Re: (ancient history alert) -- Tom

[Guest guest]

Dear Tom,

thank you for unearthing this piece of prose that right now seems

ancient history, indeed.

> > But every so often I notice that again I'm either judging someone

> > else, or myself, or imagining how somebody else is judging me,

> > perceiving myself through the eyes of others, moving into

somebody

> > else's business, leaving nobody home for me.

> > Sometimes I think I'm going crazy!

> > Perhaps I should not resist the judging, but relish in it until

I'm

> > completely sick of it.... Dare I?

The judging hasn't stopped, but something rather interesting has

happened, though.

I was still feeling pretty confused because my relationship ended,

and since he told me he found another, I haven't heard from him,

adding to my sadness and anger. Anyway, my mind felt messy and very

judgmental towards him and everybody else, it seemed.

I forget how the change came about, there were several events that

appeared to have contributed to how I feel right now.

I think that the most important thing was that I was allowing myself

to make a complete fool of myself, I cried my eyes out without

holding back or commenting upon myself, and also wrote a story full

of aggression, both giving me a great sense of relief.

Ever since then (a week ago or so), that gnawing, intensely sad

feeling when thoughts about him surfaced appears to have gone.

Also, I re-read a few interviews with an allegedly enlightened man.

He said some interesting things, and they struck home with me.

Things he said gave more flesh and bones to the statement that

everything is happening 'for' me instead of 'to' me.

I got the feeling as if I was walking through myself, as if I was the

world through which at the same time this person, Eva, was walking.

As if I was containing myself. It felt rather interesting and happy

to 'walk through myself'. It reminded me of another experience I had

five years ago or so, in which I imagined " I " disappeared through the

grass, and the image developed by itself, " I " spread out underneath

the grass, through the earth, meeting the roots of the grass, the

trees, the bushes, and up again to the blades, the stems, the

branches, the leaves, and while I was riding my bicycle I greeted

myself in everything green around me.

This time, however, the experience felt stronger and lasted longer

(right now I can return to it rather easily), and also this time it

is as if " I " am more displaced into everything around me, sheltering

the me that is inside my body. It is a very pleasant feeling, putting

me in the center of my universe, and being the universe at the same

time. 'Universe' appears too grand a word for it, though. Haven't

reached that universal phase yet :-).

All this made me much more centered and focused, more 'aware' I would

say, and I appear to be less distracted by my judgments about other

people or about what they might think or feel. A heavy weight has

dissipated.

Other images came up that feel very healing and help me to focus on

me:

My mind is the screen on which Life projects its film.

My body is the instrument on which Life plays its songs.

Everything that happens in my mind, everything I perceive or think or

feel, literally everything, resonates in the body.

The film of Life is made especially for me.

The music of Life, as it is played through/in my body, is composed

especially for me.

I feel at times so grateful, enjoying these gifts of Life.

Gracias a la Vida.

Yesterday morning I woke up with the most wonderful dream.

I was floating, felt like flying, in the sea. The water was warm and

gently massaging me while it was pushing and pulling me this way or

that way. I felt very comfortable, I could completely trust the

movements of the water even though they were sometimes quite forceful

and exciting. I didn't need to breath, or I could breath under water,

at least there was no lack of air.

Also, at the sandy bottom of the sea I saw beautiful stones or bricks

in warm colours of sand, yellow, terracotta, adorned with interesting

glyphs and patterns. Then, the water appeared to be pushing me to the

open sea, the colours turned to dark and grey. I didn't want to go

there, it felt cold and fearful. The water appeared to respond to my

wish and led me back to the warm and more cosy areas near the coast.

Then I wanted to pick up one of the stones to examine them more

closely, or perhaps to re-arrange the pattern in which they were laid

out. Then the water became muddy and the care-free comfortable

feeling changed into something more stressful and the waters quickly

pulled me away.

When I woke up, the wonderful feeling of this loving water was still

with me.

Thinking about the dream, I thought that it appeared to tell me that

I should trust the water (or 'Life') to never bring me into

situations that would be too much for me (such as in the dark, grey

and fearful waters of the open sea), just gently wishing it to be

this way or that way, without claims, appeared to be responded to by

Life. But whenever I wanted to try to 'better' anything offered to

me, things would get muddy and stressful.

It appeared to tell me that surrendering was the most satisfying way

to enjoy life.

Also, in contrast to most of my dreams, which are usually heavily

populated with lots of people, I was totally alone this time, and

thoroughly enjoying myself.

> What if there's not really anything you can do about it? What if the

> judging or not judging is simply a function of your conditioning

> (which continually updates itself through your experience) and it

will

> simply do what it's going to, no matter what you do or don't do?

Somehow, even though the Libet experiments show that we have no will

of our own, I resist the idea that I cannot even change how I

experience everything that happens to me.

Maybe we cannot change a thing about the ride, but can we

still 'decide' to enjoy it?

> I think you know this already, Eva, but isn't that how it is with

> everyone? You don't really know how I am, just how my messages seem

to

> you? And aren't they changing all the time, although the changes may

> seem more subtle for some than others? I know I feel differently

when

> I write at different times.

Well, Tom, to me you appear to be one of the more 'stable' persons on

this list.

I can't predict exactly what you will be saying, but I trust it to be

kind. Also, I have seen you are inclined to apply the Work on

anything that you suggest someone else might wish to inquire into,

with often interesting results.

That doesn't mean I 'know' you. But it seems as if I can picture some

of your qualities quite accurately, as I can with some of the others

on this list.

Of course, I realise that I let history narrow the way I experience

you or anyone else. That just seems to be the case right now.

> What

> will Eva say next? I can't imagine what it might be!

I bet you didn't think it would be such a long story about something

completely different.... :-)

Thanks for the opportunity to pour this out to you.

Love,

Eva

[Guest guest]

Hi, Eva!

> ...

> Somehow, even though the Libet experiments show that we have no will

> of our own, I resist the idea that I cannot even change how I

> experience everything that happens to me.

> Maybe we cannot change a thing about the ride, but can we

> still 'decide' to enjoy it?

I don't know. I still have the sense that I make choices. It certainly

*feels* to me as if I decide whether to enjoy the ride or not. Perhaps

that's just because I'm believing a story.

I make choices.

* Is it true?

It sure seems like it.

* Can I absolutely know that it's true?

No.

* How does it feel when I believe that thought, that I make choices?

There's some stress connected to it -- fear that I'll make a bad

choice, that the consequences of one of my choices will injure me or

someone else. A sense of responsibility. A sense of guilt for past

poor choices. Oh, I see that the fear is connected to the future. *In

this moment*, I *don't* make a choice. I just experience what I'm

aware of.

The story of the choice comes after I'm already acting on the decision

that has been made. Walking to the door, " I decided I'll go outside. "

At some point, I have the thought, " I think I'll go outside. " And I

start acting on it. Was the decision when I had the thought, or before

that? Where did the thought come from? What about when I just start

moving, without a conscious thought about where I'm going or what I'm

doing?

* Who or what would I be without the thought, " I make choices " ?

Relaxed. Watching the choices get made. Not stressing over whether I

should or should not do X. Simply watching to see what will happen

when a response is appropriate. Will I do it or not? I don't know,

until I do it, or I don't. Will I get up and go to work tomorrow? Who

knows?! What fun! :)

* Turning it around ( " I make choices " )

- I don't make choices. (could be just as true, or even truer if

Libet is right)

- Choices make me. (Whoa! That's interesting. Could be...)

- My thinking/conditioning makes choices. (it seems to. somebody in

here is doing something, at least that's how it appears.)

> > I think you know this already, Eva, but isn't that how it is with

> > everyone? You don't really know how I am, just how my messages seem

> to

> > you? And aren't they changing all the time, although the changes may

> > seem more subtle for some than others? I know I feel differently

> when

> > I write at different times.

>

> Well, Tom, to me you appear to be one of the more 'stable' persons on

> this list.

> I can't predict exactly what you will be saying, but I trust it to be

> kind. Also, I have seen you are inclined to apply the Work on

> anything that you suggest someone else might wish to inquire into,

> with often interesting results.

> That doesn't mean I 'know' you. But it seems as if I can picture some

> of your qualities quite accurately, as I can with some of the others

> on this list.

> Of course, I realise that I let history narrow the way I experience

> you or anyone else. That just seems to be the case right now.

Yes, I have a picture of you, too, as a wise, intelligent, thoughtful,

kind and beautiful person.

I have a picture, or model, of myself and you and everyone else I know

(or think I do). And sometimes my model is inaccurate. Usually, it's

pretty good, but sometimes, even for me, my own model turns out to

make an incorrect prediction. For example, the day I started yelling

at my boss and a co-worker over their (as I was interpreting things)

wasting my time. I was *very* surprised at myself, and very shaken.

That behavior seemed very incompatible with the identity I was

attached to for myself. It was not a pleasant experience. (I'm don't

think my boss and co-worker enjoyed it much either.

But you're right. Generally, we human beings seem to be pretty good at

modeling one another and making predictions about how each other will

respond under given circumstances.

> > What

> > will Eva say next? I can't imagine what it might be!

>

> I bet you didn't think it would be such a long story about something

> completely different.... :-)

Or such a delightful one.

> Thanks for the opportunity to pour this out to you.

Yokoke. You're-welcome-and-thank-you.

love,

Tom

[Guest guest]

Hi Tom ... :-)

> *In

> this moment*, I *don't* make a choice. I just experience what I'm

> aware of.

Yes, isn't that interesting, Tom?

Did you know that described how he got up in the

morning? (His introspection is still seen as remarkably keen and

accurate and much of it has been confirmed in later research.)

He noticed his thoughts wandered off to what he'd be doing that day

and suddenly he found himself next to his bed, never having made a

conscious decision. I notice it's the same with me.

It's something like falling asleep: you can only *allow* it to

happen, or prevent it from happening, but not WILL yourself to sleep.

Same as waking up, I guess!

> The story of the choice comes after I'm already acting on the

decision

> that has been made. Walking to the door, " I decided I'll go

outside. "

Did you know that people being hypnotised and being given certain

suggestions, e.g., " when I scratch my nose you will open the window " ,

will do as they are being suggested, and when asked why they open the

window, they make up a reasonable explanation on the spot, such as:

It was getting hot in here, or I needed some fresh air, or whatever.

Clear indication that at least in some cases, people make stories

about how they 'decide' while in fact they're simply following

instructions....

> * Who or what would I be without the thought, " I make choices " ?

>

> Relaxed. Watching the choices get made. Not stressing over whether I

> should or should not do X. Simply watching to see what will happen

> when a response is appropriate. Will I do it or not? I don't know,

> until I do it, or I don't. Will I get up and go to work tomorrow?

Who

> knows?! What fun! :)

And? Did you get up and go to work today? (I still haven't

decided.. :-)) )

> - Choices make me. (Whoa! That's interesting. Could be...)

Yes, sounds great!

> Yes, I have a picture of you, too, as a wise, intelligent,

thoughtful,

> kind and beautiful person.

You have an interesting picture of me, Tom!

I wish that 'playful' were part of it too.... :-(

> For example, the day I started yelling

> at my boss and a co-worker over their (as I was interpreting things)

> wasting my time. I was *very* surprised at myself, and very shaken.

> That behavior seemed very incompatible with the identity I was

> attached to for myself. It was not a pleasant experience. (I'm don't

> think my boss and co-worker enjoyed it much either.

Wow, sounds like something interesting happened.

> But you're right. Generally, we human beings seem to be pretty good

at

> modeling one another and making predictions about how each other

will

> respond under given circumstances.

Actually, I wasn't meaning to say that I'm good at modeling and

making predictions...

I only meant to say I can picture people, not meaning to say the

pictures are accurate in any way.

Thanks for this, Tom.

I think you are all the things you think of me, and playful in

addition! <grin>

Eva

[Guest guest]

Dear Eva,

Thanks for your insights into the difference between judging and

attaching to the judgement and for this dialog with

Tom...thanks Tom too. I have noticed that children start off this way -

just allowing - and then they learn about the judge and move into the

space of thinking that we decide instead of allowing ourselves to be

decided.

When I was at the school I so got that I am decided on the morning walks

and at other times of the day while there.

Nothing, 'seeing' the I, and then all the thoughts that follow - I love

it when I notice it happening - that I am noticing the I, the I am -

that that is the way it - reality - is...so peaceful, so joyous, so

YES!!!

Love, light and laughter,

Caroline

" Humanity has advanced, when it has advanced, not because it has been

sober, responsible, and cautious, but because it has been playful,

rebellious, and immature. "

Tom Robbins

Re: (ancient history alert) -- Tom

Hi Tom ... :-)

> *In

> this moment*, I *don't* make a choice. I just experience what I'm

> aware of.

Yes, isn't that interesting, Tom?

Did you know that described how he got up in the

morning? (His introspection is still seen as remarkably keen and

accurate and much of it has been confirmed in later research.)

He noticed his thoughts wandered off to what he'd be doing that day

and suddenly he found himself next to his bed, never having made a

conscious decision. I notice it's the same with me.

It's something like falling asleep: you can only *allow* it to

happen, or prevent it from happening, but not WILL yourself to sleep.

Same as waking up, I guess!

> The story of the choice comes after I'm already acting on the

decision

> that has been made. Walking to the door, " I decided I'll go

outside. "

Did you know that people being hypnotised and being given certain

suggestions, e.g., " when I scratch my nose you will open the window " ,

will do as they are being suggested, and when asked why they open the

window, they make up a reasonable explanation on the spot, such as:

It was getting hot in here, or I needed some fresh air, or whatever.

Clear indication that at least in some cases, people make stories

about how they 'decide' while in fact they're simply following

instructions....

> * Who or what would I be without the thought, " I make choices " ?

>

> Relaxed. Watching the choices get made. Not stressing over whether I

> should or should not do X. Simply watching to see what will happen

> when a response is appropriate. Will I do it or not? I don't know,

> until I do it, or I don't. Will I get up and go to work tomorrow?

Who

> knows?! What fun! :)

And? Did you get up and go to work today? (I still haven't

decided.. :-)) )

> - Choices make me. (Whoa! That's interesting. Could be...)

Yes, sounds great!

> Yes, I have a picture of you, too, as a wise, intelligent,

thoughtful,

> kind and beautiful person.

You have an interesting picture of me, Tom!

I wish that 'playful' were part of it too.... :-(

> For example, the day I started yelling

> at my boss and a co-worker over their (as I was interpreting things)

> wasting my time. I was *very* surprised at myself, and very shaken.

> That behavior seemed very incompatible with the identity I was

> attached to for myself. It was not a pleasant experience. (I'm don't

> think my boss and co-worker enjoyed it much either.

Wow, sounds like something interesting happened.

> But you're right. Generally, we human beings seem to be pretty good

at

> modeling one another and making predictions about how each other

will

> respond under given circumstances.

Actually, I wasn't meaning to say that I'm good at modeling and

making predictions...

I only meant to say I can picture people, not meaning to say the

pictures are accurate in any way.

Thanks for this, Tom.

I think you are all the things you think of me, and playful in

addition! <grin>

Eva

[Guest guest]

> Hi Tom ... :-)

>

> > *In

> > this moment*, I *don't* make a choice. I just experience what I'm

> > aware of.

>

> Yes, isn't that interesting, Tom?

> Did you know that described how he got up in the

> morning? (His introspection is still seen as remarkably keen and

> accurate and much of it has been confirmed in later research.)

> He noticed his thoughts wandered off to what he'd be doing that day

> and suddenly he found himself next to his bed, never having made a

> conscious decision. I notice it's the same with me.

I didn't know that. Is it in Varieties of Religious Experience or

somewhere else? I'd like to read his account.

> It's something like falling asleep: you can only *allow* it to

> happen, or prevent it from happening, but not WILL yourself to sleep.

> Same as waking up, I guess!

I've noticed I can ask myself for a wakeup call at a particular time

and that's often successful. If I decide when I'm going to bed that I

want to wake up at, say, 5:00 a.m., often I will wake up very close to

the time I thought of. How does that work? If I try to do it every

morning, it works less and less well over time. If I just do it once

in a while, it works pretty well.

> > The story of the choice comes after I'm already acting on the

> decision

> > that has been made. Walking to the door, " I decided I'll go

> outside. "

>

> Did you know that people being hypnotised and being given certain

> suggestions, e.g., " when I scratch my nose you will open the window " ,

> will do as they are being suggested, and when asked why they open the

> window, they make up a reasonable explanation on the spot, such as:

> It was getting hot in here, or I needed some fresh air, or whatever.

> Clear indication that at least in some cases, people make stories

> about how they 'decide' while in fact they're simply following

> instructions....

What this reminds me of is split-brain research I've heard about in

which the right brain is shown embarrassing pictures, which provoked

giggles. The left brain (which had not seen the picture) was asked why

the giggling and it made up a story to explain it. ( " Someone told a

joke " , or " Your tie is funny. " ) I may not have all the details right,

but the point was that part of the left brain's job is maintain a

narrative about what's going on so we have explanations for things,

with little concern for whether the narrative is true.

> > * Who or what would I be without the thought, " I make choices " ?

> >

> > Relaxed. Watching the choices get made. Not stressing over whether I

> > should or should not do X. Simply watching to see what will happen

> > when a response is appropriate. Will I do it or not? I don't know,

> > until I do it, or I don't. Will I get up and go to work tomorrow?

> Who

> > knows?! What fun! :)

>

> And? Did you get up and go to work today? (I still haven't

> decided.. :-)) )

I did. I went to sleep last night expecting to sleep until 6:00, but I

woke up at 5:00. And then the story came that I should go ahead and

get up so I can wake up even earlier tomorrow morning, and earlier

still the next morning so that I'll be ready to wake up at midnight

Friday morning to drive to Connecticut -- an example of making up a

story after the fact. I'm telling myself that my body is wise and

easing into the earlier wakeup times, but I don't know that. It could

just be an accident.

> > - Choices make me. (Whoa! That's interesting. Could be...)

>

> Yes, sounds great!

>

> > Yes, I have a picture of you, too, as a wise, intelligent,

> thoughtful,

> > kind and beautiful person.

>

> You have an interesting picture of me, Tom!

> I wish that 'playful' were part of it too.... :-(

So, playful is part of your picture of you! Thank you for letting me

know. It's getting incorporated into my picture. Playfulness is

something I enjoy a lot, in myself and others, but I don't focus on it

a lot. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I hadn't even

noticed I was playing in my note to Jan until you pointed it out.

Thank you for that.

> > For example, the day I started yelling

> > at my boss and a co-worker over their (as I was interpreting things)

> > wasting my time. I was *very* surprised at myself, and very shaken.

> > That behavior seemed very incompatible with the identity I was

> > attached to for myself. It was not a pleasant experience. (I'm don't

> > think my boss and co-worker enjoyed it much either.

>

> Wow, sounds like something interesting happened.

In retrospect, it is interesting. At the time, it just felt stressful

and shameful. I give myself explanations for it like, I was tired, I

was provoked, they should've been tending to business instead of

sniping at each other (and whose business am I in now? .

People should tend to business.

True? Yes! They should. Reality is that often they don't.

Can I absolutely know that people should tend to business? They

shouldn't waste my time! Maybe I can't say absolutely they should tend

to business, but they shouldn't waste my time.

* Aha, so that's the real one, eh? They shouldn't waste my time. Is

that true?

Yes. They shouldn't waste my time.

* *Can* they waste your time?

Um... It has seemed like it. But right now, no. Whatever they do, I

can pay attention to what's going on for me and learn from it. That's

never a waste, is it?

* Hasn't been so far. We can't know about the future, can we?

No, but you're right. That's how it's been.

* Good. Can you absolutely know they should not waste your time?

No. They should do what they need to for them. They can't waste my

time.

* How does it feel, how do you react when you believe " They should not

waste my time " ?

I believe my time can be wasted. I feel out of control. I feel at

their mercy. I get impatient and frustrated and tense. I dread

interruptions.

* How do you treat them, believing they shouldn't waste your time?

Like obstacles. I don't want to see them or hear from them. I want

them to go away. (And then, times when they do, when I'm left alone

for a while, I feel lonely. Isn't that funny. Never satisfied.

* How do you treat yourself when you're holding that belief?

I pressure myself to make good use of the time I have. Who knows when

someone's going to come along and waste some of it? I'm never

satisfied with my use of the available time. I always should've gotten

more done, gone further, been more productive. I never really get to

rest. There's always stuff I *have* to do. Oh, that's stressing. Yuck.

* What does this belief bring you? Peace or stress? Anything positive?

Any payoff?

Stress. It lets me believe that I can improve things by working

harder and controlling my time better. But that's not true. Improving

efficiency will just lead to more franticness, trying to go faster,

squeeze in more, resenting interruptions even more. It just ties the

knot tighter.

* Can you see a reason to stop believing they should not waste your

time?

Yes. I can also see reasons to stop believing they *can* waste my

time, and I can see a reason to stop believing it's *my* time. What a

concept, that time could belong to someone! I don't have time, I just

have this moment.

* Can you see any peaceful reason to keep the thought, " they should

not waste my time " ?

No.

* Who would you be without that thought?

Fully present in this moment, befriending what's going on right now.

Befriending me in the midst of what's going on. Free to play. Relaxed

and comfortable. Smiling. Happy to be part of whatever is happening.

* Turn-arounds

- They should waste my time. (if they do. I can't even take the idea

of " wasting time " seriously anymore.)

- They can't waste my time. (not possible. I can always make good use

of this moment, no matter what they're doing.)

- I can't waste my time. (however I use it is exactly right for me at

the time. It all leads me home. Wow! That's big. That's the truest

one so far.)

- It's not my time. (all I have is this moment, and time just is, it

doesn't belong to me or you or anyone)

Thank you for inviting that, Eva. Most helpful to me.

> > But you're right. Generally, we human beings seem to be pretty good

> at

> > modeling one another and making predictions about how each other

> will

> > respond under given circumstances.

>

> Actually, I wasn't meaning to say that I'm good at modeling and

> making predictions...

> I only meant to say I can picture people, not meaning to say the

> pictures are accurate in any way.

Okay. I read something in you hadn't intended. It helps me to remember

my models are not accurate, even though they are also useful. They

seem to be more useful for me when I can remember their limitations.

Sometimes, when I become aware of the limitations, I want to throw the

model out despite its usefulness.

> Thanks for this, Tom.

> I think you are all the things you think of me, and playful in

> addition! <grin>

Thank you, Eva. I appreciate you pointing out playfulness to me. I'm

noticing it in you, now that my attention has been drawn to it.

playfully,

Tom

[Guest guest]

Hi Tom,

> > Did you know that described how he got up in the

> > morning? (His introspection is still seen as remarkably keen and

> > accurate and much of it has been confirmed in later research.)

> > He noticed his thoughts wandered off to what he'd be doing that

day

> > and suddenly he found himself next to his bed, never having made

a

> > conscious decision. I notice it's the same with me.

>

> I didn't know that. Is it in Varieties of Religious Experience or

> somewhere else? I'd like to read his account.

Principles of Psychology, Volume Two page 524.

> > It's something like falling asleep: you can only *allow* it to

> > happen, or prevent it from happening, but not WILL yourself to

sleep.

> > Same as waking up, I guess!

>

> I've noticed I can ask myself for a wakeup call at a particular time

> and that's often successful. If I decide when I'm going to bed that

I

> want to wake up at, say, 5:00 a.m., often I will wake up very close

to

> the time I thought of. How does that work? If I try to do it every

> morning, it works less and less well over time. If I just do it once

> in a while, it works pretty well.

Yes, I can do that too.

I suppose it means that outside our daily consciousness there is some

other awareness -- and it has a watch.

> What this reminds me of is split-brain research I've heard about in

> which the right brain is shown embarrassing pictures, which provoked

> giggles. The left brain (which had not seen the picture) was asked

why

> the giggling and it made up a story to explain it. ( " Someone told a

> joke " , or " Your tie is funny. " ) I may not have all the details

right,

> but the point was that part of the left brain's job is maintain a

> narrative about what's going on so we have explanations for things,

> with little concern for whether the narrative is true.

Sounds like Gazzaniga's research. I think that the Foreword in

's book Loving what is refers to it too, the left-brain's job to

make sense (i.e. stories) of what's happening to us.

> I'm telling myself that my body is wise and

> easing into the earlier wakeup times, but I don't know that. It

could

> just be an accident.

Well, I suppose you will find out.

> So, playful is part of your picture of you!

Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't.

> I pressure myself to make good use of the time I have. Who knows

when

> someone's going to come along and waste some of it? I'm never

> satisfied with my use of the available time. I always should've

gotten

> more done, gone further, been more productive. I never really get to

> rest. There's always stuff I *have* to do. Oh, that's stressing.

Yuck.

You're a boss' dream!

> What a

> concept, that time could belong to someone! I don't have time, I

just

> have this moment.

The discoveries we make. Interesting, Tom.

Eva

[Guest guest]

There are conscious choices we make and unconscious choices--even

subconscious choices. These levels of awareness related to our choices has

been well documented. There's really no mystery about it.

Eddie

>

>Reply-To: Loving-what-is

>To: Loving-what-is

>Subject: Re: (ancient history alert) -- Tom

>Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 14:25:28 -0000

>

>Hi Tom,

>

> > > Did you know that described how he got up in the

> > > morning? (His introspection is still seen as remarkably keen and

> > > accurate and much of it has been confirmed in later research.)

> > > He noticed his thoughts wandered off to what he'd be doing that

>day

> > > and suddenly he found himself next to his bed, never having made

>a

> > > conscious decision. I notice it's the same with me.

> >

> > I didn't know that. Is it in Varieties of Religious Experience or

> > somewhere else? I'd like to read his account.

>

>Principles of Psychology, Volume Two page 524.

>

> > > It's something like falling asleep: you can only *allow* it to

> > > happen, or prevent it from happening, but not WILL yourself to

>sleep.

> > > Same as waking up, I guess!

> >

> > I've noticed I can ask myself for a wakeup call at a particular time

> > and that's often successful. If I decide when I'm going to bed that

>I

> > want to wake up at, say, 5:00 a.m., often I will wake up very close

>to

> > the time I thought of. How does that work? If I try to do it every

> > morning, it works less and less well over time. If I just do it once

> > in a while, it works pretty well.

>

>Yes, I can do that too.

>I suppose it means that outside our daily consciousness there is some

>other awareness -- and it has a watch.

>

> > What this reminds me of is split-brain research I've heard about in

> > which the right brain is shown embarrassing pictures, which provoked

> > giggles. The left brain (which had not seen the picture) was asked

>why

> > the giggling and it made up a story to explain it. ( " Someone told a

> > joke " , or " Your tie is funny. " ) I may not have all the details

>right,

> > but the point was that part of the left brain's job is maintain a

> > narrative about what's going on so we have explanations for things,

> > with little concern for whether the narrative is true.

>

>Sounds like Gazzaniga's research. I think that the Foreword in

>'s book Loving what is refers to it too, the left-brain's job to

>make sense (i.e. stories) of what's happening to us.

>

> > I'm telling myself that my body is wise and

> > easing into the earlier wakeup times, but I don't know that. It

>could

> > just be an accident.

>

>Well, I suppose you will find out.

>

> > So, playful is part of your picture of you!

>

>Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't.

>

> > I pressure myself to make good use of the time I have. Who knows

>when

> > someone's going to come along and waste some of it? I'm never

> > satisfied with my use of the available time. I always should've

>gotten

> > more done, gone further, been more productive. I never really get to

> > rest. There's always stuff I *have* to do. Oh, that's stressing.

>Yuck.

>

>You're a boss' dream!

>

> > What a

> > concept, that time could belong to someone! I don't have time, I

>just

> > have this moment.

>

>The discoveries we make. Interesting, Tom.

>

>Eva

>

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Dear Eddie,

> There are conscious choices we make and unconscious choices--even

> subconscious choices. These levels of awareness related to our

choices has

> been well documented. There's really no mystery about it.

> Eddie

I believe that any explanation is only a temporary truth.

But I enjoy learning about those temporary truths, since they seem to

lead to ever grander mysteries.

So tell me, if you wish, about what is documented about these levels

of awareness.

Eva

[Guest guest]

Good morning, Eva...

> > ...

> > I didn't know that. Is it in Varieties of Religious Experience or

> > somewhere else? I'd like to read his account.

>

> Principles of Psychology, Volume Two page 524.

Thank you for this, Eva. I found an online copy of this text, but it

doesn't have page numbers! Could you tell me which chapter it is?

> ...

> Yes, I can do that too.

> I suppose it means that outside our daily consciousness there is some

> other awareness -- and it has a watch.

Yes! heeheehee

> ...

> Sounds like Gazzaniga's research. I think that the Foreword in

> 's book Loving what is refers to it too, the left-brain's job to

> make sense (i.e. stories) of what's happening to us.

That name rings a bell.

> > I'm telling myself that my body is wise and

> > easing into the earlier wakeup times, but I don't know that. It

> could

> > just be an accident.

>

> Well, I suppose you will find out.

It has continued working. I got up at 3:45 am yesterday, and 2:30 this

morning. " Tomorrow " (actually later today), I'll get up around 23:30

and set out on the journey to Connecticut.

> > So, playful is part of your picture of you!

>

> Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't.

How does it feel for you when it is, and when it isn't?

> > I pressure myself to make good use of the time I have. Who knows

> when

> > someone's going to come along and waste some of it? I'm never

> > satisfied with my use of the available time. I always should've

> gotten

> > more done, gone further, been more productive. I never really get to

> > rest. There's always stuff I *have* to do. Oh, that's stressing.

> Yuck.

>

> You're a boss' dream!

Was, anyway. Lately, I've been cutting myself more slack and going

about what I do in a more relaxed way. It seems like I'm getting about

as much done, but with much less effort and stress. Very pleasant.

Thanks for your reply, Eva. I enjoy your playfulness very much.

Tom

[Guest guest]

Hi Tom,

you're up early!

Still on schedule?

> > Principles of Psychology, Volume Two page 524.

>

> Thank you for this, Eva. I found an online copy of this text, but it

> doesn't have page numbers! Could you tell me which chapter it is?

It's in Chapter XXVI on WILL, I'd say it's about one third of the

Chapter, in a section called 'IDEO-MOTOR action' and the paragraph

starts with:

" We know what it is to get out of bed on a freezing morning in a room

without a fire, and how the very vital principle within us protests

against the ordeal.... "

He's a lovely writer too, as you probably know.

> It has continued working. I got up at 3:45 am yesterday, and 2:30

this

> morning. " Tomorrow " (actually later today), I'll get up around 23:30

> and set out on the journey to Connecticut.

Ah, I see, indeed, you are (or this other awareness is) still on

schedule...

> > You're a boss' dream!

>

> Was, anyway. Lately, I've been cutting myself more slack and

going

> about what I do in a more relaxed way. It seems like I'm getting

about

> as much done, but with much less effort and stress. Very pleasant.

Sounds great!

I am much too slack at work, but the more I reason that I don't have

a choice anyway, the less I worry about it. It might get me to work a

little harder, just by itself.

> Thanks for your reply, Eva. I enjoy your playfulness very much.

;-)

Eva

[Guest guest]

Hello again, Eva...

> ...

> It's in Chapter XXVI on WILL, I'd say it's about one third of the

> Chapter, in a section called 'IDEO-MOTOR action' and the paragraph

> starts with:

>

> " We know what it is to get out of bed on a freezing morning in a room

> without a fire, and how the very vital principle within us protests

> against the ordeal.... "

>

> He's a lovely writer too, as you probably know.

Yes. It's been some years since I read his Varieties of Religious

Experience, but I enjoyed it very much. I just found the passage you

mentioned. Here's the paragraph:

" We know what it is to get out of bed on a freezing morning in a room

without a fire, and how the very vital principle within us protests

against the ordeal. Probably most persons have lain on certain

mornings for an hour at a time unable to brace themselves to the

resolve. We think how late we shall be, how the duties of the day will

suffer; we say, " I must get up, this is ignominious, " etc.; but still

the warm couch feels too delicious, the cold outside too cruel, and

resolution faints away and postpones itself again and again just as it

seemed on the verge of bursting the resistance and passing over into

the decisive act. Now how do we ever get up under such circumstances?

If I may generalize from my own experience, we more often than not get

up without any struggle or decision at all. We suddenly find that we

have got up. A fortunate lapse of consciousness occurs; we forget both

the warmth and the cold; we fall into some revery connected with the

day's life, in the course of which the idea flashes across us, " Hollo!

I must lie here no longer " - an idea which at that lucky instant

awakens no contradictory or paralyzing suggestions, and consequently

produces immediately its appropriate motor effects It was our acute

consciousness of both the warmth and the cold during the period of

struggle, [p. 525] which paralyzed our activity then and kept our idea

of rising in the condition of wish and not of will. The moment these

inhibitory ideas ceased, the original idea exerted its effects. "

This reminds me very much of talking about how we're always

doing what we want to. ( " She should stand up " without standing,

repeated several times, finally standing, " Now! She should stand. " )

Conflicting impulses paralyze. What I get from both and is

that only when all (or at least most) of my thinking is going the same

direction can any movement happen.

> > It has continued working. I got up at 3:45 am yesterday, and 2:30

> this

> > morning. " Tomorrow " (actually later today), I'll get up around 23:30

> > and set out on the journey to Connecticut.

>

> Ah, I see, indeed, you are (or this other awareness is) still on

> schedule...

so far...

Tom