Guest guest Posted July 22, 2006 Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 Pardon my ignorance: I'm very new to this field. What would I need to do in terms of NF in order to assess this man? Glad I asked, Denver Reply-To: braintrainer To: <braintrainer >Subject: RE: Re: puzzling frontalDate: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 18:40:39 -0600 Did you do an assessment? Foxx -----Original Message-----From: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf Of gary martinSent: Friday, July 21, 2006 1:54 PMTo: braintrainer Subject: RE: Re: puzzling frontal I have a 60 year old gentleman who came in with recent onset, left sided, trigeminal neuralgia pain, unrelieved by modest doses of Neurontin and some relief with xylocaine ointment. I've tried T3-T4 with wide inhibits (a la Othmer) and 13-15 reward. He has felt some mild improvement after 6 sessions, but I'm wondering if anyone has other treatment protocols for this disorder that have been effective. Or do we just need to be patient with this protocol? Thanx in advance for any help, M.D. Denver Reply-To: braintrainer To: braintrainer Subject: Re: puzzling frontalDate: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 16:19:36 -0000 You might want to run this one past drgeorgegreen. His coherence protocol is superb. It simultaneously reduces beta coherence and reduced amplitudes by rewarding the sepatation between 6-12 coherence with beta. >> So....nobody answered!!!> What I settled on in my own head for the guy is F4/A2/g: inhibit 15-38hz, reward 6-12hz. EC. hopefully that will break up the beta coherence too.> > > puzzling frontal> > > > I've done a 2nd assessment after 25 EEG sessions on a 20yo who's main complaint now is "not being able to think". Other issues that we have resolved were sleep onset and quality, and anxiety.> > What puzzles me is that his frontals have gotten worse: amplitudes higher all over, worse high coherence in 12-38hz range.> He had very little theta, and a whole lot of beta, even eyes closed for the first assessment, so we've done the following for the frontals:> F4/A2: reward 6.5-10hz, inhibit 15-38hz, EC> then F3///F4 Alpha/Beta Symmetry> also some nir HEG and pirHEG, which he didn't notice an improvement from.> > The frontal 6-10hz has come up and the 10-12 come down, so that's an improvement.> BUT the 15-19 is now the highest amplitude of the whole EC spectrum. The beta has come up 2u, and steps down Eo and task.> > Now his frontals look like this: > > L/R Delta 17/16%> Theta 18.3/19.5%> Alpha 20/20%> LoBeta 10.8/10.8> Beta 21.9/21.5%> HB 8.9/8.8%> everything comes down EO and Task, with the exception of the delta, goes up with task, and we were real careful about eye blink, and I artifacted it too.> > So my real question is, how to deal with that 15-19hz, that also has coherence of 59% ?> Since I've already tried inhibiting it on the right, and doing the alpha/beta symmetry to no effect, what's next?> He doesn't seem to have 'enough' theta, so I don't want to squash that.> > 10-12hz at PZ is a whomping 26u, so I'll be working on that too. Glad I looked!! We have brought the 10-12 at P3 and P4 down 2u from 18 to 16u. PRoshi has been helping with that.> > Thanks for your help1> > I will go back to some nirHEG...but I wonder if that will help the Beta?> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2006 Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 Surely someone else will respond to this inquiry. You may make brief sequential recordings (1 minute eyes closed, 1 eyes open, 1 at task) at various 10/20 sites then look at different views of the data in Excel in the TLC assessment available for free at the Brain-trainer website. http://www.brain-trainer.com/tlc_assessment/assessment_download.html You'll find instructions among these files, and people on this list will help you if you have need. Please let us know how your work progresses with this man. I know someone who suffers with this, and she would be interested to know if neurofeedback is helpful. Rah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2006 Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 Go to Pete's site at http://www.brain-trainer.com/tlc_assessment/assessment_download.html and you can download for FREE. There you will find information about the assessment. You will need BioExplorer program to preform the assessment. I have attached a copy of an assessment that was discussed on this list so you can see what the results will look like. You'll need to learn to read these. Since you are very new to this field, may I suggest that you consider taking a couple of Pete's classes. You can also search these archives for questions you may have. I found nothing. Maybe after this weekend someone will comment on this for you. It gets kind of quiet on list during weekends There is no "one size fits all" type protocols Dudley For those that are not familiar with this problem: trigeminal neuralgia. A painful condition caused by a disturbance in the function of the trigeminal nerve, which carries sensation from your face to your brain. The pain is similar to an electric shock. On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 20:02:42 -0600 "gary martin" writes: Pardon my ignorance: I'm very new to this field. What would I need to do in terms of NF in order to assess this man? Glad I asked, Denver Reply-To: braintrainer To: <braintrainer >Subject: RE: Re: puzzling frontalDate: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 18:40:39 -0600 Did you do an assessment? Foxx -----Original Message-----From: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf Of gary martinSent: Friday, July 21, 2006 1:54 PMTo: braintrainer Subject: RE: Re: puzzling frontal I have a 60 year old gentleman who came in with recent onset, left sided, trigeminal neuralgia pain, unrelieved by modest doses of Neurontin and some relief with xylocaine ointment. I've tried T3-T4 with wide inhibits (a la Othmer) and 13-15 reward. He has felt some mild improvement after 6 sessions, but I'm wondering if anyone has other treatment protocols for this disorder that have been effective. Or do we just need to be patient with this protocol? Thanx in advance for any help, M.D. Denver Reply-To: braintrainer To: braintrainer Subject: Re: puzzling frontalDate: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 16:19:36 -0000 You might want to run this one past drgeorgegreen. His coherence protocol is superb. It simultaneously reduces beta coherence and reduced amplitudes by rewarding the sepatation between 6-12 coherence with beta. >> So....nobody answered!!!> What I settled on in my own head for the guy is F4/A2/g: inhibit 15-38hz, reward 6-12hz. EC. hopefully that will break up the beta coherence too.> > > puzzling frontal> > > > I've done a 2nd assessment after 25 EEG sessions on a 20yo who's main complaint now is "not being able to think". Other issues that we have resolved were sleep onset and quality, and anxiety.> > What puzzles me is that his frontals have gotten worse: amplitudes higher all over, worse high coherence in 12-38hz range.> He had very little theta, and a whole lot of beta, even eyes closed for the first assessment, so we've done the following for the frontals:> F4/A2: reward 6.5-10hz, inhibit 15-38hz, EC> then F3///F4 Alpha/Beta Symmetry> also some nir HEG and pirHEG, which he didn't notice an improvement from.> > The frontal 6-10hz has come up and the 10-12 come down, so that's an improvement.> BUT the 15-19 is now the highest amplitude of the whole EC spectrum. The beta has come up 2u, and steps down Eo and task.> > Now his frontals look like this: > > L/R Delta 17/16%> Theta 18.3/19.5%> Alpha 20/20%> LoBeta 10.8/10.8> Beta 21.9/21.5%> HB 8.9/8.8%> everything comes down EO and Task, with the exception of the delta, goes up with task, and we were real careful about eye blink, and I artifacted it too.> > So my real question is, how to deal with that 15-19hz, that also has coherence of 59% ?> Since I've already tried inhibiting it on the right, and doing the alpha/beta symmetry to no effect, what's next?> He doesn't seem to have 'enough' theta, so I don't want to squash that.> > 10-12hz at PZ is a whomping 26u, so I'll be working on that too. Glad I looked!! We have brought the 10-12 at P3 and P4 down 2u from 18 to 16u. PRoshi has been helping with that.> > Thanks for your help1> > I will go back to some nirHEG...but I wonder if that will help the Beta?> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2006 Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 In this puzzler can someone explain how to see the delta at P4 on the maps page that everyone else sees? I see frontal delta and P4 alpha, but not more alpha on the left. I must be interpreting this incorrectly. In the back there is 2-4hz in the 12-15% range increasing most on the left at task. Is that not correct? Here is the link to the original post for this puzzler: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/braintrainer/message/11569 Rah I have attached a copy of an assessment that was discussed on this list so you can see what the results will look like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2006 Report Share Posted July 23, 2006 Rah, Are you reading the key at the right that gives the color code for %s? I see yellows (% in 30s) at P4 for the 2-4 Hz, and for 4-6 Hz at P4, I see red surrounded by pink. If you see the same colors, your interpretation must be skewed ;-) You may be interpreting by color intensity instead of the using the key at the right. Rosemary Re: Re: puzzling frontal In this puzzler can someone explain how to see the delta at P4 on the maps page that everyone else sees? I see frontal delta and P4 alpha, but not more alpha on the left. I must be interpreting this incorrectly. In the back there is 2-4hz in the 12-15% range increasing most on the left at task. Is that not correct? Here is the link to the original post for this puzzler: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/braintrainer/message/11569 Rah I have attached a copy of an assessment that was discussed on this list so you can see what the results will look like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2006 Report Share Posted July 23, 2006 Well I can see why you are confused...I have a totally different assessment showing. Look at this one. Rosemary Re: Re: puzzling frontalDate: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 14:52:37 -0400 Rah, Are you reading the key at the right that gives the color code for %s? I see yellows (% in 30s) at P4 for the 2-4 Hz, and for 4-6 Hz at P4, I see red surrounded by pink. If you see the same colors, your interpretation must be skewed ;-) You may be interpreting by color intensity instead of the using the key at the right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2006 Report Share Posted July 23, 2006 Hi Rah: I've purchased your CD--because I have ThotTech's Biograph--so I'll be able to see what a TLC Assessment looks like. Also, looks like I'll need to see if I have Excel! But thanx for getting me on the correct path. This may be just the kind of help I've been looking for. Keep on helping...... Denver > >Reply-To: braintrainer >To: braintrainer >Subject: RE: Re: puzzling frontal >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 12:30:11 -0600 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Thank you Rah. I'll do that and see what the data looks like. > > > > > > > >Reply-To: braintrainer >To: braintrainer >Subject: Re: puzzling frontal >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 02:41:31 -0000 > > > > > > > >Surely someone else will respond to this inquiry. You may make brief >sequential recordings (1 minute eyes closed, 1 eyes open, 1 at task) >at various 10/20 sites then look at different views of the data in >Excel in the TLC assessment available for free at the Brain-trainer >website. > >http://www.brain-trainer.com/tlc_assessment/assessment_download.html > >You'll find instructions among these files, and people on this list >will help you if you have need. > >Please let us know how your work progresses with this man. I know >someone who suffers with this, and she would be interested to know if >neurofeedback is helpful. > >Rah > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2006 Report Share Posted July 23, 2006 , If you went to the Brain-trainer website and purchased a CD that would be Pete's I suppose. Good luck with the assessment. You might want to try it out on yourself before on a client. I'm guessing you'll be very interested to see what you can see once you collect the data. I'm looking forward to hearing how the process goes! Rah > > Hi Rah: > I've purchased your CD--because I have ThotTech's Biograph--so I'll be able > to see what a TLC Assessment looks like. Also, looks like I'll need to see > if I have Excel! But thanx for getting me on the correct path. This may be > just the kind of help I've been looking for. Keep on helping...... > > Denver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2006 Report Share Posted July 23, 2006 didn´t read the puzzler, but the image looks like a concussion. how´s his/her memory? vision? body control? ps- why is the puzzler called FRONTAL when the obvious aberration is right parietal? Re: Re: puzzling frontalDate: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 14:52:37 -0400 Rah, Are you reading the key at the right that gives the color code for %s? I see yellows (% in 30s) at P4 for the 2-4 Hz, and for 4-6 Hz at P4, I see red surrounded by pink. If you see the same colors, your interpretation must be skewed ;-) You may be interpreting by color intensity instead of the using the key at the right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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