Re: Can I be getting sick from gas stove?

[Guest guest]

Whatever you do make sure you have a working reliable CO detector installed in the home.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]

On Behalf Of CarolF

Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 12:26 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Can I be getting sick from gas stove?

I recently moved into a rental home that has a gas kitchen stove and I have been experiencing symptoms such as light-headedness, ringing in my head and tightness in my head, as well as fatigue. As a person suffering with chemical

sensitivities, I wonder if I can be so sensitive to the gas that it is making me sick. My elderly mom lives with me and exhibits no symptoms, but she's not chemically sensitive. From what I've read online, there are all kinds of gases mixed with the gas that

comes out of the burners when they're turned on, so it is very possible I may be unable to now tolerate gas stoves. Finally, is simply not using the gas stove for a week or so adequate testing to see if I'm reacting to the gas, or should I have the gas line

to the stove shut off while I do my experiment to see if not having any gas in the house makes me feel better.

Any knowledge you can share with me would be appreciated. Thanks.

Carol

[Guest guest]

Carol,

You may want to get it tested for carbon monoxide (CO) gas right

away. Your local Fire Dept is a good place to start. Be sure to

ask what levels in ppm they get (as opposed to "levels are ok". I'd

suggest they test it while the stove is turned off and turned on.

You may also want to have your local service company come out and

check it for CO and to see if it's burning properly. I'd suggest

doing this today. Don't be surprised if the FD asks you to get out

of the house and to wait for them outside just to be prudent and

cautious. Good luck!

-

Klane, M.S.Ed., CIH, CHMM, CET

Klane's Education Information Training Hub, LLC (KEITH)

491 Norridgewock Rd.

Fairfield, ME 04937-3116

P: 207-453-KEITH (5348)

jonathan@...

www.trainerman.com

Twitter: @ theCIH "Take a step in the right direction"

I recently moved into a rental home that has a gas

kitchen stove and I have been experiencing symptoms such

as light-headedness, ringing in my head and tightness in

my head, as well as fatigue. As a person suffering with

chemical sensitivities, I wonder if I can be so sensitive

to the gas that it is making me sick. My elderly mom lives

with me and exhibits no symptoms, but she's not chemically

sensitive. From what I've read online, there are all kinds

of gases mixed with the gas that comes out of the burners

when they're turned on, so it is very possible I may be

unable to now tolerate gas stoves. Finally, is simply not

using the gas stove for a week or so adequate testing to

see if I'm reacting to the gas, or should I have the gas

line to the stove shut off while I do my experiment to see

if not having any gas in the house makes me feel better.

Any knowledge you can share with me would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Carol

[Guest guest]

Carol: Is your stove an old-fashioned one with a permanently burning pilot light? Also, what kind of device do you use to heat your home? Some of the older gas furnaces use household interior air for combustion? This means that contamination of breathing air may be coming from your heater. I would guess that natural gas with mercaptan (safety odors added by the gas company) is less complex in chemical composition than the resulting combustion products generated by burning the gas. If you have a range hood with a high velocity exhaust fan (e.g. Allure by Broan), you can pump out a good portion of the burned gas. Did your former home have gas appliances? Do you have a gas clothes dryer? Norm Gauss From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of CarolFSent: Monday, November 28, 2011 9:26 AMTo: iequality Subject: Can I be getting sick from gas stove? I recently moved into a rental home that has a gas kitchen stove and I have been experiencing symptoms such as light-headedness, ringing in my head and tightness in my head, as well as fatigue. As a person suffering with chemical sensitivities, I wonder if I can be so sensitive to the gas that it is making me sick. My elderly mom lives with me and exhibits no symptoms, but she's not chemically sensitive. From what I've read online, there are all kinds of gases mixed with the gas that comes out of the burners when they're turned on, so it is very possible I may be unable to now tolerate gas stoves. Finally, is simply not using the gas stove for a week or so adequate testing to see if I'm reacting to the gas, or should I have the gas line to the stove shut off while I do my experiment to see if not having any gas in the house makes me feel better.Any knowledge you can share with me would be appreciated. Thanks.Carol

[Guest guest]

Carol:In answer to your question, Yes I would recommend shutting off the gas line to the stove, as this line might be leaking and causing your symptoms.Life Energy Associateswww.LifeEnergyAssoc.com20 Darton StreetConcord, MA 01742To: iequality Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 12:26:17 PMSubject: Can I be getting sick from gas stove?

I recently moved into a rental home that has a gas kitchen stove and I have been experiencing symptoms such as light-headedness, ringing in my head and tightness in my head, as well as fatigue. As a person suffering with chemical sensitivities, I wonder if I can be so sensitive to the gas that it is making me sick. My elderly mom lives with me and exhibits no symptoms, but she's not chemically sensitive. From what I've read online, there are all kinds of gases mixed with the gas that comes out of the burners when they're turned on, so it is very possible I may be unable to now tolerate gas stoves. Finally, is simply not using the gas stove for a week or so adequate testing to see if I'm reacting to the gas, or should I have the gas line to the stove shut off while I do my experiment to see if not having any gas in the house makes me feel better.

Any knowledge you can share with me would be appreciated. Thanks.

Carol

[Guest guest]

If you have a gas stove, you have gas plumbing in the house. Make sure, in

addition to other suggestions, that you check the plumbing for leaks of natural

gas. I got sick from that in my house..went unnoticed for a very long time.

You'd have your gas company check for leaks. A CO detector will not detect

natural gas.

>

> You may want to get it tested for carbon monoxide (CO) gas right away.

> Your local Fire Dept is a good place to start. Be sure to ask what

> levels in ppm they get (as opposed to " levels are ok " . I'd suggest they

> test it while the stove is turned off and turned on.

>

> You may also want to have your local service company come out and check

> it for CO and to see if it's burning properly. I'd suggest doing this

> today. Don't be surprised if the FD asks you to get out of the house

> and to wait for them outside just to be prudent and cautious. Good luck!

>

[Guest guest]

Be careful about the sensitivity of the leak detection, as a small leak can cause symptoms but be "below detection limits" if the analysis equipment is just looking at the Lower Exposure Limit for its minimum detectionn. Bearg Life Energy Associateswww.LifeEnergyAssoc.com20 Darton StreetConcord, MA 01742To: iequality Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 5:50:43 PMSubject: Re: Can I be getting sick from gas stove?

If you have a gas stove, you have gas plumbing in the house. Make sure, in addition to other suggestions, that you check the plumbing for leaks of natural gas. I got sick from that in my house..went unnoticed for a very long time. You'd have your gas company check for leaks. A CO detector will not detect natural gas.

>

> You may want to get it tested for carbon monoxide (CO) gas right away.

> Your local Fire Dept is a good place to start. Be sure to ask what

> levels in ppm they get (as opposed to "levels are ok". I'd suggest they

> test it while the stove is turned off and turned on.

>

> You may also want to have your local service company come out and check

> it for CO and to see if it's burning properly. I'd suggest doing this

> today. Don't be surprised if the FD asks you to get out of the house

> and to wait for them outside just to be prudent and cautious. Good luck!

>

[Guest guest]

means the LEL "Lower Explosive Limit", typically 3%-5% or 30,000 to 50,000 ppm.

Bud Offermann PE CIHIndoor Environmental Engineering1448 Pine Street, Suite 103San Francisco, CA 94109Office:Cell:Fax: E-mail: Offermann@...Web Site: http://www.IEE-SF.com

Be careful about the sensitivity of the leak detection, as a small leak can cause symptoms but be "below detection limits" if the analysis equipment is just looking at the Lower Exposure Limit for its minimum detectionn. Bearg Life Energy Associateswww.LifeEnergyAssoc.com20 Darton StreetConcord, MA 01742To: iequality Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 5:50:43 PMSubject: Re: Can I be getting sick from gas stove?

If you have a gas stove, you have gas plumbing in the house. Make sure, in addition to other suggestions, that you check the plumbing for leaks of natural gas. I got sick from that in my house..went unnoticed for a very long time. You'd have your gas company check for leaks. A CO detector will not detect natural gas.

>

> You may want to get it tested for carbon monoxide (CO) gas right away.

> Your local Fire Dept is a good place to start. Be sure to ask what

> levels in ppm they get (as opposed to "levels are ok". I'd suggest they

> test it while the stove is turned off and turned on.

>

> You may also want to have your local service company come out and check

> it for CO and to see if it's burning properly. I'd suggest doing this

> today. Don't be surprised if the FD asks you to get out of the house

> and to wait for them outside just to be prudent and cautious. Good luck!

>

[Guest guest]

,I remember investigating a gas leak and although the gas company could not detect the leak, my nose could. After having them return and place a shield around the pipe, their instrument was finally able to confirm the leak..... Many factors can impede detection. 

 

Be careful about the sensitivity of the leak detection, as a small leak can cause symptoms but be " below detection limits " if the 

analysis equipment is just looking at the Lower Exposure Limit for its minimum detectionn. Bearg Life Energy Associateswww.LifeEnergyAssoc.com

20 Darton StreetConcord, MA 01742

To: iequality Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 5:50:43 PMSubject: Re: Can I be getting sick from gas stove?

 

If you have a gas stove, you have gas plumbing in the house. Make sure, in addition to other suggestions, that you check the plumbing for leaks of natural gas. I got sick from that in my house..went unnoticed for a very long time. You'd have your gas company check for leaks. A CO detector will not detect natural gas.

>

> You may want to get it tested for carbon monoxide (CO) gas right away.

> Your local Fire Dept is a good place to start. Be sure to ask what

> levels in ppm they get (as opposed to " levels are ok " . I'd suggest they

> test it while the stove is turned off and turned on.

>

> You may also want to have your local service company come out and check

> it for CO and to see if it's burning properly. I'd suggest doing this

> today. Don't be surprised if the FD asks you to get out of the house

> and to wait for them outside just to be prudent and cautious. Good luck!

>

-- Respectfully submitted,Bob Hawley, CEICC, CIEC, CMC, CMCA, CSDS, CMRS, CETC, CSL (MA), ADI-II-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Environmental AirTechsIAQ Consulting/Investigations Dept. Southwick Massachusetts 01077email: Bob@... 

[Guest guest]

Don't under estimate the health hazards of chronic inhalation of natural gas

though! Reading says that 'no long term studies have been conducted on chronic

inhalation of natural gas'...you know what that means. Noone wants to know

because it's in almost everyones home or building (liability). However the

health hazards of inhaling " combustibles' is essentially that they can cause

damage to every organ of the body, the nervous system, and brain.

They are 'solvent's and solvents are 'degreaser's, they dissolve fats and your

brain is made of mainly of fat, your nerves are surrounded by mylein sheath

which is fat so essentially inhaling 'combustibles and solvents' you can do

damage by essentially dissolving brain matter, and nerve damage by damage to

mylein sheath. I did alot of reading on this.

Natural gas also has other contaminants in it. It's just pure natural gas and

mercaptan. I could only smell 'something' in my house off and on. It didn't

smell like rotten eggs, just smelled like something synthetic. I didn't

investigate because detection of odor was so brief now and then.

>

> I would guess that natural gas with mercaptan (safety odors added by the gas

company) is less complex in chemical composition than the resulting combustion

products generated by burning the gas.

[Guest guest]

Correction: I meant to say " it's *not* just pure natural gas and mercaptan " It

has additives that are dangerous also.

> >

> > I would guess that natural gas with mercaptan (safety odors added by the gas

company) is less complex in chemical composition than the resulting combustion

products generated by burning the gas.

>

[Guest guest]

Bob:Thanks for confirming my experience: The equipment the gas company typically uses (looking for proximity to the LEL) is not sensitive enough to detect concentrations that can still cause symptoms in sensitive individuals !!!Life Energy Associateswww.LifeEnergyAssoc.com20 Darton StreetConcord, MA 01742To: iequality Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 8:37:05 PMSubject: Re: Re: Can I be getting sick from gas stove?

,I remember investigating a gas leak and although the gas company could not detect the leak, my nose could. After having them return and place a shield around the pipe, their instrument was finally able to confirm the leak..... Many factors can impede detection.

Be careful about the sensitivity of the leak detection, as a small leak can cause symptoms but be "below detection limits" if the

analysis equipment is just looking at the Lower Exposure Limit for its minimum detectionn. Bearg Life Energy Associateswww.LifeEnergyAssoc.com

20 Darton StreetConcord, MA 01742

To: iequality Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 5:50:43 PMSubject: Re: Can I be getting sick from gas stove?

If you have a gas stove, you have gas plumbing in the house. Make sure, in addition to other suggestions, that you check the plumbing for leaks of natural gas. I got sick from that in my house..went unnoticed for a very long time. You'd have your gas company check for leaks. A CO detector will not detect natural gas.

>

> You may want to get it tested for carbon monoxide (CO) gas right away.

> Your local Fire Dept is a good place to start. Be sure to ask what

> levels in ppm they get (as opposed to "levels are ok". I'd suggest they

> test it while the stove is turned off and turned on.

>

> You may also want to have your local service company come out and check

> it for CO and to see if it's burning properly. I'd suggest doing this

> today. Don't be surprised if the FD asks you to get out of the house

> and to wait for them outside just to be prudent and cautious. Good luck!

>

-- Respectfully submitted,Bob Hawley, CEICC, CIEC, CMC, CMCA, CSDS, CMRS, CETC, CSL (MA), ADI-II-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Environmental AirTechsIAQ Consulting/Investigations Dept. Southwick Massachusetts 01077email: Bob@...

[Guest guest]

One of the most overlooked conditions with a gas stove is when the user puts aluminum foil on the grill and burner covers to keep them clean. The foil covers the air supply inlets and changes the burning characteristics of the flames. A properly adjusted natural gas flame should produce Water vapor and Carbon Dioxide with very little other combustion by products. In a flame that is oxygen deprived, or otherwise improperly adjusted, Carbon Monoxide along with her undesirable combustion by products are produced. When the flame is allowed to touch metal, i.e. "impinges" it creates the undesirable CO. So no tin foil-ever in a gas stove, and clean all the components to insure the flames have a proper air flow. Confirm the flames are well formed and not uneven or touching anything. In extreme cases negative ventilation pressure can influence the shape of the flames to change and drag improper combustion products to uncontrolled areas of the home. So it becomes important to review the location and capacities of the other depressurizing fans, and if they operate when the stove is being used. Older stoves with pilot lights should probably be replaced if you are highly sensitive to chemicals.

Natural gas has an odorizer added in very low concentrations that can be easily smelled by the average adult. The mercapton can smelled at levels far below the ignition concentration of the gas specificilly to help identify a natural gas leak. The gas supply connection at the gas meter is dropped down to about 3/4 pound or less, so a leaks in the gas pipe system is unlikely unless there is mechanical damage somewhere in the system. The gas company will check for leaks if asked, but if you are really serious, then turn off the gas and pressurize the system. It should hold 15 pounds of pressure for 10 minutes or so.

Stoves are used in virtually every home in the country, If there were chronic problems with stoves then it would apparent. It is possible for a stove to be a problem but is a low probability. Where are all the bodies, so to speak...?

I hope this helps.

Brad Deal

ICC Mechanical Inspector

Re: Can I be getting sick from gas stove?

Don't under estimate the health hazards of chronic inhalation of natural gas though! Reading says that 'no long term studies have been conducted on chronic inhalation of natural gas'...you know what that means. Noone wants to know because it's in almost everyones home or building (liability). However the health hazards of inhaling "combustibles' is essentially that they can cause damage to every organ of the body, the nervous system, and brain.

They are 'solvent's and solvents are 'degreaser's, they dissolve fats and your brain is made of mainly of fat, your nerves are surrounded by mylein sheath which is fat so essentially inhaling 'combustibles and solvents' you can do damage by essentially dissolving brain matter, and nerve damage by damage to mylein sheath. I did alot of reading on this.

Natural gas also has other contaminants in it. It's just pure natural gas and mercaptan. I could only smell 'something' in my house off and on. It didn't smell like rotten eggs, just smelled like something synthetic. I didn't investigate because detection of odor was so brief now and then.

>

> I would guess that natural gas with mercaptan (safety odors added by the gas company) is less complex in chemical composition than the resulting combustion products generated by burning the gas.

[Guest guest]



Bob et al

My experience with gas companies is that some of them go out with sensors that can prove that there is no problem; they have the more sensitive equipment and a few technicians who know how to use it, but they are not convinced that exposure to natural gas is a problem for anyone, since their staff is frequently exposed and those who stay in the business do not seem to have problems. Remember that the gas utilities/companies are bureaucratic and do not want to act if they don't have to.

You have to measure at small ppm levels to find leaks that bother sanative people. The population in general includes both those that are quite insensitive to natural gas mixtures and some that are extremely sensitive, as well as the majority who are not all that bothered. We are not a species that reacts at only one level.

Make sure that you get a technician who is trained in detecting small leaks (using local bagged areas sure helps) and has a high sensitivity sensor. It is likely that all utilities have the people and the sensors but they will not use them unless forced to do so. When I pushed I got really competent people and good instrumentation; they were a bit embarrassed by the treatment my clients and I got, but were living with it.

Jim H. White SSC

Re: Can I be getting sick from gas stove?

If you have a gas stove, you have gas plumbing in the house. Make sure, in addition to other suggestions, that you check the plumbing for leaks of natural gas. I got sick from that in my house..went unnoticed for a very long time. You'd have your gas company check for leaks. A CO detector will not detect natural gas. >> You may want to get it tested for carbon monoxide (CO) gas right away. > Your local Fire Dept is a good place to start. Be sure to ask what > levels in ppm they get (as opposed to "levels are ok". I'd suggest they > test it while the stove is turned off and turned on.> > You may also want to have your local service company come out and check > it for CO and to see if it's burning properly. I'd suggest doing this > today. Don't be surprised if the FD asks you to get out of the house > and to wait for them outside just to be prudent and cautious. Good luck!>

-- Respectfully submitted,Bob Hawley, CEICC, CIEC, CMC, CMCA, CSDS, CMRS, CETC, CSL (MA), ADI-II-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Environmental AirTechsIAQ Consulting/Investigations Dept. Southwick Massachusetts 01077email: Bob@...

[Guest guest]

Brad, You bring up some very good points regarding use of gas ovens and stoves and potential for carbon monoxide production. With regards to natural gas leaks, though, it has been my experience that small gas leaks are not at all unusual and are very common in homes where peopleare complaining of symptoms such as headache, nausea, dizziness, and diminished ability to concentrate. Since natural gas (mostly methane) is regarded as “non-toxicâ€, there is little concern from gas utility companies (and others) regarding these small leaks.In fact, gas utility companies can consider up to 2 cubic feet per hour leakage in existing construction to be acceptable. Because they are not concerned with small leaks, for indoor use they typically only use meters designed to look for concentrations approachingexplosive levels – a thousand times above a level I would consider a concern. A shut in test would be simpler than doing a pressure test on a system, but it may be better to leave either of these tests to a professional. Keep in mind,too, that for either test the gas may be turned off to each appliance, so the gas piping system in the building is checked, but not the appliance(s). One of the most common locations for a gas leak is at the brass nut where the aluminum pilot tube is connectedto the appliance gas control valve. On gas ovens/stoves I suspect that over time the heating and cooling cycles all the gas tubing endures can result in a small leak at nearly any threaded connection. The bodies are there, it’s just that they often have a real problem getting anyone to listen to them or to take them seriously. Curtis Curtis Redington, RS, HHSEnvironmental Quality SpecialistCity of Wichita Office of Environmental Health From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]On Behalf Of homeinspect2020@...Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 8:32 AMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Re: Can I be getting sick from gas stove? One of the most overlooked conditions with a gas stove is when the user puts aluminum foil on the grill and burner covers to keep them clean. The foil coversthe air supply inlets and changes the burning characteristics of the flames. A properly adjusted natural gas flame should produce Water vapor and Carbon Dioxide with very little other combustion by products. In a flame that is oxygen deprived, or otherwiseimproperly adjusted, Carbon Monoxide along with her undesirable combustion by products are produced. When the flame is allowed to touch metal, i.e. " impinges " it creates the undesirable CO. So no tin foil-ever in a gas stove, and clean all the componentsto insure the flames have a proper air flow. Confirm the flames are well formed and not uneven or touching anything. In extreme cases negative ventilation pressure can influence the shape of the flames to change and drag improper combustion products to uncontrolledareas of t he home. So it becomes important to review the location and capacities of the other depressurizing fans, and if they operate when the stove is being used. Older stoves with pilot lights should probably be replaced if you are highly sensitive tochemicals. Natural gas has an odorizer added in very low concentrations that can be easily smelled by the average adult. The mercapton can smelled at levels far below theignition concentration of the gas specificilly to help identify a natural gas leak. The gas supply connection at the gas meter is dropped down to about 3/4 pound or less, so a leaks in the gas pipe system is unlikely unless there is mechanical damage somewherein the system. The gas company will check for leaks if asked, but if you are really serious, then turn off the gas and pressurize the system. It should hold 15 pounds of pressure for 10 minutes or so. Stoves are used in virtually every home in the country, If there were chronic problems with stoves then it would apparent. It is possible for a stove to be aproblem but is a low probability. Where are all the bodies, so to speak...? I hope this helps. Brad DealICC Mechanical Inspector Re: Can I be getting sick from gas stove? Don't under estimate the health hazards of chronic inhalation of natural gas though! Reading says that 'no long term studies havebeen conducted on chronic inhalation of natural gas'...you know what that means. Noone wants to know because it's in almost everyones home or building (liability). However the health hazards of inhaling " combustibles' is essentially that they can cause damageto every organ of the body, the nervous system, and brain. They are 'solvent's and solvents are 'degreaser's, they dissolve fats and your brain is made of mainly of fat, your nerves are surrounded by mylein sheath which is fat so essentially inhaling 'combustibles and solvents' you can do damage by essentially dissolvingbrain matter, and nerve damage by damage to mylein sheath. I did alot of reading on this.Natural gas also has other contaminants in it. It's just pure natural gas and mercaptan. I could only smell 'something' in my house off and on. It didn't smell like rotten eggs, just smelled like something synthetic. I didn't investigate because detection ofodor was so brief now and then. > > I would guess that natural gas with mercaptan (safety odors added by the gas company) is less complex in chemical composition than the resulting combustion products generated by burning the gas.

[Guest guest]

Curtis,

These are all good points, thanks for your input. When somebody is having a health related issue that is difficult to diagnose, it become problematic. Start with the easy stuff and then go to the more difficult scenarios until the problem is identified. It is difficult to speak with clarity about a condition when we have very little first hand knowledge. Usually, when we start talking about specific components it would indicate that all the more likely components have already been evaluated. I would be far more concerned with the condition of the heating system or the water heater then the stove. I agree that a stove can make you sick but there is a greater probability that something else is the cause.

I went to a Pacific Gas and Electric seminar some time back regarding gas appliances. The odorizer they place in gas is in incredibly small amounts, something like parts per billion, but it can still be smelled by the average person. The reason they use mercapton is because it is so pungent and easy to smell at incredibly low levels. The reason was two fold. First to protect from fire and second to insure the gas company did not expose the population to unnecessary gas poisoning. I wonder if all the utility companies use the same methods at the same levels?

When you are dealing with a specialized group people who are sensitive to levels of chemicals that are well below the threshold of delectability of the general population, then special methods of detections is required. At that point I must defer to the guys who specialize in those fields. From what I read on this board there must be more chemically sensitive people then is generally stated. The specialists on this board only deal with this sub set of people so they generally may come to believe that they are part of the average, where, from my point of view they are part of the fringe.

A lot of the circular arguments we encounter are because we are all taking about different aspects of the same condition. Almost the same, but just enough different to cause confusion.

To properly test a gas line all the valves must be removed and a cap put over the iron pipe. The valves are not rated for higher pressures and may leak along with the valves inside the appliance. The flex connectors are especially suspect because the older ones are suspectable to deterioration over time. The solder in the connectors will react with the gas and fail. There has been a recall issued in this regard but I cannot find it just now. Here is a good web site that discusses gas line testing and detection tubes.

http://www.inspectapedia.com/plumbing/gasfaults10.htm

http://www.inspectapedia.com/hazmat/GasTools.htm

I was unaware that up to 2 cubic feet of gas was acceptable loss in some areas. Out here in California, I doubt if any loss inside a home is acceptable due the litigious nature of California. I will check this out.

I am not sure what a "shut in test" is, but it sounds like closing up the doors and windows to allow the gas to collect inside the home so it can be detected. This would be a whole lot easier then a pressure test, but a pressure test would tell us if there was a leak going into a wall cavity, or a crawlspace that may appear in the living spaces when the pressurizations are right. So no matter what someone proposes, there is always a different way to do the same thing, kinda like arguing with my daughter...

It must be really difficult for those people who are truly chemically sensitive. The world is full of man made chemicals that are present in everything. Low level chemical problems are difficult to deal with and will not doubt become more important in the future. I guess the bodies are there, you just have to watch where you step...

Is it too soon to say "Merry Christmas!"

Brad Deal

Re: Can I be getting sick from gas stove?

Don't under estimate the health hazards of chronic inhalation of natural gas though! Reading says that 'no long term studies have been conducted on chronic inhalation of natural gas'...you know what that means. Noone wants to know because it's in almost everyones home or building (liability). However the health hazards of inhaling "combustibles' is essentially that they can cause damage to every organ of the body, the nervous system, and brain.

They are 'solvent's and solvents are 'degreaser's, they dissolve fats and your brain is made of mainly of fat, your nerves are surrounded by mylein sheath which is fat so essentially inhaling 'combustibles and solvents' you can do damage by essentially dissolving brain matter, and nerve damage by damage to mylein sheath. I did alot of reading on this.

Natural gas also has other contaminants in it. It's just pure natural gas and mercaptan. I could only smell 'something' in my house off and on. It didn't smell like rotten eggs, just smelled like something synthetic. I didn't investigate because detection of odor was so brief now and then.

>

> I would guess that natural gas with mercaptan (safety odors added by the gas company) is less complex in chemical composition than the resulting combustion products generated by burning the gas.

[Guest guest]

There are chemically sensitive people who simply cannot be around natural gas

burning appliances.

Do you have a history of being around gas stoves successfully, or have you

always had electric? If you have been around gas successfully in the past, then

you are getting very good advice here: look for CO, gas leak, also perhaps a

burner which is poorly adjusted or has crud built up inside so is not burning

correctly. If you have never been around gas successfully, it is possible that

you are chemically sensitive to normal combustion products in the air and cannot

use that stove (or even have its pilot lit if there is one).

The anecdotes I have heard/read about natural gas sensitivity, as well as

observations of family members, lead me to think that the mechanism for this

sensitivity may be very different from what has been assumed in the past based

on ideal combustion (methane + oxygen --> CO2 + water). Whether it's the normal

level of CO a gas stove gives off (think 1 - 10 ppm in the vicinity of the stove

when operating, below what it's legal for a home CO detector to report or

alarm), partially burnt hydrocarbons, normal contaminants from the gas, or some

corrosion product of the gas pipes or burner -- or something else -- who knows?

-steve

>

> I recently moved into a rental home that has a gas kitchen stove and I have

been experiencing symptoms such as light-headedness, ringing in my head and

tightness in my head, as well as fatigue. As a person suffering with chemical

sensitivities, I wonder if I can be so sensitive to the gas that it is making me

sick. My elderly mom lives with me and exhibits no symptoms, but she's not

chemically sensitive. From what I've read online, there are all kinds of gases

mixed with the gas that comes out of the burners when they're turned on, so it

is very possible I may be unable to now tolerate gas stoves. Finally, is simply

not using the gas stove for a week or so adequate testing to see if I'm reacting

to the gas, or should I have the gas line to the stove shut off while I do my

experiment to see if not having any gas in the house makes me feel better.

>

> Any knowledge you can share with me would be appreciated. Thanks.

>

> Carol

>

[Guest guest]

Brad, A shut in test is where all the gas appliances are turned off, a mark is made on the gas meter to the home, and a certain period of time is allowed to elapseto see if there is any movement of the meter flow gauges. Similar to a water leak test for a house by shutting off all water use and then checking the water meter for flow. Any flow means there is a leak somewhere. To find a small gas leak requires a 30 minuteor longer shut in time. Most gas company technicians I have talked to will only do a shut in for 10 to 15 minutes – because the small amount of leakage previously described is considered acceptable in existing construction. While new construction requiresa passing pressure test, there is absolutely no guarantee the system will stay that tight over time or with the addition of appliances. The symptoms described below are not experienced only by people that would be described as “chemically sensitive.†I have found it interesting how many gasutility company technicians have told me they experience headache from exposure to natural gas. Most of the time, the people I have seen were fine when not exposed to natural gas and recovered with no additional complaints after the gas leak was found andfixed. When the primary complaint is headache (along with nausea, dizziness, and diminished ability to concentrate as exposure increases), it is far more common for there to be a natural gas leak than for there to be a CO exposure. Mercaptan is added to natural gas (and propane) to give some warning of leakage that could cause fire/explosion or displacement of oxygen. Since methane is“non-toxicâ€, these are the only two conditions commonly of concern. The human nose can smell mercaptan compounds at very low concentrations, so that limits how much mercaptan needs to be added and still provide good warning properties of leaks that would commonlybe considered hazardous. Even with large leaks, however, there are conditions that can eliminate the odor (such as an underground leak, particularly in soil with a high iron content – which can come from rusty iron gas pipe). Also, buildings, like people,develop their own unique scent. Some buildings may have other scents that mask the mercaptan odor – particularly in situations where it is a small gas leak. The problem is, gas leaks often go unrecognized because too few investigators are looking for low level concentrations (down to about 5 ppm TVOCs measuredas methane in my experience). When the vast majority of people looking for gas leaks are using equipment that has a lower detection of 5,000 ppm (0.5 %), it supports the popular misconceptions that gas leaks are not common and not a concern. The leaks arethere, the investigators just are not finding them. When they don’t find the leaks, it is easy to mistakenly assume that the reported symptoms are caused by something else – or the person is just “crazyâ€, “chemically sensitiveâ€, etc. Thanks for the opportunity to “compare notes†from our experiences. Curtis From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]On Behalf Of homeinspect2020@...Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 3:48 PMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Re: Can I be getting sick from gas stove? Curtis, These are all good points, thanks for your input. When somebody is having a health related issue that is difficult to diagnose, it become problematic. Startwith the easy stuff and then go to the more difficult scenarios until the problem is identified. It is difficult to speak with clarity about a condition when we have very little first hand knowledge. Usually, when we start talking about specific componentsit would indicate that all the more likely components have already been evaluated. I would be far more concerned with the condition of the heating system or the water heater then the stove. I agree that a stove can make you sick but there is a greater probabilitythat something else is the cause. I went to a Pacific Gas and Electric seminar some time back regarding gas appliances. The odorizer they place in gas is in incredibly small amounts, somethinglike parts per billion, but it can still be smelled by the average person. The reason they use mercapton is because it is so pungent and easy to smell at incredibly low levels. The reason was two fold. First to protect from fire and second to insure thegas company did not expose the population to unnecessary gas poisoning. I wonder if all the utility companies use the same methods at the same levels? When you are dealing with a specialized group people who are sensitive to levels of chemicals that are well below the threshold of delectability of the generalpopulation, then special methods of detections is required. At that point I must defer to the guys who specialize in those fields. From what I read on this board there must be more chemically sensitive people then is generally stated. The specialists onthis board only deal with this sub set of people so they generally may come to believe that they are part of the average, where, from my point of view they are part of the fringe. A lot of the circular arguments we encounter are because we are all taking about different aspects of the same condition. Almost the same, but just enough differentto cause confusion. To properly test a gas line all the valves must be removed and a cap put over the iron pipe. The valves are not rated for higher pressures and may leak alongwith the valves inside the appliance. The flex connectors are especially suspect because the older ones are suspectable to deterioration over time. The solder in the connectors will react with the gas and fail. There has been a recall issued in this regardbut I cannot find it just now. Here is a good web site that discusses gas line testing and detection tubes. http://www.inspectapedia.com/plumbing/gasfaults10.htm http://www.inspectapedia.com/hazmat/GasTools.htm I was unaware that up to 2 cubic feet of gas was acceptable loss in some areas. Out here in California, I doubt if any loss inside a home is acceptable due the litigious nature of California. I will check this out. I am not sure what a " shut in test " is, but it sounds like closing up the doors and windows to allow the gas to collect inside the home so it can be detected. This would be a whole lot easier then a pressure test, but a pressure test would tell us if there was a leak going into a wall cavity, or a crawlspace that may appear in the living spaces when the pressurizations are right. So no matter what someone proposes,there is always a different way to do the same thing, kinda like arguing with my daughter... It must be really difficult for those people who are truly chemically sensitive. The world is full of man made chemicals that are present in everything. Lowlevel chemical problems are difficult to deal with and will not doubt become more important in the future. I guess the bodies are there, you just have to watch where you step... Is it too soon to say " Merry Christmas! " Brad Deal Re: Can I be getting sick from gas stove? Don't under estimate the health hazards of chronic inhalation of natural gas though! Reading says that 'no long term studies have been conducted on chronic inhalationof natural gas'...you know what that means. Noone wants to know because it's in almost everyones home or building (liability). However the health hazards of inhaling " combustibles' is essentially that they can cause damage to every organ of the body, the nervoussystem, and brain. They are 'solvent's and solvents are 'degreaser's, they dissolve fats and your brain is made of mainly of fat, your nerves are surrounded by mylein sheath which is fat so essentially inhaling 'combustibles and solvents' you can do damage by essentially dissolvingbrain matter, and nerve damage by damage to mylein sheath. I did alot of reading on this.Natural gas also has other contaminants in it. It's just pure natural gas and mercaptan. I could only smell 'something' in my house off and on. It didn't smell like rotten eggs, just smelled like something synthetic. I didn't investigate because detection ofodor was so brief now and then. > > I would guess that natural gas with mercaptan (safety odors added by the gas company) is less complex in chemical composition than the resulting combustion products generated by burning the gas.

[Guest guest]

Where are the bodies...it doesn't nec cause death. There's plenty of illness

though in this country.

I don't have a gas stove but gas water heater and furnace just in case that was

subject.

There have been multiple leaks here. When I first came to stay here and take

care of an aunt that was ill, there were six places gas was leaking. It can

leak at any joint in the pipes due to shifting of house/foundation. Three years

later someone working here smelled gas and leak was found. That was 6 years ago

and now energy audit found sizeable leak that gas company shut off all gas to

the house. How come so many? Gas main comes in to house at an area of

foundation that is subject to constant slight shifts due to cinder block break

down in an area that cannot be reached to fix properly from the outside. We've

done what we can on the outside and inside now.

I have inquired to gas company to move location where gas comes in to house but

due to placement of windows in house, they cannot, so I have a natural gas

detector now and also one you hold, like the one the gas company used to detect

since three times in 15 years is a lot. There has been nothing wrong w water

heater or furnace.

>

less, so a leaks in the gas pipe system is unlikely unless there is mechanical

damage somewhere in the system. The gas company will check for leaks if asked,

but if you are really serious, then turn off the gas and pressurize the system.

It should hold 15 pounds of pressure for 10 minutes or so.

>

> Stoves are used in virtually every home in the country, If there were chronic

problems with stoves then it would apparent. It is possible for a stove to be a

problem but is a low probability. Where are all the bodies, so to speak...?

>

> I hope this helps.

>

> Brad Deal

> ICC Mechanical Inspector

>

> Re: Can I be getting sick from gas stove?

> >

> Don't under estimate the health hazards of chronic inhalation of natural gas

though!

[Guest guest]

My experience with occupant health complaints from small gas leaks is similar to the health complaints Curtis described. I would add that the sulfur compounds from sewer gas leaks can cause similar health complaints.

The testing I would recommend that a sensitive person do when the stove is the suspected source of a triggering exposure is:

1. Shut off the gas cock at the stove (or at the meter to rule out leaks in gas piping) and see if the symptoms occur.

If symptoms do not occur when standing in front of the stove and sniffing, it is likely to be related to gas from the stove and not something else in the kitchen.

2. Turn on the gas but do not light the burner (if your stove has a pilot). In any case, expose yourself to the unburned gas coming from the pipe. If you react to the gas, or additives or contaminants in the gas, go electric.

3. If you do not react to the gas from the pipe, light the stove and see if you react to the combustion products. If you do, go electric. A range hood exhaust will not entirely prevent exposure if you are the one cooking.

Steve Temes

Re: Can I be getting sick from gas stove?

Don't under estimate the health hazards of chronic inhalation of natural gas though! Reading says that 'no long term studies have been conducted on chronic inhalation of natural gas'...you know what that means. Noone wants to know because it's in almost everyones home or building (liability). However the health hazards of inhaling "combustibles' is essentially that they can cause damage to every organ of the body, the nervous system, and brain.

They are 'solvent's and solvents are 'degreaser's, they dissolve fats and your brain is made of mainly of fat, your nerves are surrounded by mylein sheath which is fat so essentially inhaling 'combustibles and solvents' you can do damage by essentially dissolving brain matter, and nerve damage by damage to mylein sheath. I did alot of reading on this.

Natural gas also has other contaminants in it. It's just pure natural gas and mercaptan. I could only smell 'something' in my house off and on. It didn't smell like rotten eggs, just smelled like something synthetic. I didn't investigate because detection of odor was so brief now and then.

>

> I would guess that natural gas with mercaptan (safety odors added by the gas company) is less complex in chemical composition than the resulting combustion products generated by burning the gas.