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Re: Help with Formulation - #2

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In a message dated 2/6/03 7:05:28 PM Pacific Standard Time,

info@... writes:

> This customer wants a clear jelly-like soap (doesn't have to be " real "

> soap). It needs to be about the consistency of a carbomer-type gel, but

> have surfactant qualities (can be used for washing and by kids in tub).

>

> I primarily make " real " soaps, so don't have a lot of familiarity with

> other surfactants. Help!

>

> I purchased as very thick " all purpose cleansing gel " base from a vendor,

> who suggested trying to mix that and a clear glycerine soap. That didn't

> work ... the gel thinned out and the glycerine soap sort of separated ...

> and the whole thing got very rubbery.

>

> I tried using a carbomer (purchased from a while back) and TEA,

> making a thick gel and adding the cleansing gel base, but there was

> something can caused the cleansing gel base to thin out. I tried adding

> the carbomer to the gel base and then mixing in (slightly diluted) TEA, but

> the whole thing got very thin. There's obviously some internal reaction

> going on that I don't undertand.

>

> Angie suggested Crothix (sp?) as a thickener, but I'm not sure what to

> choose for the surfactant.

>

> Suggestions? Comments? Y'all's expertise would be greatly appreciated!

>

> Marie

>

> Marie Gale

> Chandler's Soaps

> www.chandlerssoaps.com

>

Hi Marie and All,

I know you can come up with a product that this person thinks he/she wants,

but when you do will they actually like it? I know the crothix will thicken

surfactant based systems, but if it is used at a high percentage I don't know

that it would be very desirable. The same with other thickeners. The

gums/starches---like xanthan, UltraMaize, GuarSilk, guar gum---will thicken

and form a " gel " as we've discussed, but at a very high percentage--I just

don't know if I would like using them. So, I think something will be

compromised to make this sort of a product. But that's just my

opinion....maybe the chemists have a good solution/suggestion.

Angie

PS And when you do find the exact consistency you want, keep in mind the

fo/eo will very often significantly change the viscosity. When making

products that are made from primarily surfactants (shampoos/body wash, etc.),

it is important to formulate with the specific fo/eo in mind.

The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care

Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality

at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

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The problem with using liquid soap, or grated soap in a product like that is

two fold.

1. who wants to sit in high ph (9-10) solution of soap?

2. Soap won't bubble like a surfactant.

If I were making that, I'd definately use a mild surfactant for the " soap "

part.

Another great possibility would be fumed silica. Its possible to gel a

surfactant...along with a bit of TRO and get a thick gel that is scoopable

and bubbles like mad..the tro softens the skin.

cathysutton

Subject: Re: Help with Formulation - #2

> This site has a recipe for bubble bath jelly:

>

> http://www.stretcher.com/stories/00/001030g.cfm

>

> HTH

>

> Merin

>

> > This customer wants a clear jelly-like soap (doesn't have to be " real "

> soap). It needs to be about the consistency of a carbomer-type gel, but

> have surfactant qualities (can be used for washing and by kids in tub).

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You could always make up your surfacant blend using whichever you prefer for

the cleansing part, thin it if necessary - then use Cab-O-Sil to gel it.

That works great if you don't mind using the silica in the product (I use a

pharmaceutical grade). Just be sure you don't inhale it :) I can send you

a small amount to try if you like. mmmm, maybe I'll do that later today and

see how it turns out.

Jan Flood oakridge@...

www.oakridgefarm.com

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Thanks, all, for your suggestions. A few more...

Angie, I'll order some crothix and see if that will work. I know it may not

get the highest quality ... but this customer is looking for a " novelty "

item, so as long as it is reasonably workable (right consistency with color

and scent and bubbles a lot!) I'm not too worried.

Jan, If you do try it, please let me know what happens. If you have some

Cab-O-Sil I can try, contact me off-list. What is the supplier for that?

Sherry, Good suggestion on the liquid soap, but I don't want to use actual

" soap " because, well, honestly, it's too much work! I'd rather buy a mild

surfactant and go from there.

, fumed silica sounds interesting ... can you tell me more about it?

Where can I get it and how is it used (or where I can find that info)?

Also, what is TRO? You sound so SURE of a gelled surfactant with tons of

bubbles!!

And Merin, while I'm getting all this info, I'll try the recipe you linked

to ... may gelatin will work! That would be simple, wouldn't it!

(if this should go off list from here, please feel free to e-mail me

directly at mgale @ chandlerssoaps.com)

I really appreciate this help!

Marie

Marie Gale

Chandler's Soaps

www.chandlerssoaps.com

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Hi Marie..

Cabosil is fumed silica..Cabot puts it out and its pretty amazing stuff.

TRO is sulphated castor oil..water dispersable.

I've been testing it for the last few weeks..and here's what I've come up with:

To make 200grams.

surfactant..(I used bioterge 804 which is a blend) 100g

TRO 100g

Cabosil 6g

polysorbate 20 2 g

Put surfactant in a tall beaker. Add cabosil and mix with stick blender for

approx 3 minutes. Add Polysorbate20.

--

That was a test batch and I didn't add any EO or preservative or colour...If I

was going to ..I would add the EO, preservative and colour with the

surfactant..then proceed as above. I found 3% cabosil and 1% polysorbate make a

stiff gel. You need a fair bit of Fragrance for this stuff...

Have fun.

Thanks, all, for your suggestions. A few more...

Angie, I'll order some crothix and see if that will work. I know it may not

get the highest quality ... but this customer is looking for a " novelty "

item, so as long as it is reasonably workable (right consistency with color

and scent and bubbles a lot!) I'm not too worried.

Jan, If you do try it, please let me know what happens. If you have some

Cab-O-Sil I can try, contact me off-list. What is the supplier for that?

Sherry, Good suggestion on the liquid soap, but I don't want to use actual

" soap " because, well, honestly, it's too much work! I'd rather buy a mild

surfactant and go from there.

, fumed silica sounds interesting ... can you tell me more about it?

Where can I get it and how is it used (or where I can find that info)?

Also, what is TRO? You sound so SURE of a gelled surfactant with tons of

bubbles!!

And Merin, while I'm getting all this info, I'll try the recipe you linked

to ... may gelatin will work! That would be simple, wouldn't it!

(if this should go off list from here, please feel free to e-mail me

directly at mgale @ chandlerssoaps.com)

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Hi ,

I'm getting some Cabosil from and TRO is on order, so I'll try your

formula.

I assume that the Cabosil gels the surfactant ... what roles do the tro and

PS-20 play in the overall formulation? (feel? stability? lather?)

Appreciate the help!

Marie

Marie Gale

Chandler's Soaps

www.chandlerssoaps.com

> Hi Marie..

>

> Cabosil is fumed silica..Cabot puts it out and its pretty amazing stuff.

> TRO is sulphated castor oil..water dispersable.

>

> I've been testing it for the last few weeks..and here's what I've come up

with:

>

> To make 200grams.

>

> surfactant..(I used bioterge 804 which is a blend) 100g

> TRO 100g

> Cabosil 6g

> polysorbate 20 2 g

>

> Put surfactant in a tall beaker. Add cabosil and mix with stick blender

for approx 3 minutes. Add Polysorbate20.

> --

> That was a test batch and I didn't add any EO or preservative or

colour...If I was going to ..I would add the EO, preservative and colour

with the surfactant..then proceed as above. I found 3% cabosil and 1%

polysorbate make a stiff gel. You need a fair bit of Fragrance for this

stuff...

>

> Have fun.

>

>

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Marie, here's some thoughts using the Cab-O-Sil. Interesting :) For two oz

product....I used 30% surfactant blend...70% water, yellow coloring, fo and

blended. It took 3grms of silica to " gel " this mix.

This made a light " cake frosting " texture rather than a clear gel. I tried

not to make bubbles while I was stirring and I know you can make clear gels

using the silica & oils so assume it has to do with the surfactant. I'll

leave it sitting to see what happens, but was pleasant to wash with, light

texture and nice lather.

Next, to 1oz product I added a little surfactant based pearlizer -- very

nice, gave it an opaque, pearly creaminess I really liked. It's now a pale

yellow, whipped cream looking mixture. In fact, reminds me of the whipped

cream soap....same general look and texture but without all that stearic

acid. This may not be what your client is looking for but I like it a lot :)

ISP has a product I use and like, Stabalize QM. It will thicken, but don't

know offhand how it would work with the surfactant.

Jan Flood oakridge@...

www.oakridgefarm.com

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Marie and all,

Please don't take this off list. I've really enjoyed reading this thread!

I want to see what works and what doesn't for you. Don't leave us all

hanging!! (smile)

I have deleted more posts from this list in the past 2-3 weeks than in the

entire 18+ months that I've been here. I'm thrilled to see these posts

here!!

Lezlee

Simple Soothings

(if this should go off list from here, please feel free to e-mail me

directly at mgale @ chandlerssoaps.com)

I really appreciate this help!

Marie

Marie Gale

Chandler's Soaps

www.chandlerssoaps.com

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To answer you're questions Marie....

The cabosil gels all of it together..including the EO. So be sure to combine

them all together before adding the cabosil. (other words..add the surfactant

+TRO + EO+ colour before cabosil)

After you add 3% cabosil...You mix it thoroughly.. With this fumed silica, the

trick is thorough mixing..You cannot really over mix it..(well maybe you could

but your arm would fall off first) I used a stick blender and it works well.

Once you add the polysorbate 20...it will instantly thicken to the point where

its really hard to add anything else. (one exception to this is for salt

scrubs...which I'm now using the fumed silica for...I add the salt after the gel

occurs)

The polysorbate 20 kicks the gel up 300 notches..LOL

The TRO is to give a slinky feel in the bath. No oily tub, and no oil floating

on top. So you end up with bubbles +bath oil all in one.

The fumed silica works by encapsulating the oil molecules, or surfactant

molecules pushing and holding them apart making a gel. It will also make bath

salts flow...not clumb..by the same process...(encapsulating each grain and

keeping it separate.) There is great literature available from Croda, and

Maurice has good info on it too...

Be forewarned though..fumed silica is a like fly-away powder. 1 tablespoon

heaped as high as possible barely weighs a gram. So you can imagine how much

volume 6 grams takes up...(it will fill an 10 fluid oz cup)

CS

Hi ,

I'm getting some Cabosil from and TRO is on order, so I'll try your

formula.

I assume that the Cabosil gels the surfactant ... what roles do the tro and

PS-20 play in the overall formulation? (feel? stability? lather?)

Appreciate the help!

Marie

Marie Gale

Chandler's Soaps

www.chandlerssoaps.com

> Hi Marie..

>

> Cabosil is fumed silica..Cabot puts it out and its pretty amazing stuff.

> TRO is sulphated castor oil..water dispersable.

>

> I've been testing it for the last few weeks..and here's what I've come up

with:

>

> To make 200grams.

>

> surfactant..(I used bioterge 804 which is a blend) 100g

> TRO 100g

> Cabosil 6g

> polysorbate 20 2 g

>

> Put surfactant in a tall beaker. Add cabosil and mix with stick blender

for approx 3 minutes. Add Polysorbate20.

> --

> That was a test batch and I didn't add any EO or preservative or

colour...If I was going to ..I would add the EO, preservative and colour

with the surfactant..then proceed as above. I found 3% cabosil and 1%

polysorbate make a stiff gel. You need a fair bit of Fragrance for this

stuff...

>

> Have fun.

>

>

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Nymphaea Soaps, Etc.

www.nymphaeasoap.com

Re: Help with Formulation - #2

Hi ,

I'm getting some Cabosil from and TRO is on order, so I'll try your

formula.

I assume that the Cabosil gels the surfactant ... what roles do the tro and

PS-20 play in the overall formulation? (feel? stability? lather?)

Appreciate the help!

Marie

Marie Gale

Chandler's Soaps

www.chandlerssoaps.com

> Hi Marie..

>

> Cabosil is fumed silica..Cabot puts it out and its pretty amazing stuff.

> TRO is sulphated castor oil..water dispersable.

>

> I've been testing it for the last few weeks..and here's what I've come up

with:

>

> To make 200grams.

>

> surfactant..(I used bioterge 804 which is a blend) 100g

> TRO 100g

> Cabosil 6g

> polysorbate 20 2 g

>

> Put surfactant in a tall beaker. Add cabosil and mix with stick blender

for approx 3 minutes. Add Polysorbate20.

> --

> That was a test batch and I didn't add any EO or preservative or

colour...If I was going to ..I would add the EO, preservative and colour

with the surfactant..then proceed as above. I found 3% cabosil and 1%

polysorbate make a stiff gel. You need a fair bit of Fragrance for this

stuff...

>

> Have fun.

>

>

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