Re: Emulsification Procedure

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/26/03 10:13:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,

j_b_bhat@... writes:

> Dear Members,

>

> I am little confused regarding emulsification of oil and water.

> I know all the creams and lotions are either oil in water emulsion or

> water in oil emulsion.The standard procedure for making lotion or

> cream says oil phase is added into the waterphase,mixed with

> homogeniser and gradually cooled.

> What is the reason for adding oil phase into the waterphase phase?

> and not vice versa ,i.e water phase into oilphase?

> Adding water phase into oil phase makes any difference to product

> quality,look,sheen or may not be stable?Any scientic reason for this

> standard procedure?

> Also if the oil phase is more than waterphase then also we have to

> follow the same procedure,i.e oil phase is to be added to water phase?

>

>

> Thanks & Regards

>

> jbbhat

>

Hi jbbhat,

You ask an interesting question! Emulsions are SO fascinating! Many of my

clients are under the impression that when water is added to oils, a w/o

emulsion is formed....and when oils are added to water, an o/w emulsion is

formed. In other words, that is their understanding of the difference

between the two types of emulsions and how they are formed. I explain that

the type emulsion formed really depends on the ingredients and the

emulsifiers, rather than 'which phase is poured where'. However, there IS

the tendency to form a w/o emulsion when the water is poured into the oils,

but if the ingredients and emulsifiers are such that would be used for an o/w

emulsion---then an o/w emulsion will be the ultimate outcome. There are some

who say a more stable o/w emulsion is formed because of this phase

inversion---which I don't understand completely, but find extremely

fascinating!

When making emulsions, I always add the water phase to the oil phase. I

started out doing it that way and have just always done it that way. I find

it is easier. Simply heat the oils in the larger of the pots and pour the

water into it! It is much easier to replace any water from evaporation or

that is left in the pot after pouring. If you choose to do oils to water,

weigh the pot with the oils in it after pouring, there will certainly be some

left in it--it's just physically more difficult to get out of the pot!! I

find it easier to be precise when it is done this way...but that's just my

way and most likely most folks do it the other way......leave it to me to do

it backwards But, either way works.

I agree that it is interesting to look at the how the compounding procedures

effect the differences in the finished emulsion. I have started cooling my

emulsions quickly by putting the large pot into a 'bath' of cold water and

mixing until cooldown. I've only noticed positive results, but don't

absolutely know what difference, if any, this makes. As was discussed, the

type of mixer used will certainly effect the emulsion--high shear, speeds,

type. It's all so interesting.

Angie

The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care

Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality

at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

[Guest guest]

JB,

In many cases it is easier to all the water to the oil and it often

gives an emulsion with improved stability since the emulsion must invert

from W/O to O/W in the finished form. The original thinking is that by

adding the oils to the water then you have the ability to disperse the

oils into the water but with the correct combination of emulsifiers the

emulsion will form in the desired phase orientation regardless of the

process used to make the emulsion.

When an emulsion inverts you will get a finer particle size without the

homogenization.

Young

KY Labs

Innovators of Fine Personal Products

www.kylabs.com

Emulsification Procedure

Dear Members,

I am little confused regarding emulsification of oil and water.

I know all the creams and lotions are either oil in water emulsion or

water in oil emulsion.The standard procedure for making lotion or

cream says oil phase is added into the waterphase,mixed with

homogeniser and gradually cooled.

What is the reason for adding oil phase into the waterphase phase?

and not vice versa ,i.e water phase into oilphase?

Adding water phase into oil phase makes any difference to product

quality,look,sheen or may not be stable?Any scientic reason for this

standard procedure?

Also if the oil phase is more than waterphase then also we have to

follow the same procedure,i.e oil phase is to be added to water phase?

Thanks & Regards

jbbhat

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[Guest guest]

> JB,

>

> In many cases it is easier to all the water to the oil and it often

> gives an emulsion with improved stability since the emulsion must

invert

> from W/O to O/W in the finished form. The original thinking is that

by

> adding the oils to the water then you have the ability to disperse

the

> oils into the water but with the correct combination of emulsifiers

the

> emulsion will form in the desired phase orientation regardless of

the

> process used to make the emulsion.

> When an emulsion inverts you will get a finer particle size without

the

> homogenization.

Particularly if you heat the water and oil above the Phase Inversion

Temperature (PIT emulsion technique). The PIT usually corresponds to

the cloud point of the emulsifier. Eg for Ceteareth 20 cloud point is

76 - 78 celsius. If you add oil and water at say 80 celsius a w/o

emulsion will form, which will invert to a o/w below 76 celsius,

giving a more stable emulsion. To determine cloud point of a POE

emulsifier make a 1% solution of the emulsifier in a 10% salt

solution. Place 1/2 test tube into a water bath and heat up. Note the

temperature at which the clear solution starts to go cloudy. Cool

down and note when the sol'n goes clear, the temperatures should

correspond. This is the cloud point and can usually be determined

within 2 celsius. This method is also used as a quick way to

determine different POE emulsifiers as they all have different cloud

points.

Dave E

[Guest guest]

COOL! Whether I need to know that or not, it sounds like it'd be fun

to test it...

I'm such a geek...*lol*

Jules

--- In Cosmeticinfo , " deastham2000 <david@e...> " >

<snip>

To determine cloud point of a POE

> emulsifier make a 1% solution of the emulsifier in a 10% salt

> solution. Place 1/2 test tube into a water bath and heat up. Note

the

> temperature at which the clear solution starts to go cloudy. Cool

> down and note when the sol'n goes clear, the temperatures should

> correspond. This is the cloud point and can usually be determined

> within 2 celsius. This method is also used as a quick way to

> determine different POE emulsifiers as they all have different

cloud

> points.

>

> Dave E

[Guest guest]

Jules,

That was my EXACT response to that post!

We must have some kind of peculiar mind-set!

Marie

Marie Gale

Chandler's Soaps

www.chandlerssoaps.com

Re: Emulsification Procedure

> COOL! Whether I need to know that or not, it sounds like it'd be fun

> to test it...

>

> I'm such a geek...*lol*

>

>

> Jules

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I am not using cetereth -20 as my emulsifer .I am using bees wax and

sodium borate combination for making a cream.OIL Phase is mineral oil

about 55% and waterphase is around 30%.

I would like to know whether waterphase can be added to oil phase in

this formulation?What is your experience handling this type of

emulsion?

Thanks & Regards.

jb bhat

[Guest guest]

> I am not using cetereth -20 as my emulsifer .I am using bees wax

and

> sodium borate combination for making a cream.OIL Phase is mineral

oil

> about 55% and waterphase is around 30%.

> I would like to know whether waterphase can be added to oil phase

in

> this formulation?What is your experience handling this type of

> emulsion?

Never messed with this type of emulsion. I would imagine water to oil

is best, with the borax being pre dissolved in the water.

Harry's Cosmeticology (ed 7) states three W/O beeswax emulsions

Beeswax 5.0 16.0 12.0

Mineral Oil 45.0 50.0 --

Borax 0.2 0.8 0.5

Microcrystalline Wax 7.0 -- --

Spermaceti -- -- 12.5

Sesame Oil -- -- 40.0

Water 32.8 33.2 35.0

Perfume, Preservative qs qs qs

Paraffin Wax 10.0 -- --

Hope it comes out OK on e mail??

Dave Eastham

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:56:00 -0000, " deastham2000 "

wrote:

>Never messed with this type of emulsion. I would imagine water to oil

>is best, with the borax being pre dissolved in the water.

Based on personal experience in the lab ONLY and numerous " suggested "

formulations, the water is added to the oils.

Maurice

--------------------------------------------------------

Maurice O. Hevey

Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

-------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Thanks Mr.Maurice for your valuable suggestion.But with my experience

in manufacturing of cosmetics on commercial basis, we are adding oil

phase into the waterphase in all the emulsion product.

This problem came to mind when we faced constraint in having bigger

vessel for making oil phase.

We have Water phasemaking vessel is bigger and oil phase making

vessel is smaller.Instead of buying a new vessel we thought of using

vice -versa.Then i realised this may lead to breaking of emulsion or

the final product quality may be bad. That is the reason i posted my

question.

With my experience in manufacturing in the plant and your experience

in lab, can i conclude that either way oil into water and water into

oil addition,not make much difference?

Thanks once again.

JB Bhat

>

> >Never messed with this type of emulsion. I would imagine water to

oil

> >is best, with the borax being pre dissolved in the water.

>

> Based on personal experience in the lab ONLY and

numerous " suggested " formulations, the water is added to the oils.

>

> Maurice

>

>

> --------------------------------------------------------

> Maurice O. Hevey

> Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

> http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

> -------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

>With my experience in manufacturing in the plant and your experience

>in lab, can i conclude that either way oil into water and water into

>oil addition,not make much difference?

I don't think it makes any practical difference. If there is a difference, it

probably can be found under a microscope.

Maurice

--------------------------------------------------------

Maurice O. Hevey

Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

-------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Dear Mr.Maurice,

Thanks .

I have never checked my emulsion product under microscope.What is the

method of checking the product under microscope?Which microscope is

required and from where we will get this microscope?How to conclude

the result of the product.I will be greatful if you send me the

details.

Regards

JB Bhat

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 29 Jan 2003 08:46:25 -0800 (PST), JAYARAM B BHAT wrote:

>I have never checked my emulsion product under microscope.What is the method of

checking the product under microscope?Which microscope is required and from

where

we will get this microscope?How to conclude the result of the product.I will be

greatful if you send me the details.

You just put a very small amount of your emulsion on a microscope slide and then

put another slide or " slip cover " on top. You can use an low power microscope.

under

the microscope, you should see small droplets of water in a sea of oil. What

you should be looking for is uniform small water droplets.

JB, I really don't think you'll see much. Why don't you make up two lab

batches.

1) add the oils to the water

2) add the water to the oils

Wait a day and then put them in a 40C - 42C oven and check the samples as a

function of time. If you are going to have any instability, it should show up

there.

Personally, I don't think you seen much difference.

Take care my friend.

Maurice

--------------------------------------------------------

Maurice O. Hevey

Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

-------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

> Dear Mr.Maurice,

>

> Thanks .

>

> I have never checked my emulsion product under microscope.What is

the

> method of checking the product under microscope?Which microscope is

> required and from where we will get this microscope?How to conclude

> the result of the product.I will be greatful if you send me the

> details.

>

> Regards

I use:place tiny drop of emulsion on slide, and add cover slip. Allow

the lotion to spread for about 10 minutes (thick creams may need

slight pressure applying). Observe under 400 to 1000 magnification

with illumination from underneath the sample. You can normally

observe oil droplets of O/W emulsion around the 5 to 10 micron size

with this technique at the 400 times magnification, 1 to 5 micron at

the 1000 times magnification. I use an oil immersion lens for the

1000 x magnification and its a bit fiddly. I used this technique just

the other day when looking at a " Dove Moisturiser " . This product uses

a water in oil emulsifier Abil EM 90. The final viscosity depends on

droplet size of the emulsion. When I observed the Dove product I

found the droplet size to be sub micron ie I couldn't distinguish any

droplets. I examined my first attempt at a match and found the

droplet size to be between 2 and 10 micron. The viscosity at this

stage was 4000 cps. I continued to shear the mix and the viscosity

went up to 15000 cps. Under the microscope the droplet size had gone

down to 1 micron and sub micron particles, similar to the Dove

product. Nevertheless the following day the emulsion had fallen

apart; back to the drawing board.The microscope comes in useful for

such a product and also for observing any coalescence in emulsions on

storage.

Please note this is the method I use, I haven't come across a

standard method.

Dave E.