Re: Re: TN bill--was Organic Choice-Alternative Processing

[Guest guest]

Now this is a plan....color coding.

> Hi everyone;> > This seems like a difficult question, but> I'm wondering if it would> be possible to limit which farms are allowed to sell raw dairy based> on their farming practices. For example, rather than define how many> cows a farmer could have, what about saying a farmer could only have> so many cows per acre of grazing land that they own and that cows may> not be confined for more than a certain number of hours/day? Or limit> the number of lbs of grain that could be fed, with so many months per> year having only grass fed. If there are studies that show that> coliform counts are lower in milk from grass fed cows, then this> could be the justification for setting these rules. Obviously there> could be more than just those 2, but maybe that would be a way of> culling out the bad farms that are just trying to exploit the> increased prices that they could charge for raw milk?> > Also, I remember from a very old post, that somewhere in Europe they> used to have different colored bottle tops for grass fed raw and> regular raw milk, maybe there could be something like this> incorporated?> > Finally, a question...if raw milk sales were legalized, does this>

[Guest guest]

Finally, the pragmatic view.

Thanks, Belinda.

How your regulations get applied in the Real World is how effective it's going to be. Don't make it hard on the ones you're trying to support by complicating things further with your "best thinking".

Work with the people who'll have to live with these things to iron out the wrinkles. If you get everybody's input, you'll come up with something that serves everyone.

I don't envy you here, so Good Luck.

--Terry

I'm going to put in my 2 cents here, maybe I'm in a really negative mood or something but the direction you folks are moving in with regard to the dairy "certification" would have me running in the opposite direction.There is no way I want to get into proving how much grain or pasture my animals have.There is no way I can afford to have my milk tested every day, even if we could find someplace to test it. Just getting it in the mail daily would be a hassle.Friends of ours have a confinement dairy. I don't think they want consumers coming to their farm picking up milk. They milk early in the morning and go on to do other things, their home is about 10 miles from the dairy. Larger establishments would probably not be interested in having a bunch of folks tromping in with their bottles, jugs and jars to be filled with milk.All the talk about regulation just fills me with dread and makes me hope I drop over dead before I become unable to milk my goats myself.BelindaPLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Check out these links!Midvalleyvu Farms http://www.midvalleyvu.comThe Weston A. Price Foundation: http://www.westonaprice.orgThe Untold Story of Milk http://www.drrons.com/untoldstoryofmilk.htmlPlease visit our Raw Dairy files for a wealth of information:FILES: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Database: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/databaseRecipes: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/database?method=reportRows & tbl=1Contact List: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/database?method=reportRows & tbl=2Photos: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/lst

[Guest guest]

Hello folks.....

I must interject some overviews of this thread.

1. each farm has its own ecology so no grass fed regime, or grain fed regime will fit all farms.

2. the goal is clean milk which is attainable by testing standards that are already available.

3. testing unfortunately has a time lag given all labs are now far away from the source of production

4. Mark McCaffe tests daily in order to quell the tide of State lackeys who say milk is inherently unsafe and to steam the tide of endless questions from a public who has been lead to believe that milk is unsafe.

5. we are in a phase of transition from one thought process to another, based on false information which will take time to right itself.

Meanwhile DRINK MILK FROM A FARMER YOU TRUST.

If we continue to organize around a set WAY of doing things we are falling into the same trap our forefathers were lead into 50 years ago.

Local is best!!!!! the closer you are to the ecosystem in which it is produced the more benifits you will recieve form that local product.

This raw milk movement is motivated on trust.

It will regulate itself, and even if you get sick from a farmers shoddy practices you will in most likely not die.

But it will make you look at your source, and choose a better one.

This is a long road folks, it took us 80 years to get to this point, it may take 50 to turn it around.

I hope not, but the point is to get raw milk any way possible and tell as may friends about it as possible and soon we will be able to form co/ops that serve a larger population with raw milk with many producers that adhere to certain standards.

Till then it is to costly for most farmers to test daily and change a way of feeding immeaditiatly for debt structures are already in place. Mark has over 400 cows to spread the testing cost over and markets his milk to the richest people in the world, and is the only one in the country that i know of who has access to grass 365 days a year.

Also if you are going to be purists about grass fed milk, guess what, you won't be drinking it for 6 months out of the year in most of the continental US.

You will have to eat cheese the other six months from the excess of the summer months.I don't see a wholelistic discussion of how things were long ago when everyone had access to grass fed milk and dealt with the seasons as one should,.

For now any raw milk is better than no raw milk, yes some is better than other for various reasons, but to be extremist and set standards before the raw milk industry is ready, is to end it just when people are beginning to notice.

98% of the calls I get to talk about farm share or cow share is from somebody who has 4 animals, the balance is from someone who has access to raw milk from a Holstein herd but only wants brown cow milk.

I say , look be thankful for what you have, I talk to too many people who can't get any at all.....

I thank you all for your interest and the work you all are doing to push this important portion of a persons diet forward... remember, drink early & drink often, tell a friend and when the MAN tells you to stop, tell em to go to Hell....

Your brother in arms

Tim Wightman

Clearview Acres

[Guest guest]

Hey Jill,

Hopefully, reading my bill should answer this question. I posted it

already. But short answer, no it doesn't mean that farmers could no

longer sell directly to consumers. It means they can. No middle man.

jms4548 wrote:

Finally, a question...if raw milk sales were legalized, does this

mean that farmers would no longer sell directly to consumers and

instead would sell to a middle-man the way it works for pasteurized

milk now? If so, wouldn't this ultimately harm the farmers that work

so hard to give us quality milk now by decreasing there profits?

Thanks!

Jill

[Guest guest]

Hey ,

I think it is a brilliant idea as well. But not being a farmer I have

no idea how many cows/goats/sheep/buffalo you should put on 1 acre of

good quality grass. These are grazing/foraging ruminants that all can

be milked and I would imagine the numbers would all be different. Is

there a standard out there anywhere that perhaps could be cited? I

think that would be useful for all the wanna be (and maybe even

current) farmers anyway.

Anton wrote:

@@@@@@@@@@@

I think this is a fantastic idea. After all, the relationship

between available pasturage and herd size could be very easily

quantified, and this would provide a clear incentive for farmers to

do the right thing. The key would be to allow such farmers to have

a major advantage in terms of the marketing and sales of their

product, like unrestricted farm-direct sales and advertising

freedom.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

[Guest guest]

I can sure see why this seems like an obviously good idea.

BUT :-)

Acres does not equal grass. How many acres per AUM (animal unit months) is

very dependent on the forage that is present, the soil condition, the

average rainfall, whether it's irrigated or not, and the time of year.

For instance, my heavily irrigated smooth brome and native grass pasture

requires 2 acres per AUM. It will keep them in prime health from mid April

- November, requiring hay the remainder of the year, and give enough stubble

height to overwinter well and provide entertainment value during the winter.

If it were not irrigated, that would drop to about 10 acres per animal, as

long as there was no drought. Irrigating less aggressively than I do would

put it somewhere between the two. The pasture right next to mine, which

has not been improved and is not irrigated is about a 20 acre per AUM piece

of land. Then theres another one that is within a quarter mile of me that

has been abused, and how has only fox-tail, thistle, and a few toxic weeds

that even though it's 40 acres, couldn't support a single cow of any

quality for more than about a week. Then theres a 130 acre place in a

neighboring county that has been used for a feed lot over the winter that

has *not a single* blade of grass on it.

There are very few places in the country where you could put more than one

cow on an acre of land without supplemental feed for any length of time and

not overgraze it beyond hope or starve the animal in short order.

There are guidelines, and your local county extension agent probably has

them, but they are really only a starting point, and largely meaningless as

a way to make assumptions about what a critter is fed.

Lee Anne

-- Re: Re: TN bill--was Organic Choice-Alternative

Processing

Hey ,

I think it is a brilliant idea as well. But not being a farmer I have no

idea how many cows/goats/sheep/buffalo you should put on 1 acre of good

quality grass. These are grazing/foraging ruminants that all can be milked

and I would imagine the numbers would all be different. Is there a standard

out there anywhere that perhaps could be cited? I think that would be useful

for all the wanna be (and maybe even current) farmers anyway.

Anton wrote:

@@@@@@@@@@@

I think this is a fantastic idea. After all, the relationship

between available pasturage and herd size could be very easily

quantified, and this would provide a clear incentive for farmers to

do the right thing. The key would be to allow such farmers to have

a major advantage in terms of the marketing and sales of their

product, like unrestricted farm-direct sales and advertising

freedom.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

Check out these links!

Midvalleyvu Farms http://www.midvalleyvu.com

The Weston A. Price Foundation: http://www.westonaprice.org

The Untold Story of Milk http://www.drrons.com/untoldstoryofmilk.html

Please visit our Raw Dairy files for a wealth of information:

FILES: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

Database: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/database

Recipes: http://health.groups.yahoo

com/group/RawDairy/database?method=reportRows & tbl=1

Contact List: http://health.groups.yahoo

com/group/RawDairy/database?method=reportRows & tbl=2

Photos: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/lst

[Guest guest]

Okay, thanks for that clarification Lee Anne. that makes sense.

Shoot. Kinda wish it didn't make so much sense! :-) So really you are

saying that unless you have great grass and soil on your land there

can't be any kind of set standard. But something I heard you imply was

that if it's excellent soil and grass, then perhaps you could put

maybe...2 cows per acre? Now I'm wondering for my own info only since

we are thinking of buying a 10 acre farm with about 8 acres of grazing

on beautiful rich grass with good soil.

Lee Anne Dobos wrote:

I can sure see why this seems like an obviously good idea.

BUT :-)

Acres does not equal grass. How many acres per AUM (animal unit

months) is

very dependent on the forage that is present, the soil condition, the

average rainfall, whether it's irrigated or not, and the time of year.

[Guest guest]

It depends completely on the type of grass that is growing, what your

average rainfall is, how long the growing season is, how you manage the

grass.

2 cows per acre? Sorry, probably not. :-)

Check with your county extension for the averages in your area. Make them

come do a site visit with you and give you their opinion. You are paying

them, make them work!

Lee Anne

-- Re: Re: TN bill--was Organic Choice-Alternative

Processing

Okay, thanks for that clarification Lee Anne. that makes sense. Shoot. Kinda

wish it didn't make so much sense! :-) So really you are saying that unless

you have great grass and soil on your land there can't be any kind of set

standard. But something I heard you imply was that if it's excellent soil

and grass, then perhaps you could put maybe...2 cows per acre? Now I'm

wondering for my own info only since we are thinking of buying a 10 acre

farm with about 8 acres of grazing on beautiful rich grass with good soil.