Guest guest Posted September 4, 2005 Report Share Posted September 4, 2005 No one has mentioned your name. It's the original poster and his reply that's got folks stirred. His way of getting donations is a sure way of getting the LDN Fund canned in a heartbeat because nobody will donate to someone with an attitude such as this. A friendly weekly reminder post of the LDN Fund and the link to the site provided is all that's needed. ============== Original Message ----- > > From: " aegis_on_ms " <aegis_on_ms@...> > > <low dose naltrexone > > > Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 7:16 AM > > Subject: [low dose naltrexone] Re: LDN fund > status > >> > >I would request the members of this board > post a message..when they > > > have donated. It serves two purposes..to > remind others that more > > > work needs to be done and secondly, it > recognizes/identifies the > > > individuals who are making a sacrifice in > some aspect of their life, > > > so that even those selfless folks who only > wish to receive, but not > > > give may have a better life. > > > > > > The harsh reality of life is that we must > take the initiative > > > ourselves..the govt. will then support you. > This truth is also > > > becoming obvious to the Katrina victims. > > > > > > Having said that..I have made my > donation..in excess of the amount > > > requested. > > > > > > A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 The treatment of infections in autoimmune is poorly performed.Remember that big infections need smart therapy. Tuberculosis is treated aggressively and somewhat monitored for a couple of years.They often start with three and even four drugs in the beginning.To me the eye opener for us is that we often have a bigger infection than tuberculsosis, (tb isn't as debilitating). You then look thru the chaemotherapy (antibiotics treatments) and find an article which sums up why we don't have it right when they use 12 grams a day of tetracycline for the tb organism.I don't recommend anyone try this, but I think in desperation with resistant treatmnent they have thrown this in to the mix.So if we want to feel better it seems we can achieve it sometimes with our chaemotherapy- but! doing a protocol that is designed to get the job done is another story. > > Jill ,Interesting term " tamper with nature " Too true ..But isn't it a case > of nature tampering with us ! Our IS's are downgraded, evaded so stressed > out that we don't muster enough components of our IS to give a credible > fight. The Anergy we display to infection is profound ..all in all no > contest, the pathogens have us for a meal ticket. > > So whats next ..big time antibiotics ? Kill the infection! well no, some do > well on high dose abx's but the majority don't, it's well documented that > high dose abx in most cases do not cure, We hope that blocking the > inflammatory response with ARB's allowing the IS to work unhindered as it > were plus abx's will do the trick but it's far from a certainty. > While i take your point that these drugs are not to be taken lightly We also > need to evaluate every treatment plan.... possible risks against possible > benefits ..I put the argument that we cannot afford to ignore any possible > beneficial therapy .we are just not in a bargaining position ... " I would > rather kill the infection than tamper with nature " is just not an option at > the moment. > > > > > On the drugs you quote it's clear that using ARB's to control inflammation > would be far more effective than Remicaid . And Tysabri was one fatality & > one possible complication in 8,000 patients Those patients being extremely > ill with MS. > > http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hmn/W00/mu_10.html > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.7/112 - Release Date: 26/09/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 Did I say high dose antibiotics were the answer? For those who can tolerate like Tony, yes, but not for me. ALso, I don't think you should group us all into a " we " --ie " the anergy we display " etc as each infectiona nd host is different. I myself would never block the inflammatory response with ARB's and this has been argued endlessly on this and other boards and I mostly keep silent but I think its dangerous in most cases. Though quality of life is important, I wouldn't trade it for the downside of blocking the inflammatory response. No way. I'd get a hyperbaric machine instead as even pressure alone modifies the cytokine response from macrophages, and pressure plus oxygen is even better. Plus you're killing bugs in the meanwhile. I'm certainly not going to be the guinea pig for immunomodulators. Let them test it on mice and then phase I, II and III clinical trials and then the general population. I agree with the old saw that you shouldn't take any drug (unless of course you're in a very risky situation already) until its been out two years--THAT'S the real test of side effects....and then, not even, look at Vioxx! ANother example of the extraordinary danger of suppressing the inflammatory response. This is an intricate choreography nature has developed over the span of millions of years. It is a very intricate signalling system. Blocking one whole signalling pathway is a BAD idea. Even Tony, who I mostly agree with, I just cannot tolerate abx because of such bad fungal issues, anyway can't tolerate what he did, but, he recommends the old tried and true antibiotics mostly, have you noticed? Not the new ones which he often finds insufficient. Anyway, when I say I'd rather kill the pathogen it doesn't mean abx. in my case, I'm trying to make something else. But making something takes a while, and I don't have my own lab so I'm beholden to someone else's lab but he's working on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 > You then look thru the chaemotherapy (antibiotics treatments) and > find an article which sums up why we don't have it right when they > use 12 grams a day of tetracycline for the tb organism.I don't > recommend anyone try this, but I think in desperation with resistant > treatmnent they have thrown this in to the mix.So if we want to feel If its actually semi-safe to take 12g tetracycline /d, which I really doubt, I'd like to do so immediately. Are you sure its true? Do you have a reference of any kind? I briefly tried to look into literature to learn how much you can push the dose with doxy, demeclotetracycline, etc (its kinda hard to find out about archaic topics like this). From what little I could find it seemed like kidney destruction was a possibility. Now thats one risk I DONT wanna screw with. I was unable to discern how high this risk is (and I'm not saying its the only important risk). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 I wouldn't disagree with your analogy with TB at all....or with abx therapy based on TB lines ..it's just that we have "extra's" compromised gut flora is a real monkey on your back ...I wouldn't contemplate any risky therapy abx or immune boosting unless I had my full compliment of LAB on board...Just throwing drugs mindlessly at the problem is nuts ...judging when your not mindless is the trick.. How to access therapy to restore normal gut flora is vitally important .Unfortunately one doctor in the UK who was worth approaching is no longer taking patients , -----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of dumbaussie2000Sent: 27 September 2005 18:40infections Subject: [infections] Re: JillThe treatment of infections in autoimmune is poorly performed.Remember that big infections need smart therapy. Tuberculosis is treated aggressively and somewhat monitored for a couple of years.They often start with three and even four drugs in the beginning.To me the eye opener for us is that we often have a bigger infection than tuberculsosis, (tb isn't as debilitating). You then look thru the chaemotherapy (antibiotics treatments) and find an article which sums up why we don't have it right when they use 12 grams a day of tetracycline for the tb organism.I don't recommend anyone try this, but I think in desperation with resistant treatmnent they have thrown this in to the mix.So if we want to feel better it seems we can achieve it sometimes with our chaemotherapy- but! doing a protocol that is designed to get the job done is another story.> > Jill ,Interesting term "tamper with nature" Too true ..But isn't it a case> of nature tampering with us ! Our IS's are downgraded, evaded so stressed> out that we don't muster enough components of our IS to give a credible> fight. The Anergy we display to infection is profound ..all in all no> contest, the pathogens have us for a meal ticket.> > So whats next ..big time antibiotics ? Kill the infection! well no, some do> well on high dose abx's but the majority don't, it's well documented that> high dose abx in most cases do not cure, We hope that blocking the> inflammatory response with ARB's allowing the IS to work unhindered as it> were plus abx's will do the trick but it's far from a certainty.> While i take your point that these drugs are not to be taken lightly We also> need to evaluate every treatment plan.... possible risks against possible> benefits ..I put the argument that we cannot afford to ignore any possible> beneficial therapy .we are just not in a bargaining position ... "I would> rather kill the infection than tamper with nature" is just not an option at> the moment.> > > > > On the drugs you quote it's clear that using ARB's to control inflammation> would be far more effective than Remicaid . And Tysabri was one fatality & > one possible complication in 8,000 patients Those patients being extremely> ill with MS.> > http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hmn/W00/mu_10.html> > > > > --> No virus found in this outgoing message.> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.7/112 - Release Date: 26/09/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 This quote came from a chaemotherapy with antibiotics book describing how each infection is treated and with what volume and co- drug choices.The also mentioned the cycloserine I believe and even found a referance to a quinolone capable of helping in tuberculosis. I do know that they normally give 2 grams max a day IV or pill of tetracycliine and the mino and doxy only get 200 mg a day max dose.The good thing that was mentioned was that any serious infection is never treated with doxy or mino because at 10 times the amount the tetracycline was far superior therapy. > > You then look thru the chaemotherapy (antibiotics treatments) and > > find an article which sums up why we don't have it right when they > > use 12 grams a day of tetracycline for the tb organism.I don't > > recommend anyone try this, but I think in desperation with resistant > > treatmnent they have thrown this in to the mix.So if we want to feel > > > > If its actually semi-safe to take 12g tetracycline /d, which I really > doubt, I'd like to do so immediately. > > Are you sure its true? Do you have a reference of any kind? I briefly > tried to look into literature to learn how much you can push the dose > with doxy, demeclotetracycline, etc (its kinda hard to find out about > archaic topics like this). From what little I could find it seemed > like kidney destruction was a possibility. Now thats one risk I DONT > wanna screw with. I was unable to discern how high this risk is (and > I'm not saying its the only important risk). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 Just a thought, a rotation of the group(tetracycline/doxy/mino) is possably the smartest thing you can do and using at least a penicillin/augmentin/cephalasporin with this rotation may be beneficial. > > You then look thru the chaemotherapy (antibiotics treatments) and > > find an article which sums up why we don't have it right when they > > use 12 grams a day of tetracycline for the tb organism.I don't > > recommend anyone try this, but I think in desperation with resistant > > treatmnent they have thrown this in to the mix.So if we want to feel > > > > If its actually semi-safe to take 12g tetracycline /d, which I really > doubt, I'd like to do so immediately. > > Are you sure its true? Do you have a reference of any kind? I briefly > tried to look into literature to learn how much you can push the dose > with doxy, demeclotetracycline, etc (its kinda hard to find out about > archaic topics like this). From what little I could find it seemed > like kidney destruction was a possibility. Now thats one risk I DONT > wanna screw with. I was unable to discern how high this risk is (and > I'm not saying its the only important risk). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 doing the serious therapy is targeting the gut flora(THIS NEEDS FIXING). Thinking you've got something worthwhile keeping is silly.I have enough experience with gut flora to assure you that you find oral streptococci, high levels of staph and pseudonomads that are all not supposed to be there- especially in overgrowth. > > > > Jill ,Interesting term " tamper with nature " Too true ..But isn't > it a case > > of nature tampering with us ! Our IS's are downgraded, evaded so > stressed > > out that we don't muster enough components of our IS to give a > credible > > fight. The Anergy we display to infection is profound ..all in all > no > > contest, the pathogens have us for a meal ticket. > > > > So whats next ..big time antibiotics ? Kill the infection! well > no, some do > > well on high dose abx's but the majority don't, it's well > documented that > > high dose abx in most cases do not cure, We hope that blocking the > > inflammatory response with ARB's allowing the IS to work > unhindered as it > > were plus abx's will do the trick but it's far from a certainty. > > While i take your point that these drugs are not to be taken > lightly We also > > need to evaluate every treatment plan.... possible risks against > possible > > benefits ..I put the argument that we cannot afford to ignore any > possible > > beneficial therapy .we are just not in a bargaining > position ... " I would > > rather kill the infection than tamper with nature " is just not an > option at > > the moment. > > > > > > > > > > On the drugs you quote it's clear that using ARB's to control > inflammation > > would be far more effective than Remicaid . And Tysabri was one > fatality & > > one possible complication in 8,000 patients Those patients being > extremely > > ill with MS. > > > > http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hmn/W00/mu_10.html > > > > > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.7/112 - Release Date: > 26/09/2005 > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 Tony, how did this crap get into the gut in the first place? Overuse of antibiotics when kids? > > > > > > Jill ,Interesting term " tamper with nature " Too true ..But > isn't > > it a case > > > of nature tampering with us ! Our IS's are downgraded, > evaded so > > stressed > > > out that we don't muster enough components of our IS to give a > > credible > > > fight. The Anergy we display to infection is profound ..all in > all > > no > > > contest, the pathogens have us for a meal ticket. > > > > > > So whats next ..big time antibiotics ? Kill the infection! well > > no, some do > > > well on high dose abx's but the majority don't, it's well > > documented that > > > high dose abx in most cases do not cure, We hope that blocking > the > > > inflammatory response with ARB's allowing the IS to work > > unhindered as it > > > were plus abx's will do the trick but it's far from a > certainty. > > > While i take your point that these drugs are not to be taken > > lightly We also > > > need to evaluate every treatment plan.... possible risks > against > > possible > > > benefits ..I put the argument that we cannot afford to ignore > any > > possible > > > beneficial therapy .we are just not in a bargaining > > position ... " I would > > > rather kill the infection than tamper with nature " is just not > an > > option at > > > the moment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the drugs you quote it's clear that using ARB's to control > > inflammation > > > would be far more effective than Remicaid . And Tysabri was one > > fatality & > > > one possible complication in 8,000 patients Those patients > being > > extremely > > > ill with MS. > > > > > > http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hmn/W00/mu_10.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.7/112 - Release Date: > > 26/09/2005 > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 Jill Once you start the slime brigade staph epi/pseudonomads combo pollysacharide slime producers and who knows what other contributors. you've got toxic slime which acts like a constant antibiotic taking out the hard working flora and replacing it with the oral streptococci and eneterococci/pseudonomads that can avoid the slime onslaught. The problem also arises from using something toxic like antibiotics making your cells porous- that is like digging a hole in the garden and planting a seed.I feel strongly that asthma starts like this, any toxic exposure that creates that porous oppurtunity. Also many times you think I have a fungal problem yet it;s pseudonomads causing the problem. > > > > > > > > Jill ,Interesting term " tamper with nature " Too true ..But > > isn't > > > it a case > > > > of nature tampering with us ! Our IS's are downgraded, > > evaded so > > > stressed > > > > out that we don't muster enough components of our IS to give a > > > credible > > > > fight. The Anergy we display to infection is profound ..all > in > > all > > > no > > > > contest, the pathogens have us for a meal ticket. > > > > > > > > So whats next ..big time antibiotics ? Kill the infection! > well > > > no, some do > > > > well on high dose abx's but the majority don't, it's well > > > documented that > > > > high dose abx in most cases do not cure, We hope that > blocking > > the > > > > inflammatory response with ARB's allowing the IS to work > > > unhindered as it > > > > were plus abx's will do the trick but it's far from a > > certainty. > > > > While i take your point that these drugs are not to be taken > > > lightly We also > > > > need to evaluate every treatment plan.... possible risks > > against > > > possible > > > > benefits ..I put the argument that we cannot afford to ignore > > any > > > possible > > > > beneficial therapy .we are just not in a bargaining > > > position ... " I would > > > > rather kill the infection than tamper with nature " is just > not > > an > > > option at > > > > the moment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the drugs you quote it's clear that using ARB's to control > > > inflammation > > > > would be far more effective than Remicaid . And Tysabri was > one > > > fatality & > > > > one possible complication in 8,000 patients Those patients > > being > > > extremely > > > > ill with MS. > > > > > > > > http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hmn/W00/mu_10.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > > > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.7/112 - Release > Date: > > > 26/09/2005 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 Jill Just another thought. any time your feeling unwell there's a toxic component that is craeting an oppurtunity to keel you over for good.Look at sick building syndrome and how it affects oonly certain people, possably the ones with the highly resistant bacteria that fire up everytime they feel threatened I believe. > > > > > > > > Jill ,Interesting term " tamper with nature " Too true ..But > > isn't > > > it a case > > > > of nature tampering with us ! Our IS's are downgraded, > > evaded so > > > stressed > > > > out that we don't muster enough components of our IS to give a > > > credible > > > > fight. The Anergy we display to infection is profound ..all > in > > all > > > no > > > > contest, the pathogens have us for a meal ticket. > > > > > > > > So whats next ..big time antibiotics ? Kill the infection! > well > > > no, some do > > > > well on high dose abx's but the majority don't, it's well > > > documented that > > > > high dose abx in most cases do not cure, We hope that > blocking > > the > > > > inflammatory response with ARB's allowing the IS to work > > > unhindered as it > > > > were plus abx's will do the trick but it's far from a > > certainty. > > > > While i take your point that these drugs are not to be taken > > > lightly We also > > > > need to evaluate every treatment plan.... possible risks > > against > > > possible > > > > benefits ..I put the argument that we cannot afford to ignore > > any > > > possible > > > > beneficial therapy .we are just not in a bargaining > > > position ... " I would > > > > rather kill the infection than tamper with nature " is just > not > > an > > > option at > > > > the moment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the drugs you quote it's clear that using ARB's to control > > > inflammation > > > > would be far more effective than Remicaid . And Tysabri was > one > > > fatality & > > > > one possible complication in 8,000 patients Those patients > > being > > > extremely > > > > ill with MS. > > > > > > > > http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hmn/W00/mu_10.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > > > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.7/112 - Release > Date: > > > 26/09/2005 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2005 Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 Each to their own , as they say , I can see your one with shall we say a different approach ! I don't agree with your conclusions . Take the inflammatory response , Most relate to the destructive role of inflammation in chronic infections , that is a runaway reaction that is far and above the normal inflammatory response .It is self sustaining To equate that to normal functioning Is chalk & cheese Bringing the inflammatory function of the IS back to normal is the aim of ARB's . It's a medical fact that we develops a lessoning response [anergy] to long term infections .. Ask Penny about HB therapy ..And it's clear to me that we are in a risky situation , a disease that requires years of fairly intensive abx' therapy without any guarantees = risky situation to me -----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of jill1313Sent: 27 September 2005 19:07infections Subject: [infections] Re: JillDid I say high dose antibiotics were the answer? For those who can tolerate like Tony, yes, but not for me.ALso, I don't think you should group us all into a "we"--ie "the anergy we display" etc as each infectiona nd host is different.I myself would never block the inflammatory response with ARB's and this has been argued endlessly on this and other boards and I mostly keep silent but I think its dangerous in most cases. Though quality of life is important, I wouldn't trade it for the downside of blocking the inflammatory response. No way. I'd get a hyperbaric machine instead as even pressure alone modifies the cytokine response from macrophages, and pressure plus oxygen is even better. Plus you're killing bugs in the meanwhile.I'm certainly not going to be the guinea pig for immunomodulators. Let them test it on mice and then phase I, II and III clinical trials and then the general population. I agree with the old saw that you shouldn't take any drug (unless of course you're in a very risky situation already) until its been out two years--THAT'S the real test of side effects....and then, not even, look at Vioxx! ANother example of the extraordinary danger of suppressing the inflammatory response.This is an intricate choreography nature has developed over the span of millions of years. It is a very intricate signalling system. Blocking one whole signalling pathway is a BAD idea.Even Tony, who I mostly agree with, I just cannot tolerate abx because of such bad fungal issues, anyway can't tolerate what he did, but, he recommends the old tried and true antibiotics mostly, have you noticed? Not the new ones which he often finds insufficient.Anyway, when I say I'd rather kill the pathogen it doesn't mean abx. in my case, I'm trying to make something else. But making something takes a while, and I don't have my own lab so I'm beholden to someone else's lab but he's working on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 I didn't equate the chronic infloammatory response with normal functioning, , do you see m e saying that? I say that it has many important functions and if yo ublock the part that's causing you discomfort, you may block crucial functions to other parts of the body and end up having strokes, heart attacks (vioxx), cancer (remicade), PML (remicade, enbrel) etc. Rather, take the chronic inflammation as a message and try to get rid of the cause. > Each to their own , as they say , I can see your one with shall we say a > different approach ! I don't agree with your conclusions . Take the > inflammatory response , Most relate to the destructive role of inflammation > in chronic infections , that is a runaway reaction that is far and above the > normal inflammatory response .It is self sustaining To equate that to > normal functioning Is chalk & cheese Bringing the inflammatory function of > the IS back to normal is the aim of ARB's . It's a medical fact that we > develops a lessoning response [anergy] to long term infections .. Ask Penny > about HB therapy ..And it's clear to me that we are in a risky situation , a > disease that requires years of fairly intensive abx' therapy without any > guarantees = risky situation to me > [infections] Re: Jill > > > Did I say high dose antibiotics were the answer? For those who can > tolerate like Tony, yes, but not for me. > > ALso, I don't think you should group us all into a " we " --ie " the > anergy we display " etc as each infectiona nd host is different. > > I myself would never block the inflammatory response with ARB's and > this has been argued endlessly on this and other boards and I mostly > keep silent but I think its dangerous in most cases. Though quality > of life is important, I wouldn't trade it for the downside of > blocking the inflammatory response. No way. I'd get a hyperbaric > machine instead as even pressure alone modifies the cytokine response > from macrophages, and pressure plus oxygen is even better. Plus > you're killing bugs in the meanwhile. > > I'm certainly not going to be the guinea pig for immunomodulators. > Let them test it on mice and then phase I, II and III clinical trials > and then the general population. I agree with the old saw that you > shouldn't take any drug (unless of course you're in a very risky > situation already) until its been out two years--THAT'S the real test > of side effects....and then, not even, look at Vioxx! ANother example > of the extraordinary danger of suppressing the inflammatory response. > > This is an intricate choreography nature has developed over the span > of millions of years. It is a very intricate signalling system. > Blocking one whole signalling pathway is a BAD idea. > > Even Tony, who I mostly agree with, I just cannot tolerate abx > because of such bad fungal issues, anyway can't tolerate what he did, > but, he recommends the old tried and true antibiotics mostly, have > you noticed? Not the new ones which he often finds insufficient. > > Anyway, when I say I'd rather kill the pathogen it doesn't mean abx. > in my case, I'm trying to make something else. But making something > takes a while, and I don't have my own lab so I'm beholden to someone > else's lab but he's working on it. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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