RE: Re: Organizational Issues in ADHD

[Guest guest]

Carla~

I don't doubt that there are some who are oppositional, but forgetfulness and being unorganized (loosing and forgetting home work) is a typical symptom of ADHD and slow wave brain patterns. The suggestion that the forgetfulness or being unorganized is an oppositional behavior could be quite damaging to some who are truly trying to succeed.

Most kids do not want to loose or forget their home work and get zeros, loose their favorite coat, phone or DS game etc.... Their lack of organization and forgetfulness is a constant struggle and can be a major source of stress on the family and themselves.

Like Pete mentioned HEG can be very effective and a wonderful addition to EEG training. Each person is different so it would be hard to say how many sessions your son would need.

~

RE: Organizational Issues in ADHD> > > As a psychiatrist/psychoanalyst who is a novice in this field of NFB, I'm> very curious about the possibility of making a distinction between the> source of two symptoms rather than seeing them as both part of the same> problem. In this case for instance, maybe the ADHD problem of getting around> to and doing homework responds to NFB, and the not turning in the homework> does not respond to the NFB because it is oppositionalism that is motivated> by unconscious impulses like anger and masochism that are the result of> having had to live for years with a biologically-based problem like ADHD.> Sometimes we forget that, like the young man described below, living for> years with an untreated, biologically-based disorder has profound> psychological consequences--like poor self-esteem, resentment, wishes to> make others feel as impotent as they have felt, and then guilt about those> unacceptable impulses, resulting in masochistic behaviors like> oppositionalism ("I got you by not handing in that paper you worked so hard> to help me with, but then I suffer the punishment of getting a poor grade so> my guilt is expiated.").> > Do many of the NFB practitioners who contribute to this site couple NFB> training with psychotherapy--in an effort to capture both the EEG expressed> manifestations of a biologically-based disorder (ADHD in this case) and the> psychological expression of unconscious feeling-motivated behaviors> (oppositionalism in this case)? Or do most NFB practitioners use training in> hopes of changing all the symptoms their patients/clients present with?> > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Carla~

I don't doubt that there are some who are oppositional, but forgetfulness and being unorganized (loosing and forgetting home work) is a typical symptom of ADHD and slow wave brain patterns. The suggestion that the forgetfulness or being unorganized is an oppositional behavior could be quite damaging to some who are truly trying to succeed.

Most kids do not want to loose or forget their home work and get zeros, loose their favorite coat, phone or DS game etc.... Their lack of organization and forgetfulness is a constant struggle and can be a major source of stress on the family and themselves.

Like Pete mentioned HEG can be very effective and a wonderful addition to EEG training. Each person is different so it would be hard to say how many sessions your son would need.

~

RE: Organizational Issues in ADHD> > > As a psychiatrist/psychoanalyst who is a novice in this field of NFB, I'm> very curious about the possibility of making a distinction between the> source of two symptoms rather than seeing them as both part of the same> problem. In this case for instance, maybe the ADHD problem of getting around> to and doing homework responds to NFB, and the not turning in the homework> does not respond to the NFB because it is oppositionalism that is motivated> by unconscious impulses like anger and masochism that are the result of> having had to live for years with a biologically-based problem like ADHD.> Sometimes we forget that, like the young man described below, living for> years with an untreated, biologically-based disorder has profound> psychological consequences--like poor self-esteem, resentment, wishes to> make others feel as impotent as they have felt, and then guilt about those> unacceptable impulses, resulting in masochistic behaviors like> oppositionalism ("I got you by not handing in that paper you worked so hard> to help me with, but then I suffer the punishment of getting a poor grade so> my guilt is expiated.").> > Do many of the NFB practitioners who contribute to this site couple NFB> training with psychotherapy--in an effort to capture both the EEG expressed> manifestations of a biologically-based disorder (ADHD in this case) and the> psychological expression of unconscious feeling-motivated behaviors> (oppositionalism in this case)? Or do most NFB practitioners use training in> hopes of changing all the symptoms their patients/clients present with?> > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

, I agree with you that sometimes a cigar -- forgetfulness -- is just a cigar. I work with kids who are oppositional and kids who have little volitional control over their attention and executive functions, and they do present pretty differently. I think a quick differential can be worked up if you, together with the child, devise a plan for "remembering" (the usual behavioral stuff, like wall charts, leaving an unzipped backpack in front of the door as a pnemonic to put the HW in before leaving the house, coordinating with the teacher to offer a quick reminder to turn HW in, etc.). The oppositional ones will sabotage even the planning, and certainly the execution, of such an approach, whereas the forgetful ones will be hopeful and, in the event of failure, sad. Duncan

wrote: Carla~ I don't doubt that there are some who are oppositional, but forgetfulness and being unorganized (loosing and forgetting home work) is a typical symptom of ADHD and slow wave brain patterns. The suggestion that the forgetfulness or being unorganized is an oppositional behavior could be quite damaging to some who are truly trying to succeed. Most kids do not

want to loose or forget their home work and get zeros, loose their favorite coat, phone or DS game etc.... Their lack of organization and forgetfulness is a constant struggle and can be a major source of stress on the family and themselves. Like Pete mentioned HEG can be very effective and a wonderful addition to EEG training. Each person is different so it would be hard to say how many sessions your son would need. ~ RE: Organizational Issues in ADHD> > > As a psychiatrist/psychoanalyst who is a novice in this field of NFB, I'm> very curious about the possibility of making a distinction between the> source of two symptoms rather than seeing them as both part of the same> problem. In this case for instance, maybe the ADHD problem of getting around> to and doing homework responds to NFB, and the not turning in the homework> does not respond to the NFB because it is oppositionalism that is motivated> by unconscious impulses like anger and masochism that are the result of> having had to live for years with a biologically-based problem like ADHD.> Sometimes we forget that, like the young man described below, living for> years with an

untreated, biologically-based disorder has profound> psychological consequences--like poor self-esteem, resentment, wishes to> make others feel as impotent as they have felt, and then guilt about those> unacceptable impulses, resulting in masochistic behaviors like> oppositionalism ("I got you by not handing in that paper you worked so hard> to help me with, but then I suffer the punishment of getting a poor grade so> my guilt is expiated.").> > Do many of the NFB practitioners who contribute to this site couple NFB> training with psychotherapy--in an effort to capture both the EEG expressed> manifestations of a biologically-based disorder (ADHD in this case) and the> psychological expression of unconscious feeling-motivated behaviors> (oppositionalism in this case)? Or do most NFB practitioners use training in> hopes of changing

all the symptoms their patients/clients present with?> > > > > > >

Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

[Guest guest]

, I agree with you that sometimes a cigar -- forgetfulness -- is just a cigar. I work with kids who are oppositional and kids who have little volitional control over their attention and executive functions, and they do present pretty differently. I think a quick differential can be worked up if you, together with the child, devise a plan for "remembering" (the usual behavioral stuff, like wall charts, leaving an unzipped backpack in front of the door as a pnemonic to put the HW in before leaving the house, coordinating with the teacher to offer a quick reminder to turn HW in, etc.). The oppositional ones will sabotage even the planning, and certainly the execution, of such an approach, whereas the forgetful ones will be hopeful and, in the event of failure, sad. Duncan

wrote: Carla~ I don't doubt that there are some who are oppositional, but forgetfulness and being unorganized (loosing and forgetting home work) is a typical symptom of ADHD and slow wave brain patterns. The suggestion that the forgetfulness or being unorganized is an oppositional behavior could be quite damaging to some who are truly trying to succeed. Most kids do not

want to loose or forget their home work and get zeros, loose their favorite coat, phone or DS game etc.... Their lack of organization and forgetfulness is a constant struggle and can be a major source of stress on the family and themselves. Like Pete mentioned HEG can be very effective and a wonderful addition to EEG training. Each person is different so it would be hard to say how many sessions your son would need. ~ RE: Organizational Issues in ADHD> > > As a psychiatrist/psychoanalyst who is a novice in this field of NFB, I'm> very curious about the possibility of making a distinction between the> source of two symptoms rather than seeing them as both part of the same> problem. In this case for instance, maybe the ADHD problem of getting around> to and doing homework responds to NFB, and the not turning in the homework> does not respond to the NFB because it is oppositionalism that is motivated> by unconscious impulses like anger and masochism that are the result of> having had to live for years with a biologically-based problem like ADHD.> Sometimes we forget that, like the young man described below, living for> years with an

untreated, biologically-based disorder has profound> psychological consequences--like poor self-esteem, resentment, wishes to> make others feel as impotent as they have felt, and then guilt about those> unacceptable impulses, resulting in masochistic behaviors like> oppositionalism ("I got you by not handing in that paper you worked so hard> to help me with, but then I suffer the punishment of getting a poor grade so> my guilt is expiated.").> > Do many of the NFB practitioners who contribute to this site couple NFB> training with psychotherapy--in an effort to capture both the EEG expressed> manifestations of a biologically-based disorder (ADHD in this case) and the> psychological expression of unconscious feeling-motivated behaviors> (oppositionalism in this case)? Or do most NFB practitioners use training in> hopes of changing

all the symptoms their patients/clients present with?> > > > > > >

Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

[Guest guest]

:

Change is hopefully a little easier for the therapist than the patient--the willingness to "marshall plan B" as you said is due to the therapists willingness to change, whether it's changing protocols or therapeutic approaches.

Onward we create!

Reply-To: braintrainer To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Re: Organizational Issues in ADHDDate: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:03:33 -0800 (PST)

,

One treatment modality can't possibly take care of all the probelms patients drag into our offices with them.

Truest thing I've heard all day! All week! Sometimes the hard part is marshalling everyone into Plan B when it's clear that Plan A isn't working out as planned, but as you put it so beautifully in your other post, there is an art to this stuff, and it's not always exact. Onward we (I) muddle!

gary martin <gcmartinmdmsn> wrote:

I think that's a great diagnostic distinction. Sometimes forgetfulness feels like oppositionalism because the parent's and the therapist's frustration gets attributed to the child. And sometimes oppositionalism is diagnosed as forgetfulness because the parents and the therapist are suppressing their own (diagnostic countertransference) reaction of annoyance. But the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If an intervention isn't working, either you need a different NF protocol, or another approach altogether. One treatment modality can't possibly take care of all the probelms patients drag into our offices with them.

From: <kneurotyk>Reply-To: braintrainer To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Re: Organizational Issues in ADHDDate: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 07:31:36 -0800 (PST)

,

I agree with you that sometimes a cigar -- forgetfulness -- is just a cigar.

I work with kids who are oppositional and kids who have little volitional control over their attention and executive functions, and they do present pretty differently. I think a quick differential can be worked up if you, together with the child, devise a plan for "remembering" (the usual behavioral stuff, like wall charts, leaving an unzipped backpack in front of the door as a pnemonic to put the HW in before leaving the house, coordinating with the teacher to offer a quick reminder to turn HW in, etc.). The oppositional ones will sabotage even the planning, and certainly the execution, of such an approach, whereas the forgetful ones will be hopeful and, in the event of failure, sad.

Duncan <karenduncancomcast (DOT) net> wrote:

Carla~

I don't doubt that there are some who are oppositional, but forgetfulness and being unorganized (loosing and forgetting home work) is a typical symptom of ADHD and slow wave brain patterns. The suggestion that the forgetfulness or being unorganized is an oppositional behavior could be quite damaging to some who are truly trying to succeed.

Most kids do not want to loose or forget their home work and get zeros, loose their favorite coat, phone or DS game etc.... Their lack of organization and forgetfulness is a constant struggle and can be a major source of stress on the family and themselves.

Like Pete mentioned HEG can be very effective and a wonderful addition to EEG training. Each person is different so it would be hard to say how many sessions your son would need.

~

RE: Organizational Issues in ADHD> > > As a psychiatrist/psychoanalyst who is a novice in this field of NFB, I'm> very curious about the possibility of making a distinction between the> source of two symptoms rather than seeing them as both part of the same> problem. In this case for instance, maybe the ADHD problem of getting around> to and doing homework responds to NFB, and the not turning in the homework> does not respond to the NFB because it is oppositionalism that is motivated> by unconscious impulses like anger and masochism that are the result of> having had to live for years with a biologically-based problem like ADHD.> Sometimes we forget that, like the young man described below, living for> years with an untreated, biologically-based disorder has profound> psychological consequences--like poor self-esteem, resentment, wishes to> make others feel as impotent as they have felt, and then guilt about those> unacceptable impulses, resulting in masochistic behaviors like> oppositionalism ("I got you by not handing in that paper you worked so hard> to help me with, but then I suffer the punishment of getting a poor grade so> my guilt is expiated.").> > Do many of the NFB practitioners who contribute to this site couple NFB> training with psychotherapy--in an effort to capture both the EEG expressed> manifestations of a biologically-based disorder (ADHD in this case) and the> psychological expression of unconscious feeling-motivated behaviors> (oppositionalism in this case)? Or do most NFB practitioners use training in> hopes of changing all the symptoms their patients/clients present with?> > > > > > >

Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

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[Guest guest]

:

Change is hopefully a little easier for the therapist than the patient--the willingness to "marshall plan B" as you said is due to the therapists willingness to change, whether it's changing protocols or therapeutic approaches.

Onward we create!

Reply-To: braintrainer To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Re: Organizational Issues in ADHDDate: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:03:33 -0800 (PST)

,

One treatment modality can't possibly take care of all the probelms patients drag into our offices with them.

Truest thing I've heard all day! All week! Sometimes the hard part is marshalling everyone into Plan B when it's clear that Plan A isn't working out as planned, but as you put it so beautifully in your other post, there is an art to this stuff, and it's not always exact. Onward we (I) muddle!

gary martin <gcmartinmdmsn> wrote:

I think that's a great diagnostic distinction. Sometimes forgetfulness feels like oppositionalism because the parent's and the therapist's frustration gets attributed to the child. And sometimes oppositionalism is diagnosed as forgetfulness because the parents and the therapist are suppressing their own (diagnostic countertransference) reaction of annoyance. But the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If an intervention isn't working, either you need a different NF protocol, or another approach altogether. One treatment modality can't possibly take care of all the probelms patients drag into our offices with them.

From: <kneurotyk>Reply-To: braintrainer To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Re: Organizational Issues in ADHDDate: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 07:31:36 -0800 (PST)

,

I agree with you that sometimes a cigar -- forgetfulness -- is just a cigar.

I work with kids who are oppositional and kids who have little volitional control over their attention and executive functions, and they do present pretty differently. I think a quick differential can be worked up if you, together with the child, devise a plan for "remembering" (the usual behavioral stuff, like wall charts, leaving an unzipped backpack in front of the door as a pnemonic to put the HW in before leaving the house, coordinating with the teacher to offer a quick reminder to turn HW in, etc.). The oppositional ones will sabotage even the planning, and certainly the execution, of such an approach, whereas the forgetful ones will be hopeful and, in the event of failure, sad.

Duncan <karenduncancomcast (DOT) net> wrote:

Carla~

I don't doubt that there are some who are oppositional, but forgetfulness and being unorganized (loosing and forgetting home work) is a typical symptom of ADHD and slow wave brain patterns. The suggestion that the forgetfulness or being unorganized is an oppositional behavior could be quite damaging to some who are truly trying to succeed.

Most kids do not want to loose or forget their home work and get zeros, loose their favorite coat, phone or DS game etc.... Their lack of organization and forgetfulness is a constant struggle and can be a major source of stress on the family and themselves.

Like Pete mentioned HEG can be very effective and a wonderful addition to EEG training. Each person is different so it would be hard to say how many sessions your son would need.

~

RE: Organizational Issues in ADHD> > > As a psychiatrist/psychoanalyst who is a novice in this field of NFB, I'm> very curious about the possibility of making a distinction between the> source of two symptoms rather than seeing them as both part of the same> problem. In this case for instance, maybe the ADHD problem of getting around> to and doing homework responds to NFB, and the not turning in the homework> does not respond to the NFB because it is oppositionalism that is motivated> by unconscious impulses like anger and masochism that are the result of> having had to live for years with a biologically-based problem like ADHD.> Sometimes we forget that, like the young man described below, living for> years with an untreated, biologically-based disorder has profound> psychological consequences--like poor self-esteem, resentment, wishes to> make others feel as impotent as they have felt, and then guilt about those> unacceptable impulses, resulting in masochistic behaviors like> oppositionalism ("I got you by not handing in that paper you worked so hard> to help me with, but then I suffer the punishment of getting a poor grade so> my guilt is expiated.").> > Do many of the NFB practitioners who contribute to this site couple NFB> training with psychotherapy--in an effort to capture both the EEG expressed> manifestations of a biologically-based disorder (ADHD in this case) and the> psychological expression of unconscious feeling-motivated behaviors> (oppositionalism in this case)? Or do most NFB practitioners use training in> hopes of changing all the symptoms their patients/clients present with?> > > > > > >

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[Guest guest]

I continue to follow your situation with great interest and am eager to hear what is the helpful outcome. I realize your question was not addressed to me, so please skip this response if you prefer.

When you say, "...he is pretty embarrassed these days by the scale of his forgetfulness and has taken to telling lies to cover the scale of his forgetfulness," it pains me to think of a young man that tormented by whatever is his disorder. I certainly hope someone gives you feedback that proves helpful.

I have a question about this forgetfulness. Does his forgetfulness involve other aspects of his life other than his school work, or is it just around matters like turning in his homework? I suppose ADHD can manifest itself as forgetting to turn in your homework, but that is such a specific forgetfulness it's hard to believe that it does not have some unconscious meaning to it. If that turns out to be the case, then he might be lying because he is embarrassed at being caught not having turned in his homework and not knowing why he didn't..Just a thought,

Reply-To: braintrainer To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Organizational Issues in ADHDDate: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 18:43:44 -0000

"My only suggestion to the parent whose son forgets to turn in the work is to ask him if there is some type of reminder that he can use to help himself remember. Like a note on the back of his hand in ink or something. Or maybe you can ask each teacher to help him remember"We already do notes/lists etc they are only minimally effective, if at all. He is pretty embarassed these days by the scale of his "forgetfulness" and has taken to telling lies to cover himself.I do think schools could do more to understand the potentially massive impact of poor organizational skills and to make exceptions/use special measures where there is an obvious problem rather than just using punative measures.Instead it seems that the vast majority of teachers have little awareness that this is a genuine problem for some kids let alone strategies to teach them to accomodate the problem. Funny really, given that organizational issues are so often a part of common 'learning disabilities' such as Dyslexia, Dysgraphia as well as ADHD, and Asperger's.Even a relatively mild disorganization problem can hold otherwise high achieving kids back academically."about two years ago I did several sessions on myself of SMR training at c3c4 and for the first time in my life I actually knew where everything was. It was freaky!"What exactly did you do ? How long each side and which rewards/inhibits?? I would like to train myself as I too have an ADHD brain and am fairly chronically disorganized.> As a psychiatrist/psychoanalyst who is a novice in this field of NFB, I'm very curious about the possibility of making a distinction between the source of two symptoms rather than seeing them as both part of the same problem. In this case for instance, maybe the ADHD problem of getting around to and doing homework responds to NFB, and the not turning in the homework does not respond to the NFB because it is oppositionalism that is motivated by unconscious impulses like anger and masochism that are the result of having had to live for years with a biologically-based problem like ADHD. Sometimes we forget that, like the young man described below, living for years with an untreated, biologically-based disorder has profound psychological consequences--like poor self-esteem, resentment, wishes to make others feel as impotent as they have felt, and then guilt about those unacceptable impulses, resulting in masochistic behaviors like oppositionalism ("I got you by> not handing in that paper you worked so hard to help me with, but then I suffer the punishment of getting a poor grade so my guilt is expiated.").> Do many of the NFB practitioners who contribute to this site couple NFB training with psychotherapy--in an effort to capture both the EEG expressed manifestations of a biologically-based disorder (ADHD in this case) and the psychological expression of unconscious feeling-motivated behaviors (oppositionalism in this case)? Or do most NFB practitioners use training in hopes of changing all the symptoms their patients/clients present with?> > > > > ---------------------------------> > Reply-To: braintrainer > To: braintrainer > Subject: Organizational Issues in ADHD> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:37:41 -0000> > Has anyone experienced improvements in the area of organization?> > My som has adhd and mild signs of dyslexia and dyspraxia.Despite his > apparent improved concentration at school after 30 NF sessions he is > still experiencing great difficulty with organisational issues. He > still does not get on with his homework without a great deal of > nagging.His procrastination over most things is still an enormous > problem. Even when he has done the assignment and done it well he > almost always forgets to hand it in to the teachers so he gets into > trouble anyway and loses marks all the time this way. He says he can > concentrate and be relaxed at the same time in class and is generally a > bit calmer at home and less oppositional but can I expect to see > improvement in his tendency to procrastinate and his organisational > skills generally? > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------> TV dinner still cooling?> Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.>

[Guest guest]

As a pediatric occupational therapist, I have seen all of the behaviors that

you listed in the patients that I have treated for the past 26 years.

Although, what can begin as a sensory sensitivity or sensory processing

disorder can become behavioral, I am inclined to think that in this case he

is not being " forgetful " to be manipulative or oppositional. Dyspraxia

combined with ADHD and dyslexia is a tremendous challenge. Being in various

environments or involved in activities that have not been modified to

provide structure and routine will likely contribute to being disorganized

and " forgetful " . These clients need rigid structure and extreme

predictability to be most successful. " Lying " could definitely be a coping

strategy for teens dealing with these difficulties. I think that addressing

the dyspraxia and attention deficit will be very beneficial.

Tammy M.

l

>

>Reply-To: braintrainer

>To: braintrainer

>Subject: Re: Organizational Issues in ADHD

>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 21:48:12 -0000

>

>Whilst the failing to hand in homework despite taking the trouble to

>do it is what has the most serious consequences for him I don't think

>his forgetfulness is that specific. He is also quite forgetful with

>items of clothing often doesn't dress in appropriate clothing for

>weather conditions in his preoccupation with going wherever, he has

>completely 'lost' two winter coats at school this winter, leaves

>swimming kits everywhere,loses equipment such as pencil cases and so

>on.He recently spent almost a week carrying 10 heavy overdue library

>books around with him intended to be returned to the school library.

>Despite the considerable extra weight that might have served to

>remind most people he continued carrying the bag to and from and

>around with him at school for four days. When he returned home with

>the books each day still in a bag that he could barely carry it was

>easier to lie and say that the librarians weren't taking books back

>today or the library was closed rather than acknowledge that he

>simply hadn't done it because (I suspect) he feels so foolish and

>embarassed, same with lying about why the homework doesn't get handed

>in.Or maybe as you suggest if these behaviours are subconsciously

>motivated he doesn't know why he didn't do it.Though I suspect that

>being ADHD, mildly Dyslexic and mildly Dyspraxic has a great

>deal to do with this. The dyspraxia means that his efficiency of

>movement is compromised lack of coordination, sensory-

>integration/proprioceptive issues, poor directional/spatial

>awareness, mild motor-planning difficulties, multi-tasking and

>sequencing issues etc mean that subtle difficulties simply getting

>everything done that others do much more quickly and easily in the

>busy school day(eg getting changed, moving around school, eating

>lunch etc) may leave him with so little time for the more

>pleasureable social aspects of school that he loves that it is some

>sort of half genuinely forgetful/half-deliberate trade off.The lies

>then are necessary not just because he is embarassed but because he

>knows that his behaviour doesn't make sense to others particularly

>adults.A coping strategy rather than oppositional disorganized

>behaviour possibly.As I think about it I'm realising now that he is

>mostly forgetful at school, scout camp, youth groups etc wherever he

>is an environment with his all-important peers rather than at home

>where he is fairly organised with his many hobbies and interests.

> Thanks for your input this has really made me think about the

>underlying psychological reasons for his behaviour in a way that I

>normally wouldn't do in my preoccupation with trying to address the

>underlying physical issues.On the other hand we should probably also

>be revisiting movement-based therapies as well as thinking about

>dyspraxia NF protocols.

>(Sorry this is so long anyone else who has managed to get this

>far!).

>

_________________________________________________________________

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https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035 & url=%2fst.jsp & tm=y & search=mor\

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[Guest guest]

As a pediatric occupational therapist, I have seen all of the behaviors that

you listed in the patients that I have treated for the past 26 years.

Although, what can begin as a sensory sensitivity or sensory processing

disorder can become behavioral, I am inclined to think that in this case he

is not being " forgetful " to be manipulative or oppositional. Dyspraxia

combined with ADHD and dyslexia is a tremendous challenge. Being in various

environments or involved in activities that have not been modified to

provide structure and routine will likely contribute to being disorganized

and " forgetful " . These clients need rigid structure and extreme

predictability to be most successful. " Lying " could definitely be a coping

strategy for teens dealing with these difficulties. I think that addressing

the dyspraxia and attention deficit will be very beneficial.

Tammy M.

l

>

>Reply-To: braintrainer

>To: braintrainer

>Subject: Re: Organizational Issues in ADHD

>Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 21:48:12 -0000

>

>Whilst the failing to hand in homework despite taking the trouble to

>do it is what has the most serious consequences for him I don't think

>his forgetfulness is that specific. He is also quite forgetful with

>items of clothing often doesn't dress in appropriate clothing for

>weather conditions in his preoccupation with going wherever, he has

>completely 'lost' two winter coats at school this winter, leaves

>swimming kits everywhere,loses equipment such as pencil cases and so

>on.He recently spent almost a week carrying 10 heavy overdue library

>books around with him intended to be returned to the school library.

>Despite the considerable extra weight that might have served to

>remind most people he continued carrying the bag to and from and

>around with him at school for four days. When he returned home with

>the books each day still in a bag that he could barely carry it was

>easier to lie and say that the librarians weren't taking books back

>today or the library was closed rather than acknowledge that he

>simply hadn't done it because (I suspect) he feels so foolish and

>embarassed, same with lying about why the homework doesn't get handed

>in.Or maybe as you suggest if these behaviours are subconsciously

>motivated he doesn't know why he didn't do it.Though I suspect that

>being ADHD, mildly Dyslexic and mildly Dyspraxic has a great

>deal to do with this. The dyspraxia means that his efficiency of

>movement is compromised lack of coordination, sensory-

>integration/proprioceptive issues, poor directional/spatial

>awareness, mild motor-planning difficulties, multi-tasking and

>sequencing issues etc mean that subtle difficulties simply getting

>everything done that others do much more quickly and easily in the

>busy school day(eg getting changed, moving around school, eating

>lunch etc) may leave him with so little time for the more

>pleasureable social aspects of school that he loves that it is some

>sort of half genuinely forgetful/half-deliberate trade off.The lies

>then are necessary not just because he is embarassed but because he

>knows that his behaviour doesn't make sense to others particularly

>adults.A coping strategy rather than oppositional disorganized

>behaviour possibly.As I think about it I'm realising now that he is

>mostly forgetful at school, scout camp, youth groups etc wherever he

>is an environment with his all-important peers rather than at home

>where he is fairly organised with his many hobbies and interests.

> Thanks for your input this has really made me think about the

>underlying psychological reasons for his behaviour in a way that I

>normally wouldn't do in my preoccupation with trying to address the

>underlying physical issues.On the other hand we should probably also

>be revisiting movement-based therapies as well as thinking about

>dyspraxia NF protocols.

>(Sorry this is so long anyone else who has managed to get this

>far!).

>

_________________________________________________________________

Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month.

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[Guest guest]

It might be worthwhile to ask your son's school for a Section 504 plan to help with remembering his homework. Given that he has several diagnosed conditions, it shouldn't be difficult to arrange to have each of his teacher's ask him for his homework each day that it's due.carlastives wrote: Whilst the failing to hand in homework despite taking the trouble to do it is what has the most serious consequences for him I don't think his forgetfulness is that specific. He is also quite forgetful

with items of clothing often doesn't dress in appropriate clothing for weather conditions in his preoccupation with going wherever, he has completely 'lost' two winter coats at school this winter, leaves swimming kits everywhere,loses equipment such as pencil cases and so on.He recently spent almost a week carrying 10 heavy overdue library books around with him intended to be returned to the school library. Despite the considerable extra weight that might have served to remind most people he continued carrying the bag to and from and around with him at school for four days. When he returned home with the books each day still in a bag that he could barely carry it was easier to lie and say that the librarians weren't taking books back today or the library was closed rather than acknowledge that he simply hadn't done it because (I suspect) he feels so foolish and embarassed, same with lying about why the homework

doesn't get handed in.Or maybe as you suggest if these behaviours are subconsciously motivated he doesn't know why he didn't do it.Though I suspect that being ADHD, mildly Dyslexic and mildly Dyspraxic has a great deal to do with this. The dyspraxia means that his efficiency of movement is compromised lack of coordination, sensory-integration/proprioceptive issues, poor directional/spatial awareness, mild motor-planning difficulties, multi-tasking and sequencing issues etc mean that subtle difficulties simply getting everything done that others do much more quickly and easily in the busy school day(eg getting changed, moving around school, eating lunch etc) may leave him with so little time for the more pleasureable social aspects of school that he loves that it is some sort of half genuinely forgetful/half-deliberate trade off.The lies then are necessary not just because he is embarassed but because he

knows that his behaviour doesn't make sense to others particularly adults.A coping strategy rather than oppositional disorganized behaviour possibly.As I think about it I'm realising now that he is mostly forgetful at school, scout camp, youth groups etc wherever he is an environment with his all-important peers rather than at home where he is fairly organised with his many hobbies and interests.Thanks for your input this has really made me think about the underlying psychological reasons for his behaviour in a way that I normally wouldn't do in my preoccupation with trying to address the underlying physical issues.On the other hand we should probably also be revisiting movement-based therapies as well as thinking about dyspraxia NF protocols.(Sorry this is so long anyone else who has managed to get this far!).

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[Guest guest]

There is a very common confusion when working with people like this between problems of memory and problems of presence.

What you are describing isn't necessarily a problem of memory. Often, when we do an assessment of a person who has " memory " problems, we'll find excellent working memory. But if you aren't actually " present " when you arrive in the classroom--that is, when the teacher is asking for homework to be passed in, you are lost somewhere inside your head and don't hear it or recognize it as relating to you, you will " forget " to turn in your homework.

People with dominant slow activity in the brain's activation pattern essentially live in an internal universe. They make representations of the outside world and bring them into their heads and interact with them there. Dominant slow processors (which does not mean that they THINK slowly), have a difficult time staying in contact with an outer reality, and they have a hard time processing language for detail and doing things in steps or sequences.

Be careful about deciding " why " he is doing or not doing something. The danger is that YOU then create your own internal reality " him " and begin acting as if that were the real person. This is one of the greatest blocks to successful change with neurofeedback: the expectations of the client and of the support system--the homeostasis.

Pete

Whilst the failing to hand in homework despite taking the trouble to do it is what has the most serious consequences for him I don't think his forgetfulness is that specific. He is also quite forgetful with items of clothing often doesn't dress in appropriate clothing for weather conditions in his preoccupation with going wherever, he has completely 'lost' two winter coats at school this winter, leaves swimming kits everywhere,loses equipment such as pencil cases and so on.He recently spent almost a week carrying 10 heavy overdue library books around with him intended to be returned to the school library.

Despite the considerable extra weight that might have served to remind most people he continued carrying the bag to and from and around with him at school for four days. When he returned home with the books each day still in a bag that he could barely carry it was easier to lie and say that the librarians weren't taking books back today or the library was closed rather than acknowledge that he simply hadn't done it because (I suspect) he feels so foolish and

embarassed, same with lying about why the homework doesn't get handed in.Or maybe as you suggest if these behaviours are subconsciously motivated he doesn't know why he didn't do it.Though I suspect that being ADHD, mildly Dyslexic and mildly Dyspraxic has a great deal to do with this. The dyspraxia means that his efficiency of movement is compromised lack of coordination, sensory-integration/proprioceptive issues, poor directional/spatial awareness, mild motor-planning difficulties, multi-tasking and sequencing issues etc mean that subtle difficulties simply getting everything done that others do much more quickly and easily in the busy school day(eg getting changed, moving around school, eating lunch etc) may leave him with so little time for the more pleasureable social aspects of school that he loves that it is some sort of half genuinely forgetful/half-deliberate trade off.The lies then are necessary not just because he is embarassed but because he knows that his behaviour doesn't make sense to others particularly adults.A coping strategy rather than oppositional disorganized behaviour possibly.As I think about it I'm realising now that he is

mostly forgetful at school, scout camp, youth groups etc wherever he is an environment with his all-important peers rather than at home where he is fairly organised with his many hobbies and interests.Thanks for your input this has really made me think about the underlying psychological reasons for his behaviour in a way that I normally wouldn't do in my preoccupation with trying to address the underlying physical issues.On the other hand we should probably also

be revisiting movement-based therapies as well as thinking about dyspraxia NF protocols.(Sorry this is so long anyone else who has managed to get this far!).

-- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

We have a very similar situation with our 9 yr old. He lives in his own

world and is unorganized and very slow to get things done. He can read a

500 page book in two days, but writing a simple paragraph is a painful

and long experience. We have been using NFB training successfully at

home, and he is doing much better this year. The homework is actually

getting done AND for the most part making it back to school.

One resource you may want to consider is a book called " Dreamers,

Discoverers and Dynamos " by Dr. Lucy Jo Palladino (

www.fearlessfocus.com ). //This same book also is released under the

title " The Edison Trait " . I first read it two years ago, and for me

this book was an absolute turning point in understanding how to deal

with my son. After reading it my husband and I were really able to

understand and internalize a few key things, including 1) he is not

doing this willfully and 2) The strict approach we were using (losing

all sorts of privledges for what we believed to be poor behavioral

choices) was really compounding the problem by stressing us all out.

Whenever the issues are at their worst and, I still reach for this book,

as it has good practical advice for understanding the situation from his

perspective.

-Theresa

[Guest guest]

We have a very similar situation with our 9 yr old. He lives in his own

world and is unorganized and very slow to get things done. He can read a

500 page book in two days, but writing a simple paragraph is a painful

and long experience. We have been using NFB training successfully at

home, and he is doing much better this year. The homework is actually

getting done AND for the most part making it back to school.

One resource you may want to consider is a book called " Dreamers,

Discoverers and Dynamos " by Dr. Lucy Jo Palladino (

www.fearlessfocus.com ). //This same book also is released under the

title " The Edison Trait " . I first read it two years ago, and for me

this book was an absolute turning point in understanding how to deal

with my son. After reading it my husband and I were really able to

understand and internalize a few key things, including 1) he is not

doing this willfully and 2) The strict approach we were using (losing

all sorts of privledges for what we believed to be poor behavioral

choices) was really compounding the problem by stressing us all out.

Whenever the issues are at their worst and, I still reach for this book,

as it has good practical advice for understanding the situation from his

perspective.

-Theresa

[Guest guest]

Sounds like you've given his problem a LOT of thought and careful analysis. Finding a way to help him internalize the structure you provide him at home would certainly help him a lot, wouldn't it?

Sorry my ideas didn't fit but maybe--like you say--augmenting his NF treatment might,

Reply-To: braintrainer To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Organizational Issues in ADHDDate: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 21:48:12 -0000

Whilst the failing to hand in homework despite taking the trouble to do it is what has the most serious consequences for him I don't think his forgetfulness is that specific. He is also quite forgetful with items of clothing often doesn't dress in appropriate clothing for weather conditions in his preoccupation with going wherever, he has completely 'lost' two winter coats at school this winter, leaves swimming kits everywhere,loses equipment such as pencil cases and so on.He recently spent almost a week carrying 10 heavy overdue library books around with him intended to be returned to the school library. Despite the considerable extra weight that might have served to remind most people he continued carrying the bag to and from and around with him at school for four days. When he returned home with the books each day still in a bag that he could barely carry it was easier to lie and say that the librarians weren't taking books back today or the library was closed rather than acknowledge that he simply hadn't done it because (I suspect) he feels so foolish and embarassed, same with lying about why the homework doesn't get handed in.Or maybe as you suggest if these behaviours are subconsciously motivated he doesn't know why he didn't do it.Though I suspect that being ADHD, mildly Dyslexic and mildly Dyspraxic has a great deal to do with this. The dyspraxia means that his efficiency of movement is compromised lack of coordination, sensory-integration/proprioceptive issues, poor directional/spatial awareness, mild motor-planning difficulties, multi-tasking and sequencing issues etc mean that subtle difficulties simply getting everything done that others do much more quickly and easily in the busy school day(eg getting changed, moving around school, eating lunch etc) may leave him with so little time for the more pleasureable social aspects of school that he loves that it is some sort of half genuinely forgetful/half-deliberate trade off.The lies then are necessary not just because he is embarassed but because he knows that his behaviour doesn't make sense to others particularly adults.A coping strategy rather than oppositional disorganized behaviour possibly.As I think about it I'm realising now that he is mostly forgetful at school, scout camp, youth groups etc wherever he is an environment with his all-important peers rather than at home where he is fairly organised with his many hobbies and interests.Thanks for your input this has really made me think about the underlying psychological reasons for his behaviour in a way that I normally wouldn't do in my preoccupation with trying to address the underlying physical issues.On the other hand we should probably also be revisiting movement-based therapies as well as thinking about dyspraxia NF protocols.(Sorry this is so long anyone else who has managed to get this far!).