Guest guest Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 Dr. Thrasher: I believe you missed the essence of Will’s post, i.e., where are all the bodies? And I concur with Will. Like Will, I too am a licensed contractor. Like Will, I am in many more non-water damaged (WD) buildings than WD buildings, and I am in many more non-mold compromised buildings than mold-compromised buildings. This said, I see almost as many “sick” people in non (water and/or mold...pick your favorite) compromised buildings as obviously compromised buildings, and for many similar symptoms. Given what many folks on ieQuality post, one could be lead to believe that mold and/or water-compromised structures should have a trail of morbidity and mortality...I don’t see it, either. Personally, my introduction into moldy WD buildings began in the late 70’s. I essentially paid my way through my undergraduate program ripping out and re-building (R & R) moldy bathrooms in off-campus student housing. Lots of them. My containment methods were appalling when compared to today’s standards. Did I wear PPE...Hell no...well maybe, if you consider the leather gloves I wore PPE. Some of the places I re-built were appalling – you could carve your initials in the black biomass present and not get all the way down to the substrate...what ever it was. Interestingly, I don’t recall any “sick” tenants in the places I worked, albeit, these were young adults – 20 somethings – so my population is age biased. I did my fair share of R & R in those days, re-built well over 200 bathrooms. In doing this I got really interested in the molds present, and ended-up spending a lot of work in the university’s plant pathology lab to ID the critters. Can’t recall anything about mycotoxins ever being discussed by the professors at that time...so I didn’t worry. However, why is it that today we hear about so many being “sick” and debilitated from WD structures, but back then it was essentially unheard of? We certainly don’t have an over abundance of WD buildings today as compared to those in the 70’s and 80’s. BTW...I do have my speculation on the ill’s of present, I believe that mold is not all that bad (and I have my reasons to believe this), and I do believe other biologicals (e.g., bacteria) contribute to the problems within our dwelling units. This said, if WD buildings are really, really bad.....where are all the bodies? For what it is worth.... I understand your frustration. However, I do not know the toxicologist you have spoken with. However, the literature is full of information regarding upper and lower respiratory tract morbidity (not death and bodies), but morbidity. There are also some individuals (not all) who have genetic polymorphism that makes the more sensitive. For example, individuals with GSTM1 null (no genes for this detox pathway) have a higher risk to the cancer causing aflatoxin B1. There certain HLA phenotypes that lend to greater risk for disease, not only by mold but also from bacteria. In the years I have been in this business (since about 1984) I have see two deaths of adults. However, a raised morbidity with respect to upper and lower respiratory morbidity. Water-damage building and its toxins (VOCs, MVOCS, fungi and their toxins, bacteria and their toxins, make for soup that has a variety of different impacts. Finally, I taught at one time at U. of Colorado and at UCLA school of medicines. I can personally attest to the fact that environmental medicine has always had a back seat to the standard medical curriculum. It is better today, but still lacks. I have also spoken with many of the ill (morbidity not bodies) in water damage homes, buildings, schools and hospitals. Not all are ill, but a number do developed chronic morbidity with multiple symptoms. A good example as I put on this forum was my experience with the EPA building in D.C. 120 individuals were allowed to work at home because they could not tolerate the building. Many of the others had upper and lower respiratory symptoms that were not serious enough to keep them at home. The other problem is public cost. Below are some papers on these subjects, particularly morbidity. A sick worker is not as efficient as a healthy one. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19076249 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15500636 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17542835 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15500636 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18177298 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21196349 Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D. Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist www.drthrasher.org toxicologist1@... <mailto:toxicologist1%40msn.com> Cell: Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC Trauma Specialist sandracrawley@... <mailto:sandracrawley%40msn.com> - Cell This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance. Re: CIH Bashing & Ethics > > > > Wane, others, > > This discussion has troubled me for some time. It actually is a mere > > summary > > of the problem throughout our industry, ney, our society. > > It concerns expertise and ability. > > I am not an engineer, neither trained nor schooled nor accredited. > > How is it then that I often can provide solutions that are from the > > realm > > of > > the " engineer " . How is it that I can find and prove flaws in engineer's > > reports or opinion? > > I have experience, knowledge of the basics, knowledge of the specifics, > > and > > > > am intelligent. > > As are many others. The civil engineer who solves a health issue, the > > medical doctor who solves an engineering problem. > > It doesn't require credentialed or Labeled expertise to solve a problem. > > Of course, the argument gets difficult when I am the one confronted with > > someone not of my ilk claiming to know better than I! The easy thing to > > do > > is simply prove them wrong. > > The real problem is the arrogance, the audacity, the pretense, of those > > who > > > > merely claim to know what they are talking about! > > Those are the people that are the true problem, they are the ones > > confusing > > > > the public. > > How does one find the truth? By accreditation? by label? by schooling? > > by > > initials after a last name? > > > > > > > > > > -- > Sincerely, > Bob Hawley, CEICC, CIEC, CMC, CMCA, CSDS, CMRS, CETC, CSL (MA), ADI-II > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Environmental AirTechs > IAQ Consulting/Investigations Dept. > Southwick Massachusetts 01077 > email: Bob@... > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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