RE: Digest 1b. Temes on quasi-TLV comments

[Guest guest]

Tony:

You wrote: "Go ask a doctor how the basis for diagnoses are determined or set."

My resonse: Doctors use medical diagnostic testing to make medical diagnoses. They do not use environmental testing.

You are a safety engineer pretending to be some sort of health engineer. You can estimate exposure. You cannot conclude causation of symptoms.

Regarding: "If you have good data, you can make a probability statement - is it likely,

unlikely with X amount of scientific certainty."

Response: You cannot assign probability to individual hypersensitivities. If you are dealing with causation of actual symptoms, and not just "exposure compliance" issues, TLVs are irrelevant. You need to investigate the cause of symptoms, not test the air for comparison with TLVs. You evidently have trouble understanding this distinction.

You're right, I don't have to worry about ethics violations for misuse of TLVs. I don't use them for investigations of health effects.

Steve Temes

Digest 1b. Temes on quasi-TLV comments

Steve:

1. regarding:

" tox and epi data are incomplete and do not apply to individuals."

Response:

Now that I've stopped laughing.

a. Go ask a doctor how the basis for diagnoses are determined or set.

b. Please go back to school and get a better education if you believe

this fallacy above; because there would be a lot less reason to do epi and

tox work. Note: Epi includes singular (individual) case studies and case

reports, but if you had a better education, you'd already know that.

2. Regarding:

" that you can demonstrate or rule out causation of illness by air sampling"

Response:

Please show me where I have specifically said that in this thread about air

sampling?

3. Regarding:

" that you can determine with air sampling whether an environment has not

been, or will not be, the cause of symptoms or illness in actual occupants"

Response:

If you have good data, you can make a probability statement - is it likely,

unlikely with X amount of scientific certainty.

4. Regarding:

"Isn't that pretty much what ACGIH, itself, cautions about the use of its

own TLVs with regard to determining causation of illness?"

Response:

Yes, they do because people use the number without reading and understanding

the limitations, assumptions, and proper use of the supporting data.

Q: How many sets of TLV documentation have you read Steve?

5. Regarding:

"And wouldn't improper use of TLVs by a CIH be a violation of the ABIH Code

of Ethics?"

Response:

Yes, it would Steve. But you don't have to worry about understanding that

part since you're not a CIH.

Which is probably a good thing for those who are CIHs.

Tony

.......................................................................

"Tony" Havics, CHMM, CIH, PE

pH2, LLC

5250 E US 36, Suite 830 Avon

IN 46123

www.ph2llc.com

off

fax

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90% of Risk Management is knowing where to place the decimal point...any

consultant can give you the other 10%(SM)

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[Guest guest]

, I was disappointed in the tone of your email. It is not that I disagree with your position, but I think you could be more convincing by sticking to the science and eliminating the castigating remarks. I know that you understand the issues, just convey them in a professional manner. Don’t stoop to a level that I have seen other professionals fall into when they are relating an impassioned opinion to someone who disagrees with them. dj From: Havics Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 6:56 PMTo: iequality Subject: Digest 1b. Temes on quasi-TLV comments Steve:1. regarding: " tox and epi data are incomplete and do not apply to individuals. " Response:Now that I've stopped laughing.a. Go ask a doctor how the basis for diagnoses are determined or set.b. Please go back to school and get a better education if you believethis fallacy above; because there would be a lot less reason to do epi andtox work. Note: Epi includes singular (individual) case studies and casereports, but if you had a better education, you'd already know that.2. Regarding: " that you can demonstrate or rule out causation of illness by air sampling " Response:Please show me where I have specifically said that in this thread about airsampling?3. Regarding: " that you can determine with air sampling whether an environment has notbeen, or will not be, the cause of symptoms or illness in actual occupants " Response:If you have good data, you can make a probability statement - is it likely,unlikely with X amount of scientific certainty.4. Regarding: " Isn't that pretty much what ACGIH, itself, cautions about the use of itsown TLVs with regard to determining causation of illness? " Response:Yes, they do because people use the number without reading and understandingthe limitations, assumptions, and proper use of the supporting data.Q: How many sets of TLV documentation have you read Steve?5. Regarding: " And wouldn't improper use of TLVs by a CIH be a violation of the ABIH Codeof Ethics? " Response:Yes, it would Steve. But you don't have to worry about understanding thatpart since you're not a CIH. Which is probably a good thing for those who are CIHs.Tony...................................................................... " Tony " Havics, CHMM, CIH, PE pH2, LLC 5250 E US 36, Suite 830 AvonIN 46123 www.ph2llc.com(317) 718-7020 off fax cell90% of Risk Management is knowing where to place the decimal point...anyconsultant can give you the other 10%(SM)This message is from pH2. This message and any attachments may containlegally privileged or confidential information, and are intended only forthe individual or entity identified above as the addressee. If you are notthe addressee, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, youare not authorized to read, copy, or distribute this message and anyattachments, and we ask that you please delete this message and attachments(including all copies) and notify the sender by return e-mail or by phone at. Delivery of this message and any attachments to any personother than the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waiveconfidentiality or a privilege. All personal messages express views only ofthe sender, which are not to be attributed to pH2 and may not be copied ordistributed without this statement.