Re: stearic acid/HLB playtime

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/30/03 7:40:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,

AngiesHerbarie@... writes:

> I am not the best mathematician in

> the world

>

or speller, either LOL!

The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care

Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality

at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Jan and all,

In a message dated 1/30/03 9:39:29 AM Pacific Standard Time,

oakridge@... writes:

> Angie, can't speak to your particular formulas, but I've never had the

> problems you describe, ie, stickier, waxier, runny - with formulas using

> stearic acid - and I've used it for over 5 yrs in lotions & creams....but

> not in the context you are doing.

I have to admit, I was quite surprised for it to turn out the way it did, but

indeed it did. I made another test batch with the same formula (3% stearic

acid and 2% polawax) and trust me, this is not something that you would want

to use...and it will NOT be one of my formulas LOL!

I primarily wanted to compare a simple little polawax formula of mine that

actually has a good feel, consistency, stability, etc. with the same

formula....only substituting part of the polawax with the stearic acid.

Since I've never used stearic acid, I wanted to see if it really does improve

the feel, body, etc. The stearic acid took it right down hill in terms of all

the characteristics above. It is quite thin and doesn't seem like it formed

a very stable emulsion...I wouldn't be surprised if it separates.

>

> I've spent a lot of time studying the HLB information and ran some figures

> using formulas I have used and liked. Most of the time I was already doing

> it correctly, without knowing exactly why Like you I experiment

> constantly....any wealthy companies on line that need a couple of " mature "

> R & D gals?? I now check the hlb numbers when I start a new project but

> don't spend a lot of time on it -- unless I come up with a problem...then

> look for reasons why it occurred and what I can do to correct/prevent it.

I've said so many times that I do think our instincts can be our best guide.

I also believe that, in life, very little is 100% " truth " ; but I also believe

that almost all things have a bit of " truth " . There are very few absolutes

in life. I have this thing about problem solving/decision making, it is just

my nature to take a systematic approach and I am afraid I always do ask

" why " . Used to annoy some of my professors, but then others seemed to like

the questions...regardless, at my age, I doubt I will change So, I guess

I am a bit like a dog with a bone---really tenacious and persistent! And no

one would want me to work for them in R & D, I would drive them crazy LOL!

But then once my " whys " are answered and fully understood (for me), then I

like to work from my own logic or rationale, which will probably include my

instincts. My goal with this project is not really to come up with something

that feels good/looks good, but to better understand the process and

rationale. So, all that mumble-jumble to say that this question is still not

answered to my satisfaction and I still see no rationale

For example:

1) Is the HLB system valid?

2) Perhaps the answer is not a simple yes or no. The system was developed

for use with the ethoxylated emulsifiers.

3) When should it not be used?

4) The HLB system is a guide....so what are some other factors to consider?

When I put together the little formula yesterday...trying to do the HLB with

the glyceryl stearate and polysorbate 20, I was actually surprised that it

turned out so well. It seems like it may be a decent framework from which to

build more complex formulas. It's just a bare-bones, simple thing, but is

pretty darn good! Maybe it's a simple thing for our chemists, but it's new

and interesting to me.

I really don't mean to take issue with stearic acid, but that's my example.

So, if we can assume the HLB system is a valid guide, what is the rationale

for NOT following the system in this case? I would like to understand,

because to me, this does not make sense. This could very well be a teachable

moment

Angie

The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care

Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality

at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

[Guest guest]

>>Now, for the " feel " part of things. The formula with the stearic acid does

not have as much " glide " as the one more polawax. It also has a " stickier "

type feel and even feels a little " waxier " ...this is a surprise, since I

fully expected to find more " cushion " or emolliency as has been described to

me. Also, the formula with the stearic was much more runny than the one

with all polawax??? This would be more like a lotion consistency, whereas

the one

with all polawax has a cream-like consistency. So, I don't know. It still

doesn't add up for me.

Angie, can't speak to your particular formulas, but I've never had the

problems you describe, ie, stickier, waxier, runny - with formulas using

stearic acid - and I've used it for over 5 yrs in lotions & creams....but

not in the context you are doing.

I've spent a lot of time studying the HLB information and ran some figures

using formulas I have used and liked. Most of the time I was already doing

it correctly, without knowing exactly why Like you I experiment

constantly....any wealthy companies on line that need a couple of " mature "

R & D gals?? I now check the hlb numbers when I start a new project but

don't spend a lot of time on it -- unless I come up with a problem...then

look for reasons why it occurred and what I can do to correct/prevent it.

Jan Flood oakridge@...

www.oakridgefarm.com

[Guest guest]

> Now, for the " feel " part of things. The formula with the stearic acid

> does

> not have as much " glide " as the one more polawax. It also has a

> " stickier "

> type feel and even feels a little " waxier " ...this is a surprise, since

> I

> fully expected to find more " cushion " or emolliency as has been

> described to

> me.

Angie,

I have only a little experience making lotions but I've combed all the

homecrafting formularies online and noticed that in these recipes the

polawax is -not- reduced when you add the stearic. I think the

reasoning is that stearic will add texture but it won't emulsify. You'd

still need the full amount of polawax to do that job. Until joining

this list, I had no idea of the chemistry behind these emulsions. I

considered polawax something like cornstarch: you whatever you need to

make your " gravy " thick enough. I think it's the prevailing

understanding among the homecrafters I've seen online. Stearic isn't

considered an emulsifier and seems to used the same way cetyl alcohol

is used in professional formulations.

Now that I'm learning about HLB and have started to work out my own

calculations, it's a wonder to me that these polawax lotions work at

all, since the HLBs can be so mismatched between oil phases and

emulsifiers. I can only guess that despite its " natural " HLB value,

polawax is particularly versatile and can adapt to a wide range of

required HLBs. (I've seen this feature touted on various manufacturers'

sites for other self-emulsifying ingredients.)

Speaking of HLB, can anyone tell me how to calculate the HLB for a

stearic/TEA emulsification system? I know the combination produces an

emulsifying soap, but I don't know its HLB nor how to manipulate the

proportions of the stearic and TEA to raise or lower that value.

Thanks alot,

Elaine

----------------------

Elaine Benfatto (Cambridge, MA)

elaine@...

http://www.urbanspinner.com/

[Guest guest]

Hi Elaine,

Hope you are doing well!

In a message dated 1/30/03 8:56:06 PM Pacific Standard Time,

elaine@... writes:

> Angie,

> I have only a little experience making lotions but I've combed all the

> homecrafting formularies online and noticed that in these recipes the

> polawax is -not- reduced when you add the stearic. I think the

> reasoning is that stearic will add texture but it won't emulsify. You'd

> still need the full amount of polawax to do that job.

Well, that's interesting.....I've heard so many times that they add stearic

to be able to decrease the amount of " ewax " used, as if " ewax " is a " bad

thing " and should be decreased. You are correct, but actually, stearic acid

does emulsify or else the emulsion wouldn't work properly. The stearic acid

is not a low HLB emulsifier, but is a fatty acid with a required HLB of 15.

I think you are right, it really doesn't make any sense to decrease the

polawax/add the stearic....unless a low HLB emulsifier was added also. By

keeping the polawax where it is and adding stearic acid to the equation, the

required HLB of the lipids becomes a closer match to the assumed HLB value of

15 (or the poly 80 in the polawax)----with most veggie oils having an HLB

value of 7-8, you would need something to bring it up to balance. So, in

theory, this would make a more stable emulsion. But this still goes in the

opposite direction of all that our chemist buds have shared with us regarding

emulsifiers...the whole idea of keeping the emulsifiers at a minimum AND

creating a stable emulsion. From the standpoint of making a more efficient

AND stable emulsion, it makes more sense to add a low HLB emulsifier like

glyceryl stearate (3.6).....especially for folks that like to use mostly

veggie oils. And all this is assuming the HLB system has any validity at all

Until joining

>

> this list, I had no idea of the chemistry behind these emulsions. I

> considered polawax something like cornstarch: you whatever you need to

> make your " gravy " thick enough. I think it's the prevailing

> understanding among the homecrafters I've seen online. Stearic isn't

> considered an emulsifier and seems to used the same way cetyl alcohol

> is used in professional formulations.

Well, you are pretty close to the whole picture! But it isn't like gravy,

it's more like making a cake with a cake mix. I think of polawax as an

" instant " emulsion. I always like to use the 'Betty Crocker cake mix'

comparison. The polawax has an emulsifier (or two) and fatty alcohols or

acids..........so all you have to do is add water, heat, agitation....and you

will have a cake, oops, I mean lotion without adding anything else. It won't

be a great lotion with nothing else added, but it will be lotion That is

the beauty of the " ewaxes " . The cetyl alcohol, cetearyl alcohol (a combo of

cetyl and stearyl), stearic acid, etc. are the thickeners, stabilizers,

emollients to some degree. So you do have the right idea. Stearic acid has

for some reason become the homecrafters favorite thing to throw in the mix??

Again, I am reminded of that game where the story is told at one end of the

line and is different by the time it reaches the end.

>

> Now that I'm learning about HLB and have started to work out my own

> calculations, it's a wonder to me that these polawax lotions work at

> all, since the HLBs can be so mismatched between oil phases and

> emulsifiers. I can only guess that despite its " natural " HLB value,

> polawax is particularly versatile and can adapt to a wide range of

> required HLBs. (I've seen this feature touted on various manufacturers'

> sites for other self-emulsifying ingredients.)

Polawax is going to work. It was created to work and it will work. You can

pretty much count on a formula with polawax as the only emulsifier having an

HLB value of around 15 or so...we don't know for sure because of all the

proprietary stuff. Again, you are exactly right, polawax is very versatile

with the high HLB and can " handle " most of the oils/lipids that are thrown in

to the mix. Some people would say it is overkill in terms of the high HLB,

but nevertheless it works. I think polowax works well. I like the

self-emulsifiers...my favorite is my Conditioning Emulsifier (behentrimonium

methosulfate and cetearyl alcohol). I have yet to find any emulsifiers or

combinations of emulsifiers that will make a better cream or lotion. This is

an excellent product.

>

> Speaking of HLB, can anyone tell me how to calculate the HLB for a

> stearic/TEA emulsification system? I know the combination produces an

> emulsifying soap, but I don't know its HLB nor how to manipulate the

> proportions of the stearic and TEA to raise or lower that value.

>

>

I'll leave that to our chemist buds....Maurice uses this combo I believe.

Thanks for your input, Elaine!

Angie

The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care

Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality

at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/31/03 6:15:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,

oakridge@... writes:

> Not just homecrafters Angie, check the labels of most creams on the market.

> Stearic is a viscosity modifier and will add a pearliness to creams. For

> basic creams I add stearic along with some e-wax and a little GMS. When I

> finish my current supply of e-wax I will probably go to something

> different...I definitely like the BTMS. If I had a true lab - and my

> degrees were in something more relevant to what I'm doing I would be

> very tempted to mix & match my own.

>

> Which prompts me to ask " our guys " , the big boppers, what were your

> majors?

> Organic chemistry, another chemistry, something altogether different that

> you segued into cosmetic chemistry? Wow, is that a good word or what?

> ...and they say TV isn't educational.

>

Hi Jan!

Well, with so many folks using the stearic acid, it has to have some

redeeming value I have nothing against it, just want to understand the

logic....that's all. Now that I see there really isn't any logic, I say,

let's just throw our stuff in the cauldron and see what we can cook up LOL!

Silly me, trying to find rhyme or reason to things.

As for what our esteemed cosmetic chemists were actually trained to do??

Hmmm. I think Maurice has definite leanings towards philosophy.

The heck with this silliness about HLB, why bother, no one really seems

interested anyway. I'm off to play with some fun new esters and who knows

what brew I'll concoct.

Angie

The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care

Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality

at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

[Guest guest]

>>Stearic acid has for some reason become the homecrafters favorite thing to

throw in the mix??

Not just homecrafters Angie, check the labels of most creams on the market.

Stearic is a viscosity modifier and will add a pearliness to creams. For

basic creams I add stearic along with some e-wax and a little GMS. When I

finish my current supply of e-wax I will probably go to something

different...I definitely like the BTMS. If I had a true lab - and my

degrees were in something more relevant to what I'm doing I would be

very tempted to mix & match my own.

Which prompts me to ask " our guys " , the big boppers, what were your majors?

Organic chemistry, another chemistry, something altogether different that

you segued into cosmetic chemistry? Wow, is that a good word or what?

....and they say TV isn't educational.

Jan Flood oakridge@...

www.oakridgefarm.com

[Guest guest]

>

> Speaking of HLB, can anyone tell me how to calculate the HLB for a

> stearic/TEA emulsification system? I know the combination produces

an

> emulsifying soap, but I don't know its HLB nor how to manipulate

the

> proportions of the stearic and TEA to raise or lower that value.

>

> Thanks alot,

> Elaine

I never use HLB with soap systems, Maurice/ may have some

insight but I believe HLB goes out the window when you are using

soaps or other anionic emulsifiers. Depending on other ingredients I

use about 10% of the stearic amount as TEA, ie 5% stearic, 0.5% TEA.

I use 52% stearic blend. If you go too high on pH the lotion tends to

be thin. I keep pH around 6.5 - 6.9. This ensures there's always some

free stearic about which usually leads to a thicker product. Soap

systems are good for thick products, but for thinner products a

second emulsifier is usually added for greater stability.

Stearic/TEA, ceteareth 20 and GMS NE will tend to be stable with most

emollients. I try to avoid stearic in thin products and rely instead

on polymeric emulsifiers to increase stability, eg Stabylen 30 from

3V.

Dave E