Suits against NF providers by clients

[Guest guest]

I am trying to find out what the incidence of this activity is. Will anyone aware of a client (home-based or office-based) suing a trainer (professional or otherwise) please share whatever info you have with me? Any details (names are not important) would be helpful.

Thank you.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Hi Steve, Pete, This is getting more exciting each day. My field was teaching then psychology, one of our schools went on a weekend outing, a boy died when he fell in the river. The staff who gave of thier free time to prepare, train and attend these wonderful outings were devastated. The father of the boy took the staff to court. He took them to court for three years, it ruined their lives, with his big money he made a big noise of how much he loved this boy of his, which we all knew to be quite the reverse. I have seen this thing happen where kind hearted people so willing to share their love and passion are sometimes caught up in something ugly. I would not wish it on anyone. I was involved in two student suicide coronial inquests, they were not attractive, especially when parents blame the staff for their child's death. These teachers would never do anything to harm the children in their care, they were lovely people. And it did

severely affect their lives. I see you, Steve, as one of those generous kind hearted souls who wants to heal the world with their passion, it is not the patient who will sue you, it is someone close to them who wants to make a point. I speak from experience, not from nfb but from life. Sure , treat your clients with respect and they will do likewise, but watch out for their parent or partner who resents spending all that money and feels that you are taking control out of their hands. Sure Pete, there may be zero court cases in nfb, but it only takes one, and if you are IT, then you will wish you were a hard arsed person who never gave damn. I know you love home trainers, you are the regular 'battler', a hero of nfb and much admired by us all, but how effectively will your words comfort somone who ends up in a situation like this? Sure, it may never happen, but why are these experienced professionals advising beginners to get

some training under their belts before practicing on the general public? We live in a litigious society, I have seen it in action first hand, I wish I hadn't, it brings out the worst in people, and some people can be very unpleasant. Sure, I have been accused of scaremongering, but I have also worked in the prison system, they are the ones I wouldn't worry about, they just do dumb things and get caught, it's the smart ones that you have to worry about. OK, let me have it guys! pacman (aka Noel) Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I totally agree with you, Pedre, and the recent posting by

Pete. Once again, I want to inform this group for those who

want more mediative or self awareness, or learning to release issues,

there are other forms of NF that are really awesome, such as Wise

Brain Mirror or the newest form I've mentioned is by

www.icaptech.com

This new product really works great with self

awareness and with trauma patients, along with using the Emwave from

Heart Math. It is easy to use and does not require the

lengthy training or certification.

However, if your intention is to work on specific illness, diseases,

chronic health conditions, which NF really helps then the training you

mention I feel is imperative to do. I've been a neuropsychologist

for over 30 years and am still in awe of what there is to know about the

brain and am still learning everyday. From what I know I'm able to

help people recover from coma, stroke, severe brain injury and severe

PTSD.

I totally agree with Pete that home training has it part and is very

important. Most, if not all my patients are doing home training

with me along with seeing me 2x per week. The results are at times

remarkable. I have one patient who was in a coma for 3 months

and was unable to even recall his name. Within 2 years of 2x per

week along with home training he back at college and got a 3.0

average.

I feel Pete training is invaluable along with other

techniques. Once again, my advice is to " Do NO harm, " and

to work within your expertise. If you do so, you don't have to be

concern about being sued, or worse yet living with the knowledge you have

done harm, which it sounds like some of you do not believe can happen.

Diane

> Pete,

>

> Your words about learning things slowly and experientially are good

ones.

> However, I think there is more also. In my opinion when one

practices

> neurofeedback it is important to have knowledge regarding the issue

being

> treated. In other words, one of the factors in doing neurofeedback

on

> someone who is depressed, for example, is knowing something

about

> depression...not just neurofeedback. The reason the state licensing

boards

> exist and insist on formal training for people who treat medical

and

> mental health conditions is to avoid the damage done by individuals

who get

> " enough knowledge to be dangerous " and run out and offer

it to their

> friends and family in a willy-nilly fashion and end up in water way

over

> their heads. As neurofeedback gains credibility more and more is

going to

> be expected from those of us who offer it. If we treat Asperger's

it's

> going to be assumed that we have studied the problem.

> That's where the we can get into trouble. It's not that

neurofeedback is a

> particularly dangerous technique,

> if's that the things we treat are often complicated. As a

neurofeedback practitioner I'm

> going to need to know when to refer to a neurologist, how to relate

to

> medical doctor

Dr. Diane Stoler, Ed.D., LLC

P.O. Box 148

town, MA 01833

Toll Free in US

Direct Dial

For information on how to obtain

" Coping with Mild Traumatic Brain Injury:

A Guide to Living with the Challenges Associated with Concussion/

Brain Injury "

Click the link below

<http://

www.drdiane.com

>

Neuroband:

For the Professional and Home User of

Neurofeedback equipment:

Clink the link below

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[Guest guest]

,

These are excellent points. My comment was not that lay trainers were in every way like good professionals. It was that they developed their knowledge of NF slowly and with depth and humility just like the best pro trainers.

While I agree that there is a lot to know about depression or aspergers or RAD, for example, let me ask you a question: Have you never had a mom or dad or client who came to you with an incredible amount of knowledge about these disorders? I'm stunned when I work with some of these families at how MUCH they know. They use the internet, the library, meetings with professionals and others dealing with the same problem to gain a tremendous depth of knowledge about the condition. In fact, in many cases, they know more about that specific condition than their clinically trained providers do. They teach me every time I meet with them to teach them. You, as a clinician, spent X years learning about all aspects of mental health. How much time did you spend specifically learning about RAD? About depression? Many of these people have spent that long and more delving into just that one area because of its personal importance to them in their lives.

One of the people on this list whose comments are most helpful and knowledgeable in the area of bipolar disorder is a mother who has spent years learning everything she could about the problem to help her son--after work with a clinician only went part way. A group with whom I have done training in California is made up entirely of parents who have RAD children. They have studied with the experts in that field, and they know as much or more than a great majority of the clinicians with whom they work about that one problem. Another group in Wisconsin has done the same. These groups and others in Virginia and elsewhere also band together to share their knowledge--not only of the clinical issues, but also of NF. They take courses from different teachers, they try various techniques and equipment options, and they share the information and support each other in ways that most clinicians either cannot or do not.

There is another whole field here that often gets lumped into the lay trainers: a special ed teacher or even a classroom teacher who does not have a clincal license but has a tremendous knowledge of kids and how they do and don't learn, comes at NF from a different point of view. Do you honestly believe that those people are less qualified than a clinician? One of the 3 best trainers with whom I have ever worked was a classroom teacher who had an astonishing ability to relate to and motivate children and parents.

There is another side to this point. As good as you may be--as good as many clinicians may be--as well as they are able to spend the time to learn NF to the level of, say, a and integrate it with their clinical knowledge, the clinical degree and license does not guarantee that. I regularly run into folks who got into home training because they had spent months and thousands of dollars with someone who had a clinical degree and a license and a ticket in NF (maybe even stamped by BCIA) but who had a very shallow understanding of it. They applied the recipe(s) they had learned. When those did not work, it was the patient's fault (resistent to treatment--after 100 ineffective sessions) or the family's fault (not willing to come in often enough). They were more than comfortable with the well-trained understanding that they had good boundaries and that they could not help everyone. The parents and the clients don't have that luxury.

Once again, I'm not saying that a lay trainer is a clinician in terms of breadth of knowledge of the mental health field, its history, its various theoretical orientations or all of its many diagnoses and syndromes. Most NF providers (professional and lay) end up working in a more restricted area anyway: they specialize in ADHD or developmental disorders or chronic pain or anxiety disorders. They become MORE expert in those areas. Why is Diane Stoler so good with traumatic brain injuries? Partly because she has HAD one herself. Her commitment was more than professional; it was personal as well. She lived with it every day and fought back from it and learned way more about it than the standard Ph.D. Exactly like many of the moms and dads and individuals themselves who get into lay training for a specific problem in their own lives.

My problem with the whole BCIA approach (which you may recall was how we got into this whole thing) is that BCIA (founded and set up and defined by mental health clinicians ALONE) has tried to jerk the whole field around to its own single orientation. LOTS of people understand mental health and mental health problems. They live with them every day. Not all of them know the difference between cognitive behavioral therapy and psychodynamic psychotherapy. They may not understand the inner complexities of the diagnostic codings, and they may use different words for the concepts of resistance and boundary issues and transference, but they know what they are. Teachers, parents, coaches, engineers and a dozen others bring to working with people who want to change THEMSELVES an angle of knowledge and an area of understanding that the mental health clinician does NOT. If they are willing to spend the time and make the effort and go slowly with humility, accept help and advice and learn from experience and LISTEN to and respect their clients--as the very best clinically trained NF providers do--then I am of the opinion they should be allowed to practice and to demonstrate once again that there are a hundred roads to better health--not just one.

Pete

Pete,

Your words about learning things slowly and experientially are good ones. However, I think there is more also. In my opinion when one practices neurofeedback it is important to have knowledge regarding the issue being treated. In other words, one of the factors in doing neurofeedback on someone who is depressed, for example, is knowing something about depression...not just neurofeedback. The reason the state licensing boards exist and insist on formal training for people who treat medical and mental health conditions is to avoid the damage done by individuals who get " enough knowledge to be dangerous " and run out and offer it to their friends and family in a willy-nilly fashion and end up in water way over their heads. As neurofeedback gains credibility more and more is going to be expected from those of us who offer it. If we treat Asperger's it's going to be assumed that we have studied the problem. That's where the we can get into trouble. It's not that neurofeedback is a particularly dangerous technique, if's that the things we treat are often complicated. As a neurofeedback practitioner I'm going to need to know when to refer to a neurologist, how to relate to medical doctors, and a fair amount about a variety of medical and psychological conditions.

As it is, I have a license to practice biofeedback, so the licensing issue is not a concern to me. However, I'm taking the coursework required for BCIA certification because I need to know the information itself to do a good job. The coursework for the Anatomy and Physiology requirement is very helpful...since I am doing biofeedback. I've also taken extra training in Aspergers and the developmental disorders because I need it to do the work I do.

When you say that folks without licenses can be in every way just like the really good professional trainers, I take it you mean that they have also taken training in the areas of psychological and medical conditions that they treat. Otherwise, they are definitely not in every way like the professionals who have. To treat ADHD, anxiety, seizures, depression, Aspergers, and autism, etc., without studying those concerns puts one in the unenviable position of not having some of the driving lessons you mention. Being a good neurofeedback practitioner isn't just about learning neurofeedback...it's about a lot more.

Bissetteandria, VA

Bissette@...

http://HealthyMind.comhttp://NeurofeedbackToday.com

Re: Re:Suits against NF providers by clients

Noel,

If I have ever given the impression that I recommend that people practice on the general public without a good deal of training and experience, then I rescind that statement. When I am contacted by a potential home trainer, even one who " only " wants to work on his/her own brain or that of their kid, I try to make them aware that they can do it--and I try to make them aware that it's not like baking brownies. I always recommend that they find someone near them, if at all possible, to serve as a guide, especially in the learning of skills like finding sites, placing electrodes and recognizing artifact. I always suggest that people hook up with this group as soon as possible, for the very simple reason that, when you listen to real people who are DOING it talk, it becomes very clear that there is a LOT you don't know. And I always tell people that they really should take some training--mine or someone else's. Anyone can buy a car, but I wouldn't try and drive it without some lessons.

The home trainers I brag on, the ones who have taken on such difficult cases and gotten such remarkable results, aren't people who just picked up a machine and went out on the corner. They trained with me, in many cases with others as well. They worked on their own heads (as Steve has), so NF was more real to them, they slowly begin working with family members or neighbors. They took more training and read. They got support and asked questions and were active on the list(s). They were in every way like the really good professional trainers I speak of except they didn't have the same degrees.

I respect your point that lightning can strike anyone, and no-one wants to be the one it does, but I guess I have always tried to live my life as if it would not happen to me. I don't walk around with long metal poles when the sky is flashing. I don't climb trees or go to the top of the highest place to hear the thunder better. I do everything I can not to be a target, but I believe that in many cases we end up attracting what we most fear, and I know too many people who have lived their lives as if the bad thing was going to happen. It never did, but they ended up paying the price (emotionally) just about as if it had.

I think, in the end, we are all saying pretty much the same thing here.

Pete

On 4/3/07, pac pac <pac_aussie@...

> wrote:

Hi Steve, Pete, This is getting more exciting each day. My field was teaching then psychology, one of our schools went on a weekend outing, a boy died when he fell in the river. The staff who gave of thier free time to prepare, train and attend these wonderful outings were devastated. The father of the boy took the staff to court. He took them to court for three years, it ruined their lives, with his big money he made a big noise of how much he loved this boy of his, which we all knew to be quite the reverse. I have seen this thing happen where kind hearted people so willing to share their love and passion are sometimes caught up in something ugly. I would not wish it on anyone. I was involved in two student suicide coronial inquests, they were not attractive, especially when parents blame the staff for their child's death. These teachers would never do anything to harm the children in their care, they were lovely people. And it did severely affect their lives. I see you, Steve, as one of those generous kind hearted souls who wants to heal the world with their passion, it is not the patient who will sue you, it is someone close to them who wants to make a point.I speak from experience, not from nfb but from life. Sure , treat your clients with respect and they will do likewise, but watch out for their parent or partner who resents spending all that money and feels that you are taking control out of their hands. Sure Pete, there may be zero court cases in nfb, but it only takes one, and if you are IT, then you will wish you were a hard arsed person who never gave damn. I know you love home trainers, you are the regular 'battler', a hero of nfb and much admired by us all, but how effectively will your words comfort somone who ends up in a situation like this? Sure, it may never happen, but why are these experienced professionals advising beginners to get some training under their belts before practicing on the general public? We live in a litigious society, I have seen it in action first hand, I wish I hadn't, it brings out the worst in people, and some people can be very unpleasant. Sure, I have been accused of scaremongering, but I have also worked in the prison system, they are the ones I wouldn't worry about, they just do dumb things and get caught, it's the smart ones that you have to worry about. OK, let me have it guys!pacman (aka Noel)

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

-- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

-- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Hi Bobbi,

It's interesting how, after you are in this field for a while, you can begin to tell where someone got their information from listening to the language they use. Stress Therapy Solutions is...BrainMaster. It is a company set up by Terri Mrklas (not Terri Collura), which they use to provide the workshops they sponsor. It sounds better than saying BrainMaster is offering the workshop that says BrainMaster is the best equipment.

" Medical grade " equipment sounds pretty impressive. That is what BrainMaster likes to call its equipment. It's a nice marketing technique to make it sound different from other options. When they say " medical grade " , they simply mean that they have gone through the steps and spent the money to have their equipment registered (not tested or certified) by the FDA.in a process known as 510(k). According to the FDA's own website (http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfPCD/classification.cfm?ID=3019

), " biofeedback devices " are exempt from 510(k) requirements. Certainly any company that wishes can apply to have their device certified. The nice part of getting the FDA to register your device--and then calling it " medical grade " --is that it makes things tougher for foreign competitors. There are excellent alternatives from Argentina, Australia and the Netherlands which have a harder time " proving " what the FDA calls " good manufacturing practices " , even though their manufacturing practices are as good or better than BrainMaster's, because they are overseas. In terms of specs, in terms of safety requirements, in terms of the quality of the equipment itself--and in terms of the number of NF providers who prefer those devices--they are in every way equal or better.

The FDA recognizes " biofeedback " (no specific category for neurofeedback) for 5 purposes:

1. General relaxation

2. Relaxation for Stress Management

3. Muscle relaxation

4. Muscle relaxation for pain management, and

5. Quality of life management.

It exempts biofeedback devices because it doesn't consider them very dangerous or invasive. Apparently there have not been many (or any) complaints about misuse or damage to clients--which is also the case with the much more invasive light/sound devices. To the best of my knowledge the FDA doesn't say who can buy them or who can use them. The FDA has almost certainly never heard of BCIA.

On the brain-trainer.com website, we sell a variety of NF devices (including the Atlantis), all with pretty much the same performance specs, all with good quality, some registered with the FDA, some not. We don't require BCIA certification--heck, we don't even require clinical licensure (if it's good enough for the FDA, it's good enough for us)--to buy these devices. We sell to mental health clinicians, to clinicians from other fields, to teachers, to parents to people who want to work on their own brains. We generally sell " unlocked " devices, which use software that allows the client or trainer to change things in the protocol.

One of the things I hope you have gotten from this thread so far is that NF is not something you just pick up and stick on your head. There is a learning curve to be a good provider. But, as I mentioned in a previous post, the huge majority of providers in the field today are NOT BCIA certified. They are NOT mental health clinicians. And many of them are NOT using " medical grade " equipment. To the best of my knowledge, despite this terrible oversight, the " quality of life " of a great majority of people who are training their brains is improving at an alarming rate. (If we could only get a few more machines into Washington...)

If you took Demos' course, you probably believe you will need to buy (AFTER you get your BCIA certification) an Atlantis, the Mini-Q (from BrainMaster) and 's " clinically normed " assessment package. I think that's around $4,000 (before you buy the Brainmaster software add-ons). But you can buy a very good 2-channel NF setup for under $2000 and an excellent 4-channel for not much more. Download the TLC Assessment (take a look at it on brain-trainer.com) for FREE. Don't need a mini-Q machine to do it. And, as soon as you have trained yourself and your husband and maybe worked with your son not so on-and-off (ADHD in a child should usually take 30-45 sessions total), taken some other courses, hung out on the lists and read some more (might try Barkley's book on ODD), you can start working with other children, ideally with someone backing you up.

If you get results, you can keep going. You can become certified by NTCB (take a look at their requirements--every bit as stringent as BCIA vis-a-vis knowledge of NF but without the requirement that you be a mental health clinician), join the biofeedback association, set up your informed consent and malpractice insurance and start off down the path. Cost of that whole process is a fraction of the BCIA cost.

Glad you were on the list and asked the question. I hope this helped.

Pete

Pete,

I am very interested in this thread and have been following it. I have been looking at your website and reading your list-serve for quite some time. Let me tell you a little about myself and then ask your opinion. My son has ADHD/ODD. Around a year ago, I found a neurofeedback provider. He is a psychologist. We have been doing therapy off and on since then. We are renting the Brainmaster Atlantis 4x4 from the psychologist and using it under his supervision and care. He sends the protocols to us and we send the data back. Now, I became more and more interested in doing this on myself and my husband as well as becoming more educated in the field. So, recently I attended a " Getting Started with Neurofeedback " conference with Stress Therapy Solutions. It was fantastic! I want to provide this to people in my area (our provider who is the closest we have found is 4 hours from us). However, I really thought, until I read this thread, that one could not have clients and use NF as therapy for disorders such as ADHD unless they were certified by the BCIA and worked under the direct supervision of a mental health professional. It's my understanding that the FDA has only cleared NFB as therapy for general relaxation and all else is experimental. I am a health care professional in my field (just not mental health). I cannot buy medical grade equipment if I understand things correctly. Are you suggesting that as long as I am being ethical in that I'm not providing therapy for anything I don't have experience with, or am educated on, I can simply purchase non-medical grade equipment, hang out my sign and open for business? I am so confused about the legalities surrounding the practice of NFB. Please explain.

Bobbi

Re: Suits against NF providers by clients

Thanks, Hal. Doesn't sound like an NF problem--well, maybe the provider could use some training--but it does kind of define the outer boundaries of the point that trainers who communicate with and care about their clients don't get sued.

I spoke with Gilbert today (Thanks, JD), since he has been at the center of the regulatory board and lawsuit (and threats to go to the FDA, etc.) activity, fighting the battle for the forces of truth, justice and the American way. In response to my question about client suits against NF practitioners, he trumped me. I've been saying that in 16 years in the field, I've never heard of one. says in 32 years, he's never heard of one! That's as in zero, folks. So those who may be making their decisions with that bogeyman over their shoulders can (if they choose) take a nice deep breath and focus on relating to their clients instead of protecting themselves from them.

BTW, these numbers relate to the US, so what the climate might be like in Australia, Switzerland and other hotbeds of NF, I can't say. However, since the US is personal injury heaven for lawyers relative to the rest of the world, I would assume the numbers would not be different in those places than here.

Vis-a-vis BCIA and its " pre-eminent " place in the field, had some interesting facts used recently in a case in Michigan. There are 18 clinician NF providers in the state who are BCIA certified--112 who are not! Non-clinician providers (who of course can't possibly be BCIA certified), 400 or more--and that's not including those who are using " non-registered " devices like PETs and Pendants. In the cases where BCIA has testified against a provider, the provider has won EVERY ONE!

Certification is like money. It has whatever value you believe it has.

As we've discussed previously (and any of you who have hung out at all on the Biofeedback list can attest) there is a single source for all this litigation. World famous bibliographer and hypnotist extraordinaire Cory Hammond. Cory has wound up a group of about 18 other psychologists and gotten them fevered about the need to protect their turf from those of us beneath them. This group has filed or motivated the filing of almost all the actions of regulatory boards against individual NF providers. Most recently, however, the cases are being thrown out before they are even pursued, so the group may have decided that they followed a guy who promised to take them to the California coast and ended up in...Utah. The really ironic part now is that there is a group that will be seeking to certify only physicians and chiropractors, a group of whom want to deny NF privileges to psychologists!! Psychologists, they say, are practicing medicine without a license when they treat anxiety, depression or ADHD, all of which are MEDICAL problems based on CHEMICAL IMBALANCES!

Meanwhile, had some very good advice (from the trenches) to anyone wishing to practice: Use an Informed Consent form and carry liability insurance. He and a former FDA attorney drafted a simple informed consent that covers BF from the point of view of the FDA. It was my understanding in speaking with him that the form was available on the website for the Natural Therapies Certification Board ( http://www.ntcb.org ), but I can't find it there. If anyone has a copy, please share it with the group.

The Biofeedback association (http://biofeedbackassociation.com/ ) provides, in the cost of membership ($150-265 a year) professional malpractice insurance, general liability--theft of equipment, etc.--and other benefits for its members. Most of us who want to work with clients can afford that.

BTW, for those on the list who feared what the dreaded Cory threatened--to take his case to the FDA and bring the wrath of federal regulators raining down upon the field--fear no more. He DID it. I said, he DID it. It's done.

So let's all take a deep breath and return our focus to the questions of how to get better results with our clients, checking out cool new pieces of equipment and software, tracking what's happening in the media, running our businesses, etc.

Pete

On 4/3/07, schaustennis@... <

schaustennis@...> wrote:

Hi Pete:I only know of one suit against a credentialed NFB provider, but that was for sexual impositions.RegardsHal " Van Deusen " wrote: >I am trying to find out what the incidence of this activity is. Will anyone >aware of a client (home-based or office-based) suing a trainer (professional>or otherwise) please share whatever info you have with me? Any details >(names are not important) would be helpful.> >Thank you.>>Pete>>-- > Van Deusen> pvdtlc@...

>http://www.brain-trainer.com>305/433-3160>The Learning Curve, Inc. >

-- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

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-- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

For the record, as someone who has contributed a comment or two to this thread, I'm not selling anything. Wm G PhD wrote: I think discussion like this are always difficult for me to read because they are so self serving. This list as well as other are full of individuals who have a vested interest in promoting what they sell. That's human nature. What I find difficult is

listening to those who teach or sell something but fail to acknowledge that they benifit by promoting a particular approach or product. Because this doesn't happen these discussions go on for ever until someone just gives up. We've all seen this on almost every NF list. What is then missing is the ability to really learn from people with knowledge and expertise.

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[Guest guest]

For the record, as someone who has contributed a comment or two to this thread, I'm not selling anything. Wm G PhD wrote: I think discussion like this are always difficult for me to read because they are so self serving. This list as well as other are full of individuals who have a vested interest in promoting what they sell. That's human nature. What I find difficult is

listening to those who teach or sell something but fail to acknowledge that they benifit by promoting a particular approach or product. Because this doesn't happen these discussions go on for ever until someone just gives up. We've all seen this on almost every NF list. What is then missing is the ability to really learn from people with knowledge and expertise.

It's here! Your new message!Get

new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.

[Guest guest]

hi pete,

as you mentionend switzerland, there is no problem here for nf-trainers

to offer nf-services, even when they don't hold a degree in any related

profession, like in psychology, m.d., etc.

here, people generally are very much reluctant to sue anybody - i think

it is a mentality thing here. we rather take responsibilities for

ourselves, rather blaming ourselves, if something minor goes wrong, than

the other guy involved (which is not always a good thing, but in

general, i like the attitude of people taking responsability for

themselves).

from a legal perspective, anyone can offer nf here, even when one

doesn't have any training at all.

in order to provide some standards however, there has been a

professional association in switzerland since 1999, open for providers

who meet certain standards, the " Neurofeedback Verband Schweiz NFS " (see

at: http//:www.neurofeedback-verband.ch). the association is open for

any practitioners in switzerland or abroad meeting their standard, not

depending on the system they are using.

best

stephan

[Guest guest]

Re: Re:Suits against NF providers by clients

For the record, as someone who has contributed a comment or two to this thread, I'm not selling anything.

I would disagree. I consider what you said below in a previous post just as reflective of the "vested interests in promoting what they sell" that was refering to as those who sell "just" TLC assessments, education and training.

"The same may be true for adult clients who come in and say, "I want to be able to relax and focus better at work (aka peak performance)." The history-taking and assessment may reveal latent or active addiction that the client has compartmentalized or doesn't think to mention, but that would be very important information to have when it comes to designing an effective treatment. Knowing the right questions to ask can be key to seeing the whole picture."

The vested interest is the provision of a particular type of clinical expertise for a fee. This particular type of clinical expertise involves diagnositic interviewing, coordination or care and treatment planning.

Most of my professional activities involves such provision of servies. Given that, I would consider myself to have vested interests in the sale of such services and it's quite likely such biases have showed up in some previous posts of mine even though I have never sold such services here.

BTW-Even though william was the one to identify vested interests, his biases and vested interests are as clear to me as my own and many of the other posters who report here are. None of us are free of it.

Bruce B

For the record, as someone who has contributed a comment or two to this thread, I'm not selling anything.

Wm G PhD <wgcphdgmail> wrote:

I think discussion like this are always difficult for me to read because they are so self serving. This list as well as other are full of individuals who have a vested interest in promoting what they sell. That's human nature. What I find difficult is listening to those who teach or sell something but fail to acknowledge that they benifit by promoting a particular approach or product. Because this doesn't happen these discussions go on for ever until someone just gives up. We've all seen this on almost every NF list. What is then missing is the ability to really learn from people with knowledge and expertise.

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[Guest guest]

And I then abstract up even one more level to this: Trust.

What is it that engenders trust in the public. When a total stranger

comes to us to help them with a deeply personal problem, how can they

trust us that we will have their best interest in mind. Does licensure

provide that, continuing education, an academic degree? A code of ethics?

Or, to what degree do those things engender Trust? And if they don't,

what does?

Kirk

wrote:

>

>

> The issue for me is competence, breadth of knowledge, willingness to

> continue learning, and ethical behavior.

>

> It is lack of the above that makes me shudder, fear for our clients,

> and for the future of the field.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well, I wouldn't expect you to know this, but I don't treat adults, don't charge for NFB, and am paid the same to work with the children on my "day job" caseload whether it's 25 or 125 kids per year. I honestly don't have a horse in this race, as far as profit goes. I guess if I'm promoting anything, it's competence in NFB providers so that consumers develop trust in what I believe can be a very beneficial treatment. I've met a lot of quacks in my time, as we all have, and it's clear to me that whether or not one is affiliated with one organization or another is no refuge from quackery. What I've advocated on this thread is good training; natural ability / intuition; close, quality supervision, preferably from people across multiple disciplines; and lots of practice.

Perhaps, as someone who uses NFB to help families with complicated kids without charging for the service (not as part of my paid work, but, rather, on my own time), I should have remained out of the discussion altogether. Bruce wrote: Re: Re:Suits against NF providers by clients For the record, as someone who has contributed a comment or two to this thread, I'm not selling anything. I would disagree. I consider what you said below in a previous post just as reflective of the "vested

interests in promoting what they sell" that was refering to as those who sell "just" TLC assessments, education and training. "The same may be true for adult clients who come in and say, "I want to be able to relax and focus better at work (aka peak performance)." The history-taking and assessment may reveal latent or active addiction that the client has compartmentalized or doesn't think to mention, but that would be very important information to have when it comes to designing an effective treatment. Knowing the right questions to ask can be key to seeing the whole picture." The vested interest is the provision of a particular type of clinical expertise for a

fee. This particular type of clinical expertise involves diagnositic interviewing, coordination or care and treatment planning. Most of my professional activities involves such provision of servies. Given that, I would consider myself to have vested interests in the sale of such services and it's quite likely such biases have showed up in some previous posts of mine even though I have never sold such services here. BTW-Even though william was the one to identify vested interests, his biases and vested interests are as clear to me as my own and many of the other posters who report here are. None of us are free of it. Bruce B For the record, as someone who has contributed a comment or two to this thread, I'm not selling anything. Wm G PhD <wgcphdgmail> wrote: I think discussion like this are always difficult for me to read because they are so self serving. This list as well as other are full of individuals who have a vested interest in promoting what they sell. That's human nature. What I find difficult is

listening to those who teach or sell something but fail to acknowledge that they benifit by promoting a particular approach or product. Because this doesn't happen these discussions go on for ever until someone just gives up. We've all seen this on almost every NF list. What is then missing is the ability to really learn from people with knowledge and expertise. It's here! Your new message!Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.

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[Guest guest]

Pete, I do admit I thought that you and a few others were proposing practice without training, so I shall bow out as the good Dr suggests. Keep up the good work too mate. pacman Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

[Guest guest]

I won't go on about the licensing thing here because it is apparently a topic that has already received a bunch of attention...but it seems like a main point is being missed in the conversation. So I'll make it and then quit.

Speeding laws aren't written for safe drivers. And likewise, licensing laws and certifications are not written to provide constraints for competent practitioners. We have licenses for everything from plumbers to MD's. They don't guarantee anything about any one individual provider of services, but they probably protect us from some of the worst...and at least provide a means of removing some of the worst from the field.

If we look around us we see numerous examples of licenses for other skills. As we all know, a driver's license doesn't guarantee that a driver is competent. However, most of us would not like to stop having drivers licenses, or plumbers licenses for that matter. I used to be an oral examiner for the Virginia Board of Psychology and helped to write a version of the state written exam before it became an oral exam. Our goal was to attempt to ensure that a minimum level of competence was held by folks who planned to practice on the general public.

The goal wasn't to protect our own personal financial interests...though I suppose that plenty of laws have been passed about all sorts of things for that purpose. The goal of a license was to attempt to prevent people from practicing who were in the bottom, scary part of the group. At times it was scary enough to see who we passed.

Can a person be talented, knowledgeable, and skillful without license? Of course. That's not the issue. In some ways the licensing procedure is not that different than going through metal detectors at the airport. We all sumbit to the frustrating process because there may be a few of us who could cause harm to the rest of us.

In terms of taking care of oneself as a home trainer...just be sure you're not claiming to treat something that requires a license to do so. Though licensing procedures can be set up for selfish and greedy reasons, most of the ones around treating medical and mental health issues don't necessarily fall into that category. As our field becomes more and more well-known we will be getting clients who expect more of us. They may well feel more entitled, as opposed to the clients who we have largely had up to this time...folks who have tried more well-known approaches and are grateful for whatever we can do. If you really want to make a career of treating people with depression and anxiety, etc., then take the trouble to get some formal training and enjoy the resulting knowledge. But if you decide to get out there and drive without a license, don't be surprised if you get a ticket.

Bissetteandria, VA

Bissette@...http://HealthyMind.comhttp://NeurofeedbackToday.com

Re: Re:Suits against NF providers by clients

For the record, as someone who has contributed a comment or two to this thread, I'm not selling anything.

I would disagree. I consider what you said below in a previous post just as reflective of the "vested interests in promoting what they sell" that was refering to as those who sell "just" TLC assessments, education and training.

"The same may be true for adult clients who come in and say, "I want to be able to relax and focus better at work (aka peak performance)." The history-taking and assessment may reveal latent or active addiction that the client has compartmentalized or doesn't think to mention, but that would be very important information to have when it comes to designing an effective treatment. Knowing the right questions to ask can be key to seeing the whole picture."

The vested interest is the provision of a particular type of clinical expertise for a fee. This particular type of clinical expertise involves diagnositic interviewing, coordination or care and treatment planning.

Most of my professional activities involves such provision of servies. Given that, I would consider myself to have vested interests in the sale of such services and it's quite likely such biases have showed up in some previous posts of mine even though I have never sold such services here.

BTW-Even though william was the one to identify vested interests, his biases and vested interests are as clear to me as my own and many of the other posters who report here are. None of us are free of it.

Bruce B

For the record, as someone who has contributed a comment or two to this thread, I'm not selling anything.

Wm G PhD <wgcphdgmail> wrote:

I think discussion like this are always difficult for me to read because they are so self serving. This list as well as other are full of individuals who have a vested interest in promoting what they sell. That's human nature. What I find difficult is listening to those who teach or sell something but fail to acknowledge that they benifit by promoting a particular approach or product. Because this doesn't happen these discussions go on for ever until someone just gives up. We've all seen this on almost every NF list. What is then missing is the ability to really learn from people with knowledge and expertise.

It's here! Your new message!Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.

8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no timewith theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.

[Guest guest]

,

This is an excellent point.

If anyone who is unlicensed begins talking about diagnostic categories, " treating " or " healing " or any of the language of health care, they are asking for trouble. Clinicians can do that, even using NF equipment, even though it is an " off-label " use (

i.e. doesn't fit into those 5 categories shared that the FDA recognizes for biofeedback), just as a physician can prescribe a medication approved as an anti-depressant for an off-label use like ADHD. That falls under the aegis of their licensure.

Pete

I won't go on about the licensing thing here because it is apparently a topic that has already received a bunch of attention...but it seems like a main point is being missed in the conversation. So I'll make it and then quit.

Speeding laws aren't written for safe drivers. And likewise, licensing laws and certifications are not written to provide constraints for competent practitioners. We have licenses for everything from plumbers to MD's. They don't guarantee anything about any one individual provider of services, but they probably protect us from some of the worst...and at least provide a means of removing some of the worst from the field.

If we look around us we see numerous examples of licenses for other skills. As we all know, a driver's license doesn't guarantee that a driver is competent. However, most of us would not like to stop having drivers licenses, or plumbers licenses for that matter. I used to be an oral examiner for the Virginia Board of Psychology and helped to write a version of the state written exam before it became an oral exam. Our goal was to attempt to ensure that a minimum level of competence was held by folks who planned to practice on the general public.

The goal wasn't to protect our own personal financial interests...though I suppose that plenty of laws have been passed about all sorts of things for that purpose. The goal of a license was to attempt to prevent people from practicing who were in the bottom, scary part of the group. At times it was scary enough to see who we passed.

Can a person be talented, knowledgeable, and skillful without license? Of course. That's not the issue. In some ways the licensing procedure is not that different than going through metal detectors at the airport. We all sumbit to the frustrating process because there may be a few of us who could cause harm to the rest of us.

In terms of taking care of oneself as a home trainer...just be sure you're not claiming to treat something that requires a license to do so. Though licensing procedures can be set up for selfish and greedy reasons, most of the ones around treating medical and mental health issues don't necessarily fall into that category. As our field becomes more and more well-known we will be getting clients who expect more of us. They may well feel more entitled, as opposed to the clients who we have largely had up to this time...folks who have tried more well-known approaches and are grateful for whatever we can do. If you really want to make a career of treating people with depression and anxiety, etc., then take the trouble to get some formal training and enjoy the resulting knowledge. But if you decide to get out there and drive without a license, don't be surprised if you get a ticket.

Bissetteandria, VA

Bissette@...

http://HealthyMind.comhttp://NeurofeedbackToday.com

Re: Re:Suits against NF providers by clients

For the record, as someone who has contributed a comment or two to this thread, I'm not selling anything.

I would disagree. I consider what you said below in a previous post just as reflective of the " vested interests in promoting what they sell " that was refering to as those who sell " just " TLC assessments, education and training.

" The same may be true for adult clients who come in and say, " I want to be able to relax and focus better at work (aka peak performance). " The history-taking and assessment may reveal latent or active addiction that the client has compartmentalized or doesn't think to mention, but that would be very important information to have when it comes to designing an effective treatment. Knowing the right questions to ask can be key to seeing the whole picture. "

The vested interest is the provision of a particular type of clinical expertise for a fee. This particular type of clinical expertise involves diagnositic interviewing, coordination or care and treatment planning.

Most of my professional activities involves such provision of servies. Given that, I would consider myself to have vested interests in the sale of such services and it's quite likely such biases have showed up in some previous posts of mine even though I have never sold such services here.

BTW-Even though william was the one to identify vested interests, his biases and vested interests are as clear to me as my own and many of the other posters who report here are. None of us are free of it.

Bruce B

For the record, as someone who has contributed a comment or two to this thread, I'm not selling anything.

Wm G PhD wrote:

I think discussion like this are always difficult for me to read because they are so self serving. This list as well as other are full of individuals who have a vested interest in promoting what they sell.

That's human nature. What I find difficult is listening to those who teach or sell something but fail to acknowledge that they benifit by promoting a particular approach or product. Because this doesn't

happen these discussions go on for ever until someone just gives up. We've all seen this on almost every NF list. What is then missing is the ability to really learn from people with knowledge and expertise.

It's here! Your new message!Get new email alerts

with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.

8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no timewith the

Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.

-- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.