Guest guest Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 Dear Andy, You said: " In the absence of either object or observer, *nothing* exists. " This brought some thoughts to me. 1. In the absence of the observer, does the object exist? *****No. 2. Who or what is this observer? *****God, in phenomenal form, manifest as an apparent entity. This observer has as much " reality " as the characters in your last-night's sleeping dream. But, like them, it is convinced it is " real. " :-))) As I said in several previous posts, it is a *very* convincing illusion (else it wouldn't work as well as it does). 3. " Nothing exists " = No thing exists. In other words, everything exists but no thing in particular exists. The space that separtes individual things does not exist. *****All that is, is God. God is beyond classification as any particular thing/no-thing and properly can't even be spoken about. (The Tao that can be spoken of is not the Tao.) Whilst in the dream, as in your last-night's sleeping dream, there was separation of characters and there seemed to be things, objects populating the landscape. Feelings happened. Events occurred. Results accumulated. And then, upon waking? Where did it all go? " Oh...it was only a dream, " you answer. It is more than that: you created all the objects, people, feelings, events, results that " happened " in your last-night's dream. There were separate and yet...not separate, arising from a single Source: You. Is it any different in your today's-waking dream? ;-))))) Pondering such things is, for me, fun, and also a distraction from the Truth. *****To assert that suggests that you know what is the Truth. Perhaps, Steve, the pondering is also as aspect of the Truth? In my worldview, ALL that happens is the Truth, is sacred, is God. The " Truth " is...whatever is, and so it includes everything and excludes nothing. In other words, it is nothing special. It is everyday life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 > > Dear Andy, > > You said: " In the absence of either object or observer, *nothing* > exists. " > > This brought some thoughts to me. > > 1. In the absence of the observer, does the object exist? > > *****No. SD: I would agree with you on this one. > > > 2. Who or what is this observer? > > *****God, in phenomenal form, manifest as an apparent entity. This > observer has as much " reality " as the characters in your last- night's > sleeping dream. But, like them, it is convinced it is " real. " :- ))) > As I said in several previous posts, it is a *very* convincing > illusion (else it wouldn't work as well as it does). > SD: Your description of the illusion matches mine -- The illusion has to be a good one in order to work; however, my question of Who or what is this observer was not referring to the " apparent entity " but the observer behind the illusion that can be aware of an " apparent entity " . > 3. " Nothing exists " = No thing exists. In other words, everything > exists but no thing in particular exists. The space that separtes > individual things does not exist. > > > *****All that is, is God. God is beyond classification as any > particular thing/no-thing and properly can't even be spoken about. > (The Tao that can be spoken of is not the Tao.) Whilst in the dream, > as in your last-night's sleeping dream, there was separation of > characters and there seemed to be things, objects populating the > landscape. Feelings happened. Events occurred. Results > accumulated. And then, upon waking? Where did it all go? " Oh...it > was only a dream, " you answer. It is more than that: you created all > the objects, people, feelings, events, results that " happened " in > your last-night's dream. There were separate and yet...not separate, > arising from a single Source: You. Is it any different in your > today's-waking dream? ;-))))) > SD: No different. I agree with you here. My definition of God has been " God is everything thing in general and nothing in particular. " > > Pondering such things is, for me, fun, and also a distraction from > the Truth. > > > *****To assert that suggests that you know what is the Truth. > Perhaps, Steve, the pondering is also as aspect of the Truth? In my > worldview, ALL that happens is the Truth, is sacred, is God. > The " Truth " is...whatever is, and so it includes everything and > excludes nothing. In other words, it is nothing special. It is > everyday life. SD: Andy said: " To assert that suggests that you know what is the Truth. " Andy, I can see how you would draw that conclusion from what I posted; however, it was not my meaning. Our worldviews differ a little in some areas; which is as it should be. In my worldview, the illusion is not God. For me, the illusion takes place within God. For me, the illusion is an illusion, nothing more or nothing less. For me, night/day dreams are like the illusion and once I realise that they were a dream, they cease to have any realness for me. My worldview includes the potential for the One that appears as many in the illusion will one day awaken from their dream and be have a good laugh about it all. The main thing for me is that I am more and more understanding that I can not know anything and that seems to be a very happy place to be. I get the feeling from your posts that you feel that you do know things that the rest of us do not? I can only turn that one around and understand that I think I know things that others do not. :-) Blessings, Steve D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 > > --- In Loving-what-is , " SteveDaily " <lafdaily@a...> 2. Who or what is this observer? *****God, in phenomenal form, manifest as an apparent entity. This observer has as much " reality " as the characters in your last- night's sleeping dream. But, like them, it is convinced it is " real. " :-))) As I said in several previous posts, it is a *very* convincing illusion (else it wouldn't work as well as it does). SD: Your description of the illusion matches mine -- The illusion has to be a good one in order to work; however, my question of Who or what is this observer was not referring to the " apparent entity " but the observer behind the illusion that can be aware of an " apparent entity " . [Now that communication is more clear.....you seem to be asking about the Ultimate Source of all, That from which the apparent entity arises. So I would say God or Consciousness is the observer behind the illusion, also the creator of the illusion. Kind of like 'stealing' from yourself by unconsciously taking some money out of your left front pocket (where you normally keep it) and putting it in the your right front pocket. Later, having forgotten, you reach in to get some money from your front left pocket and...it's not there! This can lead to all kinds of thoughts and possibly much " drama. " :-)))] SD: Andy said: " To assert that suggests that you know what is the Truth. " Andy, I can see how you would draw that conclusion from what I posted; however, it was not my meaning. [i apologize. Sometimes communication is not what we wish it would be.] Our worldviews differ a little in some areas; which is as it should be. [Yes. Variety: the spice of life!] In my worldview, the illusion is not God. For me, the illusion takes place within God. [Again, perhaps, miscommunication, or, as Led Zeppelin wrote years ago: " Communication Breakdown. " I fully agree with your statements above. I didn't meant to imply that the illusion was God: just that the illusion arises from or " out of " God. As does everything.] For me, the illusion is an illusion, nothing more or nothing less. For me, night/day dreams are like the illusion and once I realise that they were a dream, they cease to have any realness for me. [For me, at this moment, the waking daydream seems very, very real and I observe this bodymind organism reacting/responding to it AS IF it were real. Yet, throughout it all, there is this feeling, this subterranean undercurrent of DISbelief in the whole Drama. Kind of one foot in and one foot out, and not from any lack on my part. It is just where It has brought me, at this moment.] My worldview includes the potential for the One that appears as many in the illusion will one day awaken from their dream and be have a good laugh about it all. [Yes, that is certain one possibility.] The main thing for me is that I am more and more understanding that I can not know anything and that seems to be a very happy place to be. [Oh, peshaw! You don't know anything? C'mon now man, get real. You " know " stuff, or, at least assert that there is 'knowing' in the presence of Steve Daily. Otherwise you'd find yourself repeatedly sticking your hand in the pretty blue-red flames just to see what they feel like. Pluging your finger into the holes in the wall just to see what's in there (and getting a nasty shock each time!). There *is* knowing in the form of " muscle " memory as well, or else each time you got in a car you'd need to relearn all those skills which you now KNOW. ;-))) However, about the stuff we're babbling here, yes, I agree, we can't know the validity of any of it. All we know are the thoughts and if there is a strong enough pull, we believe them. It is my sense that " we " are not in charge of any of it.] I get the feeling from your posts that you feel that you do know things that the rest of us do not? I can only turn that one around and understand that I think I know things that others do not. :-) [sure, it is my assertion that I know things that others don't and vice versa. So watt? :-)) Others know things that I don't. It is from that knowing - not-knowing complex that all the hoopla arises: ex: he said, she said, or " It's THIS way, " and " No, IDIOT! It's THAT way. " :-))) And so the drama continues. And I don't find the drama an issue or a problem. Arguments can be fun if one is so inclined. It is the investment in the drama and craving need for the outcome to be a certain way that creates all the upset. In the absence of that, even in the midst of upset, there is peace. What is love? Love is harmony. Even in discord.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 Thanks Andy, I enjoyed what you had to say. However, I still say that I really can't know anything. All of the example's that you gave (flame, light socket, car, etc) all are part of the illusion and an illusion is nothing but an illusion. So, if I tell myself that I know these things, I am merely reinfocing my own belief that the illusion is real. Let me say it this way, I prefer to know nothing. Best Regards, Steve D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 > Thanks Andy, I enjoyed what you had to say. > > However, I still say that I really can't know anything. > All of the example's that you gave (flame, light socket, car, etc) > all are part of the illusion and an illusion is nothing but an > illusion. So, if I tell myself that I know these things, I am merely > reinfocing my own belief that the illusion is real. Let me say it > this way, I prefer to know nothing. I can relate to your understanding of this Steve However (laughs, yepp a but coming If it is an illusion that you know how to start the car without being told each time by someone else than yourself, then is it an illusion that you are sitting in the car as well? Where does the illusion of knowing end or start in this case. Do we not know how to start a car by simply feeling we do not know it and do it anyway? Maybe it is an illusion that we do not know anything? It is in any way for me a very amusing subject. For example, I do not know any english at all, so it is simply an illusion that you are able to read this, for I do not know how to write or use a computer, the knowledge is not there, only nothing is there Sounds like an old Monthy Python eposide, lol. Love, - Hans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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