Guest guest Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 I have listened and learned a lot... it is my time to try to answer.According to Pete's notes from the workshop,FRONTAL Beta should be higher (10-15%) on the left and Alpha higher (10 to 15%) on the right. Alpha/Beta should be 1.1SuzanneHi Pete~I know you don't have the Alpha /beta ratios listed on the assessment but I wondered if you know what those ratios should be. I heard someone say 2.0 but since its acceptable for theta/beta ratio to be as high as 2.0 I wondered if maybe that number was low. Thanks for any light,~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 Dear Suzanne~ Thanks so much for your answer. I was hoping to find out how much more alpha than beta it was acceptable to have without it being a struggle. 2X more or even more than that?? Thanks, ~ Re: Alpha /Beta ratios I have listened and learned a lot... it is my time to try to answer. According to Pete's notes from the workshop, FRONTAL Beta should be higher (10-15%) on the left and Alpha higher (10 to 15%) on the right. Alpha/Beta should be 1.1 Suzanne Hi Pete~ I know you don't have the Alpha /beta ratios listed on the assessment but I wondered if you know what those ratios should be. I heard someone say 2.0 but since its acceptable for theta/beta ratio to be as high as 2.0 I wondered if maybe that number was low. Thanks for any light, ~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 ,When you look on your first report page, Reversal, you have in black (acceptable), in blue (too low) in Red (too high)Lets take an example (from a Head page - amplitude)Right Alpha (F4)19.9, left Alpha (F3) 16.75 =ratio 1.19 (19.9/16.5)Left Beta (F3) 10.11, right Beta (F4) 10.33 = ratio of .98 (too much Beta on the right)I hope it is answering some of your questions. We go from questions to question in this field of Neurofeedback, That is why this list is so helpful.Suzanne Dear Suzanne~ Thanks so much for your answer. I was hoping to find out how much more alpha than beta it was acceptable to have without it being a struggle. 2X more or even more than that?? Thanks, ~ Re: Alpha /Beta ratios I have listened and learned a lot... it is my time to try to answer. According to Pete's notes from the workshop, FRONTAL Beta should be higher (10-15%) on the left and Alpha higher (10 to 15%) on the right. Alpha/Beta should be 1.1 Suzanne Hi Pete~ I know you don't have the Alpha /beta ratios listed on the assessment but I wondered if you know what those ratios should be. I heard someone say 2.0 but since its acceptable for theta/beta ratio to be as high as 2.0 I wondered if maybe that number was low. Thanks for any light, ~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 Thanks Suzanne. I guess I am not explaining what I need very well. The info I am asking for is not listed on the TLC and was hoping Pete or someone might suggest a preferred range for Alpha/(over ) Beta at the same site. ~ Re: Alpha /Beta ratios I have listened and learned a lot... it is my time to try to answer. According to Pete's notes from the workshop, FRONTAL Beta should be higher (10-15%) on the left and Alpha higher (10 to 15%) on the right. Alpha/Beta should be 1.1 Suzanne Hi Pete~ I know you don't have the Alpha /beta ratios listed on the assessment but I wondered if you know what those ratios should be. I heard someone say 2.0 but since its acceptable for theta/beta ratio to be as high as 2.0 I wondered if maybe that number was low. Thanks for any light, ~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Dear Suzanne, Sometimes things must ‘come up’ in practice before they make much sense. Hence, the late response to your kind email to . When you say that the alpha/beta should be 1.1 but you don’t specify a location, I’m somewhat confused. Do you mean that the alpha/beta ratio should be 1.1, and at what location (I’m assuming F3 or F4 or both)? With eyes closed or open? On task? Jill From: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf Of Suzanne Day Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:30 AM To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Alpha /Beta ratios I have listened and learned a lot... it is my time to try to answer. According to Pete's notes from the workshop, FRONTAL Beta should be higher (10-15%) on the left and Alpha higher (10 to 15%) on the right. Alpha/Beta should be 1.1 Suzanne Hi Pete~ I know you don't have the Alpha /beta ratios listed on the assessment but I wondered if you know what those ratios should be. I heard someone say 2.0 but since its acceptable for theta/beta ratio to be as high as 2.0 I wondered if maybe that number was low. Thanks for any light, ~ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.7/488 - Release Date: 10/19/2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Jill, Actually this is not the alpha/beta ratio Suzanne is describing. It is the alpha F4 / alpha F3 or Beta F3 / Beta F4. These are symmetry ratios which measure whether the left or right prefrontal areas are dominant. We usually look at them with eyes closed, though you can do so with eyes open as well. As for 's question, I don't have the alpha / beta ratios on the assessment, since I don't really know of a good basis for a ratio. With eyes closed, in the front of the head, we want theta to be about 1.5 times beta, and we want alpha to be about even with theta (A/T ratio of 1), so presumable alpha/beta would be about the same as theta/beta, or around 1.5. In the back of the head, we want alpha/theta to be around 1.5 .. If theta / beta is also around 1.5, then alpha / beta should be around 2.25. Hope this is helpful. Pete Dear Suzanne, Sometimes things must 'come up' in practice before they make much sense. Hence, the late response to your kind email to . When you say that the alpha/beta should be 1.1 but you don't specify a location, I'm somewhat confused. Do you mean that the alpha/beta ratio should be 1.1, and at what location (I'm assuming F3 or F4 or both)? With eyes closed or open? On task? Jill From: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf Of Suzanne Day Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:30 AMTo: braintrainer Subject: Re: Alpha /Beta ratios I have listened and learned a lot... it is my time to try to answer. According to Pete's notes from the workshop, FRONTAL Beta should be higher (10-15%) on the left and Alpha higher (10 to 15%) on the right. Alpha/Beta should be 1.1 Suzanne Hi Pete~ I know you don't have the Alpha /beta ratios listed on the assessment but I wondered if you know what those ratios should be. I heard someone say 2.0 but since its acceptable for theta/beta ratio to be as high as 2.0 I wondered if maybe that number was low. Thanks for any light, ~ --No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.7/488 - Release Date: 10/19/2006 -- Van Deusen pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Pete, Thanks so much for your insight and experience. I’d no idea that Rosenfeld had a patent. On a protocol? Although I’m using the Infiniti, I believe that I can set up the calculation that you advise. I’d rather not mess with the cingulate! The linked ears is easier as well, and I’d wondered about that when reading the protocol in the article. Thanks again! Jill From: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf Of Van Deusen Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 1:43 PM To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Alpha /Beta ratios In the TLC BioExplorer design package there are a couple alpha beta symmetry designs and a couple alpha or beta balance packages. I don't like using the Baehr method, though you can do so (but watch out for Rosenfeld's patent). You set up an expression in BioExplorer, run alpha from Channel 1 (F3) into Input 1 and alpha from Channel 2 (F4) into Input 2. The formula is (in2-in1)/(in2+in1). The problem is that this gives you feedback when alpha is equal or higher on the right side (where you want it to be 10-15% higher). I prefer the simpler In2/In1 and set the threshold at 1.1. This will give feedback whenever right side alpha is 10% or more higher at F4. Also, the Baehrs use F3/Cz and F4/Cz as their montage--linking both actives to a reference at Cz. I much prefer F3/A1 and F4/A2 with linked ears as the reference. The first way tends to train over the cingulate, which can result in some issues of obsessive or compulsive behaviors; the second way gives the same benefit (both sides compared against the same reference) but trains away from the cingulate. Pete On 1/4/07, Glacier Biofeedback <voyagercyberport (DOT) net> wrote: Dear Pete and , This is helpful. I thought that the alphas should be measured at F3/F4 and compared with each other rather than compared with the betas. Actually, I am working with trying to understand symmetries and what we're really shooting for when training alpha asymmetry. Then I can build a screen which will do that in a similar way to Baehr, Rosenfeld & Baehr's method (unless that's much outdated in which case please tell me!) The alpha/beta ratio is therefore a separate issue, if I understand you correctly. Is there an appropriate reason to look at or try to interpret an alpha/beta ratio? If not, I won't worry about it! Jill From: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf Of Van Deusen Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 11:11 AM To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Alpha /Beta ratios Jill, Actually this is not the alpha/beta ratio Suzanne is describing. It is the alpha F4 / alpha F3 or Beta F3 / Beta F4. These are symmetry ratios which measure whether the left or right prefrontal areas are dominant. We usually look at them with eyes closed, though you can do so with eyes open as well. As for 's question, I don't have the alpha / beta ratios on the assessment, since I don't really know of a good basis for a ratio. With eyes closed, in the front of the head, we want theta to be about 1.5 times beta, and we want alpha to be about even with theta (A/T ratio of 1), so presumable alpha/beta would be about the same as theta/beta, or around 1.5. In the back of the head, we want alpha/theta to be around 1.5 .. If theta / beta is also around 1.5, then alpha / beta should be around 2.25. Hope this is helpful. Pete On 1/4/07, Glacier Biofeedback < voyagercyberport (DOT) net> wrote: Dear Suzanne, Sometimes things must 'come up' in practice before they make much sense. Hence, the late response to your kind email to . When you say that the alpha/beta should be 1.1 but you don't specify a location, I'm somewhat confused. Do you mean that the alpha/beta ratio should be 1.1, and at what location (I'm assuming F3 or F4 or both)? With eyes closed or open? On task? Jill From: braintrainer [mailto: braintrainer ] On Behalf Of Suzanne Day Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:30 AM To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Alpha /Beta ratios I have listened and learned a lot... it is my time to try to answer. According to Pete's notes from the workshop, FRONTAL Beta should be higher (10-15%) on the left and Alpha higher (10 to 15%) on the right. Alpha/Beta should be 1.1 Suzanne Hi Pete~ I know you don't have the Alpha /beta ratios listed on the assessment but I wondered if you know what those ratios should be. I heard someone say 2.0 but since its acceptable for theta/beta ratio to be as high as 2.0 I wondered if maybe that number was low. Thanks for any light, ~ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.7 /488 - Release Date: 10/19/2006 -- Van Deusen pvdtlcgmail http://www.brain-trainer.com 305/433-3160 The Learning Curve, Inc. -- Van Deusen pvdtlcgmail http://www.brain-trainer.com 305/433-3160 The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Unfortunately, it's possible to patent anything as long as nobody challenges it, and no-one has bothered to challenge 's patent because it is so easy to work around it. You can certainly set up any of the formulae I mentioned in Infiniti. Francois DuPont's TLC Suite already has these files on it. Pete Pete, Thanks so much for your insight and experience. I'd no idea that Rosenfeld had a patent. On a protocol? Although I'm using the Infiniti, I believe that I can set up the calculation that you advise. I'd rather not mess with the cingulate! The linked ears is easier as well, and I'd wondered about that when reading the protocol in the article. Thanks again! Jill From: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf Of Van Deusen Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 1:43 PM To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Alpha /Beta ratios In the TLC BioExplorer design package there are a couple alpha beta symmetry designs and a couple alpha or beta balance packages. I don't like using the Baehr method, though you can do so (but watch out for Rosenfeld's patent). You set up an expression in BioExplorer, run alpha from Channel 1 (F3) into Input 1 and alpha from Channel 2 (F4) into Input 2. The formula is (in2-in1)/(in2+in1). The problem is that this gives you feedback when alpha is equal or higher on the right side (where you want it to be 10-15% higher). I prefer the simpler In2/In1 and set the threshold at 1.1. This will give feedback whenever right side alpha is 10%or more higher at F4. Also, the Baehrs use F3/Cz and F4/Cz as their montage--linking both actives to a reference at Cz. I much prefer F3/A1 and F4/A2 with linked ears as the reference. The first way tends to train over the cingulate, which can result in some issues of obsessive or compulsive behaviors; the second way gives the same benefit (both sides compared against the same reference) but trains away from the cingulate. Pete On 1/4/07, Glacier Biofeedback < voyager@...> wrote: Dear Pete and , This is helpful. I thought that the alphas should be measured at F3/F4 and compared with each other rather than compared with the betas. Actually, I am working with trying to understand symmetries and what we're really shooting for when training alpha asymmetry. Then I can build a screen which will do that in a similar way to Baehr, Rosenfeld & Baehr's method (unless that's much outdated in which case please tell me!) The alpha/beta ratio is therefore a separate issue, if I understand you correctly. Is there an appropriate reason to look at or try to interpret an alpha/beta ratio? If not, I won't worry about it! Jill From: braintrainer [mailto: braintrainer ] On Behalf Of Van DeusenSent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 11:11 AM To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Alpha /Beta ratios Jill, Actually this is not the alpha/beta ratio Suzanne is describing. It is the alpha F4 / alpha F3 or Beta F3 / Beta F4. These are symmetry ratios which measure whether the left or right prefrontal areas are dominant. We usually look at them with eyes closed, though you can do so with eyes open as well. As for 's question, I don't have the alpha / beta ratios on the assessment, since I don't really know of a good basis for a ratio. With eyes closed, in the front of the head, we want theta to be about 1.5 times beta, and we want alpha to be about even with theta (A/T ratio of 1), so presumable alpha/beta would be about the same as theta/beta, or around 1.5. In the back of the head, we want alpha/theta to be around 1.5 .. If theta / beta is also around 1.5, then alpha / beta should be around 2.25. Hope this is helpful. Pete On 1/4/07, Glacier Biofeedback < voyager@...> wrote: Dear Suzanne, Sometimes things must 'come up' in practice before they make much sense. Hence, the late response to your kind email to . When you say that the alpha/beta should be 1.1 but you don't specify a location, I'm somewhat confused. Do you mean that the alpha/beta ratio should be 1.1, and at what location (I'm assuming F3 or F4 or both)? With eyes closed or open? On task? Jill From: braintrainer [mailto: braintrainer ] On Behalf Of Suzanne DaySent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:30 AM To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Alpha /Beta ratios I have listened and learned a lot... it is my time to try to answer. According to Pete's notes from the workshop, FRONTAL Beta should be higher (10-15%) on the left and Alpha higher (10 to 15%) on the right. Alpha/Beta should be 1.1 Suzanne Hi Pete~ I know you don't have the Alpha /beta ratios listed on the assessment but I wondered if you know what those ratios should be. I heard someone say 2.0 but since its acceptable for theta/beta ratio to be as high as 2.0 I wondered if maybe that number was low. Thanks for any light, ~ --No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.7 /488 - Release Date: 10/19/2006 -- Van Deusen pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160 The Learning Curve, Inc. -- Van Deusen pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. -- Van Deusen pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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