating a meal, changing

clothes quickly and doing these things more slowly than others,must

intrude on his limited socialising time at school so something had to

give.(This may explain the fact that recently he has also taken to

eating very little of his lunch despite normally being highly

motivated by food).Repeatedly " forgetting " to give in homework,

return library books,losing belongings because in the real world for

him there just isn't enough time to do those things and have his

place in the all important peer group.Even when he has done the

homework exceptionally well, and then lied about why he had not given

it in, this may on balance be the best compromise, the lessor price

to pay and not nearly as illogical for a bright child as it seems on

the surface.

> >

> > Whilst the failing to hand in homework despite taking the

trouble to

> > do it is what has the most serious consequences for him I don't

think

> > his forgetfulness is that specific. He is also quite forgetful

with

> > items of clothing often doesn't dress in appropriate clothing for

> > weather conditions in his preoccupation with going wherever, he

has

> > completely 'lost' two winter coats at school this winter, leaves

> > swimming kits everywhere,loses equipment such as pencil cases and

so

> > on.He recently spent almost a week carrying 10 heavy overdue

library

> > books around with him intended to be returned to the school

library.

> > Despite the considerable extra weight that might have served to

> > remind most people he continued carrying the bag to and from and

> > around with him at school for four days. When he returned home

with

> > the books each day still in a bag that he could barely carry it

was

> > easier to lie and say that the librarians weren't taking books

back

> > today or the library was closed rather than acknowledge that he

> > simply hadn't done it because (I suspect) he feels so foolish and

> > embarassed, same with lying about why the homework doesn't get

handed

> > in.Or maybe as you suggest if these behaviours are subconsciously

> > motivated he doesn't know why he didn't do it.Though I suspect

that

> > being ADHD, mildly Dyslexic and mildly Dyspraxic has a great

> > deal to do with this. The dyspraxia means that his efficiency of

> > movement is compromised lack of coordination, sensory-

> > integration/proprioceptive issues, poor directional/spatial

> > awareness, mild motor-planning difficulties, multi-tasking and

> > sequencing issues etc mean that subtle difficulties simply getting

> > everything done that others do much more quickly and easily in the

> > busy school day(eg getting changed, moving around school, eating

> > lunch etc) may leave him with so little time for the more

> > pleasureable social aspects of school that he loves that it is

some

> > sort of half genuinely forgetful/half-deliberate trade off.The

lies

> > then are necessary not just because he is embarassed but because

he

> > knows that his behaviour doesn't make sense to others particularly

> > adults.A coping strategy rather than oppositional disorganized

> > behaviour possibly.As I think about it I'm realising now that he

is

> > mostly forgetful at school, scout camp, youth groups etc wherever

he

> > is an environment with his all-important peers rather than at home

> > where he is fairly organised with his many hobbies and interests.

> > Thanks for your input this has really made me think about the

> > underlying psychological reasons for his behaviour in a way that I

> > normally wouldn't do in my preoccupation with trying to address

the

> > underlying physical issues.On the other hand we should probably

also

> > be revisiting movement-based therapies as well as thinking about

> > dyspraxia NF protocols.

> > (Sorry this is so long anyone else who has managed to get this

> > far!).

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> Van Deusen

> pvdtlc@...

> http://www.brain-trainer.com

> 305/433-3160

> The Learning Curve, Inc.

>

[Guest guest]

" 1) he is not doing this willfully and 2) The strict approach we were

using (losing all sorts of privledges for what we believed to be poor

behavioralchoices) was really compounding the problem by stressing us

all out "

Exactly. We know that punishments/loss of privaleges are not the most

appropriate way of dealing with something that is often a coping

strategy or cannot be helped. But what's a school to do when such

strategies are all it knows and in any case even if it were to be

more accomodating and flexible the teenage child would rather just

fit in than be given special treatment.

Have you found that the NF was effective with the writing/dysgraphia

issue? Are there any specific protocols to help with handwriting I

wonder? Did it improve his speed of writing and legibility at all?.

Thanks for the book reference

>

> We have a very similar situation with our 9 yr old. He lives in

his own

> world and is unorganized and very slow to get things done. He can

read a

> 500 page book in two days, but writing a simple paragraph is a

painful

> and long experience. We have been using NFB training successfully

at

> home, and he is doing much better this year. The homework is

actually

> getting done AND for the most part making it back to school.

>

> One resource you may want to consider is a book called " Dreamers,

> Discoverers and Dynamos " by Dr. Lucy Jo Palladino (

> www.fearlessfocus.com ). //This same book also is released under

the

> title " The Edison Trait " . I first read it two years ago, and for

me

> this book was an absolute turning point in understanding how to

deal

> with my son. After reading it my husband and I were really able to

> understand and internalize a few key things, including 1) he is not

> doing this willfully and 2) The strict approach we were using

(losing

> all sorts of privledges for what we believed to be poor behavioral

> choices) was really compounding the problem by stressing us all

out.

> Whenever the issues are at their worst and, I still reach for this

book,

> as it has good practical advice for understanding the situation

from his

> perspective.

>

> -Theresa

>