RE: regarding holding back

[Guest guest]

Hi KIm and list,

My husband and I have been BOM istructors for 30 years ( 09/08/1975). and there are two easy ways to look at this topic we use when talking to engaged couples.. in a short skit.. we are engaged and giving Christmas gifrs to each other ( golf clubs for him sewing machine for me) I hate golf .. he doesn't like my sewing time so we keep part of the gift.... we negotiate and then we marry .... He tells me he loves me always and forever ... EXCEPT ... when I am fertile.... Okay .. but wait.. he only wants a maid, housekeeper... copayer sex partner... Then I tell him I love you always and forever EXCEPT when HE'S fetile..... Couples laugh but get the point ... We CHOOSE to act or not to act for the good of our spouse or family .. but when we choose to act the act is always open to the gift of life... Spiritual and the very real gift of the child.. thereby valuing both of our gifts to each other... So to ACT or Not to ACT.. That is the Choice..... the results of those acts are not ours to choose.. And as Hanna stated so well those choices effect how women are viewed and treated in the family, village and world...

Peace to all,

--

-------------- Original message --------------

I was not online yesterday and therefore read all of the discussion that transpired this morning. Regarding the “differences” between NFP and FAM, I cannot get past one idea. Some of you said you regarded the use of a condom during the fertile time to be “holding back” something from one’s spouse. While I do not disagree with this, I don’t see how avoiding during the fertile time is not also a way of “holding back”. If we leave the religious “wrongness” of condom use out and focus specifically on the psychological aspects in the couple’s relationship, I don’t see a difference between condom use and knowingly avoiding.

[Guest guest]

,

On one level you are correct that both

abstinence and contraception are a “holding back”. The crucial

difference, however, is that by abstaining you are not directly contradicting

the meaning of the sexual embrace. Sexual intercourse is the highest expression

of the unity of the spouses. It is a bodily (visible) expression of the

spiritual (invisible) reality of the oneness of the spouses united in marriage.

The integrity of that unity demands honest expression at all times, with no

exceptions. It is about not contradicting the bodily language of the person.

The body language of contracepted sex

“I give myself to you, my beloved,

just as I promised at our wedding– freely, totally, faithfully, and fruitfully

– well, sort of totally, and maybe not fruitfully, but, you know what I

mean…”

The body language of mutually agreed-to sexual

abstinence in marriage

“I give myself to you, my beloved,

just as I promised at our wedding– freely, totally, faithfully, and fruitfully.

While we have chosen non-genital ways to express that love for a time, I look forward

to our conjugal reunion. In anticipation of that, let me live my vow of love to

you in other honest ways.

It’s the difference between keeping

silent and speaking a lie. Both are “holding back”, but only one is

dishonest.

Damon

regarding " holding back "

I was not online yesterday and

therefore read all of the discussion that transpired this morning.

Regarding the “differences” between NFP and FAM, I cannot get past

one idea. Some of you said you regarded the use of a condom during the

fertile time to be “holding back” something from one’s

spouse. While I do not disagree with this, I don’t see how avoiding

during the fertile time is not also a way of “holding back”.

If we leave the religious “wrongness” of condom use out and focus

specifically on the psychological aspects in the couple’s relationship, I

don’t see a difference between condom use and knowingly avoiding.

[Guest guest]

To all:

So what happens when, cycle after cycle,

the couple disagrees as to whether they should abstain? Is the spouse that is

choosing to abstain truly doing it as a “gift of self-sacrifice” to

the other, or for selfish reasons? We’ve already concluded that “grave”

or “serious” reason to abstain might have many different

definitions to many people. I cannot imagine the question of “to act or

not to act” has a mutually agreed upon answer for both members of a

couple all the time.

Re:

regarding " holding back "

Hi KIm and list,

My husband and I have been BOM istructors for 30 years

( 09/08/1975). and there are two easy ways to look at this topic we use when

talking to engaged couples.. in a short skit.. we are engaged and giving

Christmas gifrs to each other ( golf clubs for him sewing machine for

me) I hate golf .. he doesn't like my sewing time so we keep part

of the gift.... we negotiate and then we marry .... He tells me he loves me

always and forever ... EXCEPT ... when I am fertile.... Okay .. but wait.. he

only wants a maid, housekeeper... copayer sex partner... Then I tell him I love

you always and forever EXCEPT when HE'S fetile..... Couples laugh

but get the point ... We CHOOSE to act or not to act for the good of our spouse

or family .. but when we choose to act the act is always open to the gift of

life... Spiritual and the very real gift of the child.. thereby valuing

both of our gifts to each other... So to ACT or Not to ACT.. That is the

Choice..... the results of those acts are not ours to choose.. And as Hanna

stated so well those choices effect how women are viewed and treated in

the family, village and world...

Peace to all,

--

-------------- Original message --------------

I was not online yesterday and

therefore read all of the discussion that transpired this morning.

Regarding the “differences” between NFP and FAM, I cannot get past

one idea. Some of you said you regarded the use of a condom during the

fertile time to be “holding back” something from one’s

spouse. While I do not disagree with this, I don’t see how avoiding

during the fertile time is not also a way of “holding back”.

If we leave the religious “wrongness” of condom use out and focus

specifically on the psychological aspects in the couple’s relationship, I

don’t see a difference between condom use and knowingly avoiding.

[Guest guest]

There is a difference between withholding something that is integral to the act involved and merely postponing the act. The condom "holds back" an essential ingredient of the act of coitus that must be present for it to actually be considered "complete." The state of being married, however, inevitably involves periods of time when spouses do not engage in coitus, for one reason or another. They are still considered to be engaged in the process of living out their marital vows, even when they choose to refrain from the marital embrace.

When a difference of opinion exists between spouses concerning their desire for another conception, one spouse might certainly "hold back" and even violate the demands of justice with regard to the other, but they have not definitionally changed their relationship. They are still married and their abstinence is not something inconsistent with that state, even if this unfortunate disagreement challenges their happiness as a couple. It is to be hoped that they will accept this challenge, prayerfully discern their motives, and resolve the impasse. The use of a barrier method, by contrast, changes the very nature of the act in which the spouses have engaged, and thereby distorts their marital relationship.

By analogy, the act of Eating is essentially "destroyed" or corrupted by a practice, such as bulimia, that thwarts the intrinsic meaning of having a meal in the first place. But, the nutritional pursuit of Health is not necessarily thwarted or even diminished when a person skips a meal or fasts for a day during Lent. Similarly, if you withhold chocolate chips from the act of making "chocolate chip cookies," the result is something quite different from chocolate chip cookies. On the other hand, you might just decide put off making chocolate chip cookies until later. The decisions in both cases are radically different. In the former case, you have made something else that is probably unpalatable; in the later, you have just postponed an otherwise good or morally-neutral action.

-----Original Message-----From: nfpprofessionals [mailto:nfpprofessionals ] On Behalf Of GuthmannSent: Monday, September 12, 2005 11:11 AMTo: nfpprofessionals Subject: regarding "holding back"

I was not online yesterday and therefore read all of the discussion that transpired this morning. Regarding the “differences” between NFP and FAM, I cannot get past one idea. Some of you said you regarded the use of a condom during the fertile time to be “holding back” something from one’s spouse. While I do not disagree with this, I don’t see how avoiding during the fertile time is not also a way of “holding back”. If we leave the religious “wrongness” of condom use out and focus specifically on the psychological aspects in the couple’s relationship, I don’t see a difference between condom use and knowingly avoiding.

[Guest guest]

To use your “skipping a meal”

analogy, what about the anorexic who is indeed thwarting the “pursuit of Health”,

but within the rules? He or she justifies skipping meals on a regular

basis as ok, as long as he/she is not purging like a bulimic. At what

point does “following the rules” too much become a negative thing?

regarding " holding back "

I was not online yesterday and

therefore read all of the discussion that transpired this morning.

Regarding the “differences” between NFP and FAM, I cannot get past

one idea. Some of you said you regarded the use of a condom during the

fertile time to be “holding back” something from one’s

spouse. While I do not disagree with this, I don’t see how avoiding

during the fertile time is not also a way of “holding back”.

If we leave the religious “wrongness” of condom use out and focus

specifically on the psychological aspects in the couple’s relationship, I

don’t see a difference between condom use and knowingly avoiding.

[Guest guest]

Are couples in a state of constant coition, or do they choose when to have intercourse? The conversation sounds as if most people are "driven" . If you look at statistics for frequency of intercourse, after the first year of marriage it is 8 x/month for NFP users, 6x/month for pill users... of course the distribution varies..)Kathy Stein Greenblat) From another perspective, Janet says it is never sinful to omit a morally good act. Most women know that a willingness to forgo intercourse on the man's part whether for reasons of fertility or otherwise, shows the woman that she is loved for herself and not just for her body. However, in the last two generations contraception has been taught as a norm, and not contracepting has been posited as "dropping one's guard" . this contradicts a basic biological and psychological truth. In the classic Psychology of Woman Helene Deutsch, a colleague of S. Freud, wrote "for the normal feminine woman every act of intercourse contains within it the psychological germs of a child at the unconscious level." It's still true, all the cultural overlay not-withstanding.

Hanna Klaus, M.D.

Natural Family Planning Center of Washington, D.C. and Teen STAR Program

8514 Bradmoor Drive

Bethesda, MD 20817-3810

Tel. , Fax

hannaklaus@...

http://www.teenstar.org

Why Wait? Move to EarthLink.

RE: regarding "holding back"

To all:

So what happens when, cycle after cycle, the couple disagrees as to whether they should abstain? Is the spouse that is choosing to abstain truly doing it as a “gift of self-sacrifice” to the other, or for selfish reasons? We’ve already concluded that “grave” or “serious” reason to abstain might have many different definitions to many people. I cannot imagine the question of “to act or not to act” has a mutually agreed upon answer for both members of a couple all the time.

-----Original Message-----From: nfpprofessionals [mailto:nfpprofessionals ] On Behalf Of NFPLI@...Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 10:39 AMTo: nfpprofessionals Subject: Re: regarding "holding back"

Hi KIm and list,

My husband and I have been BOM istructors for 30 years ( 09/08/1975). and there are two easy ways to look at this topic we use when talking to engaged couples.. in a short skit.. we are engaged and giving Christmas gifrs to each other ( golf clubs for him sewing machine for me) I hate golf .. he doesn't like my sewing time so we keep part of the gift.... we negotiate and then we marry .... He tells me he loves me always and forever ... EXCEPT ... when I am fertile.... Okay .. but wait.. he only wants a maid, housekeeper... copayer sex partner... Then I tell him I love you always and forever EXCEPT when HE'S fetile..... Couples laugh but get the point ... We CHOOSE to act or not to act for the good of our spouse or family .. but when we choose to act the act is always open to the gift of life... Spiritual and the very real gift of the child.. thereby valuing both of our gifts to each other... So to ACT or Not to ACT.. That is the Choice..... the results of those acts are not ours to choose.. And as Hanna stated so well those choices effect how women are viewed and treated in the family, village and world...

Peace to all,

--

-------------- Original message --------------

I was not online yesterday and therefore read all of the discussion that transpired this morning. Regarding the “differences” between NFP and FAM, I cannot get past one idea. Some of you said you regarded the use of a condom during the fertile time to be “holding back” something from one’s spouse. While I do not disagree with this, I don’t see how avoiding during the fertile time is not also a way of “holding back”. If we leave the religious “wrongness” of condom use out and focus specifically on the psychological aspects in the couple’s relationship, I don’t see a difference between condom use and knowingly avoiding.

[Guest guest]

Rules and laws are always inadequate. Laws

are made to limit injustice, not guarantee justice. They limit the negative,

but cannot alone bring the good (joy, salvation, fulfillment). Our Lord

revealed to us that only love (agape) is capable of producing these goods.

In this case, the meaning and purpose

(nature) of eating is for the good of nourishment, vitality, and health of the

person. Any intentional act against these goods is a sin. Like this third

brownie in my hand crumbling all over my keyboard… J

Damon

RE:

regarding " holding back "

To use your

“skipping a meal” analogy, what about the anorexic who is indeed

thwarting the “pursuit of Health”, but within the rules? He

or she justifies skipping meals on a regular basis as ok, as long as he/she is

not purging like a bulimic. At what point does “following the

rules” too much become a negative thing?

[Guest guest]

To all participating in the FAM/NFP discussion, I have to say that I really, really enjoyed it.

Everyone has submitted thoughtful as well as thought-provoking answers that in and of themselves are a shining example of what this list is for. By skimming the discussion and not getting caught up in the point-by-point issues, it occurred to me that the discussion participants via the answers they presented, actually illustrate the end-user difficulties you all are discussing.

It is simply this: we are all on a spiritual journey in life and are only able to assimilate, reason and teach in accordance to where we ourselves are at on that journey or have been. Your clients come to you on completely different spiritual paths than where you are, but usually not one that you all haven't been at in some point in your own lives. Personal sharing can help, and I'm sure occurs more frequently than would be discussed here, but I think there is one more tool that could be developed to provide assistance.

The different plateaus of the human spiritual journey either have been or could be tentatively classified and based on that, some guidelines could be worked up for presentation of the ethics and theology of non-contracepting--with a wide margin of deviation based on the perceptions of couple by the provider. The difficulty is of course, that the partners themselves are also on separate journeys, but I suppose you could "play to" the lower of the two.

As we all know, people can only absorb and act upon what they are spiritually open to. Quite a bit of time and energy could be saved by a provider if we had such a identifying mechanism in place, possibly something similar to the FOCUS testing that happens for engaged couples around here (but not as long!)

Just food for thought...

Rhonda Horner-Bohaty

Nebraska Catholic Conference

RE: regarding "holding back"

To use your “skipping a meal” analogy, what about the anorexic who is indeed thwarting the “pursuit of Health”, but within the rules? He or she justifies skipping meals on a regular basis as ok, as long as he/she is not purging like a bulimic. At what point does “following the rules” too much become a negative thing?

-----Original Message-----From: nfpprofessionals [mailto:nfpprofessionals ] On Behalf Of BowerSent: Monday, September 12, 2005 1:44 PMTo: nfpprofessionals Subject: RE: regarding "holding back"

There is a difference between withholding something that is integral to the act involved and merely postponing the act. The condom "holds back" an essential ingredient of the act of coitus that must be present for it to actually be considered "complete." The state of being married, however, inevitably involves periods of time when spouses do not engage in coitus, for one reason or another. They are still considered to be engaged in the process of living out their marital vows, even when they choose to refrain from the marital embrace.

When a difference of opinion exists between spouses concerning their desire for another conception, one spouse might certainly "hold back" and even violate the demands of justice with regard to the other, but they have not definitionally changed their relationship. They are still married and their abstinence is not something inconsistent with that state, even if this unfortunate disagreement challenges their happiness as a couple. It is to be hoped that they will accept this challenge, prayerfully discern their motives, and resolve the impasse. The use of a barrier method, by contrast, changes the very nature of the act in which the spouses have engaged, and thereby distorts their marital relationship.

By analogy, the act of Eating is essentially "destroyed" or corrupted by a practice, such as bulimia, that thwarts the intrinsic meaning of having a meal in the first place. But, the nutritional pursuit of Health is not necessarily thwarted or even diminished when a person skips a meal or fasts for a day during Lent. Similarly, if you withhold chocolate chips from the act of making "chocolate chip cookies," the result is something quite different from chocolate chip cookies. On the other hand, you might just decide put off making chocolate chip cookies until later. The decisions in both cases are radically different. In the former case, you have made something else that is probably unpalatable; in the later, you have just postponed an otherwise good or morally-neutral action.

-----Original Message-----From: nfpprofessionals [mailto:nfpprofessionals ] On Behalf Of GuthmannSent: Monday, September 12, 2005 11:11 AMTo: nfpprofessionals Subject: regarding "holding back"

I was not online yesterday and therefore read all of the discussion that transpired this morning. Regarding the “differences” between NFP and FAM, I cannot get past one idea. Some of you said you regarded the use of a condom during the fertile time to be “holding back” something from one’s spouse. While I do not disagree with this, I don’t see how avoiding during the fertile time is not also a way of “holding back”. If we leave the religious “wrongness” of condom use out and focus specifically on the psychological aspects in the couple’s relationship, I don’t see a difference between condom use and knowingly avoiding.

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Hanna!

I will get it from the library. Sometime ago I had run across a statistic that showed no difference essentially between the frequency of intercouse between contracepting and NFP couples but have been unable to locate that. Sometimes people just have to have numbers as they move along the growth process.

LeeHanna Klaus wrote:

Dear Lee,

I can't put my hand on the reprint, as my filing system is too haphazard, I'm sorry to say, but here is the cite from Google Scholar...You can get the library to help, no doubt!

The salience of sexuality in the early years of marriageCS Greenblat - Journal of Marriage and the Family, 1983

Hanna Klaus, M.D.

Natural Family Planning Center of Washington, D.C. and Teen STAR Program

8514 Bradmoor Drive

Bethesda, MD 20817-3810

Tel. , Fax

hannaklaus@...

http://www.teenstar.org

Why Wait? Move to EarthLink.

RE: regarding "holding back"

Dear Hanna,

thanks for your comments. Can you share the full citation from Kathy Stein Greenblat regarding the frequency of intercourse?

Lee Barron

Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.