Guest guest Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 Tamson~ The girl probably has a ton of slow waves (and maybe alpha) and low SMR %. I believe its about not being aware and being distracted by other things to bother paying attention till its too late. Have you tried some frontal squashes and C4 training? You can tell the Mom, (not that its any consolation right now) but that I heard a Urologist say in most kids who have this issue, it clears up after age 10. In the child I know who had this issue, it actually did start to stop at 10. ~ enuresis in 7 yo girl Hello everyone--I'm working with a 7 yo girl who often wets her pants during the dayand at night as well. This problem has been with her since toilettraining, so it's not at all new, and does not seem to be the resultof a physical or medical condition. Mom reports that when the childwets her pants during the day, many times she will ignore thesituation and continue on in her soiled clothing. So I'm wondering ifthe child would benefit from some training that would increase herawareness of body sensations.I've done a search through the archives and found some references toprotocols and ideas that have worked with some children. One of thereferences was to Margaret Ayers' incontinence protocol. Does anyoneknow what that protocol actually is? I'd welcome any additional thoughts/ideas about what has worked withkiddos in the past. As always, thanks!Tamson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 The Othmers reported that many childrens' enuresis stopped with their old c4 smr approach. The night time wetting is a very different problem. The normal age range for continual dry beds is up to 10yrs of age of so. I would suggest talking about the day time enuresis as the main target. \ > Hello everyone-- > > I'm working with a 7 yo girl who often wets her pants during the day > and at night as well. This problem has been with her since toilet > training, so it's not at all new, and does not seem to be the result > of a physical or medical condition. Mom reports that when the child > wets her pants during the day, many times she will ignore the > situation and continue on in her soiled clothing. So I'm wondering if > the child would benefit from some training that would increase her > awareness of body sensations. > > I've done a search through the archives and found some references to > protocols and ideas that have worked with some children. One of the > references was to Margaret Ayers' incontinence protocol. Does anyone > know what that protocol actually is? > > I'd welcome any additional thoughts/ideas about what has worked with > kiddos in the past. > > As always, thanks! > > Tamson > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 A quick followup on this. Please make sure your client has had a thorough physical just to rule out and physical problem, I did have one 9 yr old referred to me for similar issues and she had a urological problem (not that I can remember what) that was contributing to the problem > Tamson~ > The girl probably has a ton of slow waves (and maybe alpha) and low > SMR %. I believe its about not being aware and being distracted by > other things to bother paying attention till its too late. Have you > tried some frontal squashes and C4 training? > You can tell the Mom, (not that its any consolation right now) but > that I heard a Urologist say in most kids who have this issue, it > clears up after age 10. In the child I know who had this issue, it > actually did start to stop at 10. > ~ > >> enuresis in 7 yo girl >> >> >> Hello everyone-- >> >> I'm working with a 7 yo girl who often wets her pants during the day >> and at night as well. This problem has been with her since toilet >> training, so it's not at all new, and does not seem to be the result >> of a physical or medical condition. Mom reports that when the child >> wets her pants during the day, many times she will ignore the >> situation and continue on in her soiled clothing. So I'm wondering if >> the child would benefit from some training that would increase her >> awareness of body sensations. >> >> I've done a search through the archives and found some references to >> protocols and ideas that have worked with some children. One of the >> references was to Margaret Ayers' incontinence protocol. Does anyone >> know what that protocol actually is? >> >> I'd welcome any additional thoughts/ideas about what has worked with >> kiddos in the past. >> >> As always, thanks! >> >> Tamson >> > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 Tamsom This is from a past post of Pete's and others. My experience has generally been that enuresis responds well to speeding up the left side of the brain, either by reducing slow activity or by training up beta (or both), depending on the client. > This is especially true of bed-wetters who fall asleep easily and are hard to awaken in the morning. They essentially cannot produce much beta (you should see high T/B ratios), so when they fall asleep, instead of cycling down to Delta sleep and up into REM (where they are close to the waking state and can wake themselves up if necessary to go to the bathroom), they stay in deep sleep, almost like a coma and don't get the body messages. As they improve their ability to cycle, they become easier to awaken in the morning, and they stop wetting the bed. Of course bedwetting can also be an emotionally-triggered event--as it may well be in the population you work with. And it can have psychological overtones ("do you still love me"). In those cases you might be oriented more toward trying to dampen the emotional overdrive in the temporal or parietal areas to un-dampen the sheets. (sorry). Pete Hi Jan, In my humble experience (I've worked with more than 100 different kids in the past 3 years related to "bedwetting "), I can tell that if you focus your training in C4 rewarding LoBeta or SMR you will get the results you expect, because this issue is related to the right hemisphere and underarousal, so you can "fix" it uptraining this site. But you need to consider to do an assessment to establish which activation patterns are present on your client's brain first, to be able to set a whole plan to stabilize all the functions, remember that one issue, regularly, is not alone by itself, could and will be there as a consecuence of other issue(s). And please don't forget & /or discard the psychological+emotional part of the client. OK, Jan, I hope this can help your case and wish you good luck. R. , C.H. Jan, I see enuresis as a problem (most cases) of sleeping too deeply. I'm assuming she is a heavy sleeper. If so, then I wouldn't necessarily do the SMR training. You can avoid having to "balance" the beta with SMR if you just train down slow activity. Pete Hope this helps Dudley On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 18:51:46 -0000 "foxmaven" writes:> Hello everyone--> > I'm working with a 7 yo girl who often wets her pants during the > day> and at night as well. This problem has been with her since toilet> training, so it's not at all new, and does not seem to be the > result> of a physical or medical condition. Mom reports that when the > child> wets her pants during the day, many times she will ignore the> situation and continue on in her soiled clothing. So I'm wondering > if> the child would benefit from some training that would increase her> awareness of body sensations.> > I've done a search through the archives and found some references > to> protocols and ideas that have worked with some children. One of > the> references was to Margaret Ayers' incontinence protocol. Does > anyone> know what that protocol actually is? > > I'd welcome any additional thoughts/ideas about what has worked > with> kiddos in the past. > > As always, thanks!> > Tamson> > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 Would you say this child has at least average cognition? How is her social connectedness? I'm wondering how a 7 year old could ignore wet pants if she is around other kids, who would typically shame a peer in that situation. I will be interested to hear how she progresses.foxmaven wrote: Hello everyone--I'm working with a 7 yo girl who often wets her pants during the dayand at night as well. This problem has been with her since toilettraining, so it's not at all new, and does not seem to be the resultof a physical or medical condition. Mom reports that when the childwets her pants during the day, many times she will ignore thesituation and continue on in her soiled clothing. So I'm wondering ifthe child would benefit from some training that would increase herawareness of body sensations.I've done a search through the archives and found some references toprotocols and ideas that have worked with some children. One of thereferences was to Margaret Ayers' incontinence protocol. Does anyoneknow what that protocol actually is? I'd welcome any additional thoughts/ideas about what has worked withkiddos in the past. As always, thanks!Tamson Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 Would you say this child has at least average cognition? How is her social connectedness? I'm wondering how a 7 year old could ignore wet pants if she is around other kids, who would typically shame a peer in that situation. I will be interested to hear how she progresses.foxmaven wrote: Hello everyone--I'm working with a 7 yo girl who often wets her pants during the dayand at night as well. This problem has been with her since toilettraining, so it's not at all new, and does not seem to be the resultof a physical or medical condition. Mom reports that when the childwets her pants during the day, many times she will ignore thesituation and continue on in her soiled clothing. So I'm wondering ifthe child would benefit from some training that would increase herawareness of body sensations.I've done a search through the archives and found some references toprotocols and ideas that have worked with some children. One of thereferences was to Margaret Ayers' incontinence protocol. Does anyoneknow what that protocol actually is? I'd welcome any additional thoughts/ideas about what has worked withkiddos in the past. As always, thanks!Tamson All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 ~ The child I knew who did this was in the gifted program at school but in such a spacey state that she was not able to pay attention to the signs until it was too late. Once she had wet or soiled she was embarrassed and would call home and ask for dry clothes. It was harder for her to hold her bladder when she was nervous. She is now a young adult and is doing just fine, sorted itself out by 10. The urologist also mentioned that sometimes these kids have an immature nervous system in their bladder and they cant read the signs like they should. ~ Re: enuresis in 7 yo girl Would you say this child has at least average cognition? How is her social connectedness? I'm wondering how a 7 year old could ignore wet pants if she is around other kids, who would typically shame a peer in that situation. I will be interested to hear how she progresses.foxmaven <tamsontamson (DOT) tv> wrote: Hello everyone--I'm working with a 7 yo girl who often wets her pants during the dayand at night as well. This problem has been with her since toilettraining, so it's not at all new, and does not seem to be the resultof a physical or medical condition. Mom reports that when the childwets her pants during the day, many times she will ignore thesituation and continue on in her soiled clothing. So I'm wondering ifthe child would benefit from some training that would increase herawareness of body sensations.I've done a search through the archives and found some references toprotocols and ideas that have worked with some children. One of thereferences was to Margaret Ayers' incontinence protocol. Does anyoneknow what that protocol actually is? I'd welcome any additional thoughts/ideas about what has worked withkiddos in the past. As always, thanks!Tamson Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 Dear Tamsom, Almost all people who suffer from enuresis are consider under arousal type person, because their ANS rhythm works below the average needed to autocontrol the sphincters. So one of the possible training could be C3-C4 rewarding 14-17Hz, going higher (increasing depending on results). Do it for 20 minutes the first session and wait for results. Hope this may help your client. ,C.H.BrainTrainer @ Training for LifeMiami,FL Re: enuresis in 7 yo girl Would you say this child has at least average cognition? How is her social connectedness? I'm wondering how a 7 year old could ignore wet pants if she is around other kids, who would typically shame a peer in that situation. I will be interested to hear how she progresses.foxmaven <tamsontamson (DOT) tv> wrote: Hello everyone--I'm working with a 7 yo girl who often wets her pants during the dayand at night as well. This problem has been with her since toilettraining, so it's not at all new, and does not seem to be the resultof a physical or medical condition. Mom reports that when the childwets her pants during the day, many times she will ignore thesituation and continue on in her soiled clothing. So I'm wondering ifthe child would benefit from some training that would increase herawareness of body sensations.I've done a search through the archives and found some references toprotocols and ideas that have worked with some children. One of thereferences was to Margaret Ayers' incontinence protocol. Does anyoneknow what that protocol actually is? I'd welcome any additional thoughts/ideas about what has worked withkiddos in the past. As always, thanks!Tamson All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Tamson,Thank you for the protocol. I have had success with neurodevelopmental activities like belly crawling on the floor. If you are interested, you can contact me and I will explain to you how to actually do the exercises more in details. Also, sensory integration activities help. Suzanne DayNeuropsychologist The "Margaret Ayres" incontinence training might be the one Cory Hammond has championed for balance . It's one channel, bi-polar placement: at just below O1 and O2. Inhibit 4-8hz, reward 15-18hz (maybe lower in a 7yo.) This has helped some physical balance problems, with an added bonus of improving incontinence. Re: enuresis in 7 yo girl Would you say this child has at least average cognition? How is her social connectedness? I'm wondering how a 7 year old could ignore wet pants if she is around other kids, who would typically shame a peer in that situation. I will be interested to hear how she progresses.foxmaven <tamsontamson (DOT) tv> wrote: Hello everyone--I'm working with a 7 yo girl who often wets her pants during the dayand at night as well. This problem has been with her since toilettraining, so it's not at all new, and does not seem to be the resultof a physical or medical condition. Mom reports that when the childwets her pants during the day, many times she will ignore thesituation and continue on in her soiled clothing. So I'm wondering ifthe child would benefit from some training that would increase herawareness of body sensations.I've done a search through the archives and found some references toprotocols and ideas that have worked with some children. One of thereferences was to Margaret Ayers' incontinence protocol. Does anyoneknow what that protocol actually is? I'd welcome any additional thoughts/ideas about what has worked withkiddos in the past. As always, thanks!Tamson All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Hi , That sounds like it would have been a good case for NFB. Embarrassment is a good sign that she was essentially intact.Logic is inconsistent, yet emphatic. I know of several kids who have stopped bedwetting with NFB but have not known too many kids with daytime enuresis or encopresis who didn't also have some co-existing conditions (e.g., mental illness, mental retardation, medical issues) which probably wouldn't have been so responsive to a treatment model based on underarousal. So this is good info for me. Thanks, Duncan wrote: ~ The child I knew who did this was in the gifted program at school but in such a spacey state that she was not able to pay attention to the signs until it was too late. Once she had wet or soiled she was embarrassed and would call home and ask for dry clothes. It was harder for her to hold her bladder when she was nervous. She is now a young adult and is doing just fine, sorted itself out by 10. The urologist also mentioned that sometimes these kids have an immature nervous system in their bladder and they cant read the signs like they should. ~ Re: enuresis in 7 yo girl Would you say this child has at least average cognition? How is her social connectedness? I'm wondering how a 7 year old could ignore wet pants if she is around other kids, who would typically shame a peer in that situation. I will be interested to hear how she progresses.foxmaven <tamsontamson (DOT) tv> wrote: Hello everyone--I'm working with a 7 yo girl who often wets her pants during the dayand at night as well. This problem has been with her since toilettraining, so it's not at all new, and does not seem to be the resultof a physical or medical condition. Mom reports that when the childwets her pants during the day, many times she will ignore thesituation and continue on in her soiled clothing. So I'm wondering ifthe child would benefit from some training that would increase herawareness of body sensations.I've done a search through the archives and found some references toprotocols and ideas that have worked with some children. One of thereferences was to Margaret Ayers' incontinence protocol. Does anyoneknow what that protocol actually is? I'd welcome any additional thoughts/ideas about what has worked withkiddos in the past. As always, thanks!Tamson Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 ~ I just remembered that her mother complained that when she was home or in the neighborhood playing she did not feel embarrassed enough to come home to change, it was only in the more controlled environment of school that she was aware of the embarrassment and asked for a change. Yes NF probably would have been good for her, but that was years ago. ~ Re: enuresis in 7 yo girl Would you say this child has at least average cognition? How is her social connectedness? I'm wondering how a 7 year old could ignore wet pants if she is around other kids, who would typically shame a peer in that situation. I will be interested to hear how she progresses.foxmaven <tamsontamson (DOT) tv> wrote: Hello everyone--I'm working with a 7 yo girl who often wets her pants during the dayand at night as well. This problem has been with her since toilettraining, so it's not at all new, and does not seem to be the resultof a physical or medical condition. Mom reports that when the childwets her pants during the day, many times she will ignore thesituation and continue on in her soiled clothing. So I'm wondering ifthe child would benefit from some training that would increase herawareness of body sensations.I've done a search through the archives and found some references toprotocols and ideas that have worked with some children. One of thereferences was to Margaret Ayers' incontinence protocol. Does anyoneknow what that protocol actually is? I'd welcome any additional thoughts/ideas about what has worked withkiddos in the past. As always, thanks!Tamson Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Then there's EMG biofeedback that helps to retrain the pelvic floor in little old ladies....not sure that's the problem with the 7yo. Re: enuresis in 7 yo girl Would you say this child has at least average cognition? How is her social connectedness? I'm wondering how a 7 year old could ignore wet pants if she is around other kids, who would typically shame a peer in that situation. I will be interested to hear how she progresses.foxmaven <tamsontamson (DOT) tv> wrote: Hello everyone--I'm working with a 7 yo girl who often wets her pants during the dayand at night as well. This problem has been with her since toilettraining, so it's not at all new, and does not seem to be the resultof a physical or medical condition. Mom reports that when the childwets her pants during the day, many times she will ignore thesituation and continue on in her soiled clothing. So I'm wondering ifthe child would benefit from some training that would increase herawareness of body sensations.I've done a search through the archives and found some references toprotocols and ideas that have worked with some children. One of thereferences was to Margaret Ayers' incontinence protocol. Does anyoneknow what that protocol actually is? I'd welcome any additional thoughts/ideas about what has worked withkiddos in the past. As always, thanks!Tamson All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 I have been a Pediatric Nurse for 31 years and have 5 children of my own. If the 7 year old girl has done this since potty training - maybe her potty training did not include practice runs from every corner of the house - as suggested in the book "Potty Training in One Day". The urge may come for her - but is ignored due to the fact that she does not have the experience of ":running" to the bathroom when the urge hits. I suggest the book could be reviewed for other tips as well. Also, for weak muscles there are those good 'ole cagle exercises - the ones that you strengthen when you intentionally stop the stream of urine while urinating. Could help control. I would also like the information about any EEG protocols that any one has found for this as I am starting to work with ADD and ADHD children as well as those that are mentally handicapped. I have a son that wet the bed until he was 14 years old - the alarm woke up everyone in the whole house but him - nothing worked. He was diagnosed as "input processing problems" with other problems such as delayed speech. He has since out-grown (now 22 years old) most of the processing problems - had 5 years of speech and hearing therapy and 2 years in a special school, but the thing that turned the corner for him was the fact that he injured himself on a ladder of a tree house and had to have a cystoscopy and after the procedure, he never wet the bed again...... Maybe the stretching of the bladder helped. Seems so for my son. (He also had deep REM sleep patterns and would not easily wake up for years and years...) I am just a nurse, Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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