Guest guest Posted February 8, 2003 Report Share Posted February 8, 2003 Usually, I just lurk and learn, but I got an e-mail from my insurance company yesterday that has totally blown me away. I make soaps, bath products and a few lotions, mostly for a local (Canadian) market. I was hoping to get a web page up and running in the next few months, but I've run into a BIG glitch. Apparently the insurance I had last year - which runs out on February 22 and cost me about $500.00 per year will now cost me between $3,000.00 and $5,000.00 per year. If I want to just have my premises and product insured, no liability, they will renew for $600.00 per year. Are there any other Canadian folk out there who have run into this problem, and what did you do? Thanks for any info Judy McLay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 In a message dated 2/9/2003 1:33:16 PM Central Standard Time, jwittenbrook@... writes: > if someone is foolish enough to sell cream without a preservative, they > deserve to be sued. Amen ... or make claims in ignorance, and not just because we work hard and they didn't, but why we work hard to comply ... to do no harm. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 I recently had an attorney in one of my soap making classes. She told me about a lawsuit that she recently worked on against a small toiletry maker. I have often seen people at craft shows selling lotions and creams without preservatives, and also selling products that make claims etc. It's only a matter of time before we're going to see lawsuits as a result of these practices. ly, if someone is foolish enough to sell cream without a preservative, they deserve to be sued. It's a shame because there are so many of us working hard to make sure we make safe products and handle everything such as labeling properly. Unfortunately, we all end up paying for the actions of those who are ignorant. Joanne Re: liability insurance - Canada Have the large cosmetic companies and their lobbyists put pressure on the insurance companies to force the " little guys " into going out of business....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 Joan, are you in Canada? CS > I recently had an attorney in one of my soap making classes. She told me > about a lawsuit that she recently worked on against a small toiletry > maker. I have often seen people at craft shows selling lotions and > creams without preservatives, and also selling products that make claims > etc. It's only a matter of time before we're going to see lawsuits as a > result of these practices. ly, if someone is foolish enough to sell > cream without a preservative, they deserve to be sued. It's a shame > because there are so many of us working hard to make sure we make safe > products and handle everything such as labeling properly. Unfortunately, > we all end up paying for the actions of those who are ignorant. > Joanne > > Re: liability insurance - Canada > > Have the large cosmetic companies and their lobbyists put pressure on > the > insurance companies to force the " little guys " into going out of > business....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 >> if someone is foolish enough to sell cream without a preservative, they >> deserve to be sued. > >Amen ... or make claims in ignorance, and not just because we work hard >and they didn't, but why we work hard to comply ... to do no harm. quotes like these make me feel extra bad for begging people to sell me their creams without preservatives but so far i've had bad luck with my own lotions, so oh well...one must do what they must do. ~risa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 > I recently had an attorney in one of my soap making classes. She told me > about a lawsuit that she recently worked on against a small toiletry > maker. Hi List, I know VERY little about insurance, liability, etc, but wanted to throw a question/comment out there on this subject... As most of us know, here in the US cosmetic manufacturers should be following the Good Manufacturing Practices Guidelines (as well as getting lotions and other products challenge tested). IMO, working from our kitchens makes it somewhat impossible to follow the GMP's to the fullest (my main concern is the part about having a designated area for food and drinks. This leads me to believe that a kitchen is automatically NOT in accordance with GMP's). Is any insurance company really going to pay out in the event of a lawsuit if they find that you are not following the GMP's?? Same with challenge testing... if you're not getting your products challenge tested according to FDA guidelines, are they going to pay out if someone ends up suing you becuase they got an infection from your products? My limited understanding of insurance companies is that they do whatever they can to avoid paying. One insurance agent desribed to me that in the case of something like this, one would need to take out " malpractice insurance " , and I can't even imagine how much that must cost. I'm certainly not trying to imply that all homecrafters are not following GMP's, but I DO wonder if perhaps we are kidding ourselves about how much protection we really have with liability insurance?? Any thoughts? ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 rpicard2002@... wrote > I'm certainly not trying to imply that all homecrafters are not > following GMP's, but I DO wonder if perhaps we are kidding ourselves > about how much protection we really have with liability insurance?? Business' get liability insurance to limit risk. The insurance companies know a great deal about the types of business they insure and the amount of risk they take on. Like all business' insurance companies need to make a profit. If they find they are getting too many claims from a particular segment of their business, they will drop that segment without a second thought. So, to answer your question, unless you lie on the application, Insurance companies pay out if there is a claim. You purchase liability for that reason. Most serious business people are going to follow rules of their industry and are also going do all in their power to put out a safe product. There will always be the exception; people that think they can buck the system, that is a cost of doing business that everyone ends up paying for. I believe you can put out a safe product from a kitchen. Obviously, you can't be preparing dinner the same time that you are making a batch of lotion. It may be a little more time consuming to work from a kitchen, but it can be done. There seems to be a misconception that the FDA requires challenge testing on products; this is not the case, the FDA only requires that you put out a safe product. Logically a challenge test would seem to be the best way to do this, however, we have suggested other methods on the list. My limited understanding of insurance > companies is that they do whatever they can to avoid paying. One > insurance agent desribed to me that in the case of something like > this, one would need to take out " malpractice insurance " , and I > can't even imagine how much that must cost. When it comes to paying out for liability most insurance companies are pretty good. As for the agent you talked to, he either didn't know what he was talking about or there just wasn't a meeting of the minds in what you were attempting to get across. Pat. Peace, Joy, Serenity House of Scents tm. Body Oils, Fragrance Oils, Incense, Candles, Soap, Etc. pat@... http://www.houseofscents.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 , household insurance covers only household effects - my policy makes that quite explicit, as did a broker friend. It does not cover business effects. Now, I'm sure someone out there has claimed them and gotten away with it, but I do know of several people (not soapers) who had home businesses without insurance and did not get paidout on business related items that were stolen. > I would think your household insurance would cover fire theft and such while > the goods are in your house. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 In a message dated 2/9/2003 5:42:57 PM Central Standard Time, lupa@... writes: > quotes like these make me feel extra bad for begging people to sell me their > creams without preservatives but so far i've had bad luck with my own > lotions, so oh well...one must do what they must do SOME items need no preservative, but that is rare. I also prefer none but, if I'm buying anything that over time will grow beasties, I'd rather have it safe. Most people won't deal with using water and oil phases separately on their skin, but I will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 I believe that most insurance companies are pretty good too...having said that..I think most people who buy insurance policies...whatever kind, (liability, disability, life etc) have no clue exactly what they are buying. To know exactly what you are buying you must read every single word of the policy..plus all addendums and updates...and you must understand the implications of all those words..and how they are interpretted by the insurer..Most people don't do this and most people get a surprise when the crunch comes. I know I've learned from my errors with various insurance policies. At this point..with insurance companies on such a tight budget, I'd never sign on the dotted line..or part with a nickle without having my lawyer really survey the whole of the policy. The I'd make a list of questions that I would want answered (in writing & signed by the insurer). One of those questions would be will they pay legal costs of law suits and cover any claims of non challenged, made in the home products? Why waste your money buying empty policies that don't protect you. Better to have all the answers, be them good or be them bad, before buying the policy. If an insurance company won't answer those questions and sign their answers......I'd ask why? > rpicard2002@... wrote > > I'm certainly not trying to imply that all homecrafters are not > > following GMP's, but I DO wonder if perhaps we are kidding ourselves > > about how much protection we really have with liability insurance?? > > Business' get liability insurance to limit risk. The insurance companies > know a great deal about the types of business they insure and the amount of > risk they take on. Like all business' insurance companies need to make a > profit. If they find they are getting too many claims from a particular > segment of their business, they will drop that segment without a second > thought. > > So, to answer your question, unless you lie on the application, Insurance > companies pay out if there is a claim. You purchase liability for that > reason. Most serious business people are going to follow rules of their > industry and are also going do all in their power to put out a safe product. > There will always be the exception; people that think they can buck the > system, that is a cost of doing business that everyone ends up paying for. > > I believe you can put out a safe product from a kitchen. Obviously, you > can't be preparing dinner the same time that you are making a batch of > lotion. It may be a little more time consuming to work from a kitchen, but > it can be done. > > There seems to be a misconception that the FDA requires challenge testing on > products; this is not the case, the FDA only requires that you put out a > safe product. Logically a challenge test would seem to be the best way to do > this, however, we have suggested other methods on the list. > > My limited understanding of insurance > > companies is that they do whatever they can to avoid paying. One > > insurance agent desribed to me that in the case of something like > > this, one would need to take out " malpractice insurance " , and I > > can't even imagine how much that must cost. > > When it comes to paying out for liability most insurance companies are > pretty good. As for the agent you talked to, he either didn't know what he > was talking about or there just wasn't a meeting of the minds in what you > were attempting to get across. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 >>You can get a darn good idea by just reading the declaration page. However,I think it is good policy to read the complete policy and familiarize yourself with the various terms. Good advice Pat , plus -- the absolute, very first thing to ask/read is -- what do they exclude? !!! Jan Flood oakridge@... www.oakridgefarm.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 Well, I'm thinking about the minimum premium Judy mentioned and the small revenue of my company and the two just don't go together. The company is already a limited liability corporation. So what if we did this: -talked to a lawyer about putting the company in my husband's name because the house is in my name -put aside a bit of money each year for unknown legal expenses -challenge test products with water content and aerobic plate count each batch. What am I missing? Anything? Sue in Canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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