Guest guest Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Hi Suzanne and Jill~ Hope you don't mind if I jump in.... In the TLC you are looking for Alpha /theta ratios to be 1.0 in the frontals and the centrals and then 1.5 and higher in the parietals with eyes closed and drop 30-50 % with EO and Tsk but I haven't been able to figure out what the alpha/beta ratios are yet, if they are even important. My kids have tons of Alpha, everywhere, not that I'm getting the alpha down that much, its very invasive. Suzanne was right in refereeing to L-R alpha and beta reversals. (correct me if I'm wrong about what you meant) You want 15% more alpha on the right frontal than alpha on the left frontal and 10% more beta in the left frontal than beta on the right frontal but ratios for how much alpha should be over the head compared to beta is not listed in the TLC and usually you don't hear much about the A/B ratios but I heard someone talking about them so I got curious. Thanks, ~ RE: Alpha /Beta ratios Dear Suzanne, Sometimes things must ‘come up’ in practice before they make much sense. Hence, the late response to your kind email to . When you say that the alpha/beta should be 1.1 but you don’t specify a location, I’m somewhat confused. Do you mean that the alpha/beta ratio should be 1.1, and at what location (I’m assuming F3 or F4 or both)? With eyes closed or open? On task? Jill From: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf Of Suzanne DaySent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:30 AMTo: braintrainer Subject: Re: Alpha /Beta ratios I have listened and learned a lot... it is my time to try to answer. According to Pete's notes from the workshop, FRONTAL Beta should be higher (10-15%) on the left and Alpha higher (10 to 15%) on the right. Alpha/Beta should be 1.1 Suzanne Hi Pete~ I know you don't have the Alpha /beta ratios listed on the assessment but I wondered if you know what those ratios should be. I heard someone say 2.0 but since its acceptable for theta/beta ratio to be as high as 2.0 I wondered if maybe that number was low. Thanks for any light, ~ --No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.7/488 - Release Date: 10/19/2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Dear Pete and , This is helpful. I thought that the alphas should be measured at F3/F4 and compared with each other rather than compared with the betas. Actually, I am working with trying to understand symmetries and what we’re really shooting for when training alpha asymmetry. Then I can build a screen which will do that in a similar way to Baehr, Rosenfeld & Baehr’s method (unless that’s much outdated in which case please tell me!) The alpha/beta ratio is therefore a separate issue, if I understand you correctly. Is there an appropriate reason to look at or try to interpret an alpha/beta ratio? If not, I won’t worry about it! Jill From: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf Of Van Deusen Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 11:11 AM To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Alpha /Beta ratios Jill, Actually this is not the alpha/beta ratio Suzanne is describing. It is the alpha F4 / alpha F3 or Beta F3 / Beta F4. These are symmetry ratios which measure whether the left or right prefrontal areas are dominant. We usually look at them with eyes closed, though you can do so with eyes open as well. As for 's question, I don't have the alpha / beta ratios on the assessment, since I don't really know of a good basis for a ratio. With eyes closed, in the front of the head, we want theta to be about 1.5 times beta, and we want alpha to be about even with theta (A/T ratio of 1), so presumable alpha/beta would be about the same as theta/beta, or around 1.5. In the back of the head, we want alpha/theta to be around 1.5 .. If theta / beta is also around 1.5, then alpha / beta should be around 2.25. Hope this is helpful. Pete On 1/4/07, Glacier Biofeedback <voyagercyberport (DOT) net> wrote: Dear Suzanne, Sometimes things must 'come up' in practice before they make much sense. Hence, the late response to your kind email to . When you say that the alpha/beta should be 1.1 but you don't specify a location, I'm somewhat confused. Do you mean that the alpha/beta ratio should be 1.1, and at what location (I'm assuming F3 or F4 or both)? With eyes closed or open? On task? Jill From: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf Of Suzanne Day Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:30 AM To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Alpha /Beta ratios I have listened and learned a lot... it is my time to try to answer. According to Pete's notes from the workshop, FRONTAL Beta should be higher (10-15%) on the left and Alpha higher (10 to 15%) on the right. Alpha/Beta should be 1.1 Suzanne Hi Pete~ I know you don't have the Alpha /beta ratios listed on the assessment but I wondered if you know what those ratios should be. I heard someone say 2.0 but since its acceptable for theta/beta ratio to be as high as 2.0 I wondered if maybe that number was low. Thanks for any light, ~ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.7/488 - Release Date: 10/19/2006 -- Van Deusen pvdtlcgmail http://www.brain-trainer.com 305/433-3160 The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 In the TLC BioExplorer design package there are a couple alpha beta symmetry designs and a couple alpha or beta balance packages. I don't like using the Baehr method, though you can do so (but watch out for Rosenfeld's patent). You set up an expression in BioExplorer, run alpha from Channel 1 (F3) into Input 1 and alpha from Channel 2 (F4) into Input 2. The formula is (in2-in1)/(in2+in1). The problem is that this gives you feedback when alpha is equal or higher on the right side (where you want it to be 10-15% higher). I prefer the simpler In2/In1 and set the threshold at 1.1. This will give feedback whenever right side alpha is 10%or more higher at F4. Also, the Baehrs use F3/Cz and F4/Cz as their montage--linking both actives to a reference at Cz. I much prefer F3/A1 and F4/A2 with linked ears as the reference. The first way tends to train over the cingulate, which can result in some issues of obsessive or compulsive behaviors; the second way gives the same benefit (both sides compared against the same reference) but trains away from the cingulate. Pete Dear Pete and , This is helpful. I thought that the alphas should be measured at F3/F4 and compared with each other rather than compared with the betas. Actually, I am working with trying to understand symmetries and what we're really shooting for when training alpha asymmetry. Then I can build a screen which will do that in a similar way to Baehr, Rosenfeld & Baehr's method (unless that's much outdated in which case please tell me!) The alpha/beta ratio is therefore a separate issue, if I understand you correctly. Is there an appropriate reason to look at or try to interpret an alpha/beta ratio? If not, I won't worry about it! Jill From: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf Of Van Deusen Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 11:11 AM To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Alpha /Beta ratios Jill, Actually this is not the alpha/beta ratio Suzanne is describing. It is the alpha F4 / alpha F3 or Beta F3 / Beta F4. These are symmetry ratios which measure whether the left or right prefrontal areas are dominant. We usually look at them with eyes closed, though you can do so with eyes open as well. As for 's question, I don't have the alpha / beta ratios on the assessment, since I don't really know of a good basis for a ratio. With eyes closed, in the front of the head, we want theta to be about 1.5 times beta, and we want alpha to be about even with theta (A/T ratio of 1), so presumable alpha/beta would be about the same as theta/beta, or around 1.5. In the back of the head, we want alpha/theta to be around 1.5 .. If theta / beta is also around 1.5, then alpha / beta should be around 2.25. Hope this is helpful. Pete On 1/4/07, Glacier Biofeedback < voyager@...> wrote: Dear Suzanne, Sometimes things must 'come up' in practice before they make much sense. Hence, the late response to your kind email to . When you say that the alpha/beta should be 1.1 but you don't specify a location, I'm somewhat confused. Do you mean that the alpha/beta ratio should be 1.1, and at what location (I'm assuming F3 or F4 or both)? With eyes closed or open? On task? Jill From: braintrainer [mailto: braintrainer ] On Behalf Of Suzanne DaySent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:30 AM To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Alpha /Beta ratios I have listened and learned a lot... it is my time to try to answer. According to Pete's notes from the workshop, FRONTAL Beta should be higher (10-15%) on the left and Alpha higher (10 to 15%) on the right. Alpha/Beta should be 1.1 Suzanne Hi Pete~ I know you don't have the Alpha /beta ratios listed on the assessment but I wondered if you know what those ratios should be. I heard someone say 2.0 but since its acceptable for theta/beta ratio to be as high as 2.0 I wondered if maybe that number was low. Thanks for any light, ~ --No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.7 /488 - Release Date: 10/19/2006 -- Van Deusen pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. -- Van Deusen pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Hi all, The Rosenfeld " patent " is located at the: http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5450855-fulltext.html After reading this text a few times, I think that the main point of this " new discovery " is to do with the software which describes how the EEG is analysed and the reward is produced. The rest is a great summary of articles and research done in this area. You may all like to read this text, as I do myself, in order to understand how the brain can change due to NF and other areas of research. Bye for now. ------- -- -- Prof. Doutor Alvoeiro,PhD(Hull,UK),C.Psych.(BPS,UK) Instituto Piaget - I.S.E.I.T. Campus Universitário de Viseu, Estrada do Alto do Gaio, Galifonge, 3515-776 Lordosa, Portugal Tel: (351) 914 723 883 e-mail: labpsico@... Fomos ainda mais longe! ADSL até 24 Mb + Telefone livre de assinatura por apenas € 34,9/mês Acabe de vez com os € 15 da assinatura telefónica! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Oh! Now, would this be Francois’ TLC Assessment and Feedback for the Infiniti that I already bought for my Infiniti? I’ve looked through that suite and found several training screens, browsed through them. One looked like it could fit the bill but it had two reward bands per channel, i.e. four rewards in all, so I’m not sure what to do with the extra two reward bands. The inhibits and rewards looked very flexible, but maybe you’re talking about the 6-channel assessment that has just been developed? Jill From: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf Of Van Deusen Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 7:27 PM To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Alpha /Beta ratios Unfortunately, it's possible to patent anything as long as nobody challenges it, and no-one has bothered to challenge 's patent because it is so easy to work around it. You can certainly set up any of the formulae I mentioned in Infiniti. Francois DuPont's TLC Suite already has these files on it. Pete On 1/4/07, Glacier Biofeedback <voyagercyberport (DOT) net> wrote: Pete, Thanks so much for your insight and experience. I'd no idea that Rosenfeld had a patent. On a protocol? Although I'm using the Infiniti, I believe that I can set up the calculation that you advise. I'd rather not mess with the cingulate! The linked ears is easier as well, and I'd wondered about that when reading the protocol in the article. Thanks again! Jill From: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf Of Van Deusen Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 1:43 PM To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Alpha /Beta ratios In the TLC BioExplorer design package there are a couple alpha beta symmetry designs and a couple alpha or beta balance packages. I don't like using the Baehr method, though you can do so (but watch out for Rosenfeld's patent). You set up an expression in BioExplorer, run alpha from Channel 1 (F3) into Input 1 and alpha from Channel 2 (F4) into Input 2. The formula is (in2-in1)/(in2+in1). The problem is that this gives you feedback when alpha is equal or higher on the right side (where you want it to be 10-15% higher). I prefer the simpler In2/In1 and set the threshold at 1.1. This will give feedback whenever right side alpha is 10% or more higher at F4. Also, the Baehrs use F3/Cz and F4/Cz as their montage--linking both actives to a reference at Cz. I much prefer F3/A1 and F4/A2 with linked ears as the reference. The first way tends to train over the cingulate, which can result in some issues of obsessive or compulsive behaviors; the second way gives the same benefit (both sides compared against the same reference) but trains away from the cingulate. Pete On 1/4/07, Glacier Biofeedback < voyagercyberport (DOT) net> wrote: Dear Pete and , This is helpful. I thought that the alphas should be measured at F3/F4 and compared with each other rather than compared with the betas. Actually, I am working with trying to understand symmetries and what we're really shooting for when training alpha asymmetry. Then I can build a screen which will do that in a similar way to Baehr, Rosenfeld & Baehr's method (unless that's much outdated in which case please tell me!) The alpha/beta ratio is therefore a separate issue, if I understand you correctly. Is there an appropriate reason to look at or try to interpret an alpha/beta ratio? If not, I won't worry about it! Jill From: braintrainer [mailto: braintrainer ] On Behalf Of Van Deusen Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 11:11 AM To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Alpha /Beta ratios Jill, Actually this is not the alpha/beta ratio Suzanne is describing. It is the alpha F4 / alpha F3 or Beta F3 / Beta F4. These are symmetry ratios which measure whether the left or right prefrontal areas are dominant. We usually look at them with eyes closed, though you can do so with eyes open as well. As for 's question, I don't have the alpha / beta ratios on the assessment, since I don't really know of a good basis for a ratio. With eyes closed, in the front of the head, we want theta to be about 1.5 times beta, and we want alpha to be about even with theta (A/T ratio of 1), so presumable alpha/beta would be about the same as theta/beta, or around 1.5. In the back of the head, we want alpha/theta to be around 1.5 .. If theta / beta is also around 1.5, then alpha / beta should be around 2.25. Hope this is helpful. Pete On 1/4/07, Glacier Biofeedback < voyagercyberport (DOT) net> wrote: Dear Suzanne, Sometimes things must 'come up' in practice before they make much sense. Hence, the late response to your kind email to . When you say that the alpha/beta should be 1.1 but you don't specify a location, I'm somewhat confused. Do you mean that the alpha/beta ratio should be 1.1, and at what location (I'm assuming F3 or F4 or both)? With eyes closed or open? On task? Jill From: braintrainer [mailto: braintrainer ] On Behalf Of Suzanne Day Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:30 AM To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Alpha /Beta ratios I have listened and learned a lot... it is my time to try to answer. According to Pete's notes from the workshop, FRONTAL Beta should be higher (10-15%) on the left and Alpha higher (10 to 15%) on the right. Alpha/Beta should be 1.1 Suzanne Hi Pete~ I know you don't have the Alpha /beta ratios listed on the assessment but I wondered if you know what those ratios should be. I heard someone say 2.0 but since its acceptable for theta/beta ratio to be as high as 2.0 I wondered if maybe that number was low. Thanks for any light, ~ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.7 /488 - Release Date: 10/19/2006 -- Van Deusen pvdtlcgmail http://www.brain-trainer.com 305/433-3160 The Learning Curve, Inc. -- Van Deusen pvdtlcgmail http://www.brain-trainer.com 305/433-3160 The Learning Curve, Inc. -- Van Deusen pvdtlcgmail http://www.brain-trainer.com 305/433-3160 The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 I don't believe the balance or alpha beta symmetry protocols have been released yet. It is my understanding that the big long-awaited update, with the screens and the ability to gather up to 6 channels at a time in the assessment is due to be mailed out in the next few weeks, so you should have them then. Pete Oh! Now, would this be Francois' TLC Assessment and Feedback for the Infiniti that I already bought for my Infiniti? I've looked through that suite and found several training screens, browsed through them. One looked like it could fit the bill but it had two reward bands per channel, i.e. four rewards in all, so I'm not sure what to do with the extra two reward bands. The inhibits and rewards looked very flexible, but maybe you're talking about the 6-channel assessment that has just been developed? Jill From: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf Of Van Deusen Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 7:27 PMTo: braintrainer Subject: Re: Alpha /Beta ratios Unfortunately, it's possible to patent anything as long as nobody challenges it, and no-one has bothered to challenge 's patent because it is so easy to work around it. You can certainly set up any of the formulae I mentioned in Infiniti. Francois DuPont's TLC Suite already has these files on it. Pete On 1/4/07, Glacier Biofeedback < voyager@...> wrote: Pete, Thanks so much for your insight and experience. I'd no idea that Rosenfeld had a patent. On a protocol? Although I'm using the Infiniti, I believe that I can set up the calculation that you advise. I'd rather not mess with the cingulate! The linked ears is easier as well, and I'd wondered about that when reading the protocol in the article. Thanks again! Jill From: braintrainer [mailto: braintrainer ] On Behalf Of Van DeusenSent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 1:43 PM To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Alpha /Beta ratios In the TLC BioExplorer design package there are a couple alpha beta symmetry designs and a couple alpha or beta balance packages. I don't like using the Baehr method, though you can do so (but watch out for Rosenfeld's patent). You set up an expression in BioExplorer, run alpha from Channel 1 (F3) into Input 1 and alpha from Channel 2 (F4) into Input 2. The formula is (in2-in1)/(in2+in1). The problem is that this gives you feedback when alpha is equal or higher on the right side (where you want it to be 10-15% higher). I prefer the simpler In2/In1 and set the threshold at 1.1. This will give feedback whenever right side alpha is 10%or more higher at F4. Also, the Baehrs use F3/Cz and F4/Cz as their montage--linking both actives to a reference at Cz. I much prefer F3/A1 and F4/A2 with linked ears as the reference. The first way tends to train over the cingulate, which can result in some issues of obsessive or compulsive behaviors; the second way gives the same benefit (both sides compared against the same reference) but trains away from the cingulate. Pete On 1/4/07, Glacier Biofeedback < voyager@...> wrote: Dear Pete and , This is helpful. I thought that the alphas should be measured at F3/F4 and compared with each other rather than compared with the betas. Actually, I am working with trying to understand symmetries and what we're really shooting for when training alpha asymmetry. Then I can build a screen which will do that in a similar way to Baehr, Rosenfeld & Baehr's method (unless that's much outdated in which case please tell me!) The alpha/beta ratio is therefore a separate issue, if I understand you correctly. Is there an appropriate reason to look at or try to interpret an alpha/beta ratio? If not, I won't worry about it! Jill From: braintrainer [mailto: braintrainer ] On Behalf Of Van DeusenSent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 11:11 AM To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Alpha /Beta ratios Jill, Actually this is not the alpha/beta ratio Suzanne is describing. It is the alpha F4 / alpha F3 or Beta F3 / Beta F4. These are symmetry ratios which measure whether the left or right prefrontal areas are dominant. We usually look at them with eyes closed, though you can do so with eyes open as well. As for 's question, I don't have the alpha / beta ratios on the assessment, since I don't really know of a good basis for a ratio. With eyes closed, in the front of the head, we want theta to be about 1.5 times beta, and we want alpha to be about even with theta (A/T ratio of 1), so presumable alpha/beta would be about the same as theta/beta, or around 1.5. In the back of the head, we want alpha/theta to be around 1.5 .. If theta / beta is also around 1.5, then alpha / beta should be around 2.25. Hope this is helpful. Pete On 1/4/07, Glacier Biofeedback < voyager@...> wrote: Dear Suzanne, Sometimes things must 'come up' in practice before they make much sense. Hence, the late response to your kind email to . When you say that the alpha/beta should be 1.1 but you don't specify a location, I'm somewhat confused. Do you mean that the alpha/beta ratio should be 1.1, and at what location (I'm assuming F3 or F4 or both)? With eyes closed or open? On task? Jill From: braintrainer [mailto: braintrainer ] On Behalf Of Suzanne DaySent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:30 AM To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Alpha /Beta ratios I have listened and learned a lot... it is my time to try to answer. According to Pete's notes from the workshop, FRONTAL Beta should be higher (10-15%) on the left and Alpha higher (10 to 15%) on the right. Alpha/Beta should be 1.1 Suzanne Hi Pete~ I know you don't have the Alpha /beta ratios listed on the assessment but I wondered if you know what those ratios should be. I heard someone say 2.0 but since its acceptable for theta/beta ratio to be as high as 2.0 I wondered if maybe that number was low. Thanks for any light, ~ --No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.7 /488 - Release Date: 10/19/2006 -- Van Deusen pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. -- Van Deusen pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. -- Van Deusen pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. -- Van Deusen pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 You are right , and you can see some nice screen captures in the TLC Suite Brochure at this address: http://www.bfe.org/store/TLCASSESS03.pdf If you zoom in at 400%, you see all the details of one Alpha beta symmetry screen. The description of the courses will be there opefully next week. BTW, TTL will be presenting the new version of BioGraph Infiniti software at the AAPB conference in mid February. We will get coherences and z-scores metrics and all kind of nice stuff. See the attached file. Have a good weekend Francois Dupont > >Reply-To: braintrainer >To: braintrainer >Subject: Re: Alpha /Beta ratios >Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 19:59:27 -0200 > >I don't believe the balance or alpha beta symmetry protocols have been >released yet. It is my understanding that the big long-awaited update, >with >the screens and the ability to gather up to 6 channels at a time in the >assessment is due to be mailed out in the next few weeks, so you should >have >them then. > >Pete > > > >> >> Oh! Now, would this be Francois' TLC Assessment and Feedback for the >>Infiniti that I already bought for my Infiniti? I've looked through that >>suite and found several training screens, browsed through them. One >>looked >>like it could fit the bill but it had two reward bands per channel, i.e. >>four rewards in all, so I'm not sure what to do with the extra two reward >>bands. The inhibits and rewards looked very flexible, but maybe you're >>talking about the 6-channel assessment that has just been developed? >> >> >> >>Jill >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >>*From:* braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] >>*On Behalf Of * Van Deusen >>*Sent:* Thursday, January 04, 2007 7:27 PM >>*To:* braintrainer >>*Subject:* Re: Alpha /Beta ratios >> >> >> >>Unfortunately, it's possible to patent anything as long as nobody >>challenges it, and no-one has bothered to challenge 's patent because >>it is so easy to work around it. >> >> >> >>You can certainly set up any of the formulae I mentioned in Infiniti. >>Francois DuPont's TLC Suite already has these files on it. >> >> >> >>Pete >> >> >> >> >> >>Pete, >> >> Thanks so much for your insight and experience. I'd no idea >>that Rosenfeld had a patent. On a protocol? Although I'm using the >>Infiniti, I believe that I can set up the calculation that you advise. >>I'd >>rather not mess with the cingulate! The linked ears is easier as well, >>and >>I'd wondered about that when reading the protocol in the article. Thanks >>again! >> >> >> >>Jill >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >>*From:* braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] >>*On Behalf Of * Van Deusen >>*Sent:* Thursday, January 04, 2007 1:43 PM >> >> >>*To:* braintrainer >>*Subject: *Re: Alpha /Beta ratios >> >> >> >>In the TLC BioExplorer design package there are a couple alpha beta >>symmetry designs and a couple alpha or beta balance packages. I don't >>like >>using the Baehr method, though you can do so (but watch out for >>Rosenfeld's patent). You set up an expression in BioExplorer, run alpha >>from Channel 1 (F3) into Input 1 and alpha from Channel 2 (F4) into Input >>2. The formula is (in2-in1)/(in2+in1). The problem is that this gives >>you >>feedback when alpha is equal or higher on the right side (where you want >>it >>to be 10-15% higher). I prefer the simpler In2/In1 and set the threshold >>at >>1.1. This will give feedback whenever right side alpha is 10% >>or more higher at F4. >> >> >> >>Also, the Baehrs use F3/Cz and F4/Cz as their montage--linking both >>actives to a reference at Cz. I much prefer F3/A1 and F4/A2 with linked >>ears as the reference. The first way tends to train over the cingulate, >>which can result in some issues of obsessive or compulsive behaviors; the >>second way gives the same benefit (both sides compared against the same >>reference) but trains away from the cingulate. >> >> >> >>Pete >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Dear Pete and , >> >> This *is* helpful. I thought that the alphas should be >>measured at F3/F4 and compared with each other rather than compared with >>the >>betas. Actually, I am working with trying to understand symmetries and >>what >>we're really shooting for when training alpha asymmetry. Then I can build >>a >>screen which will do that in a similar way to Baehr, Rosenfeld & Baehr's >>method (unless that's much outdated in which case please tell me!) >> >> The alpha/beta ratio is therefore a separate issue, if I >>understand you correctly. Is there an appropriate reason to look at or >>try >>to interpret an alpha/beta ratio? If not, I won't worry about it! >> >> >> >>Jill >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >>*From:* braintrainer [mailto: >>braintrainer ] >>*On Behalf Of * Van Deusen >>*Sent:* Thursday, January 04, 2007 11:11 AM >> >> >>*To:* braintrainer >>*Subject: *Re: Alpha /Beta ratios >> >> >> >>Jill, >> >> >> >>Actually this is not the alpha/beta ratio Suzanne is describing. It is >>the alpha F4 / alpha F3 or Beta F3 / Beta F4. These are symmetry ratios >>which measure whether the left or right prefrontal areas are dominant. We >>usually look at them with eyes closed, though you can do so with eyes open >>as well. >> >> >> >>As for 's question, I don't have the alpha / beta ratios on the >>assessment, since I don't really know of a good basis for a ratio. With >>eyes closed, in the front of the head, we want theta to be about 1.5 times >>beta, and we want alpha to be about even with theta (A/T ratio of 1), so >>presumable alpha/beta would be about the same as theta/beta, or around >>1.5. >>In the back of the head, we want alpha/theta to be around 1.5 . If theta >>/ beta is also around 1.5, then alpha / beta should be around 2.25. >> >> >> >>Hope this is helpful. >> >> >> >>Pete >> >> >> >> >> >>Dear Suzanne, >> >> Sometimes things must 'come up' in practice before they make >>much sense. Hence, the late response to your kind email to . When >>you >>say that the alpha/beta should be 1.1 but you don't specify a location, >>I'm somewhat confused. Do you mean that the alpha/beta ratio should be >>1.1, and at what location (I'm assuming F3 or F4 or both)? With eyes >>closed or open? On task? >> >> >> >>Jill >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >>*From:* braintrainer [mailto: >>braintrainer ] >>*On Behalf Of *Suzanne Day >>*Sent:* Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:30 AM >>*To:* braintrainer >>*Subject:* Re: Alpha /Beta ratios >> >> >> >>I have listened and learned a lot... it is my time to try to answer. >> >>According to Pete's notes from the workshop, >> >>FRONTAL Beta should be higher (10-15%) on the left and Alpha higher (10 to >>15%) on the right. Alpha/Beta should be 1.1 >> >> >> >>Suzanne >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Hi Pete~ >> >>I know you don't have the Alpha /beta ratios listed on the assessment but >>I wondered if you know what those ratios should be. I heard someone say >>2.0 but since its acceptable for theta/beta ratio to be as high as 2.0 I >>wondered if maybe that number was low. Thanks for any light, >> >>~ >> >> >> >> >> >>-- >>No virus found in this incoming message. >>Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.7 /488 - Release Date: >>10/19/2006 >> >> >> >> >>-- >> Van Deusen >>pvdtlc@... >>http://www.brain-trainer.com >>305/433-3160 >>The Learning Curve, Inc. >> >> >> >> >>-- >> Van Deusen >>pvdtlc@... >>http://www.brain-trainer.com >>305/433-3160 >>The Learning Curve, Inc. >> >> >> >> >>-- >> Van Deusen >>pvdtlc@... >>http://www.brain-trainer.com >>305/433-3160 >>The Learning Curve, Inc. >> > > > > >-- > Van Deusen >pvdtlc@... >http://www.brain-trainer.com >305/433-3160 >The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 With the attached file! Francois To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Alpha /Beta ratiosDate: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 17:27:36 -0500>You are right , and you can see some nice screen captures in >the TLC Suite Brochure at this address:>>http://www.bfe.org/store/TLCASSESS03.pdf>>If you zoom in at 400%, you see all the details of one Alpha beta >symmetry screen.>>The description of the courses will be there opefully next week.>>BTW, TTL will be presenting the new version of BioGraph Infiniti >software at the AAPB conference in mid February. We will get >coherences and z-scores metrics and all kind of nice stuff.>>See the attached file.>>Have a good weekend>>Francois Dupont>>>>>>Reply-To: braintrainer >>To: braintrainer >>Subject: Re: Alpha /Beta ratios>>Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 19:59:27 -0200>>>>I don't believe the balance or alpha beta symmetry protocols have >>been>>released yet. It is my understanding that the big long-awaited >>update, with>>the screens and the ability to gather up to 6 channels at a time in >>the>>assessment is due to be mailed out in the next few weeks, so you >>should have>>them then.>>>>Pete>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh! Now, would this be Francois' TLC Assessment and Feedback >>>for the>>>Infiniti that I already bought for my Infiniti? I've looked >>>through that>>>suite and found several training screens, browsed through them. >>>One looked>>>like it could fit the bill but it had two reward bands per >>>channel, i.e.>>>four rewards in all, so I'm not sure what to do with the extra two >>>reward>>>bands. The inhibits and rewards looked very flexible, but maybe >>>you're>>>talking about the 6-channel assessment that has just been >>>developed?>>>>>>>>>>>>Jill>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------>>>>>>*From:* braintrainer >>>[mailto:braintrainer ]>>>*On Behalf Of * Van Deusen>>>*Sent:* Thursday, January 04, 2007 7:27 PM>>>*To:* braintrainer >>>*Subject:* Re: Alpha /Beta ratios>>>>>>>>>>>>Unfortunately, it's possible to patent anything as long as nobody>>>challenges it, and no-one has bothered to challenge 's patent >>>because>>>it is so easy to work around it.>>>>>>>>>>>>You can certainly set up any of the formulae I mentioned in >>>Infiniti.>>>Francois DuPont's TLC Suite already has these files on it.>>>>>>>>>>>>Pete>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pete,>>>>>> Thanks so much for your insight and experience. I'd >>>no idea>>>that Rosenfeld had a patent. On a protocol? Although I'm using >>>the>>>Infiniti, I believe that I can set up the calculation that you >>>advise. I'd>>>rather not mess with the cingulate! The linked ears is easier as >>>well, and>>>I'd wondered about that when reading the protocol in the article. >>>Thanks>>>again!>>>>>>>>>>>>Jill>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------>>>>>>*From:* braintrainer >>>[mailto:braintrainer ]>>>*On Behalf Of * Van Deusen>>>*Sent:* Thursday, January 04, 2007 1:43 PM>>>>>>>>>*To:* braintrainer >>>*Subject: *Re: Alpha /Beta ratios>>>>>>>>>>>>In the TLC BioExplorer design package there are a couple alpha >>>beta>>>symmetry designs and a couple alpha or beta balance packages. I >>>don't like>>>using the Baehr method, though you can do so (but watch out for >>>>>>Rosenfeld's patent). You set up an expression in BioExplorer, run >>>alpha>>>from Channel 1 (F3) into Input 1 and alpha from Channel 2 (F4) >>>into Input>>>2. The formula is (in2-in1)/(in2+in1). The problem is that this >>>gives you>>>feedback when alpha is equal or higher on the right side (where >>>you want it>>>to be 10-15% higher). I prefer the simpler In2/In1 and set the >>>threshold at>>>1.1. This will give feedback whenever right side alpha is 10%>>>or more higher at F4.>>>>>>>>>>>>Also, the Baehrs use F3/Cz and F4/Cz as their montage--linking >>>both>>>actives to a reference at Cz. I much prefer F3/A1 and F4/A2 with >>>linked>>>ears as the reference. The first way tends to train over the >>>cingulate,>>>which can result in some issues of obsessive or compulsive >>>behaviors; the>>>second way gives the same benefit (both sides compared against the >>>same>>>reference) but trains away from the cingulate.>>>>>>>>>>>>Pete>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dear Pete and ,>>>>>> This *is* helpful. I thought that the alphas should >>>be>>>measured at F3/F4 and compared with each other rather than >>>compared with the>>>betas. Actually, I am working with trying to understand >>>symmetries and what>>>we're really shooting for when training alpha asymmetry. Then I >>>can build a>>>screen which will do that in a similar way to Baehr, Rosenfeld & >>>Baehr's>>>method (unless that's much outdated in which case please tell me!)>>>>>> The alpha/beta ratio is therefore a separate issue, >>>if I>>>understand you correctly. Is there an appropriate reason to look >>>at or try>>>to interpret an alpha/beta ratio? If not, I won't worry about it!>>>>>>>>>>>>Jill>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------>>>>>>*From:* braintrainer [mailto: >>>braintrainer ]>>>*On Behalf Of * Van Deusen>>>*Sent:* Thursday, January 04, 2007 11:11 AM>>>>>>>>>*To:* braintrainer >>>*Subject: *Re: Alpha /Beta ratios>>>>>>>>>>>>Jill,>>>>>>>>>>>>Actually this is not the alpha/beta ratio Suzanne is describing. >>>It is>>>the alpha F4 / alpha F3 or Beta F3 / Beta F4. These are symmetry >>>ratios>>>which measure whether the left or right prefrontal areas are >>>dominant. We>>>usually look at them with eyes closed, though you can do so with >>>eyes open>>>as well.>>>>>>>>>>>>As for 's question, I don't have the alpha / beta ratios on >>>the>>>assessment, since I don't really know of a good basis for a ratio. >>> With>>>eyes closed, in the front of the head, we want theta to be about >>>1.5 times>>>beta, and we want alpha to be about even with theta (A/T ratio of >>>1), so>>>presumable alpha/beta would be about the same as theta/beta, or >>>around 1.5.>>>In the back of the head, we want alpha/theta to be around 1.5 . >>>If theta>>>/ beta is also around 1.5, then alpha / beta should be around >>>2.25.>>>>>>>>>>>>Hope this is helpful.>>>>>>>>>>>>Pete>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dear Suzanne,>>>>>> Sometimes things must 'come up' in practice before >>>they make>>>much sense. Hence, the late response to your kind email to . >>> When you>>>say that the alpha/beta should be 1.1 but you don't specify a >>>location,>>>I'm somewhat confused. Do you mean that the alpha/beta ratio >>>should be>>>1.1, and at what location (I'm assuming F3 or F4 or both)? With >>>eyes>>>closed or open? On task?>>>>>>>>>>>>Jill>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------>>>>>>*From:* braintrainer [mailto: >>>braintrainer ]>>>*On Behalf Of *Suzanne Day>>>*Sent:* Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:30 AM>>>*To:* braintrainer >>>*Subject:* Re: Alpha /Beta ratios>>>>>>>>>>>>I have listened and learned a lot... it is my time to try to >>>answer.>>>>>>According to Pete's notes from the workshop,>>>>>>FRONTAL Beta should be higher (10-15%) on the left and Alpha >>>higher (10 to>>>15%) on the right. Alpha/Beta should be 1.1>>>>>>>>>>>>Suzanne>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hi Pete~>>>>>>I know you don't have the Alpha /beta ratios listed on the >>>assessment but>>>I wondered if you know what those ratios should be. I heard >>>someone say>>>2.0 but since its acceptable for theta/beta ratio to be as high as >>>2.0 I>>>wondered if maybe that number was low. Thanks for any light,>>>>>>~>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-->>>No virus found in this incoming message.>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.>>>Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.7 /488 - Release Date:>>>10/19/2006>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-->>> Van Deusen>>>pvdtlc@...>>>http://www.brain-trainer.com>>>305/433-3160>>>The Learning Curve, Inc.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-->>> Van Deusen>>>pvdtlc@...>>>http://www.brain-trainer.com>>>305/433-3160>>>The Learning Curve, Inc.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-->>> Van Deusen>>>pvdtlc@...>>>http://www.brain-trainer.com>>>305/433-3160>>>The Learning Curve, Inc.>>>>>>>>>>>>>-->> Van Deusen>>pvdtlc@...>>http://www.brain-trainer.com>>305/433-3160>>The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.