RE: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more

[Guest guest]

I have inquired about retrofitting my

house with fresh air make up, but found it not cheap or simple at all. You have

to heat cold air and condition hot or humid air, and/or have an automatic shut

off for when the air is too hot or too cold, making the whole thing expensive

and complicated. Maybe it works great in places with perfect weather year

round, but those places probably have their windows open anyway.

Shell Bleiweiss

Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss

Environmental and OSHA Law

Offices in Chicago

and Barrington, Illinois

(direct)

(general)

sbleiweiss@...

http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of midsouthbuilders

Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011

9:06 AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Check out

Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more

ASHRAE 62.2-2010 calls for the use of energy recovery

ventilation(ERV) or heat recovery ventilation (HRV) or Fresh Air Supply

Ventilation (FAV) fans for residential construction. This can be something as

simple as a Panasonic bathroom ERV or an HVAC based system. I much prefer an

HVAC based systems (Honeywell) so that air can be filtered and better

conditioned before entry into the living space. ERV/HRV/ERVs have been proven

to significantly improve residential IEQ.

As cost effective and beneficial as they are, it's ridiculous not to include

them in residential design.

Will

>

> This is a gross oversimplification:

>

>

>

> “one bathroom fan can free a whole house of off-gassing,

formaldehydes, chemicals, and humid airâ€Â

>

>

>

> If you live in a one-room studio apartment, this could work if you have

good air flow from the living space into the bathroom.

>

>

>

> If you have a tight multi-room house with no forced-air ducts (e.g. with

base-board heating), ventilating the entire house is difficult. These are

primarily bathroom fans, not whole-house fans.

>

>

>

> If the exhaust fan is installed only in the bathroom, it can pump air out

of the bathroom assuming that a window is open to allow fresh air to enter. To

enable the fan to ventilate more than just the bathroom, there must be a way

for air to enter from the rest of the house into that room. If this is done,

then any bathroom window must be closed.

>

>

>

> To enable air to enter the bathroom from the rest of the house, either

install louvers in the bathroom door or cut an inch from the bottom of the

bathroom door. Of course, bathroom sounds are likely to be heard beyond the

bathroom.

>

>

>

> If you have a really tight house, you must have a source of fresh air to

make up for the air you are exhausting. To have a well-ventilated house, fresh

air must reach every room in the house, which means installing a hole in the exterior

wall of each room having a window.

>

>

>

> It does no good for a fan to exhaust air if air is being restricted from

entering the bathroom, and it does no good to have exhaust fans in more than

one bathroom if no fresh air can enter those rooms you want to ventilate.

>

>

>

> In order to have variable fan speeds take care of different amounts of

air-exchange for the whole house, you must figure out how much air needs to be

moved and whether the fans you install will provide that volume of air-exchange.

>

>

>

> Norman Gauss

>

>

>

> From: iequality

[mailto:iequality ]

On Behalf Of snk1955@...

> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 3:00 PM

> To: iequality

> Subject: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems |

Breathe Easy: New fans do more

>

>

>

>

>

> What do you all think of this? Is this for real?

>

>

>

> <http://www.ebuild.com/articles/1634411.hwx/Q/advid.ENPN090111>

Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more than

just ventilate the bathroom.

>

>

>

> as air quality becomes increasingly important for owners of

super-insulated homes, one bathroom fan can free a whole house of off-gassing,

formaldehydes, chemicals, and humid air, manufacturers claim.

“More and more you’re hearing people say

‘Build tight and ventilate right,’â€Â

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Shell: While there might be benefits to conditioning the increased outdoor air for ventilation. If you have a forced hot air heating system, the return ductwork can merely be extended to include a connection to the outdoors. I disagree with the oft stated requirement that this outdoor air source be dampered to prevent overventilation, as this condition is more effectively dealt with by effective air sealing at the upper levels of the structure. If one considers a hot air balloon, it is wide open at the bottom but cold air doesn't rush in as no air is leaving at the top to allow this to happen. Also, if it is cold enough that the furnace is warming the recirculated home air, the outdoor air will be heated as well, and if the furnace is not in operation, the cold outdoor air will be tempered by mixing with the warmish air already in the ducts. This approach has worked very well in my home in Concord, MA for many years. This way when my exhaust fans are in operation they don't need to create cold drafts near the windows and operate against less resistance and therefore more more air than if the pathway to the outdoors did not exist. Any questions? Sincerely, W. Bearg, PELife Energy Associateswww.LifeEnergyAssoc.com20 Darton StreetConcord, MA 01742To: iequality Sent: Friday, September 2, 2011 10:40:16 AMSubject: RE: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more

I have inquired about retrofitting my

house with fresh air make up, but found it not cheap or simple at all. You have

to heat cold air and condition hot or humid air, and/or have an automatic shut

off for when the air is too hot or too cold, making the whole thing expensive

and complicated. Maybe it works great in places with perfect weather year

round, but those places probably have their windows open anyway.

Shell Bleiweiss

Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss

Environmental and OSHA Law

Offices in Chicago

and Barrington, Illinois

(direct)

(general)

sbleiweiss@...

http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of midsouthbuilders

Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011

9:06 AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Check out

Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more

ASHRAE 62.2-2010 calls for the use of energy recovery

ventilation(ERV) or heat recovery ventilation (HRV) or Fresh Air Supply

Ventilation (FAV) fans for residential construction. This can be something as

simple as a Panasonic bathroom ERV or an HVAC based system. I much prefer an

HVAC based systems (Honeywell) so that air can be filtered and better

conditioned before entry into the living space. ERV/HRV/ERVs have been proven

to significantly improve residential IEQ.

As cost effective and beneficial as they are, it's ridiculous not to include

them in residential design.

Will

>

> This is a gross oversimplification:

>

>

>

> “one bathroom fan can free a whole house of off-gassing,

formaldehydes, chemicals, and humid airâ€Â

>

>

>

> If you live in a one-room studio apartment, this could work if you have

good air flow from the living space into the bathroom.

>

>

>

> If you have a tight multi-room house with no forced-air ducts (e.g. with

base-board heating), ventilating the entire house is difficult. These are

primarily bathroom fans, not whole-house fans.

>

>

>

> If the exhaust fan is installed only in the bathroom, it can pump air out

of the bathroom assuming that a window is open to allow fresh air to enter. To

enable the fan to ventilate more than just the bathroom, there must be a way

for air to enter from the rest of the house into that room. If this is done,

then any bathroom window must be closed.

>

>

>

> To enable air to enter the bathroom from the rest of the house, either

install louvers in the bathroom door or cut an inch from the bottom of the

bathroom door. Of course, bathroom sounds are likely to be heard beyond the

bathroom.

>

>

>

> If you have a really tight house, you must have a source of fresh air to

make up for the air you are exhausting. To have a well-ventilated house, fresh

air must reach every room in the house, which means installing a hole in the exterior

wall of each room having a window.

>

>

>

> It does no good for a fan to exhaust air if air is being restricted from

entering the bathroom, and it does no good to have exhaust fans in more than

one bathroom if no fresh air can enter those rooms you want to ventilate.

>

>

>

> In order to have variable fan speeds take care of different amounts of

air-exchange for the whole house, you must figure out how much air needs to be

moved and whether the fans you install will provide that volume of air-exchange.

>

>

>

> Norman Gauss

>

>

>

> From: iequality

[mailto:iequality ]

On Behalf Of snk1955@...

> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 3:00 PM

> To: iequality

> Subject: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems |

Breathe Easy: New fans do more

>

>

>

>

>

> What do you all think of this? Is this for real?

>

>

>

> <http://www.ebuild.com/articles/1634411.hwx/Q/advid.ENPN090111>

Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more than

just ventilate the bathroom.

>

>

>

> as air quality becomes increasingly important for owners of

super-insulated homes, one bathroom fan can free a whole house of off-gassing,

formaldehydes, chemicals, and humid air, manufacturers claim.

“More and more you’re hearing people say

‘Build tight and ventilate right,’â€Â

>

[Guest guest]

Will

No system that brings in air through leaks, and not an intended and properly designed fresh air subsystem, is a healthy home system. I have seldom seen a leakage path that I would accept as a proper source of 'fresh' air. When others are doing renovation I often get close so I can see the condition of floors, walls and ceilings. Cracks sure get dirty over time and, if they get wet, can sure grow mold and support insect growth!

I really believe that we could make HRVs (ERVs are not my favorite, for many reasons) that used much less energy and would be a real winner, total-cost-wise. Even present ones are usually winners in a heating or cooling climate.

Jim H. White SSC

Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more> > > > > > What do you all think of this? Is this for real?> > > > <http://www.ebuild.com/articles/1634411.hwx/Q/advid.ENPN090111> Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more than just ventilate the bathroom. > > > > as air quality becomes increasingly important for owners of super-insulated homes, one bathroom fan can free a whole house of off-gassing, formaldehydes, chemicals, and humid air, manufacturers claim. “More and more you’re hearing people say ‘Build tight and ventilate right,’â€>

[Guest guest]

Jim: Are cracks around windows and doors unhealthy leaks.  Unless one has super tight windows and doors, leakage is always going to occur. Norm Gauss From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Jim H. White SSCSent: Friday, September 02, 2011 11:40 AMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more WillNo system that brings in air through leaks, and not an intended and properly designed fresh air subsystem, is a healthy home system. I have seldom seen a leakage path that I would accept as a proper source of 'fresh' air. When others are doing renovation I often get close so I can see the condition of floors, walls and ceilings. Cracks sure get dirty over time and, if they get wet, can sure grow mold and support insect growth! I really believe that we could make HRVs (ERVs are not my favorite, for many reasons) that used much less energy and would be a real winner, total-cost-wise. Even present ones are usually winners in a heating or cooling climate.Jim H. White SSC Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more> > > > > > What do you all think of this? Is this for real?> > > > <http://www.ebuild.com/articles/1634411.hwx/Q/advid.ENPN090111> Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more than just ventilate the bathroom. > > > > as air quality becomes increasingly important for owners of super-insulated homes, one bathroom fan can free a whole house of off-gassing, formaldehydes, chemicals, and humid air, manufacturers claim. “More and more you’re hearing people say ‘Build tight and ventilate right,’â€Â>

[Guest guest]



Norm

Next time you get a chance, and depending on your available budget, either take a wipe sample from the not-easily-visible parts of an openable window and either look at it under a microscope or have it analyzed by a qualified laboratory. The velocity through cracks, as well as the available moisture, go through great ranges as the weather changes. For some of the time a portion of the surface of the gaps is damp and the velocities are low. Dirt capture is almost certain. If you do this tell us all about it!

One of the advantages of a well-designed and properly constructed/installed fresh air intake is that the velocities should be well above the range where a significant amount of deposition would take place, thus they tend to stay cleaner. (At 2 m/s {400FPM?} only boulders drop out.)

If the homeowner does not have a maintenance guide in hand, and lets the vermin and insect screens get filthy, all bets are off, of course. Houses need intelligent maintenance and care!

Jim

The answer to your question is no!!

Sealing of the gaps, on the inside, is always a good use of your time and effort. Old oil-based paint used to do a great job of crack sealing. Most of the gloss latex paints do a good enough job, but I love the use of the Lite style crack fillers (usually a quality latex paint base and a filler of hollow plastic bubbles, I believe). As you fill indoor cracks around trim, etc., the black lines disappear and the house looks magically cleaner. I find this task quite soul fulfilling but I am, by definition, perhaps, weird!

Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more> > > > > > What do you all think of this? Is this for real?> > > > <http://www.ebuild.com/articles/1634411.hwx/Q/advid.ENPN090111> Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more than just ventilate the bathroom. > > > > as air quality becomes increasingly important for owners of super-insulated homes, one bathroom fan can free a whole house of off-gassing, formaldehydes, chemicals, and humid air, manufacturers claim. “More and more you’re hearing people say ‘Build tight and ventilate right,’â€Â>

[Guest guest]

et. al.,Yes, adding a small duct to the return air duct of an existing FAU system in a home is an attractive low cost means of getting outdoor air into an energy efficient air-tight home. This approach takes advantage of the fact that a fan and supply air distribution ducting is already there.Our recent study of IAQ and ventilation in new homes in California, revealed that these systems, which we called "DOA" systems, for ducted outdoor air, did not perform well at all, the median delivery of outdoor air from these devices was just 0.01 air changes per hour. One reason for this poor performance is that the point of attachment of the outdoor air duct to the return air system was at the hallway central return can, just downstream of the air filter. This design did not provide very much negative pressure (low efficiency air filters) to draw very much air in when the FAU fan was operating, a median of just 38 cfm. Attaching the outdoor air duct at a location closer to the fan would be better.Perhaps a more important reason for the poor performance of these systems is that in these 108 California energy efficient homes, the FAU fan does not turn on much, just a median of 1.1 hours per day, so no mechanical outdoor air delivered for the remaining 22.9 hours. Some of these system had fan cycler timers, which insured that the FAU fan turned on for 20 minutes each hour, but with the low outdoor air flow rates, these systems still provided little outdoor air. Operating the FAU fan continuously would help, but this would be energy wasteful and expensive as the FAU fan consumes a lot of electricity to move a lot of air (e.g. 800 watts to move 2,000 cfm of which only a small percentage is the outdoor air.)The homes with HRVs or ERVs performed very well. These systems run 24 hours a day and have ductwork that is separate from the FAU ducting. Based on this, I recommend that energy efficient air-tight homes be equipped with fully ducted HRVs or ERVs that operate 24 hours a day.Depending on climate and the type of mechanical outdoor air system, the total cost for mechanical outdoor air systems is between $190 and $435 per year including capital, installation, and operation costs.See the attached presentation that I gave on mechanical outdoor air ventilation at the recent indoor air 2011 Conference, in Austin, TX.

Please find posted at our web page the final report of the Ventilation and IAQ in New Homes study. http://www.IEE-SF.comThis study involved 108 new homes in California ,and concludes that new homes are built relatively airtight, which in combination with the practice of many homeowners to not open windows as a result of concerns for noise, comfort, dust, security, etc., results in air contaminants with indoor sources such as formaldehyde, to exceed cancer and irritant guidelines.Homes with continuous mechanical outdoor air ventilation systems, such as heat recovery ventilators worked well to increase outdoor air exchange rates and lower indoor air contaminant concentrations, while intermittent mechanical systems interconnected with the forced air heating/cooling system did not perform well.Some of the main points of the California new home study:• new California homes are built relatively airtight to save energy• many homeowners never open there windows as a result of concerns for noise, comfort, dust, security, etc., • the outdoor air ventilation rates in these homes are very low which causes air contaminants with indoor sources, such as formaldehyde, to exceed cancer and irritant guidelines.• homes with continuous mechanical outdoor air ventilation systems, such as heat recovery ventilators worked well to increase outdoor air exchange rates and lower indoor air contaminant concentrations, while intermittent mechanical systems interconnected with the forced air heating/cooling system did not perform well.• homes can be built to be BOTH healthy and energy efficient, through use of energy efficient heat recovery ventilation systems and selection of low emitting building materials. • homes need to be, first and foremost, built to provide healthy environments, while striving for energy efficiency and sustainability• to improve indoor air quality in homes the California Building Code now requires all new homes to have a mechanical outdoor air ventilation system.• in addition, the California Air Resources Board has adopted new regulations limiting the emission rate of formaldehyde from composite wood products such as particle board and medium density fiberboard. Bottom line: health trumps energy, but with both goals pursued we can have healthy and energy efficient sustainable homes.Bud Offermann PE CIHPrincipal InvestigatorARB Ventilation and IAQ in New Homes StudyPresidentIndoor Environmental Engineering1448 Pine Street, Suite 103San Francisco, CA 94109Office:Cell:Fax: E-mail: Offermann@...Web Site: http://www.IEE-SF.com On Sep 2, 2011, at 8:07 AM, sagefarm@... wrote:

Dear Shell: While there might be benefits to conditioning the increased outdoor air for ventilation. If you have a forced hot air heating system, the return ductwork can merely be extended to include a connection to the outdoors. I disagree with the oft stated requirement that this outdoor air source be dampered to prevent overventilation, as this condition is more effectively dealt with by effective air sealing at the upper levels of the structure. If one considers a hot air balloon, it is wide open at the bottom but cold air doesn't rush in as no air is leaving at the top to allow this to happen. Also, if it is cold enough that the furnace is warming the recirculated home air, the outdoor air will be heated as well, and if the furnace is not in operation, the cold outdoor air will be tempered by mixing with the warmish air already in the ducts. This approach has worked very well in my home in Concord, MA for many years. This way when my exhaust fans are in operation they don't need to create cold drafts near the windows and operate against less resistance and therefore more more air than if the pathway to the outdoors did not exist. Any questions? Sincerely, W. Bearg, PELife Energy Associateswww.LifeEnergyAssoc.com20 Darton StreetConcord, MA 01742To: iequality Sent: Friday, September 2, 2011 10:40:16 AMSubject: RE: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more

I have inquired about retrofitting my

house with fresh air make up, but found it not cheap or simple at all. You have

to heat cold air and condition hot or humid air, and/or have an automatic shut

off for when the air is too hot or too cold, making the whole thing expensive

and complicated. Maybe it works great in places with perfect weather year

round, but those places probably have their windows open anyway.

Shell BleiweissLaw Offices of Shell J. BleiweissEnvironmental and OSHA LawOffices in Chicago

and Barrington, Illinois (direct) (general)sbleiweiss@...http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of midsouthbuilders

Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011

9:06 AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Check out

Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more

ASHRAE 62.2-2010 calls for the use of energy recovery

ventilation(ERV) or heat recovery ventilation (HRV) or Fresh Air Supply

Ventilation (FAV) fans for residential construction. This can be something as

simple as a Panasonic bathroom ERV or an HVAC based system. I much prefer an

HVAC based systems (Honeywell) so that air can be filtered and better

conditioned before entry into the living space. ERV/HRV/ERVs have been proven

to significantly improve residential IEQ.

As cost effective and beneficial as they are, it's ridiculous not to include

them in residential design.

Will

>

> This is a gross oversimplification:

>

>

>

> “one bathroom fan can free a whole house of off-gassing,

formaldehydes, chemicals, and humid airâ€Â

>

>

>

> If you live in a one-room studio apartment, this could work if you have

good air flow from the living space into the bathroom.

>

>

>

> If you have a tight multi-room house with no forced-air ducts (e.g. with

base-board heating), ventilating the entire house is difficult. These are

primarily bathroom fans, not whole-house fans.

>

>

>

> If the exhaust fan is installed only in the bathroom, it can pump air out

of the bathroom assuming that a window is open to allow fresh air to enter. To

enable the fan to ventilate more than just the bathroom, there must be a way

for air to enter from the rest of the house into that room. If this is done,

then any bathroom window must be closed.

>

>

>

> To enable air to enter the bathroom from the rest of the house, either

install louvers in the bathroom door or cut an inch from the bottom of the

bathroom door. Of course, bathroom sounds are likely to be heard beyond the

bathroom.

>

>

>

> If you have a really tight house, you must have a source of fresh air to

make up for the air you are exhausting. To have a well-ventilated house, fresh

air must reach every room in the house, which means installing a hole in the exterior

wall of each room having a window.

>

>

>

> It does no good for a fan to exhaust air if air is being restricted from

entering the bathroom, and it does no good to have exhaust fans in more than

one bathroom if no fresh air can enter those rooms you want to ventilate.

>

>

>

> In order to have variable fan speeds take care of different amounts of

air-exchange for the whole house, you must figure out how much air needs to be

moved and whether the fans you install will provide that volume of air-exchange.

>

>

>

> Norman Gauss

>

>

>

> From: iequality

[mailto:iequality ]

On Behalf Of snk1955@...

> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 3:00 PM

> To: iequality

> Subject: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems |

Breathe Easy: New fans do more

>

>

>

>

>

> What do you all think of this? Is this for real?

>

>

>

> <http://www.ebuild.com/articles/1634411.hwx/Q/advid.ENPN090111>

Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more than

just ventilate the bathroom.

>

>

>

> as air quality becomes increasingly important for owners of

super-insulated homes, one bathroom fan can free a whole house of off-gassing,

formaldehydes, chemicals, and humid air, manufacturers claim.

“More and more you’re hearing people say

‘Build tight and ventilate right,’â€Â

>

1 of 1 File(s)

EC and IAQ Offermann Vent.ppt

[Guest guest]

Well, certainly not the type of residential mechanical outdoor air system we would recommend. Same goes for the cheapest type, which is a continously running bathroom fan.I consider all unbalanced exhaust type outdoor air mechanical systems as being "potentially" unhygienic, and thus not advisable. In addition should you wish to filter the outdoor air, you cannot do that with that type system.

Bud Offermann PE CIHPresidentIndoor Environmental Engineering1448 Pine Street, Suite 103San Francisco, CA 94109Office:Cell:Fax: E-mail: Offermann@...Web Site: http://www.IEE-SF.com

Bud, great info for us, thanx.

Can you comment on the type of device first asked about? It is installed on a basement wall.

It vents out air, which is collected from the basement at floor level, then exhausts it outdoors at the top of the foundation wall, at ground level.

It gets makeup from 'anywhere' available: upstairs, holes in foundation, penetrations, chimney chase to attic, mechanical chases to wall cavities and upper levels, openings to adjacent crawls and closets, and just about anywhere ther is a path of least resistance.

> > >

> > > This is a gross oversimplification:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ââ≠¬Å"one bathroom fan can free a whole house of off-gassing, formaldehydes, chemicals, and humid airââ≠¬Âˇ

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > If you live in a one-room studio apartment, this could work if you have good air flow from the living space into the bathroom.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > If you have a tight multi-room house with no forced-air ducts (e.g. with base-board heating), ventilating the entire house is difficult. These are primarily bathroom fans, not whole-house fans.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > If the exhaust fan is installed only in the bathroom, it can pump air out of the bathroom assuming that a window is open to allow fresh air to enter. To enable the fan to ventilate more than just the bathroom, there must be a way for air to enter from the rest of the house into that room. If this is done, then any bathroom window must be closed.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > To enable air to enter the bathroom from the rest of the house, either install louvers in the bathroom door or cut an inch from the bottom of the bathroom door. Of course, bathroom sounds are likely to be heard beyond the bathroom.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > If you have a really tight house, you must have a source of fresh air to make up for the air you are exhausting. To have a well-ventilated house, fresh air must reach every room in the house, which means installing a hole in the exterior wall of each room having a window.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > It does no good for a fan to exhaust air if air is being restricted from entering the bathroom, and it does no good to have exhaust fans in more than one bathroom if no fresh air can enter those rooms you want to ventilate.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > In order to have variable fan speeds take care of different amounts of air-exchange for the whole house, you must figure out how much air needs to be moved and whether the fans you install will provide that volume of air-exchange.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Norman Gauss

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of snk1955@

> > > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 3:00 PM

> > > To: iequality

> > > Subject: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > What do you all think of this? Is this for real?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > <http://www.ebuild.com/articles/1634411.hwx/Q/advid.ENPN090111> Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more than just ventilate the bathroom.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > as air quality becomes increasingly important for owners of super-insulated homes, one bathroom fan can free a whole house of off-gassing, formaldehydes, chemicals, and humid air, manufacturers claim. ââ≠¬Å"More and more youââ≠¬â≥¢re hearing people say ââ≠¬Ë˛Build tight and ventilate right,ââ≠¬â≥¢Ã¢â≠¬Âˇ

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

We have hot water baseboard heat, forced

air only for AC, and we have a merv 10 filter on that duct system as well. We

run it 24/7. So if we ducted outdoor air into our duct system it wouldn’t be

heated at all, other  than mixing with either  room temperature air or

conditioned air. Also, our AC units are barely able to cool sufficiently in

really hot weather (90’s), so I wouldn’t want to be piping outdoor air into the

cooled air on hot days. So it seems to be this would  be a problem much of the

year, heating season and the hotter summer days.

Shell Bleiweiss

Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss

Environmental and OSHA Law

Offices in Chicago

and Barrington, Illinois

(direct)

(general)

sbleiweiss@...

http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com

From:

iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of sagefarm@...

Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011

10:07 AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Re: Check

out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more

Dear Shell:

While there might be benefits to

conditioning the increased outdoor air for ventilation. If you have a

forced hot air heating system, the return ductwork can merely be extended to

include a connection to the outdoors.

I disagree with the oft stated

requirement that this outdoor air source be dampered to prevent

overventilation, as this condition is more effectively dealt with by effective

air sealing at the upper levels of the structure.

If one considers a hot air balloon, it is

wide open at the bottom but cold air doesn't rush in as no air is leaving at

the top to allow this to happen.

Also, if it is cold enough that the

furnace is warming the recirculated home air, the outdoor air will be heated as

well, and if the furnace is not in operation, the cold outdoor air will be

tempered by mixing with the warmish air already in the ducts.

This approach has worked very well in my

home in Concord, MA for many years.

This way when my exhaust fans are in

operation they don't need to create cold drafts near the windows and operate

against less resistance and therefore more more air than if the pathway to the

outdoors did not exist.

Any questions?

Sincerely,

W. Bearg, PE

Life Energy Associates

www.LifeEnergyAssoc.com

20 Darton Street

Concord, MA

01742

From: " Shell

Bleiweiss "

To: iequality

Sent: Friday, September 2, 2011

10:40:16 AM

Subject: RE: Re: Check

out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more

I have inquired about retrofitting my house with fresh air make up,

but found it not cheap or simple at all. You have to heat cold air and

condition hot or humid air, and/or have an automatic shut off for when the air

is too hot or too cold, making the whole thing expensive and complicated. Maybe

it works great in places with perfect weather year round, but those places

probably have their windows open anyway.

Shell Bleiweiss

Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss

Environmental and OSHA Law

Offices in Chicago and Barrington, Illinois

(direct)

(general)

sbleiweiss@...

http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com

From:

iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of midsouthbuilders

Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011

9:06 AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Check out

Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more

ASHRAE 62.2-2010 calls for the use of energy recovery

ventilation(ERV) or heat recovery ventilation (HRV) or Fresh Air Supply

Ventilation (FAV) fans for residential construction. This can be something as

simple as a Panasonic bathroom ERV or an HVAC based system. I much prefer an

HVAC based systems (Honeywell) so that air can be filtered and better

conditioned before entry into the living space. ERV/HRV/ERVs have been proven

to significantly improve residential IEQ.

As cost effective and beneficial as they are, it's ridiculous not to include

them in residential design.

Will

>

> This is a gross oversimplification:

>

>

>

> “one bathroom fan can free a whole house of off-gassing, formaldehydes,

chemicals, and humid airâ€Â

>

>

>

> If you live in a one-room studio apartment, this could work if you have

good air flow from the living space into the bathroom.

>

>

>

> If you have a tight multi-room house with no forced-air ducts (e.g. with

base-board heating), ventilating the entire house is difficult. These are

primarily bathroom fans, not whole-house fans.

>

>

>

> If the exhaust fan is installed only in the bathroom, it can pump air out

of the bathroom assuming that a window is open to allow fresh air to enter. To

enable the fan to ventilate more than just the bathroom, there must be a way

for air to enter from the rest of the house into that room. If this is done,

then any bathroom window must be closed.

>

>

>

> To enable air to enter the bathroom from the rest of the house, either

install louvers in the bathroom door or cut an inch from the bottom of the

bathroom door. Of course, bathroom sounds are likely to be heard beyond the

bathroom.

>

>

>

> If you have a really tight house, you must have a source of fresh air to

make up for the air you are exhausting. To have a well-ventilated house, fresh

air must reach every room in the house, which means installing a hole in the

exterior wall of each room having a window.

>

>

>

> It does no good for a fan to exhaust air if air is being restricted from

entering the bathroom, and it does no good to have exhaust fans in more than

one bathroom if no fresh air can enter those rooms you want to ventilate.

>

>

>

> In order to have variable fan speeds take care of different amounts of

air-exchange for the whole house, you must figure out how much air needs to be

moved and whether the fans you install will provide that volume of

air-exchange.

>

>

>

> Norman Gauss

>

>

>

> From: iequality

[mailto:iequality ]

On Behalf Of snk1955@...

> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 3:00 PM

> To: iequality

> Subject: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems |

Breathe Easy: New fans do more

>

>

>

>

>

> What do you all think of this? Is this for real?

>

>

>

> <http://www.ebuild.com/articles/1634411.hwx/Q/advid.ENPN090111>

Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more than

just ventilate the bathroom.

>

>

>

> as air quality becomes increasingly important for owners of

super-insulated homes, one bathroom fan can free a whole house of off-gassing,

formaldehydes, chemicals, and humid air, manufacturers claim. “More and more

you’re hearing people say ‘Build tight and ventilate right,’â€Â

>

[Guest guest]

Shell: There is no alternative to outside air for getting rid of stale indoor air.  You cannot have quality indoor without some method of piping in outdoor air.  If you have no HRV or ERV, admittedly you will lose some energy, but that is better than breathing stale indoor air 24/7.  People don’t realize that merely by exhaling indoors you are polluting the indoor air.  Your breath is loaded with CO2 and humidity.  Somehow this must be replaced with fresh outdoor air. Norm Gauss From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Shell BleiweissSent: Friday, September 02, 2011 4:30 PMTo: iequality Subject: RE: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more We have hot water baseboard heat, forced air only for AC, and we have a merv 10 filter on that duct system as well. We run it 24/7. So if we ducted outdoor air into our duct system it wouldn’t be heated at all, other than mixing with either room temperature air or conditioned air. Also, our AC units are barely able to cool sufficiently in really hot weather (90’s), so I wouldn’t want to be piping outdoor air into the cooled air on hot days. So it seems to be this would be a problem much of the year, heating season and the hotter summer days. Shell BleiweissLaw Offices of Shell J. BleiweissEnvironmental and OSHA LawOffices in Chicago and Barrington, Illinois (direct) (general)sbleiweiss@...http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of sagefarm@...Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 10:07 AMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more Dear Shell: While there might be benefits to conditioning the increased outdoor air for ventilation. If you have a forced hot air heating system, the return ductwork can merely be extended to include a connection to the outdoors. I disagree with the oft stated requirement that this outdoor air source be dampered to prevent overventilation, as this condition is more effectively dealt with by effective air sealing at the upper levels of the structure. If one considers a hot air balloon, it is wide open at the bottom but cold air doesn't rush in as no air is leaving at the top to allow this to happen. Also, if it is cold enough that the furnace is warming the recirculated home air, the outdoor air will be heated as well, and if the furnace is not in operation, the cold outdoor air will be tempered by mixing with the warmish air already in the ducts. This approach has worked very well in my home in Concord, MA for many years. This way when my exhaust fans are in operation they don't need to create cold drafts near the windows and operate against less resistance and therefore more more air than if the pathway to the outdoors did not exist. Any questions? Sincerely, W. Bearg, PELife Energy Associateswww.LifeEnergyAssoc.com20 Darton StreetConcord, MA 01742To: iequality Sent: Friday, September 2, 2011 10:40:16 AMSubject: RE: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more I have inquired about retrofitting my house with fresh air make up, but found it not cheap or simple at all. You have to heat cold air and condition hot or humid air, and/or have an automatic shut off for when the air is too hot or too cold, making the whole thing expensive and complicated. Maybe it works great in places with perfect weather year round, but those places probably have their windows open anyway. Shell BleiweissLaw Offices of Shell J. BleiweissEnvironmental and OSHA LawOffices in Chicago and Barrington, Illinois (direct) (general)sbleiweiss@...http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of midsouthbuildersSent: Friday, September 02, 2011 9:06 AMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more ASHRAE 62.2-2010 calls for the use of energy recovery ventilation(ERV) or heat recovery ventilation (HRV) or Fresh Air Supply Ventilation (FAV) fans for residential construction. This can be something as simple as a Panasonic bathroom ERV or an HVAC based system. I much prefer an HVAC based systems (Honeywell) so that air can be filtered and better conditioned before entry into the living space. ERV/HRV/ERVs have been proven to significantly improve residential IEQ. As cost effective and beneficial as they are, it's ridiculous not to include them in residential design.Will>> This is a gross oversimplification:> > > > “one bathroom fan can free a whole house of off-gassing, formaldehydes, chemicals, and humid airâ€Â> > > > If you live in a one-room studio apartment, this could work if you have good air flow from the living space into the bathroom.> > > > If you have a tight multi-room house with no forced-air ducts (e.g. with base-board heating), ventilating the entire house is difficult. These are primarily bathroom fans, not whole-house fans.> > > > If the exhaust fan is installed only in the bathroom, it can pump air out of the bathroom assuming that a window is open to allow fresh air to enter. To enable the fan to ventilate more than just the bathroom, there must be a way for air to enter from the rest of the house into that room. If this is done, then any bathroom window must be closed.> > > > To enable air to enter the bathroom from the rest of the house, either install louvers in the bathroom door or cut an inch from the bottom of the bathroom door. Of course, bathroom sounds are likely to be heard beyond the bathroom.> > > > If you have a really tight house, you must have a source of fresh air to make up for the air you are exhausting. To have a well-ventilated house, fresh air must reach every room in the house, which means installing a hole in the exterior wall of each room having a window. > > > > It does no good for a fan to exhaust air if air is being restricted from entering the bathroom, and it does no good to have exhaust fans in more than one bathroom if no fresh air can enter those rooms you want to ventilate.> > > > In order to have variable fan speeds take care of different amounts of air-exchange for the whole house, you must figure out how much air needs to be moved and whether the fans you install will provide that volume of air-exchange.> > > > Norman Gauss> > > > From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of snk1955@...> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 3:00 PM> To: iequality > Subject: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more> > > > > > What do you all think of this? Is this for real?> > > > <http://www.ebuild.com/articles/1634411.hwx/Q/advid.ENPN090111> Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more than just ventilate the bathroom. > > > > as air quality becomes increasingly important for owners of super-insulated homes, one bathroom fan can free a whole house of off-gassing, formaldehydes, chemicals, and humid air, manufacturers claim. “More and more you’re hearing people say ‘Build tight and ventilate right,’â€Â>

[Guest guest]

This device is responsible for many moisture troubled houses or small buildings as it often used in humid weather and draws in air with a Dew Point Temperature that is well above some internal surface temperatures. It is quite profitable and sold to those who know nothing about building science; I tried to have its claims debunked but the manufacturers political clout was better than mine.

It is a con job at its best and should almost never be used.

Our own parish used it in the church and parish hall and both buildings saw a severe increase in moisture damage after it was put into use. I was told that I could not know as much as the sellers and manufacturers because they were rich and I was not. Some attitude, no?

Jim

Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you all think of this? Is this for real?> > > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.ebuild.com/articles/1634411.hwx/Q/advid.ENPN090111> Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more than just ventilate the bathroom. > > > > > > > > > > > > as air quality becomes increasingly important for owners of super-insulated homes, one bathroom fan can free a whole house of off-gassing, formaldehydes, chemicals, and humid air, manufacturers claim. â€Å"More and more you’re hearing people say ‘Build tight and ventilate right,’â€Â> > >> > > > > > > > > >>

[Guest guest]

Norm,

There's a hidden assumption in your statement that outdoor air is " fresh. " It isn't always. And as the world has become more polluted the " freshness " of outdoor air has significantly decreased.

Perhaps a better word to describe replacing the stale indoor air is with " different " air, or air from a " different location. " Which, again, may or not be " fresh. " But at least it would " change " and hopefully " reduce " whatever is accumulating and making the air stale.

Sometimes air exchanges make the occupants worse. Like with the other discussion here about where make-up air comes from and how it can be altered when exhaust fans are running.

It's complicated and often takes many disciplines communicating freely to accurately describe what is, what should be, and how to get there without replacing one problem with a new one.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Shell:

There is no alternative to outside air for getting rid of stale indoor air. You cannot have quality indoor without some method of piping in outdoor air. If you have no HRV or ERV, admittedly you will lose some energy, but that is better than breathing stale indoor air 24/7. People don’t realize that merely by exhaling indoors you are polluting the indoor air. Your breath is loaded with CO2 and humidity. Somehow this must be replaced with fresh outdoor air.

Norm Gauss

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Shell Bleiweiss

Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 4:30 PM

To: iequality

Subject: RE: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more

The following section of this message contains a file attachment

prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.

If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system,

you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.

If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

---- File information -----------

File: DEFAULT.BMP

Date: 16 Jun 2009, 0:10

Size: 358 bytes.

Type: Unknown

[Guest guest]

I understand the bad quality of indoor air and the benefits of fresh (good quality) make up air. That is why we open windows whenever we can (thankfully we have good quality outdoor air). But with plain outdoor air added as a supplement through a duct we are going to be uncomfortably warm on hot days, and I'm not sure what the drafts/unbalanced temperatures will feel like in the house during heating season (make up air through forced air ducts while heat coming from baseboards). Seems to me we would either need to heat make up air in cold weather (extra expense at front end and operating) or shut down system in cold weather (extra expense up front and not really getting the job done either.) This seems more doable for houses with forced air and heat.Shell Bleiweiss

Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss

Environmental and OSHA Law

Chicago and Barrington, Illinois

sbleiweiss@...

http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com

Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 7:14 PMTo: iequality Subject: RE: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more

Shell: There is no alternative to outside air for getting rid of stale indoor air. You cannot have quality indoor without some method of piping in outdoor air. If you have no HRV or ERV, admittedly you will lose some energy, but that is better than breathing stale indoor air 24/7. People don't realize that merely by exhaling indoors you are polluting the indoor air. Your breath is loaded with CO2 and humidity. Somehow this must be replaced with fresh outdoor air. Norm Gauss From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Shell BleiweissSent: Friday, September 02, 2011 4:30 PMTo: iequality Subject: RE: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more We have hot water baseboard heat, forced air only for AC, and we have a merv 10 filter on that duct system as well. We run it 24/7. So if we ducted outdoor air into our duct system it wouldn't be heated at all, other than mixing with either room temperature air or conditioned air. Also, our AC units are barely able to cool sufficiently in really hot weather (90's), so I wouldn't want to be piping outdoor air into the cooled air on hot days. So it seems to be this would be a problem much of the year, heating season and the hotter summer days. Shell BleiweissLaw Offices of Shell J. BleiweissEnvironmental and OSHA LawOffices in Chicago and Barrington, Illinois (direct) (general)sbleiweiss@...http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of sagefarm@...Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 10:07 AMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more Dear Shell: While there might be benefits to conditioning the increased outdoor air for ventilation. If you have a forced hot air heating system, the return ductwork can merely be extended to include a connection to the outdoors. I disagree with the oft stated requirement that this outdoor air source be dampered to prevent overventilation, as this condition is more effectively dealt with by effective air sealing at the upper levels of the structure. If one considers a hot air balloon, it is wide open at the bottom but cold air doesn't rush in as no air is leaving at the top to allow this to happen. Also, if it is cold enough that the furnace is warming the recirculated home air, the outdoor air will be heated as well, and if the furnace is not in operation, the cold outdoor air will be tempered by mixing with the warmish air already in the ducts. This approach has worked very well in my home in Concord, MA for many years. This way when my exhaust fans are in operation they don't need to create cold drafts near the windows and operate against less resistance and therefore more more air than if the pathway to the outdoors did not exist. Any questions? Sincerely, W. Bearg, PELife Energy Associateswww.LifeEnergyAssoc.com20 Darton StreetConcord, MA 01742To: iequality Sent: Friday, September 2, 2011 10:40:16 AMSubject: RE: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more I have inquired about retrofitting my house with fresh air make up, but found it not cheap or simple at all. You have to heat cold air and condition hot or humid air, and/or have an automatic shut off for when the air is too hot or too cold, making the whole thing expensive and complicated. Maybe it works great in places with perfect weather year round, but those places probably have their windows open anyway. Shell BleiweissLaw Offices of Shell J. BleiweissEnvironmental and OSHA LawOffices in Chicago and Barrington, Illinois (direct) (general)sbleiweiss@...http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of midsouthbuildersSent: Friday, September 02, 2011 9:06 AMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more ASHRAE 62.2-2010 calls for the use of energy recovery ventilation(ERV) or heat recovery ventilation (HRV) or Fresh Air Supply Ventilation (FAV) fans for residential construction. This can be something as simple as a Panasonic bathroom ERV or an HVAC based system. I much prefer an HVAC based systems (Honeywell) so that air can be filtered and better conditioned before entry into the living space. ERV/HRV/ERVs have been proven to significantly improve residential IEQ. As cost effective and beneficial as they are, it's ridiculous not to include them in residential design.Will>> This is a gross oversimplification:> > > > â€oone bathroom fan can free a whole house of off-gassing, formaldehydes, chemicals, and humid airâ€> > > > If you live in a one-room studio apartment, this could work if you have good air flow from the living space into the bathroom.> > > > If you have a tight multi-room house with no forced-air ducts (e.g. with base-board heating), ventilating the entire house is difficult. These are primarily bathroom fans, not whole-house fans.> > > > If the exhaust fan is installed only in the bathroom, it can pump air out of the bathroom assuming that a window is open to allow fresh air to enter. To enable the fan to ventilate more than just the bathroom, there must be a way for air to enter from the rest of the house into that room. If this is done, then any bathroom window must be closed.> > > > To enable air to enter the bathroom from the rest of the house, either install louvers in the bathroom door or cut an inch from the bottom of the bathroom door. Of course, bathroom sounds are likely to be heard beyond the bathroom.> > > > If you have a really tight house, you must have a source of fresh air to make up for the air you are exhausting. To have a well-ventilated house, fresh air must reach every room in the house, which means installing a hole in the exterior wall of each room having a window. > > > > It does no good for a fan to exhaust air if air is being restricted from entering the bathroom, and it does no good to have exhaust fans in more than one bathroom if no fresh air can enter those rooms you want to ventilate.> > > > In order to have variable fan speeds take care of different amounts of air-exchange for the whole house, you must figure out how much air needs to be moved and whether the fans you install will provide that volume of air-exchange.> > > > Norman Gauss> > > > From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of snk1955@...> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 3:00 PM> To: iequality > Subject: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more> > > > > > What do you all think of this? Is this for real?> > > > <http://www.ebuild.com/articles/1634411.hwx/Q/advid.ENPN090111> Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more than just ventilate the bathroom. > > > > as air quality becomes increasingly important for owners of super-insulated homes, one bathroom fan can free a whole house of off-gassing, formaldehydes, chemicals, and humid air, manufacturers claim. â€oMore and more you’re hearing people say â€~Build tight and ventilate right,’â€>

[Guest guest]

Carl: I have to admit that simply pumping in outdoor air is a simplification. The strategy introduces new problems if the outdoor air is more polluted than the indoor air. There is also the problem of humidity. On Southern California beaches when the fog and low overcast is in full force, the outdoor humidity is frequently 100 %. Since recommended indoor humidities range from 30 to 50%, making indoor air close to 100% is not what you want to do. These are conditions where dehumidifiers are useful. These devices are noisy and the condensed water needs to be emptied frequently. Do you suppose that using compressed air that is filtered before being compressed (similar to what submarines do?) would be a useful strategy? Norm Gauss From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Carl E. GrimesSent: Friday, September 02, 2011 8:30 PMTo: iequality Subject: RE: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more Norm, There's a hidden assumption in your statement that outdoor air is " fresh. " It isn't always. And as the world has become more polluted the " freshness " of outdoor air has significantly decreased. Perhaps a better word to describe replacing the stale indoor air is with " different " air, or air from a " different location. " Which, again, may or not be " fresh. " But at least it would " change " and hopefully " reduce " whatever is accumulating and making the air stale. Sometimes air exchanges make the occupants worse. Like with the other discussion here about where make-up air comes from and how it can be altered when exhaust fans are running. It's complicated and often takes many disciplines communicating freely to accurately describe what is, what should be, and how to get there without replacing one problem with a new one. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC ----- Shell: There is no alternative to outside air for getting rid of stale indoor air. You cannot have quality indoor without some method of piping in outdoor air. If you have no HRV or ERV, admittedly you will lose some energy, but that is better than breathing stale indoor air 24/7. People don’t realize that merely by exhaling indoors you are polluting the indoor air. Your breath is loaded with CO2 and humidity. Somehow this must be replaced with fresh outdoor air. Norm Gauss From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Shell BleiweissSent: Friday, September 02, 2011 4:30 PMTo: iequality Subject: RE: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more

[Guest guest]

Shell: Have you considered installing a bigger forced-air AC unit?  If you are barely able to keep indoor temperatures cool enough during hot weather without any fresh air, to me this is an indicator that your AC unit is too small.  When I moved into my newly constructed home, I found that the AC/heating system had no source of fresh air.  A Heating and AC company in my local area was advertising upgrades and showing a pipe that brought in fresh air.  I had them look at my system and they said that it was possible to install a variable speed blower that runs 24/7 with a fresh air pipe extending to the outdoors.  Since I live in a fairly dry area, there was no need to control the humidity.  I had the company design the system so that even with the hot outside air coming in, the AC was powerful enough to do its job.  As an added feature, I had them install HEPA filters. Another strategy is to mount a window air conditioner as a supplement to your building’s AC?  If you do this, you will be adding fresh air to your indoor area as well as making it cooler.  Of course, window AC units are often noisy.  But for cooling you would need to run the window unit mainly on the very hottest days.  The fresh air aspect however is something to look into.  There may be window units that will blow in fresh air without the cooling.  You have to balance the need for fresh air with the need for quiet operation.  Years ago, I had one on which an electrostatic filter was mounted, so I was able to filter out particulate matter. Norm Gauss From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Shell BleiweissSent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 7:27 AMTo: iequality Subject: RE: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more I understand the bad quality of indoor air and the benefits of fresh (good quality) make up air. That is why we open windows whenever we can (thankfully we have good quality outdoor air). But with plain outdoor air added as a supplement through a duct we are going to be uncomfortably warm on hot days, and I'm not sure what the drafts/unbalanced temperatures will feel like in the house during heating season (make up air through forced air ducts while heat coming from baseboards). Seems to me we would either need to heat make up air in cold weather (extra expense at front end and operating) or shut down system in cold weather (extra expense up front and not really getting the job done either.) This seems more doable for houses with forced air and heat.Shell BleiweissLaw Offices of Shell J. BleiweissEnvironmental and OSHA LawChicago and Barrington, Illinoissbleiweiss@...http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 7:14 PMTo: iequality Subject: RE: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more Shell: There is no alternative to outside air for getting rid of stale indoor air. You cannot have quality indoor without some method of piping in outdoor air. If you have no HRV or ERV, admittedly you will lose some energy, but that is better than breathing stale indoor air 24/7. People don't realize that merely by exhaling indoors you are polluting the indoor air. Your breath is loaded with CO2 and humidity. Somehow this must be replaced with fresh outdoor air. Norm Gauss From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Shell BleiweissSent: Friday, September 02, 2011 4:30 PMTo: iequality Subject: RE: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more We have hot water baseboard heat, forced air only for AC, and we have a merv 10 filter on that duct system as well. We run it 24/7. So if we ducted outdoor air into our duct system it wouldn't be heated at all, other than mixing with either room temperature air or conditioned air. Also, our AC units are barely able to cool sufficiently in really hot weather (90's), so I wouldn't want to be piping outdoor air into the cooled air on hot days. So it seems to be this would be a problem much of the year, heating season and the hotter summer days. Shell BleiweissLaw Offices of Shell J. BleiweissEnvironmental and OSHA LawOffices in Chicago and Barrington, Illinois (direct) (general)sbleiweiss@...http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of sagefarm@...Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 10:07 AMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more Dear Shell: While there might be benefits to conditioning the increased outdoor air for ventilation. If you have a forced hot air heating system, the return ductwork can merely be extended to include a connection to the outdoors. I disagree with the oft stated requirement that this outdoor air source be dampered to prevent overventilation, as this condition is more effectively dealt with by effective air sealing at the upper levels of the structure. If one considers a hot air balloon, it is wide open at the bottom but cold air doesn't rush in as no air is leaving at the top to allow this to happen. Also, if it is cold enough that the furnace is warming the recirculated home air, the outdoor air will be heated as well, and if the furnace is not in operation, the cold outdoor air will be tempered by mixing with the warmish air already in the ducts. This approach has worked very well in my home in Concord, MA for many years. This way when my exhaust fans are in operation they don't need to create cold drafts near the windows and operate against less resistance and therefore more more air than if the pathway to the outdoors did not exist. Any questions? Sincerely, W. Bearg, PELife Energy Associateswww.LifeEnergyAssoc.com20 Darton StreetConcord, MA 01742To: iequality Sent: Friday, September 2, 2011 10:40:16 AMSubject: RE: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more I have inquired about retrofitting my house with fresh air make up, but found it not cheap or simple at all. You have to heat cold air and condition hot or humid air, and/or have an automatic shut off for when the air is too hot or too cold, making the whole thing expensive and complicated. Maybe it works great in places with perfect weather year round, but those places probably have their windows open anyway. Shell BleiweissLaw Offices of Shell J. BleiweissEnvironmental and OSHA LawOffices in Chicago and Barrington, Illinois (direct) (general)sbleiweiss@...http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of midsouthbuildersSent: Friday, September 02, 2011 9:06 AMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more ASHRAE 62.2-2010 calls for the use of energy recovery ventilation(ERV) or heat recovery ventilation (HRV) or Fresh Air Supply Ventilation (FAV) fans for residential construction. This can be something as simple as a Panasonic bathroom ERV or an HVAC based system. I much prefer an HVAC based systems (Honeywell) so that air can be filtered and better conditioned before entry into the living space. ERV/HRV/ERVs have been proven to significantly improve residential IEQ. As cost effective and beneficial as they are, it's ridiculous not to include them in residential design.Will>> This is a gross oversimplification:> > > > â€oone bathroom fan can free a whole house of off-gassing, formaldehydes, chemicals, and humid airâ€Â> > > > If you live in a one-room studio apartment, this could work if you have good air flow from the living space into the bathroom.> > > > If you have a tight multi-room house with no forced-air ducts (e.g. with base-board heating), ventilating the entire house is difficult. These are primarily bathroom fans, not whole-house fans.> > > > If the exhaust fan is installed only in the bathroom, it can pump air out of the bathroom assuming that a window is open to allow fresh air to enter. To enable the fan to ventilate more than just the bathroom, there must be a way for air to enter from the rest of the house into that room. If this is done, then any bathroom window must be closed.> > > > To enable air to enter the bathroom from the rest of the house, either install louvers in the bathroom door or cut an inch from the bottom of the bathroom door. Of course, bathroom sounds are likely to be heard beyond the bathroom.> > > > If you have a really tight house, you must have a source of fresh air to make up for the air you are exhausting. To have a well-ventilated house, fresh air must reach every room in the house, which means installing a hole in the exterior wall of each room having a window. > > > > It does no good for a fan to exhaust air if air is being restricted from entering the bathroom, and it does no good to have exhaust fans in more than one bathroom if no fresh air can enter those rooms you want to ventilate.> > > > In order to have variable fan speeds take care of different amounts of air-exchange for the whole house, you must figure out how much air needs to be moved and whether the fans you install will provide that volume of air-exchange.> > > > Norman Gauss> > > > From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of snk1955@...> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 3:00 PM> To: iequality > Subject: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more> > > > > > What do you all think of this? Is this for real?> > > > <http://www.ebuild.com/articles/1634411.hwx/Q/advid.ENPN090111> Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more than just ventilate the bathroom. > > > > as air quality becomes increasingly important for owners of super-insulated homes, one bathroom fan can free a whole house of off-gassing, formaldehydes, chemicals, and humid air, manufacturers claim. â€oMore and more you’re hearing people say â€~Build tight and ventilate right,’â€Â>

[Guest guest]

Will

The church is about 150 years old and the latest heating system was put in about 15 years ago (one of the early high-efficiency units). Old ducting was used, unchanged. The accountant who was in charge of the project said that they did not want cold drafts so no fresh air intake was used.

The ground is perpetually wet and slopes towards the building, due to settlement. The group responsible for ground maintenance did not want the original slope re-introduced because they did not want the looks to change (the settlement was gradual and not noticed).

I suggested a good dehumidifier in the basement of both buildings, with perhaps a second one in the church proper if needed and if we could find a quiet-enough one. The Anglican Church Woman's group went to the local building store and they said that the exhaust system had to take the heavy, damp air out (damp air is, of course lighter than dry air at the same temperature) and that a dehumidifier would cost too much to run. They ran a few charity events to buy these infamous exhaust units and parish members installed them. It was only months before new moisture problems appeared but that was not due to these exhaust units because the nice man at the store said they fixed problems, they did not create them. So far new damage costs are going to be about $25,000. I left them to their devices.

Jim

Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you all think of this? Is this for real?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.ebuild.com/articles/1634411.hwx/Q/advid.ENPN090111> Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more than just ventilate the bathroom. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as air quality becomes increasingly important for owners of super-insulated homes, one bathroom fan can free a whole house of off-gassing, formaldehydes, chemicals, and humid air, manufacturers claim. ââ,¬Å"More and more youââ,¬â"¢re hearing people say ââ,¬ËoBuild tight and ventilate right,ââ,¬â"¢Ã¢â,¬Â> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Just a cost issue. The AC units are relatively new and they do do the job (perfectly in most weather and tolerably in the 90's).Shell Bleiweiss

Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss

Environmental and OSHA Law

Chicago and Barrington, Illinois

sbleiweiss@...

http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com

Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 5:27 PMTo: iequality Subject: RE: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more

Shell: Have you considered installing a bigger forced-air AC unit? If you are barely able to keep indoor temperatures cool enough during hot weather without any fresh air, to me this is an indicator that your AC unit is too small. When I moved into my newly constructed home, I found that the AC/heating system had no source of fresh air. A Heating and AC company in my local area was advertising upgrades and showing a pipe that brought in fresh air. I had them look at my system and they said that it was possible to install a variable speed blower that runs 24/7 with a fresh air pipe extending to the outdoors. Since I live in a fairly dry area, there was no need to control the humidity. I had the company design the system so that even with the hot outside air coming in, the AC was powerful enough to do its job. As an added feature, I had them install HEPA filters. Another strategy is to mount a window air conditioner as a supplement to your building's AC? If you do this, you will be adding fresh air to your indoor area as well as making it cooler. Of course, window AC units are often noisy. But for cooling you would need to run the window unit mainly on the very hottest days. The fresh air aspect however is something to look into. There may be window units that will blow in fresh air without the cooling. You have to balance the need for fresh air with the need for quiet operation. Years ago, I had one on which an electrostatic filter was mounted, so I was able to filter out particulate matter. Norm Gauss From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Shell BleiweissSent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 7:27 AMTo: iequality Subject: RE: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more I understand the bad quality of indoor air and the benefits of fresh (good quality) make up air. That is why we open windows whenever we can (thankfully we have good quality outdoor air). But with plain outdoor air added as a supplement through a duct we are going to be uncomfortably warm on hot days, and I'm not sure what the drafts/unbalanced temperatures will feel like in the house during heating season (make up air through forced air ducts while heat coming from baseboards). Seems to me we would either need to heat make up air in cold weather (extra expense at front end and operating) or shut down system in cold weather (extra expense up front and not really getting the job done either.) This seems more doable for houses with forced air and heat.Shell BleiweissLaw Offices of Shell J. BleiweissEnvironmental and OSHA LawChicago and Barrington, Illinoissbleiweiss@...http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 7:14 PMTo: iequality Subject: RE: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more Shell: There is no alternative to outside air for getting rid of stale indoor air. You cannot have quality indoor without some method of piping in outdoor air. If you have no HRV or ERV, admittedly you will lose some energy, but that is better than breathing stale indoor air 24/7. People don't realize that merely by exhaling indoors you are polluting the indoor air. Your breath is loaded with CO2 and humidity. Somehow this must be replaced with fresh outdoor air. Norm Gauss From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Shell BleiweissSent: Friday, September 02, 2011 4:30 PMTo: iequality Subject: RE: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more We have hot water baseboard heat, forced air only for AC, and we have a merv 10 filter on that duct system as well. We run it 24/7. So if we ducted outdoor air into our duct system it wouldn't be heated at all, other than mixing with either room temperature air or conditioned air. Also, our AC units are barely able to cool sufficiently in really hot weather (90's), so I wouldn't want to be piping outdoor air into the cooled air on hot days. So it seems to be this would be a problem much of the year, heating season and the hotter summer days. Shell BleiweissLaw Offices of Shell J. BleiweissEnvironmental and OSHA LawOffices in Chicago and Barrington, Illinois (direct) (general)sbleiweiss@...http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of sagefarm@...Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 10:07 AMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more Dear Shell: While there might be benefits to conditioning the increased outdoor air for ventilation. If you have a forced hot air heating system, the return ductwork can merely be extended to include a connection to the outdoors. I disagree with the oft stated requirement that this outdoor air source be dampered to prevent overventilation, as this condition is more effectively dealt with by effective air sealing at the upper levels of the structure. If one considers a hot air balloon, it is wide open at the bottom but cold air doesn't rush in as no air is leaving at the top to allow this to happen. Also, if it is cold enough that the furnace is warming the recirculated home air, the outdoor air will be heated as well, and if the furnace is not in operation, the cold outdoor air will be tempered by mixing with the warmish air already in the ducts. This approach has worked very well in my home in Concord, MA for many years. This way when my exhaust fans are in operation they don't need to create cold drafts near the windows and operate against less resistance and therefore more more air than if the pathway to the outdoors did not exist. Any questions? Sincerely, W. Bearg, PELife Energy Associateswww.LifeEnergyAssoc.com20 Darton StreetConcord, MA 01742To: iequality Sent: Friday, September 2, 2011 10:40:16 AMSubject: RE: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more I have inquired about retrofitting my house with fresh air make up, but found it not cheap or simple at all. You have to heat cold air and condition hot or humid air, and/or have an automatic shut off for when the air is too hot or too cold, making the whole thing expensive and complicated. Maybe it works great in places with perfect weather year round, but those places probably have their windows open anyway. Shell BleiweissLaw Offices of Shell J. BleiweissEnvironmental and OSHA LawOffices in Chicago and Barrington, Illinois (direct) (general)sbleiweiss@...http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of midsouthbuildersSent: Friday, September 02, 2011 9:06 AMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more ASHRAE 62.2-2010 calls for the use of energy recovery ventilation(ERV) or heat recovery ventilation (HRV) or Fresh Air Supply Ventilation (FAV) fans for residential construction. This can be something as simple as a Panasonic bathroom ERV or an HVAC based system. I much prefer an HVAC based systems (Honeywell) so that air can be filtered and better conditioned before entry into the living space. ERV/HRV/ERVs have been proven to significantly improve residential IEQ. As cost effective and beneficial as they are, it's ridiculous not to include them in residential design.Will>> This is a gross oversimplification:> > > > â€oone bathroom fan can free a whole house of off-gassing, formaldehydes, chemicals, and humid airâ€> > > > If you live in a one-room studio apartment, this could work if you have good air flow from the living space into the bathroom.> > > > If you have a tight multi-room house with no forced-air ducts (e.g. with base-board heating), ventilating the entire house is difficult. These are primarily bathroom fans, not whole-house fans.> > > > If the exhaust fan is installed only in the bathroom, it can pump air out of the bathroom assuming that a window is open to allow fresh air to enter. To enable the fan to ventilate more than just the bathroom, there must be a way for air to enter from the rest of the house into that room. If this is done, then any bathroom window must be closed.> > > > To enable air to enter the bathroom from the rest of the house, either install louvers in the bathroom door or cut an inch from the bottom of the bathroom door. Of course, bathroom sounds are likely to be heard beyond the bathroom.> > > > If you have a really tight house, you must have a source of fresh air to make up for the air you are exhausting. To have a well-ventilated house, fresh air must reach every room in the house, which means installing a hole in the exterior wall of each room having a window. > > > > It does no good for a fan to exhaust air if air is being restricted from entering the bathroom, and it does no good to have exhaust fans in more than one bathroom if no fresh air can enter those rooms you want to ventilate.> > > > In order to have variable fan speeds take care of different amounts of air-exchange for the whole house, you must figure out how much air needs to be moved and whether the fans you install will provide that volume of air-exchange.> > > > Norman Gauss> > > > From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of snk1955@...> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 3:00 PM> To: iequality > Subject: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more> > > > > > What do you all think of this? Is this for real?> > > > <http://www.ebuild.com/articles/1634411.hwx/Q/advid.ENPN090111> Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more than just ventilate the bathroom. > > > > as air quality becomes increasingly important for owners of super-insulated homes, one bathroom fan can free a whole house of off-gassing, formaldehydes, chemicals, and humid air, manufacturers claim. â€oMore and more you’re hearing people say â€~Build tight and ventilate right,’â€>

[Guest guest]

Will,Interesting. I have always wondered what the impact of the ERV outside air flow rate is when it is connected to an FAU with a fan that cycles.Anybody got any data on this ?

Bud Offermann PE CIHPresidentIndoor Environmental Engineering1448 Pine Street, Suite 103San Francisco, CA 94109Office:Cell:Fax: E-mail: Offermann@...Web Site: http://www.IEE-SF.com

Bud

The problem we encounter with ERVs is that many folks add them as a retrofit - after a Manual J has been performed. Granted, few builders even bother with a Manual J today, but adding 40 to 60 cfm of unconditioned air can unbalance a system and add significant load depending upon the time of year.

If systems are designed with ERVs from the ground up, then performance is maximized. But those who simply add a 4" fresh air line to their system usually wind up with a bigger problem. Most of the time the bigger problem is loss of humidity control.

Will

> > >

> > > This is a gross oversimplification:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ââ≠¬Å"one bathroom fan can free a whole house of off-gassing, formaldehydes, chemicals, and humid airââ≠¬Âˇ

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > If you live in a one-room studio apartment, this could work if you have good air flow from the living space into the bathroom.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > If you have a tight multi-room house with no forced-air ducts (e.g. with base-board heating), ventilating the entire house is difficult. These are primarily bathroom fans, not whole-house fans.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > If the exhaust fan is installed only in the bathroom, it can pump air out of the bathroom assuming that a window is open to allow fresh air to enter. To enable the fan to ventilate more than just the bathroom, there must be a way for air to enter from the rest of the house into that room. If this is done, then any bathroom window must be closed.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > To enable air to enter the bathroom from the rest of the house, either install louvers in the bathroom door or cut an inch from the bottom of the bathroom door. Of course, bathroom sounds are likely to be heard beyond the bathroom.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > If you have a really tight house, you must have a source of fresh air to make up for the air you are exhausting. To have a well-ventilated house, fresh air must reach every room in the house, which means installing a hole in the exterior wall of each room having a window.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > It does no good for a fan to exhaust air if air is being restricted from entering the bathroom, and it does no good to have exhaust fans in more than one bathroom if no fresh air can enter those rooms you want to ventilate.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > In order to have variable fan speeds take care of different amounts of air-exchange for the whole house, you must figure out how much air needs to be moved and whether the fans you install will provide that volume of air-exchange.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Norman Gauss

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of snk1955@

> > > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 3:00 PM

> > > To: iequality

> > > Subject: Check out Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > What do you all think of this? Is this for real?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > <http://www.ebuild.com/articles/1634411.hwx/Q/advid.ENPN090111> Exhaust Fans & Ventilation Systems | Breathe Easy: New fans do more than just ventilate the bathroom.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > as air quality becomes increasingly important for owners of super-insulated homes, one bathroom fan can free a whole house of off-gassing, formaldehydes, chemicals, and humid air, manufacturers claim. ââ≠¬Å"More and more youââ≠¬â≥¢re hearing people say ââ≠¬Ë˛Build tight and ventilate right,ââ≠¬â≥¢Ã¢â≠¬Âˇ

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>