Re: Alternative therapies/Phil and Mira

[Guest guest]

Diane wrote:

> Wish I could do some " aquatherapy " , but alas I cannot tolerate chlorine

> in any form.

Some places now use oxygen instead of chlorine to keep their pools sanitary.

You

might be able to call around and find one. I can't tolerate chlorine either.

Unfortunately, since my move south, I haven't found a Y or public pool that

doesn't use chlorine. I miss being able to float in that nice, warm oxygenated

water :-)

> I can also bring my heart-rate down with meditation and mind/body

> work...can you?

I took biofeedback training and can bring my heart rate down. I wish I could

figure out how to " mind over matter " lower my blood pressure. Those BP meds are

expensive!

Lyndi

[Guest guest]

Lyndi wrote:

>

> I took biofeedback training and can bring my heart rate down. I wish I could

> figure out how to " mind over matter " lower my blood pressure. Those BP meds

are

> expensive!

Try exercise. I usually see a 20-point drop in my diastolic after just a

half hour in the gym.

That exercise reduces BP is well established, and the reasons why are

also well understood. Many of the products of muscle metabolism, like

lactic acid, are potent vasodilators. So your blood vessels

automatically open up to permit more blood and oxygen to reach those

needy muscles. And when your blood vessels enlarge, your BP falls by

simple physics.

This is my favorite example of homeostasis.

As for the cost of BP meds, did you see the large study that came out

earlier this year saying that old, cheap, generic diuretics are just as

safe and effective as the new, expensive antihypertensives?

I asked my cardiologist about this. She agrees that diuretics are safe

and effective, but they still start with the newer drugs (when the

patient has good insurance) for the simple reason that they place less

of a load on the kidneys, and the patient isn't annoyed by frequent

trips to the toilet.

Phil

[Guest guest]

Ya-a-ay Diane! That's the whole point. If it works for you, then go

for it! I was trained in western medicine, but I tell people, " you

have to do what's best for YOU. " And you, Diane, are doing perfectly

that. Thank you. Take care. Quita.

I have stayed out of this as long as I can! *L* I just have

to jump in here and share my personal experiences with alternative

therapies and " new-age-mumbo-jumbo " .

In my humble opinion, I believe (for myself) that modern medicine is

a " three-legged stool " . Due to the fact that I have been reacting to

" drugs " most of my life, I have had to seek " alternative " methods of

helping myself stay on my feet. By the way, some of the " meds " that

cause me the most grief are petrochemicals. Sometimes I am forced >

I can also bring my heart-rate down with meditation and mind/body

work...can you?

Diane

[Guest guest]

Diane wrote:

> years and her health had crashed with chronic fatigue. Her therapies

> literally save my life and one thing she did was take me to a

> homeopathic physician and paid the $100 bucks for the evaluation and the

> remedies. It worked.

Like I've been saying, this underscores the psychological aspect of

chronic pain. There is absolutely no way that homeopathy can possibly

work except as a placebo; this has been proven many times in carefully

controlled studies. Dissolve some sugar in tap water and drink it if it

makes you feel better; that's just as effective (and a lot cheaper) than

what those quacks sell for enormous profits.

> Phil, no offense intended, but your comment about " switching off your

> ears " says to me that you also close your mind. MEN...from mars...gotta

> be logical and proven!

> As for me, if it works, I am jubilant...to heck with 'why'!

Go back and carefully re-read what I said. You'll see that I do *not*

require a known mechanism (a " why " ) for a pain treatment to be worth

using. That's nice, but not necessary. All I ask is that it be both safe

and effective. Heck, the opioid receptors were only discovered about 40

years ago, but that didn't keep people from effectively controlling pain

with opium and opioids for thousands of years.

The single biggest breakthrough in all of medical history was the

double-blind study. Why? Because of the placebo effect, a very real

phenomenon -- especially in pain. It's just not enough to say that

because you felt better after you took something, that " something " must

work. You might have felt better even without taking it, or your relief

might be due to something else, or you might have simply *thought* it

helped because you hoped it would.

For all I know, you only *say* you feel better when you really don't

because you just don't want to admit that somebody ripped you off.

Again, please note I am *not* disparaging the psychological aspects and

approaches to dealing with pain. Far from it! As I keep saying, the

placebo effect alone proves the vital role of psychology in pain

management. All I ask for is a little scientific rigor, as the only

purpose of science is to better help us discover the truth through the

use of safeguards designed to keep us from fooling ourselves.

> I can also bring my heart-rate down with meditation and mind/body

> work...can you?

Sure. But sometimes it's much easier and quicker to take a small dose of

atenolol (a beta blocker).

Phil

[Guest guest]

Actually in carefully controlled studies Homeopathy

has been proven more effective over placebo many

times.

Ellen

[Guest guest]

Ellen Scusa wrote:

> Actually in carefully controlled studies Homeopathy

> has been proven more effective over placebo many

> times.

Care to provide some references? In respected peer reviewed medical

journals?

Because it just ain't so.

--Phil

[Guest guest]

I wish I had a scanner so I could show you all a picture I had made while I was

detoxing from medications using homeopathic remedy! Pictures say a thousand

words. My face was swollen (chipmunk looking cheeks); the skin was flaming and

felt like sandpaper; also, I had a few places where the skin actually broke

open! Bear in mind, I was doing this detoxing under the supervision of an RN who

had a hotline to my doctor!! Afterward I looked and felt like a new person!!

Placebo my *ss!

Ooops...sorry...lol

Diane

Ellen Scusa wrote:

> Actually in carefully controlled studies Homeopathy

> has been proven more effective over placebo many

> times.

>

> Ellen

>

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[Guest guest]

In 1994, results on Homeopathy published in major Western journals done with

placebo was published in an American medical journal. The first done was in

pediatrics, (double-blind placebo-controlled study, published in 1994 and

directed by homeopath s, MD, revealed that homeopathic treatment

for

life threatening diarrhea in Nicaraguan children had a significant advantage

over placebo.(Results are in book)

During a 18 month study more than 700 people with addictions received a

homeopathic remedy, a placebo, or nothing at all, in Sacromento Ca. Results

were

stunning and are in medical journals. Dr. -Swain is working on getting it

published and 2 addiction centers are repeating the study. In 1997, a landmark

review published in the medical journal Lancet, researchers analyzed 89 of the

most well done studies on homeopathy, but it's conclusions were mixed.

The researchers found that homeopathy was almost two to three times more

effective than placebo remedies. But at the same time they could not find enough

scientific support to say that homeopathy is effective for any single condition.

That is, they

could not find treatments that had been tested in stringent studies done by at

least three independent scientific groups. (money is the problem here) Any

way, This is just what I read, I read alot and am always open to ideas. I think

everything is worth something. You asked for some proof. I have more if you want

but I have to go for now because my hands are going to fall off.

[Guest guest]

Diane wrote:

> I wish I had a scanner so I could show you all a picture I had made while I

was

> detoxing from medications using homeopathic remedy!

Wait a minute, I am not sure I understand you. Are you saying you were

detoxing *from homeopathic medications*, or using homeopathic

medications to detoxify from other, nonhomeopathic drugs?

Since homeopathic " drugs " are so dilute as to have no molecules at all

of whatever " medicine " they are supposedly made from, ordinarily you'd

expect them to have no effect whatsoever, good or bad.

However, since these are unregulated quack remedies, they could easily

have all sorts of nasty contaminants.

Phil

[Guest guest]

Ellen Scusa wrote:

> In 1994, results on Homeopathy published in major Western journals

" major Western journals " is not very specific or descriptive.

> During a 18 month study more than 700 people with addictions received

> a homeopathic remedy, a placebo, or nothing at all, in Sacromento Ca.

> Results were stunning and are in medical journals. Dr. -Swain

> is working on getting it published and 2 addiction centers are

> repeating the study. In 1997, a landmark review published in the

> medical journal Lancet, researchers analyzed 89 of the most well done

> studies on homeopathy, but it's conclusions were mixed.

This Lancet study is mentioned in this review:

http://www.acsh.org/publications/priorities/1201/homeopathy.html

Note the following passage:

(In a later issue, a critic of the study noted that the best of the

trials in question had been distinctly less likely to generate a

positive finding than had the trials as a whole, and another critic

indicated that preferential nonpublication of relevant studies that had

generated negative findings may have skewed the findings of the

meta-analytic study.)

(end of passage)

In other words, positive findings seem to to occur only in poorly

conducted studies, and selective publication (publishing only the

positive results, not the negative) also seems to be common in

homeopathy. As anyone who understands statistics well knows, you just

can't be selective about your data. Even the most carefully controlled

experiments inevitably include some random " noise " that will cause some

individual cases to appear to succeed just by chance. So if you pick

only the " successful " trials, you'll appear to have something that just

isn't there. You've got to do the test many times on many people and

count the failures as well as the successes.

Selective inclusion of data is a very common element in the development

of myths, paranormal beliefs and urban legends, not to mention many

gamblers' fallacies.

The bottom line is very simple: homeopathic " medicines " have not been

shown to be more effective than placebo in any properly controlled and

conducted study, nor are there any sensical physical mechanisms by which

they could conceivably work. (I.e., they fail in both practice and theory.)

At best homeoathy does no good *or* harm to the patient's health (though

great damage can be done to his wallet). At worst, it can seriously

injure the patient, e.g., by incorporating harmful substances due to

their completely unregulated manufacture, or by causing the patient to

not seek real medical care (e.g., by treating heart disease with

homeopathic medicine instead of going to a competent cardiologist.)

Phil

[Guest guest]

Lyndi wrote:

> Some places now use oxygen instead of chlorine to keep their pools sanitary.

You

> might be able to call around and find one. I can't tolerate chlorine either

Are you sure that was oxygen, not ozone?

Ozone is O3, three oxygen molecules bound together instead of the usual

two in ordinary oxygen (O2). It is produced from the oxygen in air by

either shortwave ultraviolet light or by an electric discharge. It has a

characteristic sharp smell that many people associate with electricity

(since it's a product of electric sparking.)

Ozone is an *extremely* reactive oxidizer, much more so than ordinary

oxygen or even chlorine. That's why it's used in some swimming pools as

a disinfectant instead of chlorine, because it cannot form the

chlorinated organic compounds that cause much of the irritation you get

in a chlorinated pool. But ozone is still pretty nasty stuff that can

attack plastics and fabrics (and tissues), so you still have to set the

right level just as with chlorine or bromine.

Phil

[Guest guest]

Phil Karn wrote:

> At best homeopathy does no good *or* harm to the patient's health (though

> great damage can be done to his wallet). At worst, it can seriously

> injure the patient, e.g., by incorporating harmful substances due to

> their completely unregulated manufacture,

Phil you will be very interested in reading about our scandal here

concerning Pan Pharmaceuticals Limited.

If you do a search for " Pan and drug and recall " . You will find so much

info to concur with your stand on the subject.

There are stories where workers would not clean up the medication

compounds on a table which then contaminated the next lot of medications

to be made up. One boy of 9 or 11 took sea sick tablets, he went

absolutely crazy and jumped off a boat. His packet of meds was analysed.

He had 7 times the amount of the properties in one pill. At the time his

parents didn't know this and wondered what on earth was wrong. He was

tripping the poor boy!

And some of the other pills had virtually nothing in them at all. all

in the sme box too. Read the stories. Because to happily take them as a

placebo is courting with danger when you cannot be sure what is in them,

because the companies are not regulated like drug companies are. there

are no trials, it is hit and miss and has rocked my confidence in taking

and buying at high prices anyway herbal meds. Since I would very

carefully read the labels and buy according to the dosage of ingredients

on the bottle.

Sharon.

Heading----

" Drug recall should be used as industry wake-up call. "

http://www.abc.net.au/public/s844133.htm

Quotes:

Finding out that some of the best known brands of herbal and vitamin

preparations in Australia have been poorly manufactured with

insufficient quality control, is like finding out your partner's been

having an affair.

As the list of recalled medicines made by Pan Pharmaceuticals grows

larger, so too does the negative sentiment amongst consumers and health

professionals who ask " how could this happen " ? and " how long has this

been going on " ?

Heading- - - " Pan Pharmaceuticals Limited - Regulatory Action and

Product Recall Information "

http://www.tga.gov.au/recalls/pan.htm

Quotes:

219 products manufactured and supplied in Australia by Pan

Pharmaceuticals Limited have been identified for immediate recall. These

products have been cancelled from the Australian Register of Therapeutic

Goods for quality and safety reasons. The company has also had its

approval to supply its range of export products (approximately 1650)

cancelled.

In addition, a further, larger recall of products manufactured by Pan

Pharmaceuticals Limited under contract for other sponsors is underway.

The TGA has been working with the sponsors of these products to identify

those for recall. Lists of these products have been published in the

newspapers and details are also available on the TGA web site

<http://www.tga.gov.au/recalls/nonpanrec.htm>.

A single batch of the antidepressant medicine, Allegron 25 mg is being

recalled as part of the recall of medicines manufactured by Pan

Pharmaceutical Limited.

********************

http://www.tga.gov.au/recalls/pan.htm

* Regulatory Action and Product Recall Information

<http://www.tga.gov.au/recalls/pan.htm#start>

* Further information

o Media releases <http://www.tga.gov.au/recalls/pan.htm#info>

o Contact details <http://www.tga.gov.au/recalls/pan.htm#contact>

o Information for consumers

<http://www.tga.gov.au/recalls/pan.htm#consumers>

o Information for industry

<http://www.tga.gov.au/recalls/pan.htm#industry>

o Information for overseas regulatory agencies

<http://www.tga.gov.au/recalls/pan.htm#os>

o Refunds <http://www.tga.gov.au/recalls/pan.htm#refunds>,

food <http://www.tga.gov.au/recalls/pan.htm#food>,

veterinary products <http://www.tga.gov.au/recalls/pan.htm#vet>

* Urgent Medicine Recall - Products manufactured by Pan

Pharmaceuticals Limited and supplied by various sponsors and

distributors <http://www.tga.gov.au/recalls/nonpanrec.htm> (as at

4pm 3 June 2003)

* Pan Pharmaceuticals Limited Manufactured Products for Immediate

Recall <http://www.tga.gov.au/recalls/panprod.htm> (28 April 2003)

* Sponsors that do NOT use Pan Pharmaceuticals Limited as a

manufacturer for any of their products

<http://www.tga.gov.au/recalls/non_panprod.htm>