Re: Curious: Carbon monoxide in blood but not in townhome - Responses

[Guest guest]

Thank you everyone with a response to my question! Here's my quick

response to your postings (as in the Digest Version I got today), and

I'll say more after I speak to the caller again.

Finding organic vapors over 15% LEL twice is a smoking gun. Forget about

the CO (for now) and find the fuel before there is an explosion.

As for the CO, there is a source of flammable or combustible gas; perhaps a

fuel being burned intermittently and incompletely. They should consider

using a datalogging instrument with VOC, CO2, and CO.

Don Schaezler, Ph.D., P.E., CIH

There were several cases here in Canada where old, uncontained garbage dumps

had been closed and covered; a number of decomposition gases had been found

in

whole neighborhoods around the dumps, but CO was not the real scare. The

combustible gases were also very high and one woman set fire to the 'draft'

that came through a basement wall.

If the combustibles and CO are both high, as they are here, you might want

to

have that person have the local authority check for the presence of old

technology landfill sites (they may not want to admit to garbage dumps).

Jim H. White SSC

It does not explain the slightly elevated COHb levels, but your other clues

point to a propane leak. Levels of combustible gas high enough to be

measured

as 15-20% of an LEL on an explosive gas meter is more than enough to

potentially explain the occupant's reported symptoms. The mercaptan added to

propane (and natural gas) as a warning odor is easily scrubbed out, so that

little or no odor may be present. The symptoms of headache, dizziness, and

nausea are very commonly reported by people occupying buildings that have 5

ppm

or more TVOCs (measured as methane) and gas leaks (methane or propane) are

very

commonly the source of elevated TVOCs.

Curtis

Great ideas! Curtis, a propane leak could explain a fair amount of

this.

I'll also suggest that he check on the possibility of something being

buried.

Because he's renting, he might choose to move instead -- but I suggested

he inform the landlord of everything.

Are candles burned in the house? Is it possible that the CO is entering the

house from the outside? Where is the intake to the ventilation system

located? Is there a dump or factory nearby releasing large amounts of CO?

Norman Gauss

Good questions, but no. I can't believe there's high levels of CO in

the outside air, based on his description of the area.

I work at EPA. I've not asked, but I think that if any city were

violating our outdoor air standard for CO (15 ppm) for weeks, it'd be

talked about in within EPA .

The townhouse is in a green suburb outside a big city in NC, without any

industry nearby,

Like most residential systems, the ventilation system has no intake. .

I did not ask about candles, but I think it'd take a lot of candles to

raise CO, and the fire fighters would have spotted them on their visit.

Possible explanations for slightly elevated COHb other than the ones

mentioned already:

endogenous

Persons with hymolytic diseases (accelerated

catabolism of red blood

cells increasing endogenously produced COHb)

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/47/4/723

Tim Wallace, FL Dept of Health

I'll pass this and everything else along to this caller.

Lastly, of course, the COHb blood tests could be off. Levels reported

are 3-6x higher than typical, but the doctor's office could be off.

That plus a propane leak would wrap it all up -- but I'm sure it's not

that simple.

Henry Slack

US EPA Region 4

[Guest guest]

Henry, was this ever figured out?

>

>

> Thank you everyone with a response to my question! Here's my quick

> response to your postings (as in the Digest Version I got today), and

> I'll say more after I speak to the caller again.

>

>

>

>

>

> Finding organic vapors over 15% LEL twice is a smoking gun. Forget about

> the CO (for now) and find the fuel before there is an explosion.

>

> As for the CO, there is a source of flammable or combustible gas; perhaps

a

> fuel being burned intermittently and incompletely. They should consider

> using a datalogging instrument with VOC, CO2, and CO.

>

> Don Schaezler, Ph.D., P.E., CIH

>

>

>

> There were several cases here in Canada where old, uncontained garbage

dumps

> had been closed and covered; a number of decomposition gases had been

found in

> whole neighborhoods around the dumps, but CO was not the real scare. The

> combustible gases were also very high and one woman set fire to the

'draft'

> that came through a basement wall.

>

> If the combustibles and CO are both high, as they are here, you might want

to

> have that person have the local authority check for the presence of old

> technology landfill sites (they may not want to admit to garbage dumps).

>

> Jim H. White SSC

>

>

> It does not explain the slightly elevated COHb levels, but your other

clues

> point to a propane leak. Levels of combustible gas high enough to be

measured

> as 15-20% of an LEL on an explosive gas meter is more than enough to

> potentially explain the occupant's reported symptoms. The mercaptan added

to

> propane (and natural gas) as a warning odor is easily scrubbed out, so

that

> little or no odor may be present. The symptoms of headache, dizziness, and

> nausea are very commonly reported by people occupying buildings that have

5 ppm

> or more TVOCs (measured as methane) and gas leaks (methane or propane) are

very

> commonly the source of elevated TVOCs.

>

> Curtis

>

>

>

>

> Great ideas! Curtis, a propane leak could explain a fair amount of

> this.

> I'll also suggest that he check on the possibility of something being

> buried.

> Because he's renting, he might choose to move instead -- but I suggested

> he inform the landlord of everything.

>

>

>

>

> Are candles burned in the house? Is it possible that the CO is entering

the

> house from the outside? Where is the intake to the ventilation system

> located? Is there a dump or factory nearby releasing large amounts of CO?

>

> Norman Gauss

>

>

>

>

> Good questions, but no. I can't believe there's high levels of CO in

> the outside air, based on his description of the area.

> I work at EPA. I've not asked, but I think that if any city were

> violating our outdoor air standard for CO (15 ppm) for weeks, it'd be

> talked about in within EPA .

> The townhouse is in a green suburb outside a big city in NC, without any

> industry nearby,

> Like most residential systems, the ventilation system has no intake. .

> I did not ask about candles, but I think it'd take a lot of candles to

> raise CO, and the fire fighters would have spotted them on their visit.

>

>

>

>

> Possible explanations for slightly elevated COHb other than the ones

> mentioned already:

>

> endogenous

> Persons with hymolytic diseases (accelerated

> catabolism of red blood

> cells increasing endogenously produced COHb)

>

> http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/47/4/723

>

> Tim Wallace, FL Dept of Health

>

>

> I'll pass this and everything else along to this caller.

>

> Lastly, of course, the COHb blood tests could be off. Levels reported

> are 3-6x higher than typical, but the doctor's office could be off.

> That plus a propane leak would wrap it all up -- but I'm sure it's not

> that simple.

>

> Henry Slack

> US EPA Region 4

>