Re: Seroyal available OTC

[Guest guest]

,

I agree with your concerns and I also worked for Pharmaca at one time when in school and for a short while thereafter. In addition to your concerns about the products being available OTC they are also available online through websites that offer discounts as well. I haven't found a company yet that cannot be purchased online, even the companies that claim to prohibit this such as Vital Nutrients and Thorne. It is quite frustrating. I carry products strictly for patient convenience and to know that they are getting the products that I prescribe as I prescribe them. The problem is that they eitehr find them cheaper through some website or try to find a comparable product cheaper. It's frustrating because our companies call themselves "professional lines" or "physician lines" and they are simply not that. They are just after making a buck like the rest. I think we just have to take issue with our

companies and be very loud about it. They need to know that they are losing money by supporting these other sources because they sell in bulk at discounted prices, etc.. If they continue to do this, then we will stop stocking their products and they will definitely lose good business. Why should I carry a product that people will find for a lower price online? Then it sits on my shelf losng value.

I find this incredibly frustrating too. I do depend on my product sales for income I have to admit. I mean I spend lots of time with patients (compared to an MD) and don't charge nearly as much as they do and have just as much in student loans to pay off so the retail end of it is helpful but we need the support of our companies.

Kim E. Saxe, ND www.milwaukeenaturopathic.com "Study nature, love nature, stay close to nature. It will never fail you." ~ lloyd

Family Practice Clinic11803 W. North Ave.Wauwatosa, WI 53226Ph:

Fax:

Subject: Seroyal available OTCTo: Date: Thursday, August 14, 2008, 1:13 PM

I just had a patient return to my clinic claiming to have purchasedHMF powder OTC at Pharmaca. I called both Pharmaca and Seroyal toconfirm this and lo and behold, it is true. This raises a lot ofconcern for me and I wanted to ask the group some questions, mostly tocheck in and make sure I am not over-reacting.- Many brands that we use (Pure, Thorne, Vitanica, Eclectic,HerbPharm, Ayush, Vital Nutrients, Phytopharmaca, Standard Process,Metagenics, etc, etc.) are available OTC wherever there areNaturopaths on staff. Aside from the fact that these ND's are gettingpaid $13 and hour to stock shelves and do product consultations (andyes, I did work for awhile doing this just out of school), it makes meweary that what I sell in my office is available OTC to anyone whowants it. What sets the medicines I use aside from Jarrow and SourceNaturals? or Tylenol or Tums for that matter? It seems to

denigratewhat I do - why go to a Naturopath when you can walk into a pharmacyand pick up whatever they would have given you anyways? I try to stockmy medicinary with products that are not available OTC in an attemptto stand apart and Seroyal was one of the brands I chose for thatreason (and the excellent product quality, etc). Yet, now they too areavailable over the counter.- When these brands are sold OTC, do we risk loosing product integrityand quality?- I had another patient come back in for a follow-up telling me theychose a different probiotic than the HMF because it was on the shelfnext to it, at half the price. Yet another ND sent a patient into oneof these 'integrative pharmacies' with a specific prescription, onlyto find the staff people suggested a different product and sold thatone to the patient instead. We spend so much time educating about whycertain supplements are

needed, about product quality, etc and noweven more time has to be spent going over it again and again? (can youfeel the hair standing up on my neck?)So, what are your thoughts and experiences with this? Is thissomething I just need to accept because it is not really that big of adeal? Can we change this by voicing our concerns to the companies?Looking forward to your opinions, experiences and suggestions, KorzaSan Francisco/Berkeley, CA

[Guest guest]

Totally "shocked".  The results most often seen with HMF products are so stellar that it enthuses people to give the time for their other issues to change.  Interesting that it is both palliates (very quickly) and addresses the terrain over a longer period of time --  in one fell swoop.   I just noticed yesterday that Seroyal seemed to be increasing their own marketing, as I was placing an order with Emerson and because I forgot to order pumpkin seed oil asked if anyone made a pumpkin see capsule  -- and they said they were starting to stock Genestra.I hear that Unda Numbers are available in pharmacies in Canada - and I think Portland too?  I'm wondering how the people in Portland view this?  I guess our philosophy, our service of education, and client/patient support are going to become ever more important in setting us apart.  It is disappointing though., San Ramon, CA  94583I just had a patient return to my clinic claiming to have purchasedHMF powder OTC at Pharmaca. I called both Pharmaca and Seroyal toconfirm this and lo and behold, it is true. This raises a lot ofconcern for me and I wanted to ask the group some questions, mostly tocheck in and make sure I am not over-reacting.- Many brands that we use (Pure, Thorne, Vitanica, Eclectic,HerbPharm, Ayush, Vital Nutrients, Phytopharmaca, Standard Process,Metagenics, etc, etc.) are available OTC wherever there areNaturopaths on staff. Aside from the fact that these ND's are gettingpaid $13 and hour to stock shelves and do product consultations (andyes, I did work for awhile doing this just out of school), it makes meweary that what I sell in my office is available OTC to anyone whowants it. What sets the medicines I use aside from Jarrow and SourceNaturals? or Tylenol or Tums for that matter? It seems to denigratewhat I do - why go to a Naturopath when you can walk into a pharmacyand pick up whatever they would have given you anyways? I try to stockmy medicinary with products that are not available OTC in an attemptto stand apart and Seroyal was one of the brands I chose for thatreason (and the excellent product quality, etc). Yet, now they too areavailable over the counter.- When these brands are sold OTC, do we risk loosing product integrityand quality?- I had another patient come back in for a follow-up telling me theychose a different probiotic than the HMF because it was on the shelfnext to it, at half the price. Yet another ND sent a patient into oneof these 'integrative pharmacies' with a specific prescription, onlyto find the staff people suggested a different product and sold thatone to the patient instead. We spend so much time educating about whycertain supplements are needed, about product quality, etc and noweven more time has to be spent going over it again and again? (can youfeel the hair standing up on my neck?)So, what are your thoughts and experiences with this? Is thissomething I just need to accept because it is not really that big of adeal? Can we change this by voicing our concerns to the companies?Looking forward to your opinions, experiences and suggestions, KorzaSan Francisco/Berkeley, CA

[Guest guest]

As to this discussion-I have had it for years, now.

Thorne, for some time now, makes any website with their products have member passwords to get in, so that it appears harder to get. And it is a little harder. But throne can't do more than that and any pharmacist can order it as well as a practitioner. This tactic at least cut out the internet dispensaries who sold at 10% above wholesale. So if you would like to help the integrity of Thorne products and you find a website openly selling Thorne all you need do is email Thorne and they will advise the website seller.

It has been a great concern to me that any naturopathic physician would risk their license by working in a store and giving advice to the general public about supplements. Where is the malpractice concern? It is just a matter of time before some terrible lawsuit happens. The only thing protecting us from malpractice is our charting and Signed treatment agreement. Hopefully all of you have the patient sign that they have disclosed all their medicinal information to you so you can make 'safe' decisions for their care. Trust me on this, people complain all the time about practitioners who did not 'fix' them and charged them money!!! Wow, talk about personal responsibility for care....

Back to the supplement issue. I talked with the President of Allergy Research about this a few weeks ago. (It helps to be a past state President sometimes) He said there have been lawsuits back to the supplement companies for 'restricting trade' by controlling price and market. That is his reasoning as to why AR is not restricting price or distribution if you qualify as a wholesale customer. However, asking around, I have not found any company admitting to getting a suit.

This issue is very frustrating and a great concern. UNDAs are far less available than other things. That is good.

Whittaker

Gen practice

Stanwood, WA

Seroyal available OTC

I just had a patient return to my clinic claiming to have purchasedHMF powder OTC at Pharmaca. I called both Pharmaca and Seroyal toconfirm this and lo and behold, it is true. This raises a lot ofconcern for me and I wanted to ask the group some questions, mostly tocheck in and make sure I am not over-reacting.- Many brands that we use (Pure, Thorne, Vitanica, Eclectic,HerbPharm, Ayush, Vital Nutrients, Phytopharmaca, Standard Process,Metagenics, etc, etc.) are available OTC wherever there areNaturopaths on staff. Aside from the fact that these ND's are gettingpaid $13 and hour to stock shelves and do product consultations (andyes, I did work for awhile doing this just out of school), it makes meweary that what I sell in my office is available OTC to anyone whowants it. What sets the medicines I use aside from Jarrow and SourceNaturals? or Tylenol or Tums for that matter? It seems to denigratewhat I do - why go to a Naturopath when you can walk into a pharmacyand pick up whatever they would have given you anyways? I try to stockmy medicinary with products that are not available OTC in an attemptto stand apart and Seroyal was one of the brands I chose for thatreason (and the excellent product quality, etc). Yet, now they too areavailable over the counter.- When these brands are sold OTC, do we risk loosing product integrityand quality?- I had another patient come back in for a follow-up telling me theychose a different probiotic than the HMF because it was on the shelfnext to it, at half the price. Yet another ND sent a patient into oneof these 'integrative pharmacies' with a specific prescription, onlyto find the staff people suggested a different product and sold thatone to the patient instead. We spend so much time educating about whycertain supplements are needed, about product quality, etc and noweven more time has to be spent going over it again and again? (can youfeel the hair standing up on my neck?)So, what are your thoughts and experiences with this? Is thissomething I just need to accept because it is not really that big of adeal? Can we change this by voicing our concerns to the companies?Looking forward to your opinions, experiences and suggestions, KorzaSan Francisco/Berkeley, CA

[Guest guest]

would you mind putting a copy of

the form you have patients sign regarding their disclosure of medicinal

information on this site? Thanks,

Janet

Janet Hague, LAc, MA, LMT

Acupuncture Wellness, LLC

3939 MLK Jr. BLVD

Suite 203

Portland, OR 97212

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From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Whittaker, ND

Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 6:50 AM

To:

Subject: Re: Seroyal

available OTC

As to this discussion-I have had it

for years, now.

Thorne, for some time now,

makes any website with their products have member passwords to get in, so that

it appears harder to get. And it is a little harder. But throne can't do

more than that and any pharmacist can order it as well as a practitioner. This

tactic at least cut out the internet dispensaries who sold at 10% above

wholesale. So if you would like to help the integrity of Thorne products and

you find a website openly selling Thorne all you need do is email Thorne and

they will advise the website seller.

It has been a great concern to me

that any naturopathic physician would risk their license by working in a store

and giving advice to the general public about supplements. Where is the

malpractice concern? It is just a matter of time before some terrible

lawsuit happens. The only thing protecting us from malpractice is our charting

and Signed treatment agreement. Hopefully all of you have the patient sign that

they have disclosed all their medicinal information to you so you can make

'safe' decisions for their care. Trust me on this, people complain all the time

about practitioners who did not 'fix' them and charged them money!!! Wow, talk

about personal responsibility for care....

Back to the supplement issue. I

talked with the President of Allergy Research about this a few

weeks ago. (It helps to be a past state President sometimes) He said there have

been lawsuits back to the supplement companies for 'restricting trade' by

controlling price and market. That is his reasoning as to why AR is

not restricting price or distribution if you qualify as a wholesale

customer. However, asking around, I have not found any company admitting to

getting a suit.

This issue is very frustrating

and a great concern. UNDAs are far less available than other things. That is

good.

Whittaker

Gen practice

Stanwood, WA

Seroyal available OTC

I just had a patient return to my clinic claiming to have purchased

HMF powder OTC at Pharmaca. I called both Pharmaca and Seroyal to

confirm this and lo and behold, it is true. This raises a lot of

concern for me and I wanted to ask the group some questions, mostly to

check in and make sure I am not over-reacting.

- Many brands that we use (Pure, Thorne, Vitanica, Eclectic,

HerbPharm, Ayush, Vital Nutrients, Phytopharmaca, Standard Process,

Metagenics, etc, etc.) are available OTC wherever there are

Naturopaths on staff. Aside from the fact that these ND's are getting

paid $13 and hour to stock shelves and do product consultations (and

yes, I did work for awhile doing this just out of school), it makes me

weary that what I sell in my office is available OTC to anyone who

wants it. What sets the medicines I use aside from Jarrow and Source

Naturals? or Tylenol or Tums for that matter? It seems to denigrate

what I do - why go to a Naturopath when you can walk into a pharmacy

and pick up whatever they would have given you anyways? I try to stock

my medicinary with products that are not available OTC in an attempt

to stand apart and Seroyal was one of the brands I chose for that

reason (and the excellent product quality, etc). Yet, now they too are

available over the counter.

- When these brands are sold OTC, do we risk loosing product integrity

and quality?

- I had another patient come back in for a follow-up telling me they

chose a different probiotic than the HMF because it was on the shelf

next to it, at half the price. Yet another ND sent a patient into one

of these 'integrative pharmacies' with a specific prescription, only

to find the staff people suggested a different product and sold that

one to the patient instead. We spend so much time educating about why

certain supplements are needed, about product quality, etc and now

even more time has to be spent going over it again and again? (can you

feel the hair standing up on my neck?)

So, what are your thoughts and experiences with this? Is this

something I just need to accept because it is not really that big of a

deal? Can we change this by voicing our concerns to the companies?

Looking forward to your opinions, experiences and suggestions,

Korza

San Francisco/Berkeley, CA

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[Guest guest]

I don't see a problem with seroyal or any other company going otc as long their commitment to quality control remains the same. the effectiveness of the product should stand out despite the retail location.pharmacy staff suggesting a different treatment than prescribed... that's another story.jorge kaufmannportland, orI just had a patient return to my clinic claiming to have purchasedHMF powder OTC at Pharmaca. I called both Pharmaca and Seroyal toconfirm this and lo and behold, it is true. This raises a lot ofconcern for me and I wanted to ask the group some questions, mostly tocheck in and make sure I am not over-reacting.- Many brands that we use (Pure, Thorne, Vitanica, Eclectic,HerbPharm, Ayush, Vital Nutrients, Phytopharmaca, Standard Process,Metagenics, etc, etc.) are available OTC wherever there areNaturopaths on staff. Aside from the fact that these ND's are gettingpaid $13 and hour to stock shelves and do product consultations (andyes, I did work for awhile doing this just out of school), it makes meweary that what I sell in my office is available OTC to anyone whowants it. What sets the medicines I use aside from Jarrow and SourceNaturals? or Tylenol or Tums for that matter? It seems to denigratewhat I do - why go to a Naturopath when you can walk into a pharmacyand pick up whatever they would have given you anyways? I try to stockmy medicinary with products that are not available OTC in an attemptto stand apart and Seroyal was one of the brands I chose for thatreason (and the excellent product quality, etc). Yet, now they too areavailable over the counter.- When these brands are sold OTC, do we risk loosing product integrityand quality?- I had another patient come back in for a follow-up telling me theychose a different probiotic than the HMF because it was on the shelfnext to it, at half the price. Yet another ND sent a patient into oneof these 'integrative pharmacies' with a specific prescription, onlyto find the staff people suggested a different product and sold thatone to the patient instead. We spend so much time educating about whycertain supplements are needed, about product quality, etc and noweven more time has to be spent going over it again and again? (can youfeel the hair standing up on my neck?)So, what are your thoughts and experiences with this? Is thissomething I just need to accept because it is not really that big of adeal? Can we change this by voicing our concerns to the companies?Looking forward to your opinions, experiences and suggestions, KorzaSan Francisco/Berkeley, CA