Guest guest Posted March 24, 2004 Report Share Posted March 24, 2004 Tony and Mike, Yes, there are many obstacles for raw dairy producers/sellers, at least here in Wisconsin. People have few choices where raw dairy is concerned. They can either go under the table to get their raw dairy - or they can purchase the organic "dead" stuff from the store for an outrageous price. Mike - To say that it's foolish to invest the time and money into an elaborate form of processing such as Steve from Organic Choice mentioned is clearly said without a giving thought to the current status of raw milk availability NOW. Many people are fighting to change the raw milk laws, but this is not going to happen overnight. It may never happen in some states. The way I see it - Organic Choice is offering another alternative for those that don't have access to raw dairy and don't want to drink the ultra pasteurized crap in the stores. Will it be as good as raw? No, it won't. Will it compromise the nutritional value of the raw milk? Possibly, but not near as much as the pasteurized variety. Like Tony said, it could possibly be the next best thing compared to what's available in the marketplace now. An alternative that's as close to raw as one can get is far better in my opinion than the other choices available out there. Either way - it would be nice IF the consumer had a choice! Janet Mike,The best way to get past an immovable object is often to goaround it, i.e. take a step sideways. Better than bruisingyourself butting your head against it and getting nowhere.If I understand what I am learning here on the Raw Dairy list,current dairy industry regs are an immovable obstacle for rawdiary producers/sellers, at least in many states. OrganicChoice appears to be trying to go around this. If successful,then they will have offered the general public the Next BestThing, which is typically a good seller in any market. After that the Next Best Thing may just happen to be raw, andwe are back on the desired path again.This is a rehash of some things I've already read here, butfood for thought needs constant replenishment.Regards,Tony>>,>Neither. I think the idea of investing the time and money into an >elaborate form of processing like he suggested is foolish. Those >resources could be devoted towards realizing the solution that is >already extremely well understood, namely producing great milk and >not processing it all. And the idea of filtering out bacteria >and spores misses the whole point of the pro-raw argument. His >suggestion is a step sideways, not forward. Further, I'd be >skeptical that such elaborate processing didn't compromise the >nutritional value of the milk, besides the obvious fact that the >bacteria are part of the nutritional value. >>Mike >SE Pennsylvania Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2004 Report Share Posted March 25, 2004 There are two issues in this thread, 1) will the work to find alternatives to conventional pasteurization and ultra-pasteurization dilute the movement to encourage consumption of raw (pasture feed, fresh unprocessed milk) and to remove the laws and regulations that prevent farmers and consumers from enjoying the health and financial benefits? and 2) are the "alternative" pasteurization techniques substantial improvements over convention processing? I understand the frustrations of the consumers that want availability now. I understand the argument that if unprocessed milk is so good for use, isn't there a moral imperative to make it available to everyone ( only possible with large scale distribution and marketing. I understand the frustration of farmers who see the economics, and reason that they are not going to be truly successful if they are limited to on-farm sale of raw milk ( these farmers are undoubtedly correct in believing that they can process much more, distribute widely, and enjoy the markup in price that is being realized now with the label "raw" and "organic" and "grass fed" with a product that is marketed as "better than conventional" milk ). But I worry about these trends, and I am not sure I fully understand the ramifications, and I am worried about the research that would be needed to compare the nutritional values of: raw milk, conventional pasteurized milk, ultra-pasteurized milk, and some new list of "alternative, healthier pasteurization" Particularly when it is so difficult to document the current health claims, since there is no money to support research on reduction of health benefits that accompanies pasteurization and ultra-pasteurization. I see a dangerous slippery slope. Ted Re: Organic Choice LLC. Tony and Mike, Yes, there are many obstacles for raw dairy producers/sellers, at least here in Wisconsin. People have few choices where raw dairy is concerned. They can either go under the table to get their raw dairy - or they can purchase the organic "dead" stuff from the store for an outrageous price. Mike - To say that it's foolish to invest the time and money into an elaborate form of processing such as Steve from Organic Choice mentioned is clearly said without a giving thought to the current status of raw milk availability NOW. Many people are fighting to change the raw milk laws, but this is not going to happen overnight. It may never happen in some states. The way I see it - Organic Choice is offering another alternative for those that don't have access to raw dairy and don't want to drink the ultra pasteurized crap in the stores. Will it be as good as raw? No, it won't. Will it compromise the nutritional value of the raw milk? Possibly, but not near as much as the pasteurized variety. Like Tony said, it could possibly be the next best thing compared to what's available in the marketplace now. An alternative that's as close to raw as one can get is far better in my opinion than the other choices available out there. Either way - it would be nice IF the consumer had a choice! Janet Mike,The best way to get past an immovable object is often to goaround it, i.e. take a step sideways. Better than bruisingyourself butting your head against it and getting nowhere.If I understand what I am learning here on the Raw Dairy list,current dairy industry regs are an immovable obstacle for rawdiary producers/sellers, at least in many states. OrganicChoice appears to be trying to go around this. If successful,then they will have offered the general public the Next BestThing, which is typically a good seller in any market. After that the Next Best Thing may just happen to be raw, andwe are back on the desired path again.This is a rehash of some things I've already read here, butfood for thought needs constant replenishment.Regards,Tony>>,>Neither. I think the idea of investing the time and money into an >elaborate form of processing like he suggested is foolish. Those >resources could be devoted towards realizing the solution that is >already extremely well understood, namely producing great milk and >not processing it all. And the idea of filtering out bacteria >and spores misses the whole point of the pro-raw argument. His >suggestion is a step sideways, not forward. Further, I'd be >skeptical that such elaborate processing didn't compromise the >nutritional value of the milk, besides the obvious fact that the >bacteria are part of the nutritional value. >>Mike >SE PennsylvaniaPLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Check out these links!Midvalleyvu Farms http://www.midvalleyvu.comThe Weston A. Price Foundation: http://www.westonaprice.orgThe Untold Story of Milk http://www.drrons.com/untoldstoryofmilk.htmlPlease visit our Raw Dairy files for a wealth of information:FILES: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Database: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/databaseRecipes: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/database?method=reportRows & tbl=1Contact List: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/database?method=reportRows & tbl=2Photos: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/lst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2004 Report Share Posted March 25, 2004 > There are two issues in this thread, 1) will the work to find alternatives to conventional pasteurization and ultra-pasteurization dilute the movement to encourage consumption of raw (pasture feed, fresh unprocessed milk) and to remove the laws and regulations that prevent farmers and consumers from enjoying the health and financial benefits? and 2) are the " alternative " pasteurization techniques substantial improvements over convention processing? > I think Ted raises a key point with #1 above. When I see an instance of regulatory dysfunction such as the " ban raw milk, rather than demand clean milk " dysfunction, I always like to look at the incentive structure, i.e. what encourages people to take the positions that lead to the dysfunction. In this case, mandatory pasteurization of milk serves the (financial) interests of some parties at the expense of others. While farmers suffer from low milk prices and consumers suffer from low quality, the consolidated dairy monopolists benefit in several ways: They prohibit real high-quality competition from entering the market and revealing the low quality of their wares; they put farmers into a position where they must sell to a single buyer. Other beneficiaries of mandatory pasteurization include the whole host of " industries " (allopathic medical, pharmecutical, pesticide, fertilizer, food vegetable oil, etc) that thrive on poor health, and that risk having their game exposed by careful thinking about what makes healthy food. Now, in the case of Organic Choice LLC, we have a group of good people who want to find a way to improve the situation. Their plan is to " join 'em " by agreeing to sterilize milk in order to meet the stated goals of the mandatory pasteurization camp, but to sterilize the milk in (what appears to be) a less-destructive way... Suppose, for a moment, that this plan works out for OCLLC. What, then, will their incentives be? They will have a considerable capital investment in their new sterilization infrstructure and in the cost of winning regulatory blessing for this new technique; How will this influence their feelings toward the the free, unfettered sale of truly raw milk? - Jerome, happily enjoying day 25 of raw milk, cream and colostrum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2004 Report Share Posted March 25, 2004 And Ted, if the $Powers-That-Be$ were telling you about their "new process", I would be right there with you. That's what they told us about ultra-pasteurization...... But these are Our Guys! If anybody's going to find a good alternative, it will be them. Don't forget these folks have to be mechanical engineers sometimes with the farm equipment. I've seen some amazing fixes to a bailer to get the hay in on time... If you have talent in the Rube Goldberg sort of way, drop them a line. They're asking for input from whomever. --Terry Re: Organic Choice LLC. Tony and Mike, Yes, there are many obstacles for raw dairy producers/sellers, at least here in Wisconsin. People have few choices where raw dairy is concerned. They can either go under the table to get their raw dairy - or they can purchase the organic "dead" stuff from the store for an outrageous price. Mike - To say that it's foolish to invest the time and money into an elaborate form of processing such as Steve from Organic Choice mentioned is clearly said without a giving thought to the current status of raw milk availability NOW. Many people are fighting to change the raw milk laws, but this is not going to happen overnight. It may never happen in some states. The way I see it - Organic Choice is offering another alternative for those that don't have access to raw dairy and don't want to drink the ultra pasteurized crap in the stores. Will it be as good as raw? No, it won't. Will it compromise the nutritional value of the raw milk? Possibly, but not near as much as the pasteurized variety. Like Tony said, it could possibly be the next best thing compared to what's available in the marketplace now. An alternative that's as close to raw as one can get is far better in my opinion than the other choices available out there. Either way - it would be nice IF the consumer had a choice! Janet Mike,The best way to get past an immovable object is often to goaround it, i.e. take a step sideways. Better than bruisingyourself butting your head against it and getting nowhere.If I understand what I am learning here on the Raw Dairy list,current dairy industry regs are an immovable obstacle for rawdiary producers/sellers, at least in many states. OrganicChoice appears to be trying to go around this. If successful,then they will have offered the general public the Next BestThing, which is typically a good seller in any market. After that the Next Best Thing may just happen to be raw, andwe are back on the desired path again.This is a rehash of some things I've already read here, butfood for thought needs constant replenishment.Regards,Tony>>,>Neither. I think the idea of investing the time and money into an >elaborate form of processing like he suggested is foolish. Those >resources could be devoted towards realizing the solution that is >already extremely well understood, namely producing great milk and >not processing it all. And the idea of filtering out bacteria >and spores misses the whole point of the pro-raw argument. His >suggestion is a step sideways, not forward. Further, I'd be >skeptical that such elaborate processing didn't compromise the >nutritional value of the milk, besides the obvious fact that the >bacteria are part of the nutritional value. >>Mike >SE PennsylvaniaPLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Check out these links!Midvalleyvu Farms http://www.midvalleyvu.comThe Weston A. Price Foundation: http://www.westonaprice.orgThe Untold Story of Milk http://www.drrons.com/untoldstoryofmilk.htmlPlease visit our Raw Dairy files for a wealth of information:FILES: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Database: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/databaseRecipes: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/database?method=reportRows & tbl=1Contact List: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/database?method=reportRows & tbl=2Photos: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/lst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2004 Report Share Posted March 26, 2004 Ted-- Thanks for your very thoughtful reply. I see you are in the thick of things, wherever you are living at present. Some states like PA, and even ME, likely have a true legislative opportunity to get Raw Milk back into their grocery stores, and no one is diluting that fact. I say "Go For It" and Godspeed. We're gonna need your regulatory plan later when we go for the Gold. Other places like Ohio (and Arizona) where the political climate is SO rotten.... we have to accept the facts that the last 100 yrs of Fixed Elections do not bode well for ANY cause, no matter how worthy. They call Agriculture its largest industry, but treat it very badly. There would be likely 25 different agencies who would have to ammend their regulations before Raw Milk would be allowed in the local stores in Ohio from its own farmers. If we tried to import Mark McAfee's milk, we could probably do it much faster. Our Guys are the ONLY people qualified to represent our interests in this thing. And knowing the calibre of the people involved, I would trust them with my life. They don't have to put themselves out this way. They could just sell their property like so many do for another sub-division of houses, and just say to heck with it. A lot of these guys are looking at retirement and have "done their shift", so to speak, and are looking to pass on a viable(?) business to their heirs. And I understand your concern about "selling out", because mostly that is what happens in these things. All small businesses seem to be going in that direction these days. There are no "large food suppliers" in this plan to my knowledge. I doubt their investment capital could take them that far. I believe they want to keep it in-house and regional, delivering to the few local grocery chains we have left, and the fewer independent healthfood stores, just in more than one state. They want to know their future is in their own hands, something it would never be if they did what you suggest. The $Powers-That-Be$ have never been small farmers, I can assure you. The Multinationals are not run by these sorts. The Italian family of Permalat fame, that was all over in the news this past winter, has always been "landed gentry" too. I venture to say, there are some who do not know what a cow barn smells like, and don't want to know. The exact Alternate Pasteurization process is as yet undetermined, so your chance to scrutinize their solution is coming up. I'm sure we'll hear about it when the time is right. The smaller 100% Grassfed farms have no real benefit to co-op with those who also use some grains. Their 100% Organic Grassfed label is worth more as it is. We would want to protect their interests with these ideas as well. Currently we here have such a group, but their commercial efforts can only legally be toward cheesemaking. They gracoiusly "sell" us their Milk by calling it a "donation to the farm fund" or a "love offering". This does hold up in our state, but in others I do not know. Every place is surprisingly different in this regard. Let's send out Good Vibes that all goes the way of the Highest Good in their efforts. --Terry Re: Organic Choice LLC. Tony and Mike, Yes, there are many obstacles for raw dairy producers/sellers, at least here in Wisconsin. People have few choices where raw dairy is concerned. They can either go under the table to get their raw dairy - or they can purchase the organic "dead" stuff from the store for an outrageous price. PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Check out these links!Midvalleyvu Farms http://www.midvalleyvu.comThe Weston A. Price Foundation: http://www.westonaprice.orgThe Untold Story of Milk http://www.drrons.com/untoldstoryofmilk.htmlPlease visit our Raw Dairy files for a wealth of information:FILES: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Database: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/databaseRecipes: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/database?method=reportRows & tbl=1Contact List: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/database?method=reportRows & tbl=2Photos: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/lst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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