Guest guest Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Have a unique issue. I've been asked by tenants of a multi-tenant property to prove that the odors in their properties are coming from one of the other tenants, a hot yoga studio. Hot yoga is a form of yoga that is practiced at high temperatures (104 degrees) with intense workouts. Needless to say, the body odor generated by the customers can be quite intense and can permeate porous surfaces such as carpeting (which is often used for the work surface). The other tenants have asked me to prove that the odor they are smelling is coming from the studio. They are 100% sure it is and I don't doubt this. This is a new one for me, as I've never been asked, nor thought of sampling and analyzing odors associated with sweating. Any guidance out there on this topic? Thanks in advance, Fred Birkle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Fred, I’d check air movement and air pathways before I’d go to the expense of airborne chemical testing. If the air cannot get from the yoga room to residences then that can’t be the problem. If air pathways exist between them but the air moves from residences into the yoga room (always!) instead of from the yoga to the residences then that cannot be the problem. Common or separate forced air systems? Use the smoke tubes recently noted here: see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIfK3LiALw8 Carl GrimesHealthy Habitats LLC From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 2:39 PMTo: iequality Subject: Hot Yoga Studios Have a unique issue. I've been asked by tenants of a multi-tenant property to prove that the odors in their properties are coming from one of the other tenants, a hot yoga studio. Hot yoga is a form of yoga that is practiced at high temperatures (104 degrees) with intense workouts. Needless to say, the body odor generated by the customers can be quite intense and can permeate porous surfaces such as carpeting (which is often used for the work surface). The other tenants have asked me to prove that the odor they are smelling is coming from the studio. They are 100% sure it is and I don't doubt this. This is a new one for me, as I've never been asked, nor thought of sampling and analyzing odors associated with sweating. Any guidance out there on this topic? Thanks in advance, Fred Birkle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Fred:One tool for identifying if and where air is able to travel between two locations is tracer testing.One tracer that I use is sulfur hexafluoride.Where is this hot yoga studio? BeargLife Energy Associateswww.LifeEnergyAssoc.com20 Darton StreetConcord, MA 01742To: iequality Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 4:38:51 PMSubject: Hot Yoga Studios Have a unique issue. I've been asked by tenants of a multi-tenant property to prove that the odors in their properties are coming from one of the other tenants, a hot yoga studio. Hot yoga is a form of yoga that is practiced at high temperatures (104 degrees) with intense workouts. Needless to say, the body odor generated by the customers can be quite intense and can permeate porous surfaces such as carpeting (which is often used for the work surface). The other tenants have asked me to prove that the odor they are smelling is coming from the studio. They are 100% sure it is and I don't doubt this. This is a new one for me, as I've never been asked, nor thought of sampling and analyzing odors associated with sweating. Any guidance out there on this topic? Thanks in advance, Fred Birkle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 Air movement and HVAC is not the question here. This is a commercial building in which the different busineess share common walls and are served by the same RTU. It's not a question as to if the odors are migrating from the Yoga studio to adjacent spaces - if you were to into the adjacent spaces, you would conclude that they are. The issue here is proving that they odor they are smelling is coming from the Yoga studio and my qualitative nose is not sufficient. The other businesses are losing customers because of the odor. Correcting the problem would be expensive and would have to be done by the building owner. The tenants are not interested in correcting the problem - they want the studio moved out of the building. This is a common problem and complaint for Hot Yoga studio customers, but such studios are not ususally in a shared building. If you're never been in such a studio, you have no idea of the odor from the workouts. It's incredible. > > Fred, > > > > I'd check air movement and air pathways before I'd go to the expense of airborne chemical > testing. If the air cannot get from the yoga room to residences then that can't be the > problem. If air pathways exist between them but the air moves from residences into the yoga > room (always!) instead of from the yoga to the residences then that cannot be the problem. > Common or separate forced air systems? Use the smoke tubes recently noted here: see > > > > > Carl Grimes > > Healthy Habitats LLC > > > > > > From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of > Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 2:39 PM > To: iequality > Subject: Hot Yoga Studios > > > > > > > > > Have a unique issue. I've been asked by tenants of a multi-tenant property to prove that > the odors in their properties are coming from one of the other tenants, a hot yoga studio. > Hot yoga is a form of yoga that is practiced at high temperatures (104 degrees) with > intense workouts. Needless to say, the body odor generated by the customers can be quite > intense and can permeate porous surfaces such as carpeting (which is often used for the > work surface). The other tenants have asked me to prove that the odor they are smelling is > coming from the studio. They are 100% sure it is and I don't doubt this. This is a new > one for me, as I've never been asked, nor thought of sampling and analyzing odors > associated with sweating. > > Any guidance out there on this topic? > > Thanks in advance, > > Fred Birkle > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 In Biosafety, we use peppermint on ahotplate to confirm that a containment lab is sealed.  We tell people aroundthe lab to let us know if they smell something.  s J. , MS, PhD, RBPChief Biological Safety OfficerBaylor Research InstituteNEWADDRESS (13JUN11) 3310 Live Oak Street, Suite 401Dallas,TX 75204stevephbaylorhealth (DOT) edu τί á¼ÏƒÏ„ιν ἀλήθεια  From:iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of sagefarm@...Sent: Monday, December 12, 20117:41 PMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Hot YogaStudios Fred: One tool for identifying if and where airis able to travel between two locations is tracer testing. One tracer that I use is sulfurhexafluoride. Where is this hot yoga studio? BeargLife Energy Associateswww.LifeEnergyAssoc.com20 Darton StreetConcord, MA01742 To: iequality Sent: Monday, December 12, 20114:38:51 PMSubject: Hot YogaStudios Have a unique issue. I've beenasked by tenants of a multi-tenant property to prove that the odors in theirproperties are coming from one of the other tenants, a hot yoga studio. Hot yoga is a form of yoga that is practiced at high temperatures (104 degrees)with intense workouts. Needless to say, the body odor generated by thecustomers can be quite intense and can permeate porous surfaces such ascarpeting (which is often used for the work surface). The other tenantshave asked me to prove that the odor they are smelling is coming from thestudio. They are 100% sure it is and I don't doubt this. This is anew one for me, as I've never been asked, nor thought of sampling and analyzingodors associated with sweating. Any guidance out there on this topic? Thanks in advance, Fred BirkleThis e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information. This information is intended only for the use of the individual(s) and entity(ies) to whom it is addressed. If you are the intended recipient, further disclosures are prohibited without proper authorization. If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in error) please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail. Any unauthorized copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden and possibly a violation of federal or state law and regulations. Baylor Health Care System, its subsidiaries, and affiliates hereby claim all applicable privileges related to this information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 Fred The use of a building by any firm that gets the users all sweaty is a fairly common problem. There is one relatively-inexpensive solution that the owner/operator could employ (and they are responsible since they leased a space to the Spa) and that is to redirect the HVAC ducting so that there is no supply to the Spa, only exhaust to the outdoors through a reconnection of the ducting. The supply to the Spa would come from the building, because the Spa would be depressurized by the exhaust/return flow. That works as long as the exhaust/return from the Spa is not mixed in with the returns from the other spaces. Jim H. White SSC Hot Yoga Studios> > > > > > > > > Have a unique issue. I've been asked by tenants of a multi-tenant property to prove that> the odors in their properties are coming from one of the other tenants, a hot yoga studio.> Hot yoga is a form of yoga that is practiced at high temperatures (104 degrees) with> intense workouts. Needless to say, the body odor generated by the customers can be quite> intense and can permeate porous surfaces such as carpeting (which is often used for the> work surface). The other tenants have asked me to prove that the odor they are smelling is> coming from the studio. They are 100% sure it is and I don't doubt this. This is a new> one for me, as I've never been asked, nor thought of sampling and analyzing odors> associated with sweating.> > Any guidance out there on this topic? > > Thanks in advance,> > Fred Birkle> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 So far….I can understand why Fred is frustrated with the IE-Quality suggestions posted to date – none of them answered his query or were practical. So…here is my spin: Human body odor is not one, but a number of VOCs generated by internal metabolic processes as well as activities of skin-colonizing bacteria. These VOCs represent a complex signature of human life, and that chemical signature is not static – body odor varies with diet (e.g., sulfur-compounds from garlic), time of year, general health/sickness, physical exertion, stress, and emotional state. The metabolic body odors I am aware of, for purposes of sensing (monitoring) for the presence of body odor, include: primary and secondary trimethylaminuria dimethylglycinuria, isovaleric acidemia, and diamine. If “dead” is your interest, typical body odors from decomposing flesh (protein hydrolysis) are: cadaverene and putrescine. You can look-up these chemicals because they are the triggering VOCs being used/studied to detect living/dead humans trapped in earthquake-collapsed buildings. “Earthquake” dogs are being trained on these chemicals. This said, these VOCs are not the type of chemicals that most air-labs have programmed into their GC/MS. Tis a challenge that must be dealt with! If I were to collect an air sample to identify human-sourced VOCs, I probably would first try a carbo-trap (EPA TO-7) absorbent, second I would use to EPA TO-15 method and maybe SIM analysis, if possible. Take a large number of samples…upwind, cross-wind, inside, outside, etc., and see if the data correlates with the stinky Yoga gym. These methods are very sensitive to collecting/analyzing VOCs and may work well for the low concentrations that may be present. Given that these analytical methods are both pricey, you may desire to limit the number of samples collected, however, a small sample population tends to limit defensibility, and correlation may be difficult. Which begs the question….Assuming you collect air samples and are able to show that you can identify the chemical odor and nail the source, i.e., the stinky Yoga gym…What is the next step?...A nuisance lawsuit? For what it is worth…. Air movement and HVAC is not the question here. This is a commercial building in which the different busineess share common walls and are served by the same RTU. It's not a question as to if the odors are migrating from the Yoga studio to adjacent spaces - if you were to into the adjacent spaces, you would conclude that they are. The issue here is proving that they odor they are smelling is coming from the Yoga studio and my qualitative nose is not sufficient. The other businesses are losing customers because of the odor. Correcting the problem would be expensive and would have to be done by the building owner. The tenants are not interested in correcting the problem - they want the studio moved out of the building. This is a common problem and complaint for Hot Yoga studio customers, but such studios are not ususally in a shared building. If you're never been in such a studio, you have no idea of the odor from the workouts. It's incredible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 Fred, My response was as limited in context as your initial post. I, obviously, interpreted your request differently than you intended and I didn’t provide sufficient background to my response. So let me explain with a little more context. Other than the details posted below, and what Jim White posted about controlling air movement, the fundamental question is very different: What will convince the building owner/manager to act? If a demonstration of odor movement from the yoga room to the tenant units is sufficient then merely taking them to the two locations would be convincing. If they can’t or claim they can’t “smell anything” then the distinctive peppermint tracer could work. Tracer smoke could add visualization to show them “how” odors moves through the air. If they want sampling based evidence, despite the above, that it is actually human body odor from the hot yoga workouts that is the complaint, then sampling like describes below would be appropriate. However, that may still not be sufficient. They may insist on proof that the “odors,” regardless of composition, can actually cause illness – not just discomfort – but medically diagnosed illness per a diagnostic code that will create liability. If not, then they can dismiss the tenants as just whiners and complainers trying to manipulate them into unnecessary cost. And accuse you of being an extreme scare-monger out to make money at the expense of them. If they are that resistant to addressing the situation then it will likely go to court where ANY type or level of doubt will likely lose the case. Simply because you could not provide the absolute definitiveness to convince the un-convincible. It may help to first find out what will convince the owners that they need to act and what will convince the tenants that the problem is solved. Sampling data and scientific analysis is what convinces us. What convinces each of them? If we don’t know that as a starting point then what are we doing? Without a fundamental definition of the “problem” how can all parties recognize and agree on the answer? Carl GrimesHealthy Habitats LLC From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of GeyerSent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 2:47 PMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Hot Yoga Studios So far….I can understand why Fred is frustrated with the IE-Quality suggestions posted to date – none of them answered his query or were practical. So…here is my spin:Human body odor is not one, but a number of VOCs generated by internal metabolic processes as well as activities of skin-colonizing bacteria. These VOCs represent a complex signature of human life, and that chemical signature is not static – body odor varies with diet (e.g., sulfur-compounds from garlic), time of year, general health/sickness, physical exertion, stress, and emotional state.The metabolic body odors I am aware of, for purposes of sensing (monitoring) for the presence of body odor, include: primary and secondary trimethylaminuria dimethylglycinuria, isovaleric acidemia, and diamine. If “dead” is your interest, typical body odors from decomposing flesh (protein hydrolysis) are: cadaverene and putrescine. You can look-up these chemicals because they are the triggering VOCs being used/studied to detect living/dead humans trapped in earthquake-collapsed buildings. “Earthquake” dogs are being trained on these chemicals.This said, these VOCs are not the type of chemicals that most air-labs have programmed into their GC/MS. Tis a challenge that must be dealt with! If I were to collect an air sample to identify human-sourced VOCs, I probably would first try a carbo-trap (EPA TO-7) absorbent, second I would use to EPA TO-15 method and maybe SIM analysis, if possible. Take a large number of samples…upwind, cross-wind, inside, outside, etc., and see if the data correlates with the stinky Yoga gym. These methods are very sensitive to collecting/analyzing VOCs and may work well for the low concentrations that may be present. Given that these analytical methods are both pricey, you may desire to limit the number of samples collected, however, a small sample population tends to limit defensibility, and correlation may be difficult.Which begs the question….Assuming you collect air samples and are able to show that you can identify the chemical odor and nail the source, i.e., the stinky Yoga gym…What is the next step?...A nuisance lawsuit?For what it is worth…. Air movement and HVAC is not the question here. This is a commercial building in which the different busineess share common walls and are served by the same RTU. It's not a question as to if the odors are migrating from the Yoga studio to adjacent spaces - if you were to into the adjacent spaces, you would conclude that they are. The issue here is proving that they odor they are smelling is coming from the Yoga studio and my qualitative nose is not sufficient. The other businesses are losing customers because of the odor. Correcting the problem would be expensive and would have to be done by the building owner. The tenants are not interested in correcting the problem - they want the studio moved out of the building.This is a common problem and complaint for Hot Yoga studio customers, but such studios are not ususally in a shared building. If you're never been in such a studio, you have no idea of the odor from the workouts. It's incredible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Carl Great post! Jim RE: Re: Hot Yoga Studios Fred, My response was as limited in context as your initial post. I, obviously, interpreted your request differently than you intended and I didn’t provide sufficient background to my response. So let me explain with a little more context. Other than the details posted below, and what Jim White posted about controlling air movement, the fundamental question is very different: What will convince the building owner/manager to act? If a demonstration of odor movement from the yoga room to the tenant units is sufficient then merely taking them to the two locations would be convincing. If they can’t or claim they can’t “smell anything” then the distinctive peppermint tracer could work. Tracer smoke could add visualization to show them “how” odors moves through the air. If they want sampling based evidence, despite the above, that it is actually human body odor from the hot yoga workouts that is the complaint, then sampling like describes below would be appropriate. However, that may still not be sufficient. They may insist on proof that the “odors,” regardless of composition, can actually cause illness – not just discomfort – but medically diagnosed illness per a diagnostic code that will create liability. If not, then they can dismiss the tenants as just whiners and complainers trying to manipulate them into unnecessary cost. And accuse you of being an extreme scare-monger out to make money at the expense of them. If they are that resistant to addressing the situation then it will likely go to court where ANY type or level of doubt will likely lose the case. Simply because you could not provide the absolute definitiveness to convince the un-convincible. It may help to first find out what will convince the owners that they need to act and what will convince the tenants that the problem is solved. Sampling data and scientific analysis is what convinces us. What convinces each of them? If we don’t know that as a starting point then what are we doing? Without a fundamental definition of the “problem” how can all parties recognize and agree on the answer? Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of GeyerSent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 2:47 PMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Hot Yoga Studios So far….I can understand why Fred is frustrated with the IE-Quality suggestions posted to date – none of them answered his query or were practical. So…here is my spin:Human body odor is not one, but a number of VOCs generated by internal metabolic processes as well as activities of skin-colonizing bacteria. These VOCs represent a complex signature of human life, and that chemical signature is not static – body odor varies with diet (e.g., sulfur-compounds from garlic), time of year, general health/sickness, physical exertion, stress, and emotional state.The metabolic body odors I am aware of, for purposes of sensing (monitoring) for the presence of body odor, include: primary and secondary trimethylaminuria dimethylglycinuria, isovaleric acidemia, and diamine. If “dead” is your interest, typical body odors from decomposing flesh (protein hydrolysis) are: cadaverene and putrescine. You can look-up these chemicals because they are the triggering VOCs being used/studied to detect living/dead humans trapped in earthquake-collapsed buildings. “Earthquake” dogs are being trained on these chemicals.This said, these VOCs are not the type of chemicals that most air-labs have programmed into their GC/MS. Tis a challenge that must be dealt with! If I were to collect an air sample to identify human-sourced VOCs, I probably would first try a carbo-trap (EPA TO-7) absorbent, second I would use to EPA TO-15 method and maybe SIM analysis, if possible. Take a large number of samples…upwind, cross-wind, inside, outside, etc., and see if the data correlates with the stinky Yoga gym. These methods are very sensitive to collecting/analyzing VOCs and may work well for the low concentrations that may be present. Given that these analytical methods are both pricey, you may desire to limit the number of samples collected, however, a small sample population tends to limit defensibility, and correlation may be difficult.Which begs the question….Assuming you collect air samples and are able to show that you can identify the chemical odor and nail the source, i.e., the stinky Yoga gym…What is the next step?...A nuisance lawsuit?For what it is worth…. Air movement and HVAC is not the question here. This is a commercial building in which the different busineess share common walls and are served by the same RTU. It's not a question as to if the odors are migrating from the Yoga studio to adjacent spaces - if you were to into the adjacent spaces, you would conclude that they are. The issue here is proving that they odor they are smelling is coming from the Yoga studio and my qualitative nose is not sufficient. The other businesses are losing customers because of the odor. Correcting the problem would be expensive and would have to be done by the building owner. The tenants are not interested in correcting the problem - they want the studio moved out of the building.This is a common problem and complaint for Hot Yoga studio customers, but such studios are not ususally in a shared building. If you're never been in such a studio, you have no idea of the odor from the workouts. It's incredible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Dear Colleagues.I would like to suggest for a minute that a key issue is actually air movement.Air movement up though the building driven by buoyant heated air leaking out of the upper levels of the building,and drawing air from the lower levels via internal penetrations for plumbing and electrical pathways.The value of tracer testing is, after a zero background in the affected area is documented, it can document not only that there is air movement, but quantifiable measurements of tracer concentration can identify the specific pathways involved.Further testing after sealing of these penetrations can determine the effectiveness of these sealing efforts and assess whether new pathways have opened up.Sincerley, W. Bearg, PELife Energy Associateswww.LifeEnergyAssoc.com20 Darton StreetConcord, MA 01742To: iequality Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 9:40:54 AMSubject: Re: Hot Yoga Studios Air movement and HVAC is not the question here. This is a commercial building in which the different busineess share common walls and are served by the same RTU. It's not a question as to if the odors are migrating from the Yoga studio to adjacent spaces - if you were to into the adjacent spaces, you would conclude that they are. The issue here is proving that they odor they are smelling is coming from the Yoga studio and my qualitative nose is not sufficient. The other businesses are losing customers because of the odor. Correcting the problem would be expensive and would have to be done by the building owner. The tenants are not interested in correcting the problem - they want the studio moved out of the building. This is a common problem and complaint for Hot Yoga studio customers, but such studios are not ususally in a shared building. If you're never been in such a studio, you have no idea of the odor from the workouts. It's incredible. > > Fred, > > > > I'd check air movement and air pathways before I'd go to the expense of airborne chemical > testing. If the air cannot get from the yoga room to residences then that can't be the > problem. If air pathways exist between them but the air moves from residences into the yoga > room (always!) instead of from the yoga to the residences then that cannot be the problem. > Common or separate forced air systems? Use the smoke tubes recently noted here: see > > > > > Carl Grimes > > Healthy Habitats LLC > > > > > > From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of > Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 2:39 PM > To: iequality > Subject: Hot Yoga Studios > > > > > > > > > Have a unique issue. I've been asked by tenants of a multi-tenant property to prove that > the odors in their properties are coming from one of the other tenants, a hot yoga studio. > Hot yoga is a form of yoga that is practiced at high temperatures (104 degrees) with > intense workouts. Needless to say, the body odor generated by the customers can be quite > intense and can permeate porous surfaces such as carpeting (which is often used for the > work surface). The other tenants have asked me to prove that the odor they are smelling is > coming from the studio. They are 100% sure it is and I don't doubt this. This is a new > one for me, as I've never been asked, nor thought of sampling and analyzing odors > associated with sweating. > > Any guidance out there on this topic? > > Thanks in advance, > > Fred Birkle > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 Thanks Mike. Not sure how they plan to go about it, but they want the building owner to buy out the Yoga studio's lease. I doubt that my customary IH labs will have methods for these components. Do you have 1-2 labs you can suggest to discuss with? > > > > > > Air movement and HVAC is not the question here. This is a commercial building > > in which the different busineess share common walls and are served by the same > > RTU. It's not a question as to if the odors are migrating from the Yoga > > studio to adjacent spaces - if you were to into the adjacent spaces, you would > > conclude that they are. The issue here is proving that they odor they are > > smelling is coming from the Yoga studio and my qualitative nose is not > > sufficient. The other businesses are losing customers because of the odor. > > Correcting the problem would be expensive and would have to be done by the > > building owner. The tenants are not interested in correcting the problem - > > they want the studio moved out of the building. > > > > This is a common problem and complaint for Hot Yoga studio customers, but such > > studios are not ususally in a shared building. If you're never been in such a > > studio, you have no idea of the odor from the workouts. It's incredible. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 Thanks Jim, but again air movement between properties here is not the question. The different businesses in the building are served by the same air handling system, so yes odors from the studio will be distributed to other units in the property via mixing of the air. The tenants believe that the studio is not a proper entity for that building. There will be no scare mongering here on my part. This is not a health issue - the odors are driving customers from the other businesses away. If you were to walk in some of the units, you would know why. > > > > Air movement and HVAC is not the question here. This is a commercial building in which the different busineess share common walls and are served by the same RTU. It's not a question as to if the odors are migrating from the Yoga studio to adjacent spaces - if you were to into the adjacent spaces, you would conclude that they are. The issue here is proving that they odor they are smelling is coming from the Yoga studio and my qualitative nose is not sufficient. The other businesses are losing customers because of the odor. Correcting the problem would be expensive and would have to be done by the building owner. The tenants are not interested in correcting the problem - they want the studio moved out of the building. > > This is a common problem and complaint for Hot Yoga studio customers, but such studios are not ususally in a shared building. If you're never been in such a studio, you have no idea of the odor from the workouts. It's incredible. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 Fred If the Spa were exhaust ventilated to the outdoors and the other units got a share of the fresh air inflow, but the Spa did not, there would be no odor in the other units. Although the stack effect exists, even in the reverse direction during the cooling season, it is often smaller than the pressure difference caused by the fresh air intake and stale air exhaust, if that is provided properly. By the way, I recommend against getting involved in cases where there is an agenda like the one that you suggest; you can get seriously burned! (Gee, how would I know that?) Jim Re: Hot Yoga Studios Thanks Jim, but again air movement between properties here is not the question. The different businesses in the building are served by the same air handling system, so yes odors from the studio will be distributed to other units in the property via mixing of the air. The tenants believe that the studio is not a proper entity for that building. There will be no scare mongering here on my part. This is not a health issue - the odors are driving customers from the other businesses away. If you were to walk in some of the units, you would know why. > > > > Air movement and HVAC is not the question here. This is a commercial building in which the different busineess share common walls and are served by the same RTU. It's not a question as to if the odors are migrating from the Yoga studio to adjacent spaces - if you were to into the adjacent spaces, you would conclude that they are. The issue here is proving that they odor they are smelling is coming from the Yoga studio and my qualitative nose is not sufficient. The other businesses are losing customers because of the odor. Correcting the problem would be expensive and would have to be done by the building owner. The tenants are not interested in correcting the problem - they want the studio moved out of the building.> > This is a common problem and complaint for Hot Yoga studio customers, but such studios are not ususally in a shared building. If you're never been in such a studio, you have no idea of the odor from the workouts. It's incredible.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 As a real estate broker, I would approach the problem a little bit differently. Was there any unpleasant odors in the building prior to the arrival of the Yoga tenant? Probably not. Are there unpleasant odors in the building after the Yoga tenant arrived? According to the tenants who occupy the building the answer is yes. Does the Yoga space smell bad when an un-sensitized person smells the Yoga space? Yes, according to the posts. Most leases have a clause that prohibits inappropriate use of the premises, and it prohibits any action that may impact the balance of the building. This is a contractual issue with the tenants. I am not sure that an actual pathway must be established to convince a reasonable person that the odors are eminating from the Yoga space. It only takes 51% preponderance of the evidence in civil court to prevail. I suspect that if the complaining tenants went to the landlord and threatened to move in mass, then the landlord would take steps to protect his investment and evict the Yoga tenant. I wonder if the Yoga tenant disclosed the fact that they would be very stinky prior to their signing the lease. Is the tenant space designed to contain odors? Almost certainly not. Lying about the intended use of the space is grounds for canceling the contract. All it would take is for one tenant to say that the odor is making them sick and threaten the landlord, (much like mold) then the landlord would take quick action just to eliminate any chance of litigious action. Surely, the people who are involved in the Hot Yoga business are aware of the odors, and its repercussions. They cannot claim ignorance. Brad Deal Re: Hot Yoga Studios Thanks Jim, but again air movement between properties here is not the question. The different businesses in the building are served by the same air handling system, so yes odors from the studio will be distributed to other units in the property via mixing of the air. The tenants believe that the studio is not a proper entity for that building. There will be no scare mongering here on my part. This is not a health issue - the odors are driving customers from the other businesses away. If you were to walk in some of the units, you would know why. > > > > Air movement and HVAC is not the question here. This is a commercial building in which the different busineess share common walls and are served by the same RTU. It's not a question as to if the odors are migrating from the Yoga studio to adjacent spaces - if you were to into the adjacent spaces, you would conclude that they are. The issue here is proving that they odor they are smelling is coming from the Yoga studio and my qualitative nose is not sufficient. The other businesses are losing customers because of the odor. Correcting the problem would be expensive and would have to be done by the building owner. The tenants are not interested in correcting the problem - they want the studio moved out of the building. > > This is a common problem and complaint for Hot Yoga studio customers, but such studios are not ususally in a shared building. If you're never been in such a studio, you have no idea of the odor from the workouts. It's incredible. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 With a piece of one-ply toilet paper you can tell if the air is going in or out the door of the studio. Of course we don’t know what the ventilation situation is, ie does it have HVAC or not. I have done hot yoga and the only smells are that of sweat. What odors are they complaining about? Another thing I’ve notices in regular (not “hot-yoga”, particularly,)yoga studios-lots of bodies and very few air exchanges. And many students insist on keeping the windows closed cause they like it warm. I suspect in some of the studios that I have done yoga the CO2 is very high. Would make for a nice study if you could find cooperating studios. Some of the practitioners might be very surprised at the less than healthy levels. From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 4:39 PM To: iequality Subject: Hot Yoga Studios Have a unique issue. I've been asked by tenants of a multi-tenant property to prove that the odors in their properties are coming from one of the other tenants, a hot yoga studio. Hot yoga is a form of yoga that is practiced at high temperatures (104 degrees) with intense workouts. Needless to say, the body odor generated by the customers can be quite intense and can permeate porous surfaces such as carpeting (which is often used for the work surface). The other tenants have asked me to prove that the odor they are smelling is coming from the studio. They are 100% sure it is and I don't doubt this. This is a new one for me, as I've never been asked, nor thought of sampling and analyzing odors associated with sweating. Any guidance out there on this topic? Thanks in advance, Fred Birkle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 Thats a good solution as long as you don’t need the supply air for the heat. From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Jim H. White SSC Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 3:05 PM To: iequality Subject: Re: Re: Hot Yoga Studios Fred The use of a building by any firm that gets the users all sweaty is a fairly common problem. There is one relatively-inexpensive solution that the owner/operator could employ (and they are responsible since they leased a space to the Spa) and that is to redirect the HVAC ducting so that there is no supply to the Spa, only exhaust to the outdoors through a reconnection of the ducting. The supply to the Spa would come from the building, because the Spa would be depressurized by the exhaust/return flow. That works as long as the exhaust/return from the Spa is not mixed in with the returns from the other spaces. Jim H. White SSC Hot Yoga Studios > > > > > > > > > Have a unique issue. I've been asked by tenants of a multi-tenant property to prove that > the odors in their properties are coming from one of the other tenants, a hot yoga studio. > Hot yoga is a form of yoga that is practiced at high temperatures (104 degrees) with > intense workouts. Needless to say, the body odor generated by the customers can be quite > intense and can permeate porous surfaces such as carpeting (which is often used for the > work surface). The other tenants have asked me to prove that the odor they are smelling is > coming from the studio. They are 100% sure it is and I don't doubt this. This is a new > one for me, as I've never been asked, nor thought of sampling and analyzing odors > associated with sweating. > > Any guidance out there on this topic? > > Thanks in advance, > > Fred Birkle > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.