Re: Question - LINEN MIST BASE

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/26/03 9:03:43 AM Pacific Standard Time,

eve31_nc@... writes:

>

> Hi everyone,

>

> I purchased 2gal of " linen mist base " in November and don't really

> feel comfortable with the answers the distributor gave me - she

> wasn't knowledgeable about her product at all, so I'd like to ask

> for your input.

>

> LINEN MIST BASE ingredients:

> deionized water

> PEG 400

> PROPYLENE GLYCOL

> dmdm hydantoin

> hampene 100

> polysorbate 20

>

> I asked if she made it onsite, she said that a chemist makes the

> formula for her company. I asked her what preservative is being

> used and she got pretty upset, then said she thinks it's the dmdm

> hydantoin. I asked about estimated shelf life and she said it's

> good indefinitely. I asked her if these were the INCI names for the

> ingredients and said she, " Huh? " . *LOL* I don't know anymore, this

> could be moonshine for all I know right now.

>

> Last week I posted a question about edible oils (glycerin, color,

> flavor extract)....would they need a preservative or not? And what

> would the estimated shelf life be? I hope I didn't offend anyone

> with that question, but I'm shooting it back out there. I've seen

> some with parabens and some without. If a preservative is needed,

> at what usage rate? I have Liquipar Oil, Germaben 2 and Germaben

> 2E...would any of those be compatible?

>

> Please help! I really appreciate your time and assistance. Special

> thanks to Angie, who, surprisingly, is still speaking to me after

> the gazillion questions I've asked her this week. Thanks Angie!

> And thanks to everyone on the site who has taken the time to read

> this and reply.

>

> Lori

Hi Lori,

You are certainly welcome to ask questions and I am happy to answer

them....if I know the answers

With your linen mist base, as we have discussed, I think this may be a case

of not choosing to use this particular supplier again. Any supplier of

cosmetic ingredients should be familiar with the ingredients in his/her

products and with INCI names (even though they may be confusing these days

Live and learn, eh?

I was hoping someone, perhaps our chemistbuds---Maurice, , or Dave,

could answer your question regarding what type of preservative should be used

in the 'edibles'. I think it is an excellent question and I don't know the

answer....I lead a very boring life So, can anyone out there give us some

pointers?

Angie

The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care

Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality

at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/27/03 8:34:38 AM Pacific Standard Time,

achil@... writes:

> I have been meaning to comment on the supplier knowing their product thing,

> which was the other part of this post. As you all know I have always been

> of

> the opinion that a supplier should know about the ingredients they sell. I

> also agree with what Jan said in that a crafter should also know what they

> are buying. After all the crafter is the person that is going to be selling

> the product.

>

> I tend to make a distinction between an ingredient and a base like the

> " linen mist base " being discussed. I don't think I would hold the sales

> person up to the same standard of knowledge for a product as I would a

> single ingredient. The linen mist base looks like a complete product with

> the exception of fragrance. This type of product could be found in a craft

> store or the craft departments of department stores. If something like this

> were to be found in a Walmart, I doubt that the sales person would know

> much

> about it.

>

>

Hi Pat and all,

Perhaps. But we aren't walmart. I think a cosmetics/ingredients supplier's

standards should be different. I know my standards are different. I make it

my business to know all that I possibly can about every product we sell at

The Herbarie (to the best of my ability)--whether it is made up of one

chemical/ingredient or several. I don't really see a 'base' as being

different. I also won't purchase a product from a manufacturer/supplier

until my questions are satisfied (which is sometimes more than they bargained

for

I don't think my standards are exceptional. To me they should be the rule,

rather than the exception.

Angie

The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care

Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality

at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

[Guest guest]

Angie wrote ....>>Any supplier of cosmetic ingredients should be familiar

with the ingredients in his/her products and with INCI names (even though

they may be confusing these days

I agree with this, I also go a step further and think it is imperative that

the purchaser of supplies become familiar with the ingredients/INCI names so

you are not buying blindly or relying completely on what a supplier tells

you. The responsibility for liability lies with you! There are several

sites on-line that have descriptions of ingredients, www.oshun.ca/info.html

has some, the FDA used to have a page titled Chemical Ingredients found in

Cosmetics. http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms This link is old so may not be

working, but you can do a search.

Another good source is Consumer's Dictionary of Cosmetic Ingredients by Ruth

Winter. This is under $20 and a great source for basic ingredient

information. We all need to ask questions occasionally - sometimes more

than occasionally But sometimes, it's knowing the right question to ask!

Do your homework first and you'll find you get much more usable information.

This Linen Mist sounds like it may be Unity? They are the only ones I'm

familiar with that used DMDM Hydantoin -- we've had their products,

including the Linen Mist at our Gathering for several years. There were no

problems with it.

Jan Flood oakridge@...

www.oakridgefarm.com

[Guest guest]

> I was hoping someone, perhaps our chemistbuds---Maurice, , or Dave,

> could answer your question regarding what type of preservative should be

used

> in the 'edibles'.

Angie, probably the reason Lori's question about edible oil was not picked

up is because it was discussed in depth 2 months ago. Just search the word

edible in the message archives and lots of hits will come up.

I have been meaning to comment on the supplier knowing their product thing,

which was the other part of this post. As you all know I have always been of

the opinion that a supplier should know about the ingredients they sell. I

also agree with what Jan said in that a crafter should also know what they

are buying. After all the crafter is the person that is going to be selling

the product.

I tend to make a distinction between an ingredient and a base like the

" linen mist base " being discussed. I don't think I would hold the sales

person up to the same standard of knowledge for a product as I would a

single ingredient. The linen mist base looks like a complete product with

the exception of fragrance. This type of product could be found in a craft

store or the craft departments of department stores. If something like this

were to be found in a Walmart, I doubt that the sales person would know much

about it.

Pat.

Peace, Joy, Serenity

House of Scents tm. Body Oils, Fragrance Oils, Incense, Candles, Soap, Etc.

pat@...

http://www.houseofscents.com/

----- Original Message -----

[Guest guest]

Hi Pat,

> I agree with you. I was expressing an opinion that I don't expect everyone

> to agree with. As far as Walmart goes, I wouldn't automatically discount

> them because one day them or a company like theirs could be your

> competition. When you grow to the point where you can't be on the phone,

> unless you are willing to pay salespeople like the larger chemical

> companies

> do, the standards you have set for yourself may be difficult to hold on to.

I like walmart--it's one of my favorite stores but I am not competing with

walmart and don't ever plan to compete with them. You're right though....I

stay so busy that I already fantasize about cloning myself Perhaps I'm

wrong about the importance of the supplier knowing the ingredients of this

linen mist?? I think the bottom line has to do with choices about the way we

do business....and of course the consumer has choices about the things they

purchase.....caveat emptor!

>

> I think the other side of the story is what you are missing. As a chemical

> supplier your expectation should be that a manufacturer can recognize the

> ingredients within a base. If a manufacturer purchases a base and needs to

> call the you later with questions like which of the ingredients is the

> preservative and are the ingredients listed using INCI Nomenclature,

> perhaps

> that manufacturer needs a little more training before selling their

> products

> to the public.

I don't think I am following you here. But if I purchase a product from any

manufacturer/supplier I do expect them to at least be familiar with the

ingredients and have some idea how they function. There's a wide range of

'who knows what' out there and it includes the larger manufacturers as well

as the small suppliers.

>

> I didn't see any arrogance from the supplier, at least nothing that was

> posted to the list. Too often people get a bad rap based on a one-sided

> story.

Perhaps arrogance is the wrong word. For a supplier to express annoyance

about being asked questions regarding how a 'base' product is preserved is

inappropriate at best. Asking how a product is preserved is a legitimate

question. Maybe I AM missing something here?

Angie

The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care

Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality

at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

[Guest guest]

> Hi Pat and all,

> Perhaps. But we aren't walmart. I think a cosmetics/ingredients

supplier's

> standards should be different. I know my standards are different. I make

it

> my business to know all that I possibly can about every product we sell at

> The Herbarie (to the best of my ability)--whether it is made up of one

> chemical/ingredient or several.

I agree with you. I was expressing an opinion that I don't expect everyone

to agree with. As far as Walmart goes, I wouldn't automatically discount

them because one day them or a company like theirs could be your

competition. When you grow to the point where you can't be on the phone,

unless you are willing to pay salespeople like the larger chemical companies

do, the standards you have set for yourself may be difficult to hold on to.

I think the other side of the story is what you are missing. As a chemical

supplier your expectation should be that a manufacturer can recognize the

ingredients within a base. If a manufacturer purchases a base and needs to

call the you later with questions like which of the ingredients is the

preservative and are the ingredients listed using INCI Nomenclature, perhaps

that manufacturer needs a little more training before selling their products

to the public.

I didn't see any arrogance from the supplier, at least nothing that was

posted to the list. Too often people get a bad rap based on a one-sided

story.

Pat.

Peace, Joy, Serenity

House of Scents tm. Body Oils, Fragrance Oils, Incense, Candles, Soap, Etc.

pat@...

http://www.houseofscents.com/

----- Original Message -----

[Guest guest]

>LINEN MIST BASE ingredients:

>deionized water

>PEG 400

>PROPYLENE GLYCOL

>dmdm hydantoin

>hampene 100

>polysorbate 20

The INCI names are

Water

PEG-8

Propylene Glycol

DMDM Hydantoin

Tetrasodium EDTA

Polysorbate 20

Did the vendor send any directions to use?

Usually, you have to mix the fragrance with the Plysorbate 20 before you add the

mixture to the base.

The preservative system is DMDM Hydantoin and Tetrasodium EDTA. I don't think

this will be an effective preservative system. You could always add Germall

Plus.

Maurice

--------------------------------------------------------

Maurice O. Hevey

Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

-------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Maurice, I can't speak to this particular product, not knowing the

manufacturer - but the mist bases I'm familiar with are a -- just add

fragrance, mix & bottle type. I've never sold them, but have worked with

them quite a bit in gatherings and never had a problem, they are easy to use

and very cost effective. I've had a small bottle of the Unity Linen Mist

base & one from RainShadow Labs, I believe, here in the shop for two years

now -- and while I've not analyzed it -- there certainly is nothing visibly

growing in it.

I still have to say, while I would hope the supplier would know what they're

selling, it's much more important that I - as the one selling to the

public - know what I'm buying, how it's used, preserved etc.

The increase in individuals selling toiletries now, reminds me of the years

right after handmade soap became popular. There were many list posts every

day saying...I've just made my first batch of soap, I'm going into business

selling it, everyone tell me everything I need to know I guess one

advantage of the pre-internet days was we were forced to seek out materials

and learn by trial and error, there were no lists to post to

Jan Flood oakridge@...

www.oakridgefarm.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Maurice,

Thank you for the INCI names.

-------------------

>Did the vendor send any directions to use?

>Usually, you have to mix the fragrance with the Plysorbate

>20 before you add the mixture to the base.

>

>The preservative system is DMDM Hydantoin and Tetrasodium EDTA. I

don't think this will be an effective preservative system. You

could always add Germall Plus.

>

> Maurice

--------------------

No, she didn't include instructions in the shipment and there are no

specific instructions on her website. There were just two

gallon-size jugs marked " LINEN MIST BASE " ...no separate bottle of

Polysorbate.

Her website states:

" Linen Mist Base (unscented/uncolored)

Add your favorite fragrance to this fabulous base to create a spray

mist for your linens. Spritz bedding between changes for freshness

or use while you iron! "

The only preservatives I have on-hand are Liquipar Oil, Germaben 2

and Germaben 2E. Couldn't I use Germaben 2 since it contains

Germall 2? According to ISP Sutton, Germaben 2 is recommended at a

level of up to 1%? What usage rate would you suggest for a

fragrance mist? Any ideas on shelf life once final product is made?

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate all your help.

Thanks,

Lori

[Guest guest]

Hi Jan,

-----------

Maurice, I can't speak to this particular product, not knowing the

manufacturer - but the mist bases I'm familiar with are a -- just add

fragrance, mix & bottle type.

-----------

That's the type I purchased - not sure who makes it (supplier

wouldn't tell me), but I just add fragrance, mix and bottle,

according to supplier.

Lori

[Guest guest]

> Perhaps arrogance is the wrong word. For a supplier to express annoyance

> about being asked questions regarding how a 'base' product is preserved is

> inappropriate at best. Asking how a product is preserved is a legitimate

> question. Maybe I AM missing something here?

Angie, asking how a product is preserved is indeed a legitimate question.

However, if you are sitting with the ingredient list in your lap it is no

longer a legitimate question. You-as a manufacturer-should know which

ingredient is the preservative. Now I realize that there are umpteen

preservative systems out there and most of us are only familiar with the

more common ones. If this is the case, then the time to ask questions is

before you purchase the product, not after.

> I don't think I am following you here. But if I purchase a product from

any

> manufacturer/supplier I do expect them to at least be familiar with the

> ingredients and have some idea how they function. There's a wide range of

> 'who knows what' out there and it includes the larger manufacturers as

well

> as the small suppliers.

I agree completely, but the reason I gave above applies here as well as

above. If you are a manufacturer, selling to the public, and you purchase a

product/base that comes with a complete ingredient list, you should know

what the ingredients are or you should have asked questions before

purchasing the base. Some people are not very good at hiding their feelings

either in person or on the phone. What you interpret as arrogance or

annoyance could very well be one of several feelings that I can think of.

Pat.

Peace, Joy, Serenity

House of Scents tm. Body Oils, Fragrance Oils, Incense, Candles, Soap, Etc.

pat@...

http://www.houseofscents.com/