Re: Labeling- Pam

[Guest guest]

<<<Hi Dee,>>>

Sorry for late response Pam, I homeschool my 9 y/o ADHD son and it

is not an easy task at times. = P

<<< Really?? I'm very surprised at this. What about Lux soap? I'm sure that's

made by Proctor and Gamble, is that a syndet too? What has made the decline of

true soap in the US? There are still many brands of true soap available here in

Ireland and UK.>>>>

Last I looked Lux was called a beauty bar and I have to assume it is a Syndet

like the

rest. I bought several bars of soap including the dermatologist recommended

stuff and

the supposedly natural insiuated stuff like Aveeno, along with Irish Spring,

Lever, and

the general body bars when I doing the manuscript for my book. I had a section

in there

where I explained the definition of true soap as I posted with the link (the

bilk of the

product made up solely of fats, water and alkali) and listed the bars with their

labeled

ingredients and asked the reader to decide if it was soap or syndet. This new

editor

was afraid to do the book this way so all I could do was list the following in

the book

as Product A, Product B and so forth. I still can't believe she was afraid of

" legal "

recourse because this is common knowledge. A syndet *must* be labeled with

thier

ingredients. It wasn't like I was bad mouthing the product, I merely inform the

reader

that true soap is milder and less likely to cause sensitive folks reactions -

which is true.

Anyway...I will list the ones that are in the book so you can see how the

syndets are

labeled here and give you idea of what is a syndet in the US.

<<<In fact the only syndet bar I've ever seen is Dove, the rest are all true

soaps.>>>

Let me know if your " US soap " brands contain different ingredients. At least

that is

what I am thinking you are saying....that in Ireland you are receiving American

soap

and not syndets.

<<<No wonder handmade soap is a growing market in the US! Anyway, all

the true soap manufactures label their soap as I do but they don't mention

the unsaponifiables in their ingredients. Most of these probably remove the

glycerine so that won't be on it but there are brands out there that haven't

removed it so I must have a look next time. The only thing is the print can be

tiny so I'll have to buy them all to examine when I get home:-)))

Pam>>>

Yes, can you believe it? You need a magnifying glass to read some of the

labels! I don't

I havenot run across anyone on any soap making list that lists unsaponifiables.

Some list

NaOH, some don't. I have seem cosmetics in national stores that do not list

ingredients

and often see they do not even list how to contact them....merely a company. I

stopped

long ago taking things up to the store managers telling them by law a customer

needs to

have a way of contacting the manufacturer (reactions, etc) but it does no good.

The stuff

is still there months later. Not good. What we need is more FDA, what we don't

need

is more FDA. LOL Our government run agency - as you saw from the post that

you

can get different answers to the same question - are not the greatest.

My sister married an Irishman and lives in Dublin. If I ever get a chance I will

the read the

cheat book I bought to learn about her new way of life. Tis pretty country.

Anyway,

here are some of the Syndets...now wish I had not deleted the full list I had.

If you want to

know what bars they are let me know and I will look for the bars when I wake up

from my

much needed sleep. Anyway, if you choose to list the cosmetic way this should

help you

see how it is done. = )

PRODUCT A is described to " feel clean and fresh " :

Soap(Sodium Tallowate, Sodium Cocoate and/or Sodium Palm Kernelate types),

Water, Stearic Acid (skin conditioner), Coconut and/or Palm Kernel Acid,

Glycerine (skin conditioner), Fragrance, Sodium Chloride, Titanium Dioxide,

Pentasodium Pentetate, Tetrabutyl Pentaerythrityl Hydroxyhydrocinnamate, D & C

Green No. 8, FD & C Green No. 3

PRODUCT B is described as a " moisturizing body bar " :

Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate, Stearic Acid, Sodium Tallowate, Water, Sodium

Isethionate, Ccoconut Acid, Sodium Stearate, Sodium Dodecylbenzenesulfonate,

Sodium Cocoate, or Sodium Palm Kernelate, Fragrance, Mineral Oil, Sodium

Chloride, Titanium Dioxide, Trisodium EDTA, Trisodium Etidronate, BHT, D & C

yellow No. 11, D & C red No. 17

PRODUCT C is described for " sensitive skin " :

Sodium Cocotyl Isethionate, Paraffin, Sodium Cocoglyceryl Ether Sulfonate,

Glycerin, Water, Magnesium Stearate, Stearic Acid, Sodium Isethionate, Magnesium

Cocoate, Coconut Acid, Sodium Stearate, Sodium Cocoate, Sodium Sulfate, Sodium

Chloride, Magnesium te, Lauric Acid, Sodium te, Trisodium EDTA,

Trisodium Etidronate, Masking Fragrance, PEG-90M, Titanium Dioxide.

PRODUCT D is said to be " dermatologist recommended " :

TEA-stearate, Triethanolamine, Sodium Tallowate, Glycerin, Sodium Lauroyl

Sarcosinate, Purified Water, Cocoate, Sodium Ricinoleate, Witch Hazel,

Fragrance, Tocopherol.

PRODUCT E is said to a " natural.moisturizing bar " :

Oat flour, Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate, Water, Cetyl Alcohol, Vegetable Oil

(hydrogenated), Vegetable Shortening, Glycerin, C12-15 Pareth-12 Carbodylic

Adic, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Sodium Lactate, Potassium Sorbate, Iodopropynyl

Butylcarbamate

Dee ><((((º>·.¸:.·´¯`·.><((((º> .¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º>

http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/HotSoapEtc

http://www.hpsoapbook.com

[Guest guest]

<<From what I could see most were listed almost the same as product #1 you

mention below. I would have thought that this would be classified as " soap "

under the FDA. I'm totally confused now, am I wrong? :-)) >>

Probably not. It may be classified soap in Ireland, but the US uses the

definition

I gave as soap. It has to do with safety and potential reactions to the public

at

large. Something made out of oil, lye and water is deemped safe for everyone.

But when you add other man altered things into it you will find that some people

will react to some it. As my book said most people use the syndet and have no

problems at all, but some do. Not sure how old you are but in the 70's (?)

there

used to Physohex...a liquid soap that hardly sudsed up at all. It contained the

ingredient hexochlorophene. Well, studies then found it was

carcinogenic...pulled

it off the market and replaced it with Physoderm. But for years this stuff was

suggested by doctors everywhere for acne washing to douching and clearling up

vaginal infection, and so forth. That will give a bit of insight as to why the

FDA

has drawn a line between the two.

Don't know how long it will remain with homecrafters who chunk up and put

raw fruit in their soaps (no preservative or thinking that a little bit of Vit E

will

do the job) and things like that. If other homecrafters can't get some common

sense in them things will change.

<<<<It would be more simple if there was only just the one method, not least for

us but also the consumer. Take for instance using the INCI from the CTFA, I

would have thought that when you want to label something you would automatically

use the latest version. >>>

That is how the medical community and health care law look at it,

the newer updated version is he most accurate to them. But with

the cosmetic industry using two different associations to choose

labeling from then does it really matter? Or did I misunderstand

that Europe has one criteria and the Cosmetic books INCI have not

been accepted world wide yet? Being up 37 hours may have altered

me a bit there.

<<< There will never be any standardization if people continue to do this and it

must be very confusing to the consumer. Has the FDA actually said that you can

choose older versions when putting on new products on the market? I really can't

understand their reasoning for allowing manufacturers to do this, it doesn't

make sense:-) >>>

If I recall there is something to this effect in the labeling of cosmetics that

states one can

chose from the two, but I an not into indepth cosmetic ingredients and I will

never buy

a chunk of raw materials to make the same Pond face cream I can buy cheaper from

Ponds. The most exotic stuff I have in my hand and feet creams is dimethicone,

e-waxNF,

stearic acid and Phenonip or Germaben in my lotions and creams with an FO or EO.

All

else is distilled water and food or cosmetic grade oils. And even with that I

seriously

considering switching to sterile water for my lotions....or at least boiling the

distilled to

sterilize it before use. <G>

Dee ><((((º>·.¸:.·´¯`·.><((((º> .¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º>

http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/HotSoapEtc

http://www.hpsoapbook.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Dee

>>>Don't know how long it will remain with homecrafters who chunk up and put

raw fruit in their soaps (no preservative or thinking that a little bit of

Vit E will

do the job) and things like that. If other homecrafters can't get some

common

sense in them things will change>>

As you probably know things have drastically changed in the EEC regarding

soap as it is classified as a cosmetic and therefore needs certifying by a

chemist. You are quite right, some of the things I have seen in the past on

some boards are frightening, for example using oak moss Eo which according

to IFRA is a major sensitize and the permissible amount is so low it

wouldn't even be worth putting it into soap. Yet I have seen people using

this and most people aren't even aware that IFRA exists. I know some of the

major handcrafted soapmakers have even suggested that they lobby for

regulation because of some of things that is been used with CP soap. People

seem to be under the impression that hey it's soap what harm can it do but

there are safety issues to take into account. Things are cozy at the moment

but you

just don't know what's around the corner:-)

>>That is how the medical community and health care law look at it,

the newer updated version is he most accurate to them. But with

the cosmetic industry using two different associations to choose

labeling from then does it really matter? Or did I misunderstand

that Europe has one criteria and the Cosmetic books INCI have not

been accepted world wide yet? Being up 37 hours may have altered

me a bit there. >>

..

Because there is two departments in the US dealing with soap and cosmetics

there is no harmonization as yet between the US and Europe as far as I know.

There has been some progress, there was talk of using the CI references for

colours along with the US Equivalent ( FD & C or whatever) but I am unsure if

this has been adopted yet. Most of the INCI names though for the common

ingredients I would use do seem to be the same so there is some degree of

harmonization. They are working on it though so eventually it will all be

the same.

Pam

Dee ><((((º>·.¸:.·´¯`·.><((((º> .¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º>

http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/HotSoapEtc

http://www.hpsoapbook.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Dee

No, in the EU every color has it's own Color Index number although

ultramarine blue, pink and mauve all share the one reference because I think

the pink and the mauve are made from blue although I stand to be corrected

on this! For example, hydrated chromium oxide green is CI 77289, if dual

labeling with the US was to come into force the label would read " iron oxide

(C.I. 77289) " . I don't know if this has been adopted yet though. I have no

experience of colors bleeding I'm afraid, I only use the ultramarines,

oxides and D & C Red 30 AL Lake. I like the red 30 as it doesn't fade and you

only use a tiny bit dissolved in glycerine to get a very good color. Not

much help I'm afraid:-(

Pam

You speaking of ust using the references blue no 1, green no 8 and so

forth?

I personally prefer to see the FD & C or D & C by the number for one reason. It

gives me an idea of which colours will dafe out or bleed. <G> I saw Jen's

new

site (looking good) and she listing then without the identifiers and I asked

her if

she might indicate in some way what colors are what so that soap makers can

determine before purchasing the risk of bleeding or fading so we can adjust

the

recipe to accomodate. IE, using less FD & C will often prevent bleeding, so

if

we want a bolder color we would choose the one with greater percentage of

D & C

and for out pale tinted soaps the FD & C will work fine. We both wondered

that

if the mixture would sort of anchor the FD & C and make it behave. Have you

do

any experimenting with anchoring bleeding colour? Or anyone else?

Dee ><((((º>·.¸:.·´¯`·.><((((º> .¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º>

http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/HotSoapEtc

http://www.hpsoapbook.com

[Guest guest]

<<<<<<Hi Dee

No, in the EU every color has it's own Color Index number although

ultramarine blue, pink and mauve all share the one reference because

....................... Not much help I'm afraid:-( >>>>>>>>

Yes, it is different there. I suppose one would get used to it but

you are correct. It would be much easier to have a world wide way of

doing things. What a pain this must be for you tracking it all down.

Dee ><((((º>·.¸:.·´¯`·.><((((º> .¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º>

http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/HotSoapEtc

http://www.hpsoapbook.com

[Guest guest]

<<<<<Hi Dee

You do get used to it, at first it sounds complicated but you do get the

hang of it just like I'm trying to get used to the US laws:-)

The only thing is that we don't have to pay for our inventory INCI listings. All

the INCI references are on the EU site. >>>>>>>>>>>>

Good ol' USA, the land of opportunity and ripping people off

of their money. =P

Do not misunderstand. I would rather be here than many places,

but I do not feel the pride I did in the 1960's

about being American for several reasons.

<<<<<<There is a huge inventory there and everything is listed, well almost

everything, if there is no INCI we use the common name. In the

US you seem to have 9 different volumes to wade through ( or at least volume

6.7.8.and 9 as you will probably be using the recent ones ) whereas we have

only one which is updated now and again and it's all online free of charge:-))

>>>>>>>>>>.

Yes, I must say. Europe seems to have much more common sense

than America. LOL

<<<<Gosh those CFTA books are expensive, even the buyers guide is !!

Pam >>>>

Please, reread response #1, paragraph 1. LOL

Dee ><((((º>·.¸:.·´¯`·.><((((º> .¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º>

http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/HotSoapEtc

http://www.hpsoapbook.com