Re: spiritual teachers/Carol

[Guest guest]

You know, Andy, I hear you, and what I experience is what is popularly

known among disillusioned satsang freaks as the " advaita shuffle. "

" Enlightenment is the ending of the one who etc " -- from where I sit

there can be no ending of that " one " because here it is appearing as

you and me, trying to make something of nothing!

I have an identity (you may call it " false, " I do not) and live in a

world (which I like living in, no need to undo that). And in my world

there is no equality consciousness about, say, ritual murder. It's

" what is, " yes, and I don't condone it. I have no interest in

creating a world for myself where that kind of thing is okay.

" There shouldn't be ritual murder? " Of course that's not true -- there

is murder. In The Work we discover that suffering is optional, and I

am totally down with that. " All thought arises out of conditioning. "

Perhaps. And as we're not doing it, it all arises out of God or

whatever...your point is???

You also seem to imply that as long as one sees things in terms of

differences, there is suffering. That is not my experience and undoing

everything is not my path. And I respect yours. Thank you for your

thoughts.

Happy new year!

Love, Carol

>

> Well, I don't see facelifts and divorces as higher or lower, just

> your basic human stuff that comes with being in a body. I do see

> ritual murders and child sexual abuse as lower. Silly deluded me,

> guess I need to do some more worksheets, not enlightened yet.

>

>

> *****Enlightenment is the ending of the one who would wish to be

> enlightened. It's not some uber state of bliss, eternal peace, and

> perpetual serenity. That's just some bill of goods that has gotten

> passed down from generation to generation (like the Garden of Eden)

> because it sells so well. It doesn't, however, accord with Reality.

>

> The delusion, if it exists, is the belief that you need to live your

> life according to someone else's beliefs, opinions, marketing

> strategies. How you experience life is how the universe has elected

> to express itself though you at that moment. There is NO CHOICE to

> being a conditioned being. It happens. And there is no sin or evil

> in any conditioning. We are all doing the best we can at every

> moment. So, your conditioning currently " ranks " ritual murders and

> child sexual abuse as lower " basic human stuff " than facelifts and

> divorces. If such conditioning causes sufficient upset, you can

> always backstep through thought, deconstructing it, seeking to

> unknot the belief system that led to such a ranking. Whether or not

> there will be success remains to be seen.

[Guest guest]

You know, Andy, I hear you, and what I experience is what is

popularly known among disillusioned satsang freaks as the " advaita

shuffle. " " Enlightenment is the ending of the one who etc " -- from

where I sit there can be no ending of that " one " because here it is

appearing as you and me, trying to make something of nothing!

*****I agree. That is like healing illusory pain. How does one

heal a wound that is not real? How does one dispel that which is

not real (the self)? And what is it that does the dispelling, if -

and when - it even occurs? It's a fascinating paradox that can't be

answered but can be Seen (though not with thought, since paradoxes

resist thought's incursion). It's like holding up a pure crystal

bowl filled to the brim with distilled water. When absolutely still

one can't See the water, although it's right there, filling the

entire universe. ;-))

I have an identity (you may call it " false, " I do not) and live in a

world (which I like living in, no need to undo that). And in my world

there is no equality consciousness about, say, ritual murder. It's

" what is, " yes, and I don't condone it. I have no interest in

creating a world for myself where that kind of thing is okay.

*****I wasn't suggesting you do.

" There shouldn't be ritual murder? " Of course that's not true --

there is murder. In The Work we discover that suffering is optional,

and I am totally down with that. " All thought arises out of

conditioning. " Perhaps. And as we're not doing it, it all arises

out of God or whatever...your point is???

*****For *me* the point in realizing the above is a large helping of

tolerance for the rest of humanity. Tolerance, as in the case of

child molesters, does not equate with approval, nor with taking

vigorous action to prevent future occurences. It does, however,

dissolve the desire to punish the molester. Perhaps removal from

society will be necessary, but such action will be taken with as

much kindness as possible (the molester may view such actions

as " punishment, " but I can't help that...the removal is not done

with the intent of punishment). So when I see stupid, foolish,

ignorant, or cruel behavior, this...understanding...puts an

alternative spin on it, one that allows me to appreciate that we are

all " fellow travelers to the grave. "

You also seem to imply that as long as one sees things in terms of

differences, there is suffering.

*****That was not my intent (perhaps it was inferred?). I'm not

sure where you derived that from; I can't imagine living in the

phenomenal world and NOT seeing things in terms of differences. I

find one of the joys of living to be the experience of differences

(as in the Star Trek IDIC: Infinite Diversity In Infinite

Combination).

That is not my experience and undoing everything is not my path. And

I respect yours. Thank you for your thoughts.

*****Ditto.

[Guest guest]

Dear Andy, you wrote:

> *****For *me* the point in realizing the above is a large helping of

> tolerance for the rest of humanity. Tolerance, as in the case of

> child molesters, does not equate with approval, nor with taking

> vigorous action to prevent future occurences. It does, however,

> dissolve the desire to punish the molester. Perhaps removal from

> society will be necessary, but such action will be taken with as

> much kindness as possible (the molester may view such actions

> as " punishment, " but I can't help that...the removal is not done

> with the intent of punishment). So when I see stupid, foolish,

> ignorant, or cruel behavior, this...understanding...puts an

> alternative spin on it, one that allows me to appreciate that we are

> all " fellow travelers to the grave. "

Yes, removal, and rehabilitation, however " kind, " looks like

punishment to the " beholder. " What happens in cases where

rehabilitation is not even possible?

If we are fellow travelers, then I would want and expect the same

treatment that I want for those who commit " stupid, foolish, ignorant

or cruel behavior " in which another is harmed. In other words, if I

touch a child inappropriately, please put me behind bars for the sake

of other children and for my own sake, because clearly I'm not able

right now to control myself. How is this intolerant? It's sensible;

kind, even.

Of course, from the nondual perspective there would be nothing to

rehabilitate since " nothing terrible has ever happened. " So where does

one draw the line, legally and societally? I am a believer in

deterrents to undesirable behavior. It seems to me that we can

tolerate the fact that there is child molestation in the world, and we

can tolerate the poor confused perpetrator while having zero tolerance

for the act.

> You also seem to imply that as long as one sees things in terms of

> differences, there is suffering.

>

>

> *****That was not my intent (perhaps it was inferred?). I'm not

> sure where you derived that from;

From the higher-lower thing.

Anyway, this is the sort of discussion that got me taking a vacation

from LWI. I'm giving myself a headache!!!!!

I can't imagine living in the

> phenomenal world and NOT seeing things in terms of differences. I

> find one of the joys of living to be the experience of differences

I'm relieved to hear that, though I'm not sure why I even care. I

noticed that all too human thing happening when I read your earlier

words, " I agree with you. " The Carol-thing went, " Yay! " inwardly.

" Loving What's LAA " seems to be the way of this one in this world. I

think if I can love THAT also that may be half the (imaginary) battle.

Off to the races...

Love, Carol

[Guest guest]

> *****For *me* the point in realizing the above is a large helping of

> tolerance for the rest of humanity. Tolerance, as in the case of

> child molesters, does not equate with approval, nor with taking

> vigorous action to prevent future occurences. It does, however,

> dissolve the desire to punish the molester. Perhaps removal from

> society will be necessary, but such action will be taken with as

> much kindness as possible (the molester may view such actions

> as " punishment, " but I can't help that...the removal is not done

> with the intent of punishment). So when I see stupid, foolish,

> ignorant, or cruel behavior, this...understanding...puts an

> alternative spin on it, one that allows me to appreciate that we are

> all " fellow travelers to the grave. "

Yes, removal, and rehabilitation, however " kind, " looks like

punishment to the " beholder. " What happens in cases where

rehabilitation is not even possible?

*****Let the individual live out her/his life with some modicum of

respect. Perhaps incarceration is the only option (or removal to an

island). But place him/her in a cage? Treat human beings like

animals and be surprised that they act with little or no humanity?

And do we ever know that rehabilitation is not even possible? Maybe

it isn't possible today or tomorrow...but in five, ten, fifiteen

years (consider the case of Stroud, the " Birdman of

Alcatraz " )? Change is *always* happening; in fact, change is the

only constant in the universe :-))) Which is why I am against the

death penalty - in EVERY case. When a life is extinguished there is

no longer the possibility of change.

If we are fellow travelers, then I would want and expect the same

treatment that I want for those who commit " stupid, foolish, ignorant

or cruel behavior " in which another is harmed. In other words, if I

touch a child inappropriately, please put me behind bars for the sake

of other children and for my own sake, because clearly I'm not able

right now to control myself.

*****Or make the effort to rehabilitate me. Yes. The fact that I

would wish that to be done does not mean it will be delivered. Most

of the human world has a deep retributive streak in it.

How is this intolerant? It's sensible; kind, even.

*****Yes. The word " humane " comes to mind.

Of course, from the nondual perspective there would be nothing to

rehabilitate since " nothing terrible has ever happened. "

*****THAT kind of thinking I associate with the phrase " the Advaita

Shuffle. " And, in a sense, I believe those words are true. (I think

's exact words are " nothing terrible has ever happened except in

thought. " A subtle but important distinction.) That kind of

thinking is valid -- from the perspective of the Absolute. But we

also inhabit the relative world where differentiation happens.

So where does one draw the line, legally and societally?

*****Where one draws the line, that's where. I'm not being cute

here. I'm suggesting that each bodymind mechanism WILL draw the line

at some point (or perhaps not at all). We each have to find out for

ourselves where that line gets drawn.

I am a believer in deterrents to undesirable behavior.

*****Deterrents appear good on the surface, but I am distrustful of

them since throughout history they have never fully worked. Do they

EVER work? Who is ultimately pulling the strings? And if the

deterrents are fear of pain and punishment - as so many are - is this

not compounding violence with violence? This is not a call to accept

hurtful behavior. It is part of a larger inquiry about the nature of

life.

It seems to me that we can tolerate the fact that there is child

molestation in the world, and we can tolerate the poor confused

perpetrator while having zero tolerance for the act.

*****What does " having zero tolerance for the act " mean? And how is

it displayed?

> I can't imagine living in the phenomenal world and NOT seeing

> things in terms of differences. I find one of the joys of living to

> be the experience of differences

I'm relieved to hear that, though I'm not sure why I even care. I

noticed that all too human thing happening when I read your earlier

words, " I agree with you. " The Carol-thing went, " Yay! " inwardly.

" Loving What's LAA " seems to be the way of this one in this world. I

think if I can love THAT also that may be half the (imaginary) battle.

*****Who doesn't get a glow from appreciation, approval, love, and

agreement? Is getting a glow something to be ashamed of? Why in the

world?? Feelings, both good and bad, arise and recede with the tide

of the day. There is neither anything special nor " wrong, " about

such feelings. The only thing to be aware of, if possible, is the

investment in having them, not in their appearance on stage for a few

moments. The deeper, wiser part of ourself always responds to

genuine, heartfelt emotion. Nothing is ever lost that is born of the

heart.

Off to the races...

*****Hope you win BIG!! :-)))