Re: Mold Related Illness

[Guest guest]

Will,

Regarding real experience with truly sick clients: After (Hurricane/TS) Irene came through, I picked up several new clients who could no longer live in their homes due to new, or an increase in, indoor MVOCs resulting from water intrusion that occurred during the storm. They knew it was the "mold smell" that was making them sick (nausea, headaches, ear aches, breathing problems, sleeping problems, etc.). They did not think they were poisoned by toxic mold. They knew they had developed neurologic reactions to the mold smell. In each case, their doctors were not able to tell these people what was wrong with them.

I don't know what other health professionals are seeing, but after more than 20 years of investigating building-related health effects, I am still seeing immunologically acquired chemical hypersensitivities as the real cause of "mold illness" and of "new house illness".

The chronic disease IS the acquired neurologic chemical hypersensitivity. It is life-altering and lifelong and affects the autonomic nervous system and endocrine system, among other organ systems, to one degree or another in different individuals. Doctors don't even know what to look for when the sensitized people start describing their symptoms. That's why they can't find anything wrong with them. And that's why there is no "medical link" to mold, toxic or not.

Everyone knows that some people who are chronically exposed to mold don't get sick. Some people do get sick from mold, even when they aren't exposed to "high levels". Instead of looking for the kind of mold that makes people sick (i.e., toxic mold) vs. the kind that doesn't, we should be looking at what happened to the people who did get sick when they were chronically exposed in the water-damaged building. I think that you will find that they became sensitized.

Steve Temes

Mold Related Illness

We had our annual mold/IEQ presentation at our builder's conference last week. I have known the presenter for 7 years and he always does a very good job updating us on the latest in research, IEQ inspections, remediation protocols and his field observations.

Every year someone asks the same question - How many truly sick individuals does he encounter each year from a mold related illness.

The answer is about the same each year - Acute reactions are fairly common, however, chronic disease or incapacitated/hospitalized cases as a result of exposure are very rare with an emphasis on "very". Typically the chronic cases have an underlying cause that is exasperated by exposure to poor IEQ conditions.

We still hear so much about toxic mold exposure. According to our presenter, the most vocal preachers of toxic mold typically have a financial interest in promoting the concept.

So questions for the group:

1. What is your experience with truly sick clients?

2. With so many homes, schools and businesses reportedly having poor IEQ, why are we not seeing more chronic disease "medically linked" to mold, biotoxins and mVOC exposure?

Thanks,

Will

[Guest guest]

So questions for the group:1. What is your experience with truly sick clients?

This is completely anecdotally speaking and is my experience.

That "most" who are chronically ill have been exposed to long term, low dose exposures. And that "most" were NOT immunocompromised prior to exposure - but something about "most" of their immune system made them more susceptible than the general population. (recent injury, recent surgery, genetic make up, age, etc)

"Most" is a hard number to quantify because "most" people are never exposed to an atypical long term exposure or high dose sudden blast; and "most" who are being diagnosed with autoimmune diseases, etc. never make the connection that poor IAQ is the proximate cause and many times it isn't. There are other causes, too.

My experience is that if you are dealing with a structure that is known to have an atypical water loss problem and an occupant claiming a wide range of inflammatory symptoms - it is wise for this person to be informed that IAQ may be the problem, because "most" who have symptoms recover fully or almost fully if the exposure is caught and corrected early.

Also, "most" who are very sick from a sudden blast situation such as a botched remediation will be extremely hypersensitive for awhile, but the sensitivity subsides after a few years - with proper early detection and treatment. Let it go, and it turns into cancer.

2. With so many homes, schools and businesses reportedly having poor IEQ, why are we not seeing more chronic disease "medically linked" to mold, biotoxins and mVOC exposure?

Because it goes undiagnosed as related and thus under reported for the most part. With that said, I have absolutely no clue of how many people are walking around "very sick" from exposure to mold, biotoxins and MVOC's. If I had to guess, in the US: Mold, I would think would be in the mid-hundreds of thousands in varying degrees of illness and symptoms. Biotoxins and MVOCs from poor IAQ, I would think would be in the high tens of thousands in varying degrees of illness and symptoms.

From a societal risk management stand point, Its not the number of ill that is the most important factor. Its that those who are very ill need help or they lose their health, home, jobs, families, etc. and become unnecessarily extremely expensive for society as a whole, long term. If there are children involved, this can be devastating to them for life - even if they get physically better.

Sharon

[Guest guest]

Steve:

Thanks for your response.

From my discussions with a lot of IEQ practitioners (guys working in the field

and not full of " anecdotal experience " or full of get rich schemes) the

incidence of actual, medical diagnosed mold exposure illness is very rare. Now

the argument can be made that the illness is not properly diagnosed, but that

would suppose that " lay experts " know more than the medical experts. That seems

a bit of a stretch.

I hear of MCS and Morgellons cases, but the medical links seem highly

questionable. If post Katrina was any lesson, it can be difficult to isolate

mental illness from medical illness. Right or wrong, a lot of NOLA medical

doctors simply recommended a shrink to many of their patients. (I wish a few of

my clients had heeded their advice.)

I saw a lot of PTSD in NOLA. I also saw a lot of folks who needlessly exposed

themselves to a wide range of chemical and biologic toxins that suffered no

short or long term effects (surprisingly). But I did not see any cases of

medical diagnoses attributed to toxic mold exposure. To this day, I have not

seen much evidence to suggest otherwise.

At the end of the day, seems that those who are still pushing toxic mold

exposure are losing credibility while mental illness is increasingly attributed

to many undiagnosable cases.

But I remain open minded and I am still interested in hearing actual, first-hand

experience of chronic mold illness in otherwise healthy individuals. And please,

" anecdotal experts " need not reply.

Thanks,

Will

>

>

> Will,

>

> Regarding real experience with truly sick clients: After (Hurricane/TS) Irene

came through, I picked up several new clients who could no longer live in their

homes due to new, or an increase in, indoor MVOCs resulting from water intrusion

that occurred during the storm. They knew it was the " mold smell " that was

making them sick (nausea, headaches, ear aches, breathing problems, sleeping

problems, etc.). They did not think they were poisoned by toxic mold. They

knew they had developed neurologic reactions to the mold smell. In each case,

their doctors were not able to tell these people what was wrong with them.

>

> I don't know what other health professionals are seeing, but after more than

20 years of investigating building-related health effects, I am still seeing

immunologically acquired chemical hypersensitivities as the real cause of " mold

illness " and of " new house illness " .

>

> The chronic disease IS the acquired neurologic chemical hypersensitivity. It

is life-altering and lifelong and affects the autonomic nervous system and

endocrine system, among other organ systems, to one degree or another in

different individuals. Doctors don't even know what to look for when the

sensitized people start describing their symptoms. That's why they can't find

anything wrong with them. And that's why there is no " medical link " to mold,

toxic or not.

>

> Everyone knows that some people who are chronically exposed to mold don't get

sick. Some people do get sick from mold, even when they aren't exposed to " high

levels " . Instead of looking for the kind of mold that makes people sick (i.e.,

toxic mold) vs. the kind that doesn't, we should be looking at what happened to

the people who did get sick when they were chronically exposed in the

water-damaged building. I think that you will find that they became sensitized.

>

>

> Steve Temes

>

>

>

> Mold Related Illness

>

>

>

>

>

> We had our annual mold/IEQ presentation at our builder's conference last week.

I have known the presenter for 7 years and he always does a very good job

updating us on the latest in research, IEQ inspections, remediation protocols

and his field observations.

>

> Every year someone asks the same question - How many truly sick individuals

does he encounter each year from a mold related illness.

>

> The answer is about the same each year - Acute reactions are fairly common,

however, chronic disease or incapacitated/hospitalized cases as a result of

exposure are very rare with an emphasis on " very " . Typically the chronic cases

have an underlying cause that is exasperated by exposure to poor IEQ conditions.

>

> We still hear so much about toxic mold exposure. According to our presenter,

the most vocal preachers of toxic mold typically have a financial interest in

promoting the concept.

>

> So questions for the group:

>

> 1. What is your experience with truly sick clients?

>

> 2. With so many homes, schools and businesses reportedly having poor IEQ, why

are we not seeing more chronic disease " medically linked " to mold, biotoxins and

mVOC exposure?

>

> Thanks,

>

> Will

>

[Guest guest]

I've seen so many old buildings with people living in them and with no apparent consequence I find it hard to believe it's normal for just the mold alone to make you sick. I am skeptical of the mycotoxin connection. Many pseudosciences take a kernel of truth and exaggerate it to the point of absurdity.  Weather this is the case or not with mycotoxins I can't say but I won't believe it until it's widely accepted by the medical community. 

 Even before I was exposed to pesticides occupationally I had lot's of exposures to all other kinds of chemicals. Paints, fumes from welding and cutting up cars with torches, solvent's on my hands, 5 years on and off in the boat building industry. I was most certainty exposed to mold also. I lived in this house for 14 years with no apparent problems:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x74/antares41_41/floor.jpgThat all changed in 1997The above picture is plywood my tile floor sat on top of.  The rest of the house had serious problems also. The floor joists underneath the sink in the kitchen had green mold on them. The insides of the wall underneath the AC drip pan was full of black fuzz from times over the years the pan overflowed. The wiring was covered with black mold. The undersides of the wood flooring's I striped up were covered with black mold not to the same extent as the picture above but the house had signs of mold all throughout.

I believe a lot of people who are not ill claim illness for a multitude of different reasons which undermines those who truly suffer.  This probably jades a lot of people in positions to help that might otherwise be more sympathetic.

Personally based on my experience and my observations I think you need more than mold to push you over the edge, I don't know I was certainty exposed to it for a long period of time before it got to me. But again I'll believe it when it's widely accepted by the medical community.

A good part of the reason I am against the law suits is because A it can't be proven and I think if your going to ruin peoples life's with litigation you need to be able to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. And B it undermines the real issue which is that this is a public health issue that public health officials are in denial about.

We need the type of consorted effort and research that we saw when we concurred polio in the mid 20th century, or the type of research that led to the discovery of HIV. It amazes me the billions of dollars we spend on all different types of research not just in medicine. We have gotten really good at it yet no serious studies are being done to confirm the connection between mold and disease let alone diagnose or treat it. This isn't just negligent it's criminal. It really is appalling because with this research their are lots of things that can be done to mitigate the suffering and possibly prevent it in the first place.

If the research shows it's just a simple matter removing mold from our  homes and businesses I will support law suites. At least the playing field would be level and property owners will know exactly what needs to be done to protect themselves and the people that live and work in their properties.

I still suffer horribly to this day, I am not able to work and my quality of life on a scale of 1 to 10 probably is about 3 regardless of the fact I have taken what I believe to be pretty extreme measures to protect myself from mold. I had a building specially made for this:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x74/antares41_41/house1_2.jpg Even after this I still suffered horribly and I think it's because I ignored or didn't recognize just how sensitized I am to gluten and other foods. I discoved this in febuary of 2011 and have been trying to sort out my food sensitivities which is extremely difficult.  Celiac disease is a well documented condition where the vili in your intestines reacts with gluten Medical dr's consider people who don't have the disease to simply be fad dieting. Not having medical insurance I can't afford to be tested Regardless I know it's no fad for me, before I went on the limited diet every step I took I would have mild pain in my stomach, my stomach was distended, It would bloat after eating and was extremely unpleasant, I had to nap for an hour or two after lunch. I had hunger like pains that were not necessarily from being hungry chronic diarea.  These symptoms have largely subsided since I changed my diet (not the diareah). I still get a runny nose and cough up flem when I eat but not as bad though. The reason I mention it is it's an indicator of a sensitivity or allergy.  If I eat corn chips I get sharp pains in my chest which I assume is inflammation in my esophagus.

Where I'm going with this again is I think to say all this was caused by mold is over simplifying it to the point of absurdity and without serious research people will not be able to do anything but speculate.

Christ

[Guest guest]

Will,

That was odd, oxymoron post. Please clarify your "professional" anecdotal statements and provide documentation of your source information.

"At the end of the day, seems that those who are still pushing toxic mold exposure are losing credibility while mental illness is increasingly attributed to many undiagnosable cases. But I remain open minded"

Losing credibility with whom?

You remain "open minded" about what?

Who used the term "toxic mold" to describe the exposure to multiple contaminants that are found in water damaged buildings? I don't see anyone by you using that term to describe the exposure.

Who is increasingly attributing many undiagnosable cases to mental illness?

If they are "undiagnosable" then how are they diagnosed as mental illness?

Why is it appropriate for you to make "open minded" anecdotal statements on this board while you state you do not want to see anecdotal information by others?

Sharon

Objectives. We investigated the relation between respiratory symptoms and exposure to water-damaged homes and the effect of respirator use in posthurricane New Orleans, Louisiana.

Methods. We randomly selected 600 residential sites and then interviewed 1 adult per site. We created an exposure variable, calculated upper respiratory symptom (URS) and lower respiratory symptom (LRS) scores, and defined exacerbation categories by the effect on symptoms of being inside water-damaged homes. We used multiple linear regression to model symptom scores (for all participants) and polytomous logistic regression to model exacerbation of symptoms when inside (for those participating in clean-up).

Results. Of 553 participants (response rate=92%), 372 (68%) had participated in clean-up; 233 (63%) of these used a respirator. Respiratory symptom scores increased linearly with exposure (P<.05 for trend). Disposable-respirator use was associated with lower odds of exacerbation of moderate or severe symptoms inside water-damaged homes for URS (odds ratio (OR)=.51; 95% confidence interval (CI)=0.24, 1.09) and LRS (OR=0.33; 95% CI=0.13, 0.83).

Conclusions. Respiratory symptoms were positively associated with exposure to water-damaged homes, including exposure limited to being inside without participating in clean-up. Respirator use had a protective effect and should be considered when inside water-damaged homes regardless of activities undertaken.Read More: http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2007.118398

[Guest guest]

Care to be a little more elaborate on what you mean by 

   " anecdotal experts "  Will?My definition of this would be every single poster including you. Christ

[Guest guest]

Will wrote:

"At the end of the day, seems that those who are still pushing toxic mold exposure are losing credibility while mental illness is increasingly attributed to many undiagnosable cases."

Will,

It has been my observation that those who are still pushing toxic mold exposure, particularly the medical doctors and toxicologists, still do not understand immunologically acquired chemical hypersensitivities.

It has also been my observation that, in every case, mental illness as a cause of "mold related illness" has never been diagnosed by a qualified psychiatrist. Mental illness (psychogenic/somataform disease) is diagnosed as a cause ONLY by doctors who cannot figure out what is really wrong with their mold-affected patient. I do not discount the possibility of real psychological effects in those traumatized by their circumstances. I am saying that doctors have to rule out neurologic hypersensitivity effects before a psychiatric diagnosis can be made.

It seems a bit of a stretch to say that all of the people who say that indoor mold has made them sick are not really sick.

I can certainly understand how you have gotten the impression you now have regarding mycotoxins as the cause of mold-related illness and do not fault you for your impression at all. To the contrary, I appreciate your forthright questions and think that more people should be asking the same questions.

Again, the way to settle the bet is to figure out what has actually happened to those real individuals who have become sick as a result of their exposure to indoor mold and related contaminants. It is not all that difficult to figure out when you spend time with them and watch what happens to them when they are exposed. As a general rule, doctors don't do this - and neither do most IEQ practitioners.

Steve Temes

Mold Related Illness

>

>

>

>

>

> We had our annual mold/IEQ presentation at our builder's conference last week. I have known the presenter for 7 years and he always does a very good job updating us on the latest in research, IEQ inspections, remediation protocols and his field observations.

>

> Every year someone asks the same question - How many truly sick individuals does he encounter each year from a mold related illness.

>

> The answer is about the same each year - Acute reactions are fairly common, however, chronic disease or incapacitated/hospitalized cases as a result of exposure are very rare with an emphasis on "very". Typically the chronic cases have an underlying cause that is exasperated by exposure to poor IEQ conditions.

>

> We still hear so much about toxic mold exposure. According to our presenter, the most vocal preachers of toxic mold typically have a financial interest in promoting the concept.

>

> So questions for the group:

>

> 1. What is your experience with truly sick clients?

>

> 2. With so many homes, schools and businesses reportedly having poor IEQ, why are we not seeing more chronic disease "medically linked" to mold, biotoxins and mVOC exposure?

>

> Thanks,

>

> Will

>

[Guest guest]

By the way I made a pretty elaborate post on a sceptic forum at skeptoid.com why the " Psychosomatic " diagnosis is BS and has no place being discussed as a viable " scientific "  explanation for most of these illness, even the really bizarre ones like morgellons.  

The CDC estimates around a million people with CFS:http://www.cdc.gov/cfs/general/causes/risk_groups.html

The way I'm thinking if the condition " phychosomatic " exist's at all the numbers are no where nearly this high. Just seems very unlikly this many people suffer from this kind of mental illness. Seems like it would fall under the catogory of an " extrodinary claim "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosomatic_medicine

The description is very vague a good indicator it's psuedo science. Any well understodd science or even ones that are difficult to prove have lots of supportive evidence. 

Take this one for instance:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang#Cosmic_microwave_background_radiation

Other indicators it's psuedo science are:It's usually based on a kernal of truth, or they take some bit of truth than embelish on it like mass hysteria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_hysteriaNot a very comprehensive article most of which is based on antidotes which ordinarly would carry no weight as far as evidence goes but here researchers make exceptions.  If a bunch of people swear by homiopathic no self respecting scientist would say " oh ok "

The kernal of truth I am talking about is I use the example durring the 1907 quake in sanfransico there were rumors going around that other major cities like Chicago were destroyed also.  That could be considiered a type of hysteria has nothing to do with thinking your ill but the same concept where people observe others acting in a certain manner and for whatever reason mimic the behavior.  A good way to test this and I suspect it's conveniently not been done is to do follow up on all these people or antidotes and see 2, 5, 10 years later weather they are leading normal lives. People with CFS don't lead by any measure " normal " lives " . There often recluses, they lay in bed all day their activity is minimal, can't stand being judged by people so don't have any friends etc. etc. My guess is if you were to follow up on this you would find no corrlation between CFS and Mass Hysteria but people promoting it always seem to be trying to make this case.

Been so long but back in the late 90's when I first took ill with CFS, Dr Dean Edel used to say on national radio and this is a bad paraphrase I can't remember his exact words " it's been reserched excesively " What he ment or what I got from this " therefor it can only be pyschological and we need to stop fritering valuable research dollars on it when it will never be proven otherwise "  I think this would be a good example of the argument from ignorance.  It also assumes medical science knows and understands all physiological illnesses which is pretty silly.

Another arguement people use when I say pyschosomatic illnesses are psuedo science is " we know they exist because were told this over and over by otherwise reputable athorities so it must be so " Well it may be true it may not but we know some black people rape women, does that mean we should convict every black person we suspect solely on that basis?

Of course we can't prove or disprove somebody suffers from the condition another solid indicator it's not science.You will never see a medical dr put on any individuals chart " suffers from pyschosomatic disorder " not unless they are really wacked out. Instead moslty media outlets like reason magozine and many others of the like  infer or suggest such on groups of people like those with CFS, GWS, MCS, ME, lymes, etc. without being spesific and will often site some really poorly done study that would ordinarly be ignored by any major medical jornal  to support their claim.

Another falicy is they will automatically assume it's " pyschosomatic " simply becuase the patients self diagnosis is imposible or at the very least very unlikly, like " post lymes " or " Chemical Sensitivity " or " Electormagnitic sensitivity "  The fallacy here is that simply because somebody has self diagnosed themselves in error doesn't mean they are not suffering from some underlying pysiological illness. A good example is an article I read of a morgellans suffer (people that think they have cotton and synthedic fibers growing underneath their skin) who actually had a parathyroid tumor. So the illness was real her self diagnosis was wrong, but so were all the people who imediatly jumped to the conclusion it was psychosomatic! Her only crime was that she deluded herself.

I'm sure there are other things I'm missing here that make this diagnosis worthless.A lot of corporations have billions of dollars to lose in liablility cases so their is plenty of incentive for bias here.

Since I've discovered I am sensitized to many differnt foods I have read that Celiac disease is way way underdiagnosed, and part of this problem (I believe) is Dr's assume it's pyschosomatic and this is the damage that get's done by this type of psudeo science and why I am so ***@SD#$ dammed  pissed off about it.

Another example is all the illnesses caused by agent orange:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange

Again and I'm assuming here all the veietnam vets that were sickend by this crap (and this is fact) were ignored and summarily labled " pyscosomatic " again in a vague non specific mannor. Are there any malpractic suites here? Nope. Any other such flagorant misdiagnosis would end up with a 7 figure payout and without a trial.

Another thing I have noticed is public health officials ignore things that are shouting out to be looked at " YOHOOO! over here this is very plausible " just like the agent orange fiascal, I mean duuuhhhh! Take mold related illness, very plausable but dismised by public health officials largely based on a type of strawman argument.

http://www.acoem.org/AdverseHumanHealthEffects_Molds.aspx " Mycotoxins are produced by micro organisims in microscope quantities therefore the condition does not exist " Ignoreing that that's not the only pathway that might predispose somebody. 

Another argument is " mold can't possibly do this to a healthy individual so the claims are false " That doesn't mean it can't do this to an imunocomprimised individual which they acknowledge but in doing so they exclude all but the ones that are well documented, like aids suffer's, transplant patients that take imunosuppresant drugs, chemo patient's. The fallacy here is their might be some type of imunological disorder that isn't yet understood but they've completly dismissed this posibility.

Personally when I am on support groups maybe it's because I am only counting the " hits " but people seem to describe the basic condition so much simialar to what I suffer it's beyond anidotal to me. 

Flue like symptoms, loss of coardination, severe debilitating fatigue, dificulty with problem solving skills which is worsed by stress (doesn't mean it's pyschological just logical that somebody with a neurological condition is going to have " even more " difficulty when stress is involved.)  The reason so many people talk about " toxins " is because you feel like your being poisoned. I hate to admit this cause I know how it will be inturpreted but I don't like taking food from people cause on more than one occasion I actually suspected them of puting something in my food. I get that *#*# dammed not paranoid SICK!  I've had a heavy metal screen come back negitive but I had the test done for the same reason. Doesn't mean I am imagining the illness simply because I can't pin down the casue.

I do know beyond a reasonable doubt my house made me sick:http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x74/antares41_41/floor.jpg

It was loaded with mold. I went in for any considerable period of time I got sick I went out for any considerable period of time and I got undenyably better. I repeat the test and get the same result. 

I do pretty much know the same about gluten and a lot of other foods I haven't naild down. Oh I know it's a fad diet unless I have celiac. That's what I thought too for the first 14 years of my illness and I ignored it completly. I actually found this out quite by accident, sometimes I get so sick I seek out a comfort food and I am off dairy doesn't leave much left so I go to walmart and buy a pound or two of french fries. I decided to buy a 15lb bag of patatos and make my own and binged on them for 5 days straight  and my symptoms dropped dramatically. Don't understand why but deep fried patatos and meat are safe for me almost everything else is up in the air for me at this point. It's going to take a long long time for me to sort it all out.

Christ