RE: what to offer concerned parents

[Guest guest]

Dear ,May I please offer some thoughts as well?I would probably refrain from speaking about the daughter's charting information unless she is still their dependant. However, your conversations with the mother and father may be a conversion opportunity. The mother may be hostile because she has regrets of her own.Possible points to share(pray first for the guidance of the Holy Spirit):1)The method her mother used many years ago does not resemble what is available today. In Creighton, we know how to identify the "double peak" situation and other irregularities. 2) Address her statement, "young people can't possible have that much self control." Planned Parenthood is in business because parents believe this lie. I am a chastity educator for Family Honor, Inc and I know that it is possible for the young people to remain chaste until marriage. We must believe in our young people, educate them so they can be noble and good. We need to model good behavior, instead of throwing birth control pills at them. They are not animals. They are human beings offered abundant graces from God to do what is right. 3) These parents need a dose of Theology of the Body and I encourage them to pray for their child and trust in God's love. Even though the grandmother's 5 pregnancies were not planned, without one of them, the mother would not be alive worrying about her daughter's fertility.4) The decision to have children is between God and the married couple, not in-laws, people at the grocery store or employers. I think the parents in this situation, may be overstepping in this area too.We will all pray for you and the wisdom to approach these parents. Be as loving as possible and try to understand the underlining cause of their anger and distrust.Kathy SchmuggeFamily Life CoordinatorDiocese of ton what to offer concerned parents

Greeting, Dr. Fehring,

My name is Harper Palmer and I am an FCP in ville, FL. I have a question for you concerning NFP research.

I have a received a rather hostile inquiry from the parents of a new client. She is 19 and soon to be married. The couple is learning to chart as part of their marriage prep and have stated their intention to avoid pregnancy until after college graduation. Her parents have called me demanding that I "guarantee" their daughter will not become pregnant. They have scoffed at the studies I have offered them (the recent European double check study and the 1998 CrM study), insisting that they have no real world applicability and that "young people can't possible have that much self control." The mother of my client says that NFP can't work for her daughter because her mother (the client's grandmother) used NFP and ovulated twice 5 times which is how she got her five children.

I am torn about what other information I should offer to these folks. On the one hand, I would like to present credible information that could change their minds. On the other, I feel that continuing to even correspond with them encroaches on client confidentiality.

You guidance would be most appreciated. Sincerely,

Harper Palmer, FCP-- Wood Row Birth and Baby Supply*diapers, slings, and natural family planning*ville, FL

[Guest guest]

One

thing about the Grandmother part: Was the grandmother using an “old”

version of NFP (such as rhythm method)? Also, we know there is no such thing

as “ovulating twice” (other than within about 24 hours of each

other) so this woman is obviously mis-informed about some very basic things.

what

to offer concerned parents

Greeting, Dr. Fehring,

My name is Harper Palmer and I am an FCP in

ville, FL. I have a question for you concerning NFP research.

I have a received a rather hostile inquiry from the

parents of a new client. She is 19 and soon to be married. The

couple is learning to chart as part of their marriage prep and have stated

their intention to avoid pregnancy until after college graduation. Her parents

have called me demanding that I " guarantee " their daughter will not

become pregnant. They have scoffed at the studies I have offered them (the

recent European double check study and the 1998 CrM study), insisting that they

have no real world applicability and that " young people can't possible

have that much self control. " The mother of my client says that NFP can't

work for her daughter because her mother (the client's grandmother) used NFP

and ovulated twice 5 times which is how she got her five children.

I am torn about what other information I should offer

to these folks. On the one hand, I would like to present credible information

that could change their minds. On the other, I feel that continuing to

even correspond with them encroaches on client confidentiality.

You guidance would be most appreciated.

Sincerely,

Harper Palmer, FCP

--

Wood Row Birth and Baby Supply

*diapers, slings, and natural family planning*

ville, FL

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

In crisis pregnancy/ pregnancy resource centers, we often talk to minor young women without their mothers in the room. The story is often different in their absence. Unless the client because of her age, mental ability or cognitive level is so young that she really hasn't a clue about her situation, we deal with her first, assuming her competence. Not that we refuse to talk to the mother, but at that point, it would be in the most general information sense and focussed on her role in the situation.

If your mother had initiated the request for your NFP services, you would answer her questions at that point, but once the daughter is your client, any information about her situation, motivation, charting results, etc., should only come to the mother from her daughter unless the daughter requests her mother's presence in your conferences. If this gal is old enough to be getting married, her mother should be letting go of the situation, even if she is paying for the daughter's education. It is, as they say, a calculated risk, getting married before you graduate from college and hoping not to get pregnant. Is that goal the daughter's wishes or the mother's? With your knowledge of the mother's feelings, you can tailor your remarks and teaching of her daughter to include dealing with skeptical family members, etc., and even discussing her need to stand on her own as a young adult and make decisions that work for her and her spouse. This may be encouragement she's never had at home.

I have no objection to talking with her mother if you think it will help the situation, but don't get baited into family issue. Anyone "demanding" information should be dealt with cautiously in light of confidentiality in health care. Do you have any persuasive written materials to give them?

God Bless,

Rosko

Nurse Manager, Her Choice Birmingham Women's Center

Abortion Alternatives

Birmingham, AL

"Too often have sins against humanity been justified in the name of 'justice' to women. Too often have we heard women claim to be working for 'women's rights' when they are actually working for 'women's wrongs.'" Helen Hull Hitchcock

Reply-To: nfpprofessionals To: nfpprofessionals Subject: what to offer concerned parentsDate: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 00:56:51 -0400

Greeting, Dr. Fehring,

My name is Harper Palmer and I am an FCP in ville, FL. I have a question for you concerning NFP research.

I have a received a rather hostile inquiry from the parents of a new client. She is 19 and soon to be married. The couple is learning to chart as part of their marriage prep and have stated their intention to avoid pregnancy until after college graduation. Her parents have called me demanding that I "guarantee" their daughter will not become pregnant. They have scoffed at the studies I have offered them (the recent European double check study and the 1998 CrM study), insisting that they have no real world applicability and that "young people can't possible have that much self control." The mother of my client says that NFP can't work for her daughter because her mother (the client's grandmother) used NFP and ovulated twice 5 times which is how she got her five children.

I am torn about what other information I should offer to these folks. On the one hand, I would like to present credible information that could change their minds. On the other, I feel that continuing to even correspond with them encroaches on client confidentiality.

You guidance would be most appreciated. Sincerely,

Harper Palmer, FCP-- Wood Row Birth and Baby Supply*diapers, slings, and natural family planning*ville, FL

[Guest guest]

Well, this is what sending emails in the middle of the night after attending two births will get you. LOL.

Thanks, everyone, for your responses, on and off list.

To address a few points that were brought up:

Certainly, I would not discuss the client's charting information with her mother. That is strictly between my client and I. Coming from a crisis pregnancy center background, I have a clear understanding of where that line is, and no problem establishing it and maintaining client confidentiality even with the most inquisitive of parents. Further, the mother has asked that I not even tell her daughter that she has contacted me. I haven't, but it makes me feel as if I am participating in a deception. Truly, from the beginning of these conversations (mid-January), I have avoiding talking about her daughter and have focused my comments only on my teaching, the Creighton Model, and NFP in general.

As far as her lack of understanding regarding the workings of NFP, I have tried to explain double Peaking to the mother, yet she still insists that her mother ovulated twice. According her, the method being used was calendar + BBT. I forget what the right name for this is. I explained that Creighton is different, but she insists that it is not. I directed her to the Creighton and NaPro websites. She replied that they are " marketing " websites and don't offer " the whole story. "

As you can tell, while I have been as patient and loving as I know how to be, these parents continue to be antagonistic. makes an interesting point with regard to _Theology of the Body_. I will pray about how I can address that larger issue. I know that this woman's anger is coming from her own regret, and concern for her daughter. She has stated to me that " her daughter is too young to be married " and that her fiance is not Catholic, though he is enrolled in RCIA. I have not yet figured out how to lovingly imply that she needs to back off. ;-)

I have talked with my client (whose first official follow-up is tonight) about how I have seen people be skeptical of young couple using the method and have (and will continue) emphasized the self-control that is necessary to use NFP successfully and how it is really the same self control necessary to live successfully. We've touched on and will talk more about affirming vs. arousing touch. I will use the Creighton tools (SPICE index, etc.) to elaborate on this concept. My client has openly revealed to me that her mother thinks she is in control of her life and is trying to " tell her how to live. " She (my client) wants to finish college but has said she would be happy " with a baby tomorrow if that is what God has in store " for her.

I had directed my inquiry to Dr. Fehring originally because I had decided to discontinue any discussion with the parents, but to provide with a few more articles, if I came across ones that were especially appropriate. Now I will prayerfully consider how to broach the topic of TOTB in general. In the meantime, I don't have the time or energy to continue to debate this.

Thanks so much to everyone for their thoughts. They have confirmed the answers I had already received and given me food for thought. I welcome any others and feel so blessed to have this great group of fellow professionals for support.

Peace,

Harper Palmer, FCP

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

Another bit of information that usually is entirely left out is that

there is NO method of family planning that is 100% effective. There

is also just as much possibility of becoming pregnant no matter what

method you use, as long as you are having intercourse. If this

mother believes that her daughter is that irresponsible, what makes

her think that she will be any more responsible in using another form

of family planning? I myself have dealt with this type of hostility,

which is generally a result of personal issues that the hostile

person is not dealing with themselves. I will offer general

information about natural family planning methods, and politely but

firmly explain that due to client confidentiality I cannot discuss

anything specifically related to the clients own situation, and that

the client is the one making the choice to use this method and any

questions about that aspect should be discussed with the client.

That pretty well stops the questions, because the person questioning

is usually not really interested in the answers, just in being

confrontational because of their own personal issues.

Pam, RN, FCP

El Paso, TX

>

> Well, this is what sending emails in the middle of the night after

attending

> two births will get you. LOL.

>

> Thanks, everyone, for your responses, on and off list.

>

> To address a few points that were brought up:

>

> Certainly, I would not discuss the client's charting information

with her

> mother. That is strictly between my client and I. Coming from a

crisis

> pregnancy center background, I have a clear understanding of where

that line

> is, and no problem establishing it and maintaining client

confidentiality

> even with the most inquisitive of parents. Further, the mother has

asked

> that I not even tell her daughter that she has contacted me. I

haven't, but

> it makes me feel as if I am participating in a deception. Truly,

from the

> beginning of these conversations (mid-January), I have avoiding

talking

> about her daughter and have focused my comments only on my

teaching, the

> Creighton Model, and NFP in general.

>

> As far as her lack of understanding regarding the workings of NFP,

I have

> tried to explain double Peaking to the mother, yet she still

insists that

> her mother ovulated twice. According her, the method being used was

calendar

> + BBT. I forget what the right name for this is. I explained that

Creighton

> is different, but she insists that it is not. I directed her to the

> Creighton and NaPro websites. She replied that they are " marketing "

websites

> and don't offer " the whole story. "

>

> As you can tell, while I have been as patient and loving as I know

how to

> be, these parents continue to be antagonistic. makes an

interesting

> point with regard to _Theology of the Body_. I will pray about how

I can

> address that larger issue. I know that this woman's anger is coming

from her

> own regret, and concern for her daughter. She has stated to me

that " her

> daughter is too young to be married " and that her fiance is not

Catholic,

> though he is enrolled in RCIA. I have not yet figured out how to

lovingly

> imply that she needs to back off. ;-)

>

> I have talked with my client (whose first official follow-up is

tonight)

> about how I have seen people be skeptical of young couple using the

method

> and have (and will continue) emphasized the self-control that is

necessary

> to use NFP successfully and how it is really the same self control

necessary

> to live successfully. We've touched on and will talk more about

affirming

> vs. arousing touch. I will use the Creighton tools (SPICE index,

etc.) to

> elaborate on this concept. My client has openly revealed to me that

her

> mother thinks she is in control of her life and is trying to " tell

her how

> to live. " She (my client) wants to finish college but has said she

would be

> happy " with a baby tomorrow if that is what God has in store " for

her.

>

> I had directed my inquiry to Dr. Fehring originally because I had

decided to

> discontinue any discussion with the parents, but to provide with a

few more

> articles, if I came across ones that were especially appropriate.

Now I will

> prayerfully consider how to broach the topic of TOTB in general. In

the

> meantime, I don't have the time or energy to continue to debate

this.

>

> Thanks so much to everyone for their thoughts. They have confirmed

the

> answers I had already received and given me food for thought. I

welcome any

> others and feel so blessed to have this great group of fellow

professionals

> for support.

>

> Peace,

> Harper Palmer, FCP

>

[Guest guest]

I think it would be best to not discuss this with the client's mother or father. There is nothing you can say that can convince her, and it really isn't her business what her grown daughter is choosing to do. You should be polite, but firm, in refusing to speak further on the matter.

Becky

Well, this is what sending emails in the middle of the night after attending two births will get you. LOL.

Thanks, everyone, for your responses, on and off list.

To address a few points that were brought up:

Certainly, I would not discuss the client's charting information with her mother. That is strictly between my client and I. Coming from a crisis pregnancy center background, I have a clear understanding of where that line is, and no problem establishing it and maintaining client confidentiality even with the most inquisitive of parents. Further, the mother has asked that I not even tell her daughter that she has contacted me. I haven't, but it makes me feel as if I am participating in a deception. Truly, from the beginning of these conversations (mid-January), I have avoiding talking about her daughter and have focused my comments only on my teaching, the Creighton Model, and NFP in general.

As far as her lack of understanding regarding the workings of NFP, I have tried to explain double Peaking to the mother, yet she still insists that her mother ovulated twice. According her, the method being used was calendar + BBT. I forget what the right name for this is. I explained that Creighton is different, but she insists that it is not. I directed her to the Creighton and NaPro websites. She replied that they are " marketing " websites and don't offer " the whole story. "

As you can tell, while I have been as patient and loving as I know how to be, these parents continue to be antagonistic. makes an interesting point with regard to _Theology of the Body_. I will pray about how I can address that larger issue. I know that this woman's anger is coming from her own regret, and concern for her daughter. She has stated to me that " her daughter is too young to be married " and that her fiance is not Catholic, though he is enrolled in RCIA. I have not yet figured out how to lovingly imply that she needs to back off. ;-)

I have talked with my client (whose first official follow-up is tonight) about how I have seen people be skeptical of young couple using the method and have (and will continue) emphasized the self-control that is necessary to use NFP successfully and how it is really the same self control necessary to live successfully. We've touched on and will talk more about affirming vs. arousing touch. I will use the Creighton tools (SPICE index, etc.) to elaborate on this concept. My client has openly revealed to me that her mother thinks she is in control of her life and is trying to " tell her how to live. " She (my client) wants to finish college but has said she would be happy " with a baby tomorrow if that is what God has in store " for her.

I had directed my inquiry to Dr. Fehring originally because I had decided to discontinue any discussion with the parents, but to provide with a few more articles, if I came across ones that were especially appropriate. Now I will prayerfully consider how to broach the topic of TOTB in general. In the meantime, I don't have the time or energy to continue to debate this.

Thanks so much to everyone for their thoughts. They have confirmed the answers I had already received and given me food for thought. I welcome any others and feel so blessed to have this great group of fellow professionals for support.

Peace,

Harper Palmer, FCP

[Guest guest]

:

I am not sure I can add much to the wisdom that already has been

provided by members of this NFP list. But (since you asked) I will

provide you with my perspective and maybe some research that you can use.

However, I am not sure that you can change the parents minds –or even that

you should. My overall advice would be to respond with charity --- even

if that means waiting several days and praying about the response before

writing another e-mail. Your charity and kindness (and not trying to

change their minds) might help more than what you say or put in an e-mail response.

(Sorry if I sound paternalistic). Some thoughts (that reinforce a lot of

what you already know):

1.

I would reinforce or inform them that you understand that they

are concerned about their young engaged daughter --- and that you too are

concerned and want the best for her and her marriage,

2.

I would gently remind them that if she is on hormonal

contraception (i.e., the Pill) – that the typical or average unintended

pregnancy rate is 8 in 100 over 12 months of use and that there are many side

effects from hormonal contraception ---- there are no side effects with

NFP; if they use barriers --- they are not more effective than NFP (Trussell,

2004)

3.

When used correctly – NFP can be very effective –

only 1-2 unintended pregnancies per 100 over 12 months;

4.

That most of the unintended pregnancies occur when couple users

know they are in the fertile phase,

5.

If they are not cohabitating and being sexually chaste while

engaged --- the more likely that they will be able to translate those behaviors

into married life (however, they also might translate their love and

appreciation for their fertility in wanting to have a baby!)

6.

Scientific research has demonstrated that essentially there is only

a 6 day fertile phase – the day of ovulation and the 5 days before

(Wilcox et al, 1995 NEJM – and other subsequent studies on the fertile

phase).

7.

There is no evidence of double ovulation that I am aware of ---

yes the Canadian study (Baer et al) did demonstrate that there is considerable

follicular development (waves of follicular development over several menstrual

cycles) and that some follicles mature post ovulation ----- but there was no

evidence that any of the other follicles ovulated post ovulation --- there

needs to be an LH surge for that to happen.

8.

Gently but firmly remind them that your responsibility is with

your couple/client --- and not with them. As you know, you cannot share

any information about your couple/client with them (I am not even sure why they

are confronting you with their concerns --- essentially it is NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS

what method of family planning their daughter is using and when to have a baby –

that is between her and her husband and her God) (Humanae Vitae). You can

talk with them about NFP and its challenges and benefits – but not as it

specifically applies to your couple/client.

As an aside – I wonder:

1. Which

of her (the mother’s) 5 (brothers or sisters) would she prefer not to

have? Due to the failed NFP and double ovulation experienced by her

mother (i.e., the daughter’s grandmother).

2. Why

are they so concerned about their daughter using NFP? And a potential

pregnancy? You would think that they would be thrilled to be

grandparents.

And I wonder (tongue in cheek) why you are corresponding with

e-mail in the middle of the night – I recommend a good night’s

sleep instead.

I wish you well with your NFP couple/client --- and a sense of

peace with their parents.

PS – I would be glad to share with you a PDF of any of the

research mentioned above. Or other studies that you may need.

From:

nfpprofessionals [mailto:nfpprofessionals ] On

Behalf Of Palmer

Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 11:57 PM

To: nfpprofessionals

Subject: what to offer concerned parents

Greeting, Dr. Fehring,

My name is Harper Palmer and I am an FCP in

ville, FL. I have a question for you concerning NFP research.

I have a received a rather hostile inquiry from the parents

of a new client. She is 19 and soon to be married. The couple is

learning to chart as part of their marriage prep and have stated their

intention to avoid pregnancy until after college graduation. Her parents have

called me demanding that I " guarantee " their daughter will not become

pregnant. They have scoffed at the studies I have offered them (the recent European

double check study and the 1998 CrM study), insisting that they have no real

world applicability and that " young people can't possible have that much

self control. " The mother of my client says that NFP can't work for her

daughter because her mother (the client's grandmother) used NFP and ovulated

twice 5 times which is how she got her five children.

I am torn about what other information I should offer to

these folks. On the one hand, I would like to present credible information that

could change their minds. On the other, I feel that continuing to even

correspond with them encroaches on client confidentiality.

You guidance would be most appreciated.

Sincerely,

Harper Palmer, FCP

--

Wood Row Birth and Baby Supply

*diapers, slings, and natural family planning*

ville, FL

[Guest guest]

You may, however, offer to sit down and discuss the various aspects of NFP she has concerns about...only your discussion should not include anything specific to her daughter (by name).

Like yourself, I've heard many talk about "doctors performing life-saving sterilizations" and other such non-sense. Often, these people are not reasonable due to pre-conceived notions or an unexpected outcome for themselves or a loved one. When the default position for society is that of contraception/sterilization it's difficult for the average Catholic to see the wisdom in the Church's teaching. Still, they ALL deserve answers to their questions.

Mike Artigues

Re: what to offer concerned parents

I think it would be best to not discuss this with the client's mother or father. There is nothing you can say that can convince her, and it really isn't her business what her grown daughter is choosing to do. You should be polite, but firm, in refusing to speak further on the matter. Becky

On 3/28/07, Palmer <mucus.mamagmail> wrote:

Well, this is what sending emails in the middle of the night after attending two births will get you. LOL.

Thanks, everyone, for your responses, on and off list.

To address a few points that were brought up:

Certainly, I would not discuss the client's charting information with her mother. That is strictly between my client and I. Coming from a crisis pregnancy center background, I have a clear understanding of where that line is, and no problem establishing it and maintaining client confidentiality even with the most inquisitive of parents. Further, the mother has asked that I not even tell her daughter that she has contacted me. I haven't, but it makes me feel as if I am participating in a deception. Truly, from the beginning of these conversations (mid-January), I have avoiding talking about her daughter and have focused my comments only on my teaching, the Creighton Model, and NFP in general.

As far as her lack of understanding regarding the workings of NFP, I have tried to explain double Peaking to the mother, yet she still insists that her mother ovulated twice. According her, the method being used was calendar + BBT. I forget what the right name for this is. I explained that Creighton is different, but she insists that it is not. I directed her to the Creighton and NaPro websites. She replied that they are "marketing" websites and don't offer "the whole story."

As you can tell, while I have been as patient and loving as I know how to be, these parents continue to be antagonistic. makes an interesting point with regard to _Theology of the Body_. I will pray about how I can address that larger issue. I know that this woman's anger is coming from her own regret, and concern for her daughter. She has stated to me that "her daughter is too young to be married" and that her fiance is not Catholic, though he is enrolled in RCIA. I have not yet figured out how to lovingly imply that she needs to back off. ;-)

I have talked with my client (whose first official follow-up is tonight) about how I have seen people be skeptical of young couple using the method and have (and will continue) emphasized the self-control that is necessary to use NFP successfully and how it is really the same self control necessary to live successfully. We've touched on and will talk more about affirming vs. arousing touch. I will use the Creighton tools (SPICE index, etc.) to elaborate on this concept. My client has openly revealed to me that her mother thinks she is in control of her life and is trying to "tell her how to live." She (my client) wants to finish college but has said she would be happy "with a baby tomorrow if that is what God has in store" for her.

I had directed my inquiry to Dr. Fehring originally because I had decided to discontinue any discussion with the parents, but to provide with a few more articles, if I came across ones that were especially appropriate. Now I will prayerfully consider how to broach the topic of TOTB in general. In the meantime, I don't have the time or energy to continue to debate this.

Thanks so much to everyone for their thoughts. They have confirmed the answers I had already received and given me food for thought. I welcome any others and feel so blessed to have this great group of fellow professionals for support.

Peace,

Harper Palmer, FCP